Jason McCue: Terrorism is a failed brand

48,167 views ・ 2012-10-03

TED


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00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
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翻译人员: Rui Liao 校对人员: Karen SONG
00:15
We most certainly do talk to terrorists, no question about it.
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毫无疑问,我们的确要与恐怖分子对话。
00:20
We are at war with a new form of terrorism.
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我们现在正在与一种新型恐怖主义作战。
00:26
It's sort of the good old, traditional form of terrorism,
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有点类似于传统恐怖主义的形式,
00:30
but it's sort of been packaged for the 21st century.
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但又裹着21世纪的新包装。
00:33
One of the big things about countering terrorism
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反恐的一大问题是
00:37
is, how do you perceive it?
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你怎样看待恐怖主义
00:41
Because perception leads to your response to it.
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因为观感决定了你的应对方式
00:44
So if you have a traditional perception of terrorism,
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因此如果你以传统的视角来看待恐怖主义
00:48
it would be that it's one of criminality, one of war.
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那恐怖主义就是犯罪,就是战争
00:52
So how are you going to respond to it?
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如果是这样,你会如何应对?
00:54
Naturally, it would follow that you meet kind with kind.
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很自然的,你会以牙还牙
00:58
You fight it. If you have a more modernist approach,
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你会与恐怖主义斗争。但如果你持一种更现代一点的方式
01:01
and your perception of terrorism is almost cause-and-effect,
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认为它几乎是一种因果效应
01:06
then naturally from that, the responses that come out of it
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那你的应对就自然不会那么
01:10
are much more asymmetrical.
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针锋相对
01:13
We live in a modern, global world.
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我们生活在现代化、全球化的时代里
01:17
Terrorists have actually adapted to it.
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实际上恐怖主义分子已经适应了这个时代
01:21
It's something we have to, too, and that means the people
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我们也应该去适应,这意味着那些
01:25
who are working on counterterrorism responses
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效力于反恐领域的人
01:28
have to start, in effect, putting on
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不得不开始,确切地说,戴上
01:31
their Google-tinted glasses, or whatever.
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谷歌眼镜之类的东西。
01:35
For my part, what I wanted us to do was just to look at
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而我的论点,我想要大家做的只是
01:40
terrorism as though it was a global brand,
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将恐怖主义看做一个全球性的品牌
01:43
say, Coca-Cola.
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比如,可口可乐
01:45
Both are fairly bad for your health. (Laughter)
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都对你的健康没什么好处(笑声)
01:51
If you look at it as a brand in those ways,
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如果你把它看成一个品牌
01:55
what you'll come to realize is, it's a pretty flawed product.
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你就会发现这产品是有缺陷的
01:58
As we've said, it's pretty bad for your health,
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就像我们刚说到的,他对你的健康有害
02:01
it's bad for those who it affects,
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对受它影响的人也有害
02:03
and it's not actually good if you're a suicide bomber either.
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当然,自己去做人体炸弹也没什么好处
02:06
It doesn't actually do what it says on the tin.
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它通常言行不一
02:10
You're not really going to get 72 virgins in heaven.
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你死后到了天堂,不会有72个处女等着你
02:15
It's not going to happen, I don't think.
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这不会发生,我认为不会
02:17
And you're not really going to, in the '80s, end capitalism
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当然,在80年代,你也不会真的去终结资本主义
02:21
by supporting one of these groups. It's a load of nonsense.
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通过支持这些组织,这纯属胡说
02:24
But what you realize, it's got an Achilles' heel.
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你要知道,恐怖主义有“阿基里斯的脚踝”
02:28
The brand has an Achilles' heel.
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即是说,这个品牌具有致命缺陷
02:30
We've mentioned the health,
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我们刚刚已经提及了它危害健康
02:32
but it needs consumers to buy into it.
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但它也需要消费者
02:36
The consumers it needs are the terrorist constituency.
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它需要的消费者就是恐怖主义的信徒
02:40
They're the people who buy into the brand, support them,
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他们相信,并且支持这个品牌
02:43
facilitate them, and they're the people
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他们会推动这个品牌的发展,而这些人
02:46
we've got to reach out to.
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就是我们要去接触的人
02:48
We've got to attack that brand in front of them.
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我们需要在他们面前打垮这个品牌
02:51
There's two essential ways of doing that, if we carry on this brand theme.
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如果继续刚才的品牌话题,我们有两个途径来击垮它
02:55
One is reducing their market. What I mean is,
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一是缩小其市场,也就是说
02:59
it's their brand against our brand. We've got to compete.
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拿我们自己的品牌和他们竞争
03:04
We've got to show we're a better product.
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我们必须告诉消费者我们的产品更好
03:06
If I'm trying to show we're a better product,
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如果我想让人们相信我的产品更好
03:09
I probably wouldn't do things like Guantanamo Bay.
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那么我就不会做出像关塔那摩虐囚事件那样(过分的事)
03:14
We've talked there about curtailing the underlying need
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我们已经讨论了削减对产品的潜在需求
03:18
for the product itself. You could be looking there at
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你也许已经注意到
03:21
poverty, injustice, all those sorts of things
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贫穷、社会不公之类的问题
03:25
which feed terrorism.
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是有益于恐怖主义繁衍的
03:26
The other thing to do is to knock the product,
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另一个途径就是打击产品本身
03:30
attack the brand myth, as we've said.
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就像我们所说的,打破品牌神话
03:32
You know, there's nothing heroic about killing a young kid.
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众所周知,杀害儿童不是英雄该做的事
03:36
Perhaps we need to focus on that and get that message back across.
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也许我们该关注这些事,并且把消息告诉人们
03:40
We've got to reveal the dangers in the product.
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我们必须揭露这种产品的危害
03:43
Our target audience, it's not just the producers of terrorism,
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我们的对象,不应该仅仅是恐怖主义的制造者
03:47
as I've said, the terrorists.
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也就是那些恐怖分子
03:48
It's not just the marketeers of terrorism,
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也不应仅仅是恐怖主义的推崇者
03:51
which is those who finance, those who facilitate it,
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也就是那些赞助恐怖主义,为其提供便利的人
03:55
but it's the consumers of terrorism.
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而应包含恐怖主义的受众
03:57
We've got to get in to those homelands.
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我们要进入恐怖主义滋生的地方
04:01
That's where they recruit from. That's where they get their power and strength.
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在这些地方,恐怖主义招揽信徒,不断壮大
04:04
That's where their consumers come from.
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这就是他们发展消费者的地方
04:06
And we have to get our messaging in there.
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我们必须给这些地方带去我们的信息
04:10
So the essentials are, we've got to have interaction
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所以,关键就是在这些地方展开互动
04:14
in those areas, with the terrorists, the facilitators, etc.
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和恐怖主义分子,和恐怖主义的支持者等进行接触
04:17
We've got to engage, we've got to educate,
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我们要做的就是接触、教育
04:21
and we've got to have dialogue.
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和人们展开对话
04:23
Now, staying on this brand thing for just a few more seconds,
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现在让我们继续将恐怖主义看成一个品牌
04:28
think about delivery mechanisms.
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想想他们的传播机制
04:31
How are we going to do these attacks?
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我们该怎样应对恐怖主义袭击呢?
04:32
Well, reducing the market is really one for governments
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当然,政府和公民都应参与来缩小恐怖主义的市场
04:35
and civil society. We've got to show we're better.
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我们必须向人们展示我们的产品更好
04:39
We've got to show our values.
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我们要传播自己的价值观
04:43
We've got to practice what we preach.
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我们必须言行一致
04:45
But when it comes to knocking the brand,
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但说到打击品牌自身
04:47
if the terrorists are Coca-Cola and we're Pepsi,
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如果恐怖主义是可口可乐,我们自己是百事的话
04:52
I don't think, being Pepsi, anything we say about Coca-Cola,
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那我们对于可口可乐的指责
04:56
anyone's going to believe us.
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基本上没人会信
04:58
So we've got to find a different mechanism,
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所以我们必须找到一种新的机制
05:00
and one of the best mechanisms I've ever come across
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而我见过最好的媒介
05:02
is the victims of terrorism.
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就是恐怖主义的受害者
05:05
They are somebody who can actually stand there and say,
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他们可以理直气壮的告诉人们
05:08
"This product's crap. I had it and I was sick for days.
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“这产品烂透了,我用了之后,病了好几天”
05:12
It burnt my hand, whatever." You believe them.
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“我的手被烧伤了”,人们就会信
05:16
You can see their scars. You trust them.
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人们可以看见他们的伤疤,会信任他们
05:19
But whether it's victims, whether it's governments,
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但不论是通过受害者、政府,
05:24
NGOs, or even the Queen yesterday, in Northern Ireland,
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还是非政府组织,甚至是昨天在北爱尔兰的女王陛下
05:29
we have to interact and engage with those different
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我们都必须接触所有和恐怖主义
05:34
layers of terrorism, and, in effect,
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有关的人,说实话
05:38
we do have to have a little dance with the devil.
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我们是得与狼共舞
05:42
This is my favorite part of my speech.
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下面到了我最喜欢的部分了
05:45
I wanted to blow you all up to try and make a point,
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我原来想把大家都炸飞,来阐释我的观点
05:48
but — (Laughter) —
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但是…(笑声)
05:52
TED, for health and safety reasons, have told me
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TED告诉我说考虑到健康安全因素
05:55
I've got to do a countdown, so
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我必须先倒数计时
05:56
I feel like a bit of an Irish or Jewish terrorist,
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所以我觉得自己像个爱尔兰或者是犹太恐怖主义分子
06:00
sort of a health and safety terrorist, and I — (Laughter) —
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一个注重健康安全的恐怖主义分子…(笑声)
06:05
I've got to count 3, 2, 1, and
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我必须先数3,2,1
06:08
it's a bit alarming, so thinking of what my motto would be,
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声音会有点响,所以我觉得我的宣言该是
06:12
and it would be, "Body parts, not heart attacks."
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“炸死而非吓死”
06:15
So 3, 2, 1. (Explosion sound)
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3,2,1(爆炸声)
06:20
Very good. (Laughter)
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很好(笑声)
06:25
Now, lady in 15J was a suicide bomber amongst us all.
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现在,假设坐在15J的女士是恐怖主义分子
06:33
We're all victims of terrorism.
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我们都是受害者
06:35
There's 625 of us in this room. We're going to be scarred for life.
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屋里有625个人,我们一辈子都会带有各种伤痕
06:40
There was a father and a son who sat in that seat over there.
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有一对父子坐在那边
06:44
The son's dead. The father lives.
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儿子死了,父亲还活着
06:46
The father will probably kick himself for years to come
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父亲很可能会自责好几年
06:52
that he didn't take that seat instead of his kid.
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怪自己让儿子坐在那个位子上
06:57
He's going to take to alcohol, and he's probably
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他会开始酗酒,很可能
06:59
going to kill himself in three years. That's the stats.
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3年内就自杀,这是统计结果
07:03
There's a very young, attractive lady over here,
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有位年轻迷人的女士
07:07
and she has something which I think's the worst form
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她受的伤是我见过自杀式爆炸导致的
07:10
of psychological, physical injury I've ever seen
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最严重的心理和生理伤害
07:13
out of a suicide bombing: It's human shrapnel.
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叫做人体弹片
07:16
What it means is, when she sat in a restaurant
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也就是说,她在今后10年,15年
07:18
in years to come, 10 years to come, 15 years to come,
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坐在一家餐馆里
07:21
or she's on the beach, every so often she's going to start
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或是是坐在沙滩上的时候,她会开始
07:24
rubbing her skin, and out of there will come
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摩擦自己的皮肤,然后发现
07:27
a piece of that shrapnel.
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有零星的弹片出现
07:29
And that is a hard thing for the head to take.
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这是件让人难以接受的事
07:34
There's a lady over there as well who lost her legs
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另一位女士在爆炸中
07:37
in this bombing.
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失去了双腿
07:41
She's going to find out that she gets a pitiful amount
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她会发现自己只能得到
07:45
of money off our government
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政府为这起爆炸事件
07:49
for looking after what's happened to her.
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支付的微薄的赔偿金
07:52
She had a daughter who was going to go to one of the best
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她的女儿本可以上最好的大学
07:54
universities. She's going to give up university
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而现在却不得不
07:57
to look after Mum.
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留在家里照顾母亲
08:01
We're all here, and all of those who watch it
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我们都经历了爆炸事件,还有所有看到事件发生的人
08:03
are going to be traumatized by this event,
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都会受到创伤
08:06
but all of you here who are victims are going to learn
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但你们,也就是所有受害者不得不
08:09
some hard truths.
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接受一个残酷的事实
08:11
That is, our society, we sympathize, but after a while,
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那就是,我们的社会一开始会同情受害者,但不久后
08:15
we start to ignore. We don't do enough as a society.
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我们就会遗忘他们,社会是无情的
08:19
We do not look after our victims, and we do not enable them,
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我们不会照顾受害者,赋予他们应得的权利
08:23
and what I'm going to try and show is that actually,
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但我想要说的是,其实
08:26
victims are the best weapon we have
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受害者是我们拥有的
08:29
against more terrorism.
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最好的反恐武器
08:32
How would the government at the turn of the millennium
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政府从21世纪伊始到今天
08:36
approach today? Well, we all know.
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是怎么做的?我们都知道
08:38
What they'd have done then is an invasion.
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政府选择了入侵
08:41
If the suicide bomber was from Wales,
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如果自杀式炸弹来自威尔士
08:44
good luck to Wales, I'd say.
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那我只能说,祝你好运,威尔士
08:46
Knee-jerk legislation, emergency provision legislation --
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膝跳反应法案、应急法案
08:50
which hits at the very basis of our society, as we all know --
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打击了我们社会的基础,众所周知
08:54
it's a mistake.
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就是个错误
08:57
We're going to drive prejudice throughout Edinburgh,
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我们正让偏见蔓延整个爱丁堡
09:00
throughout the U.K., for Welsh people.
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对威尔士人来说,偏见存在于整个英国
09:05
Today's approach, governments have learned from their mistakes.
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现在的办法是,政府从中吸取教训
09:11
They are looking at what I've started off on,
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他们开始研究我一开始提出的那种方法
09:13
on these more asymmetrical approaches to it,
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用这些非对称的方法去应对
09:16
more modernist views, cause and effect.
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以更现代的视角,去研究因果关系
09:19
But mistakes of the past are inevitable.
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但是过去的错误是不可避免的
09:22
It's human nature.
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这是人性使然
09:23
The fear and the pressure to do something on them
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在做这些事所背负的恐惧和压力
09:27
is going to be immense. They are going to make mistakes.
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是巨大的,他们会犯错
09:29
They're not just going to be smart.
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他们就是无法变聪明
09:33
There was a famous Irish terrorist who once summed up
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曾有个著名的爱尔兰恐怖分子
09:36
the point very beautifully. He said,
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总结的很恰当。他说,
09:39
"The thing is, about the British government, is, is that it's got
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“对于英国政府而言,他们必须一直幸运
09:41
to be lucky all the time, and we only have to be lucky once."
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而我们只要时来运转一次就够了”
09:46
So what we need to do is we have to effect it.
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所以我们要做的是去影响它
09:49
We've got to start thinking about being more proactive.
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我们应该试着更具前瞻性
09:52
We need to build an arsenal of noncombative weapons
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我们需要建造非爆炸性的武器
09:57
in this war on terrorism.
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用于反恐的斗争
09:58
But of course, it's ideas -- is not something that governments do very well.
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当然,这只是一些想法——而非政府擅长的常规做法
10:07
I want to go back just to before the bang, to this idea of
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我转回来谈谈刚才弄出爆炸之前那些关于品牌的想法
10:11
brand, and I was talking about Coke and Pepsi, etc.
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我说起了可口可乐和百事可乐之类的事情
10:15
We see it as terrorism versus democracy in that brand war.
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我们将恐怖主义和民主的对垒看成品牌之战
10:19
They'll see it as freedom fighters and truth
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恐怖分子却认为是自由主义斗士与真相
10:21
against injustice, imperialism, etc.
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打击不公正和帝国主义的范畴
10:28
We do have to see this as a deadly battlefield.
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我们确实该将这看成殊死搏斗的战场
10:32
It's not just [our] flesh and blood they want.
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恐怖分子不仅仅想要我们的血肉
10:35
They actually want our cultural souls, and that's why
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他们事实上想要我们的文化之魂,这也是为什么
10:38
the brand analogy is a very interesting way of looking at this.
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品牌的类比是看待这问题的一个新颖的方式
10:42
If we look at al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was essentially
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我们来看看基地组织,他一开始仅仅是
10:47
a product on a shelf in a souk somewhere
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(穆斯林国家的)露天市场里某个货架上
10:51
which not many people had heard of.
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不太有人问津的产品
10:54
9/11 launched it. It was its big marketing day,
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911袭击发生时,就是它最好的市场活动日
10:58
and it was packaged for the 21st century. They knew what they were doing.
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他们也为21世纪做了新包装,他们知道自己在做什么
11:03
They were effectively [doing] something in this brand image
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他们在品牌形象上做了一些卓有成效的事
11:06
of creating a brand which can be franchised around
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即创造了能在全球授权的品牌
11:10
the world, where there's poverty, ignorance and injustice.
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在那些贫穷、愚昧和不公正的地方
11:15
We, as I've said, have got to hit that market,
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正如我说过的,我们应该打击那个市场
11:19
but we've got to use our heads rather than our might.
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但是我们应该运用我们的头脑而不是气力
11:23
If we perceive it in this way as a brand, or other ways of thinking at it like this,
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若我们将之看做品牌,或以其他类似的方式看待
11:27
we will not resolve or counter terrorism.
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我们将不会严厉打击恐怖主义而造成完全对峙
11:31
What I'd like to do is just briefly go through a few examples
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我要简单回顾一些例子
11:34
from my work on areas where we try and approach these things differently.
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这些例子都来自我的工作领域,我们试图用不一样的方式处理问题
11:40
The first one has been dubbed "lawfare,"
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第一个例子被叫做“法律费”
11:44
for want of a better word.
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是想使用一个更好的词
11:46
When we originally looked at bringing civil actions against terrorists,
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当我们最初对恐怖分子采取民事诉讼时
11:50
everyone thought we were a bit mad and mavericks
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每个人都认为我们疯了或者误入歧途了
11:53
and crackpots. Now it's got a title. Everyone's doing it.
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现在师出有名,大家都在这么做
11:56
There's a bomb, people start suing.
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哪有炸弹,人们就会控诉
11:58
But one of the first early cases on this was the Omagh Bombing.
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但是其中最早的例子是奥马炸弹事件
12:02
A civil action was brought from 1998.
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从1998年民事诉讼被引进
12:05
In Omagh, bomb went off, Real IRA,
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在奥马,炸弹被引爆, 真爱尔兰共和军
12:09
middle of a peace process.
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处于和谈过程中
12:11
That meant that the culprits couldn't really be prosecuted
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这意味着罪犯不可能真的被起诉
12:15
for lots of reasons, mostly to do with the peace process
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因为一系列原因,大部分与和平进程
12:18
and what was going on, the greater good.
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和正在发生的事有关,为了更大的利益
12:21
It also meant, then, if you can imagine this,
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这也意味着,如果你能想象
12:23
that the people who bombed your children
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那个炸死你孩子
12:25
and your husbands were walking around the supermarket
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和丈夫的人正在逛商场
12:31
that you lived in.
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而你就住在里面
12:32
Some of those victims said enough is enough.
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其中一些受害者说够了够了
12:36
We brought a private action, and thank God, 10 years later,
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谢天谢地,在10年后我们引入了私人诉讼,
12:40
we actually won it. There is a slight appeal on
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实际上我们也赢了,目前也有些不起眼的呼吁
12:42
at the moment so I have to be a bit careful,
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所以我要特别小心谨慎
12:44
but I'm fairly confident.
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但也相当自信
12:46
Why was it effective?
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为什么诉讼是有效的?
12:48
It was effective not just because justice was seen to be done
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它有效不仅仅因为正义
12:50
where there was a huge void.
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在那些的法外之地被伸张
12:52
It was because the Real IRA and other terrorist groups,
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也因为真爱尔兰共和军和其他恐怖组织
12:57
their whole strength is from the fact that they are
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他们所有的力量都来自于他们是弱势群体这个事实
12:59
an underdog. When we put the victims as the underdog
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当我们把恐怖袭击的受害者作为弱势群体
13:04
and flipped it, they didn't know what to do.
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轻轻掷出这张牌,他们就不知所措了
13:07
They were embarrassed. Their recruitment went down.
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他们很尴尬,继而就招不到人
13:11
The bombs actually stopped -- fact -- because of this action.
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而且因为这些措施,恐怖袭击事实上也停止了
13:15
We became, or those victims became, more importantly,
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我们,或者说这些受害者
13:19
a ghost that haunted the terrorist organization.
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成了这些恐怖组织无法摆脱的冤魂
13:23
There's other examples. We have a case called Almog
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再举另外一个我们称之为阿尔莫哥的案例
13:26
which is to do with a bank that was,
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有一家银行
13:30
allegedly, from our point of view,
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从我们的角度来看
13:33
giving rewards to suicide bombers.
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据称为那些自杀式炸弹袭击者提供奖励
13:37
Just by bringing the very action,
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只是揭发了这项行为
13:40
that bank has stopped doing it, and indeed,
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那家银行就已不再继续
13:42
the powers that be around the world, which for real politic
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这种力量在全球确实存在,而之前由于一些纯粹的政治原因,
13:45
reasons before, couldn't actually deal with this issue,
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我们无法真正切实地解决问题
13:48
because there was lots of competing interests,
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由于其中有太多的利益纷争
13:50
have actually closed down those loopholes in the banking system.
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事实上已经在堵住了银行系统的这个漏洞
13:53
There's another case called the McDonald case,
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有另一个叫麦克唐纳的案例
13:55
where some victims of Semtex, of the Provisional IRA bombings,
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在塞姆汀塑胶炸药,爱尔兰共和军的临时炸药的受害者中,
14:00
which were supplied by Gaddafi, sued,
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它是由卡扎菲提供的
14:06
and that action has led to amazing things for new Libya.
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那些行动导致新利比亚发生了令人震惊的事
14:11
New Libya has been compassionate towards those victims,
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新利比亚现在很同情这些受害者
14:14
and started taking it -- so it started a whole new dialogue there.
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也开始接受他们,所以这开启了新的对话
14:18
But the problem is, we need more and more support
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但是问题是,我们需要更多地去支持
14:22
for these ideas and cases.
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这些想法和案例
14:25
Civil affairs and civil society initiatives.
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民族事务和国内社会动议
14:29
A good one is in Somalia. There's a war on piracy.
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一个好例子是索马里对海盗的战争
14:32
If anyone thinks you can have a war on piracy
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如果有人认为能向海盗宣战
14:34
like a war on terrorism and beat it, you're wrong.
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就像向恐怖主义宣战并夺取胜利那样,你就错了
14:36
What we're trying to do there is turn pirates to fisherman.
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我们想做的是把海盗变成渔民
14:39
They used to be fisherman, of course,
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当然,他们曾经都是渔民
14:42
but we stole their fish and dumped a load of toxic waste
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但是我们偷走了他们的鱼,还向海里倾倒了大量有毒废料
14:45
in their water, so what we're trying to do is create
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所以我们现在尝试去创造安全环境和就业机会
14:48
security and employment by bringing a coastguard
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方式是通过海岸警卫队来配合渔业
14:50
along with the fisheries industry, and I can guarantee you,
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我可以向你们保证
14:54
as that builds, al Shabaab and such likes will not have
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如果上述系统能够建立成功,青年党这类的组织
14:57
the poverty and injustice any longer to prey on those people.
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就不再能够招罗那些穷人和饱受不公待遇的人
15:01
These initiatives cost less than a missile,
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这些方案的成本比发射一个导弹要低
15:04
and certainly less than any soldier's life,
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代价也远远不像士兵的生命那样高昂
15:07
but more importantly, it takes the war to their homelands,
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更重要的是,这样战争就能滚回自己的老家
15:10
and not onto our shore,
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而不是发生在我们的海岸
15:13
and we're looking at the causes.
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我们正在了解其中的原因
15:14
The last one I wanted to talk about was dialogue.
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最后我想谈的是对话
15:17
The advantages of dialogue are obvious.
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对话的好处是明显的
15:20
It self-educates both sides, enables a better understanding,
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对话对双方来说都是自我教育,使互相之间产生更好的理解
15:25
reveals the strengths and weaknesses,
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揭示优势和劣势
15:27
and yes, like some of the speakers before,
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当然,就像之前的一些讲者提及的
15:29
the shared vulnerability does lead to trust, and
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共同的脆弱能带来信任
15:33
it does then become, that process, part of normalization.
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这个过程之后就能演变成常态
15:36
But it's not an easy road. After the bomb,
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但这并不容易,在爆炸事件之后
15:41
the victims are not into this.
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受害者并不热衷于参与抗议
15:44
There's practical problems.
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这里有一些实际问题
15:46
It's politically risky for the protagonists
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这对主角和对话者来说都具有政治风险
15:49
and for the interlocutors. On one occasion
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某一次我正亲身实践
15:51
I was doing it, every time I did a point that they didn't like,
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当我做的事是他们不喜欢的
15:54
they actually threw stones at me,
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他们就猛烈攻击我
15:56
and when I did a point they liked,
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而当我做的事是他们喜欢的
15:58
they starting shooting in the air, equally not great. (Laughter)
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他们就朝天开枪,同样也不好(笑声)
16:02
Whatever the point, it gets to the heart of the problem,
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无论做到哪一步,接触到问题的核心
16:06
you're doing it, you're talking to them.
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你正在努力,你在和他们对话
16:08
Now, I just want to end with saying, if we follow reason,
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现在我即将结束演讲,如果我们去寻找原因
16:11
we realize that I think we'd all say that we want to
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我们意识到我们要
16:17
have a perception of terrorism which is not just a pure
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对恐怖主义有新的认知
16:19
military perception of it.
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它不仅仅是一个军事问题
16:23
We need to foster more
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我们需要发展更多
16:26
modern and asymmetrical responses to it.
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现代和非对称的方式去回应
16:28
This isn't about being soft on terrorism.
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这并不是对恐怖主义软弱
16:31
It's about fighting them on contemporary battlefields.
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这是在当代的战场上和他们斗争
16:35
We must foster innovation, as I've said.
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正如我说的,我们必须鼓励创新
16:38
Governments are receptive. It won't come from those dusty corridors.
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政府会接受的,它并不来自肮脏的角落
16:42
The private sector has a role.
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私人部门也有自己的作用
16:44
The role we could do right now is going away
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我们所起的作用就是现在不要走开
16:46
and looking at how we can support victims around the world
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然后看看我们能如何帮助那些世界范围内的受害者
16:50
to bring initiatives.
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更加主动地去(帮助他们)
16:52
If I was to leave you with some big questions here which
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如果我打算留给你们一些重要的问题
16:54
may change one's perception to it, and who knows what
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这问题会改变一个人的看法,谁知道
16:58
thoughts and responses will come out of it,
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会有什么想法和应对措施会被提出
17:00
but did myself and my terrorist group actually need
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但是我自己和我的恐怖分子小组实际上需要
17:04
to blow you up to make our point?
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把你们炸飞以达到我们的目的吗?
17:07
We have to ask ourselves these questions, however unpalatable.
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我们需要问我们自己这些问题,虽然这会不好受
17:12
Have we been ignoring an injustice or a humanitarian
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我们是不是忽略了不公正
17:15
struggle somewhere in the world?
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或是世界某处的人道主义斗争?
17:18
What if, actually, engagement on poverty and injustice
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如果,对贫困和不公正的关注
17:20
is exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do?
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正是恐怖分子想让我们做的?
17:23
What if the bombs are just simply wake-up calls for us?
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如果炸弹只是想把我们叫醒?
17:26
What happens if that bomb went off
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如果炸弹爆炸了又怎样?
17:29
because we didn't have any thoughts and things in place
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因为我们没有想法,也没有措施
17:32
to allow dialogue to deal with these things and interaction?
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来用对话和互动去应对(贫穷和不公正)
17:37
What is definitely uncontroversial
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毫无疑问的是
17:40
is that, as I've said, we've got to stop being reactive,
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正如我说过的,我们应当停止单纯的回击
17:42
and more proactive, and I just want to leave you
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而应更具主动性
17:46
with one idea, which is that
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我想让你们记住一个观点
17:49
it's a provocative question for you to think about,
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对你们来说,这是个挑战性的问题
17:52
and the answer will require sympathy with the devil.
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答案需要我们对魔鬼也抱有同情
17:56
It's a question that's been tackled by many great thinkers
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这是个许多伟大的思想家和作家都苦苦思索过的问题
17:59
and writers: What if society actually needs crisis to change?
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社会是否真的需要大难临头才能改变?
18:04
What if society actually needs terrorism
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社会是否真的需要恐怖主义
18:08
to change and adapt for the better?
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才能变得更好?
18:10
It's those Bulgakov themes, it's that picture of Jesus
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这是布尔加科夫的主题
18:14
and the Devil hand in hand in Gethsemane
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这是耶稣和魔鬼在客西马尼(蒙难地)的月光下
18:18
walking into the moonlight.
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携手前行的景象
18:20
What it would mean is that humans,
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这就意味着
18:23
in order to survive in development,
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人类为了在发展中生存
18:25
quite Darwinian spirit here,
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体现了达尔文的精神
18:27
inherently must dance with the devil.
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生来就必须与魔鬼共舞
18:32
A lot of people say that communism was defeated
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许多人说共产主义被滚石乐队打败了
18:36
by the Rolling Stones. It's a good theory.
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这真是个好的理论
18:40
Maybe the Rolling Stones has a place in this.
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也许滚石(在反击恐怖主义方面)也有一席之地
18:43
Thank you.
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谢谢
18:45
(Music) (Applause)
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(音乐)(掌声)
18:54
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. (Applause)
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布鲁诺.邱桑尼:谢谢(掌声)
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