Jason McCue: Terrorism is a failed brand

48,167 views ・ 2012-10-03

TED


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00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
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譯者: Yu-Sheng Lin 審譯者: Anny Chung
00:15
We most certainly do talk to terrorists, no question about it.
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毫無疑問的,我們當然會與恐怖主義份子對話。
00:20
We are at war with a new form of terrorism.
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我們所對抗的,是一種新型態的恐怖主義。
00:26
It's sort of the good old, traditional form of terrorism,
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它仍然具有傳統恐怖主義的部份特性
00:30
but it's sort of been packaged for the 21st century.
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但是也具有部分的21世紀的包裝方式
00:33
One of the big things about countering terrorism
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打擊恐怖主義的最重要的事情之一
00:37
is, how do you perceive it?
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就是,你如何看待它呢?
00:41
Because perception leads to your response to it.
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因為看待它的方式,決定了你如何回應它。
00:44
So if you have a traditional perception of terrorism,
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所以,若你用傳統的角度來看恐怖主義
00:48
it would be that it's one of criminality, one of war.
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它會是一種犯罪行為,一種戰爭
00:52
So how are you going to respond to it?
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你會如何回應呢?
00:54
Naturally, it would follow that you meet kind with kind.
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很自然的,你的回應會是以牙還牙
00:58
You fight it. If you have a more modernist approach,
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跟它作戰。但若你用比較進步的角度來看待
01:01
and your perception of terrorism is almost cause-and-effect,
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恐怖主義應該更像是一種因果關係
01:06
then naturally from that, the responses that come out of it
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從這樣的角度,你所產生的回應方式
01:10
are much more asymmetrical.
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就不會是那種一報還一報的
01:13
We live in a modern, global world.
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我們生活在一個現代的、 全球化的世界。
01:17
Terrorists have actually adapted to it.
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恐怖分子其實已經做了調適
01:21
It's something we have to, too, and that means the people
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我們也應該要做調適,而這意味著那些
01:25
who are working on counterterrorism responses
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負責反恐對策工作的人
01:28
have to start, in effect, putting on
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必須開始,如同戴上
01:31
their Google-tinted glasses, or whatever.
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谷歌眼鏡之類的(以新的角度看事情的方式)
01:35
For my part, what I wanted us to do was just to look at
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對我來說,我想要的是讓我們對於恐怖主義
01:40
terrorism as though it was a global brand,
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採用全球品牌這樣的角度來看
01:43
say, Coca-Cola.
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比如說,可口可樂。
01:45
Both are fairly bad for your health. (Laughter)
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兩者都對你的健康不太好。(笑聲)
01:51
If you look at it as a brand in those ways,
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如果你用這種 品牌 的角度來看恐怖主義
01:55
what you'll come to realize is, it's a pretty flawed product.
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你應該會發現到,這是一個相當有缺陷的產品。
01:58
As we've said, it's pretty bad for your health,
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我們已經說過,它對你的健康非常不好
02:01
it's bad for those who it affects,
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對那些被它影響的人也不好
02:03
and it's not actually good if you're a suicide bomber either.
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就算是對於自殺炸彈客,也是不好的
02:06
It doesn't actually do what it says on the tin.
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它並不如它的外包裝上說的那樣
02:10
You're not really going to get 72 virgins in heaven.
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你也不會真的上了天堂,還得到72個美女
02:15
It's not going to happen, I don't think.
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這些都不會發生, 我認為不會
02:17
And you're not really going to, in the '80s, end capitalism
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就算你贊助恐怖主義組織, 這也不會如同80年代時所宣稱的
02:21
by supporting one of these groups. It's a load of nonsense.
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終結資本主義。它是一派胡言。
02:24
But what you realize, it's got an Achilles' heel.
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於是你會發現,它有一個致命弱點(阿奇里斯踵)。
02:28
The brand has an Achilles' heel.
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恐怖主義這個品牌有一個致命弱點。
02:30
We've mentioned the health,
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我們前面提到過 健康,
02:32
but it needs consumers to buy into it.
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恐怖主義需要有客戶來買單
02:36
The consumers it needs are the terrorist constituency.
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有這樣的客戶的地方,可稱為恐怖主義的選區
02:40
They're the people who buy into the brand, support them,
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這樣的選區裡的人喜歡並支持這個品牌、
02:43
facilitate them, and they're the people
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協助這個品牌。這些人也就是
02:46
we've got to reach out to.
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我們必須去接觸的目標族群。
02:48
We've got to attack that brand in front of them.
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我們必須在目標族群的面前與恐怖主義來較量
02:51
There's two essential ways of doing that, if we carry on this brand theme.
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有兩種基本的進行方式可採用,若我們從品牌的思路來看
02:55
One is reducing their market. What I mean is,
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一個是降低恐怖主義的市占率,我的意思是
02:59
it's their brand against our brand. We've got to compete.
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這是我們的品牌在對抗它們的品牌,我們要競爭
03:04
We've got to show we're a better product.
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就必須顯示我們的產品比較好。
03:06
If I'm trying to show we're a better product,
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如果我想要顯示我們的產品比較好,
03:09
I probably wouldn't do things like Guantanamo Bay.
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我應該不會做出像 關塔那摩灣 那樣的事情 (美國海軍在該基地拘留審訊恐怖嫌疑份子)
03:14
We've talked there about curtailing the underlying need
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我們所談的是 降低對產品本身的需求
03:18
for the product itself. You could be looking there at
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你可以發現到,恐怖主義的壯大,
03:21
poverty, injustice, all those sorts of things
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是因為 貧困、 不公正待遇,這些各種各樣的事件
03:25
which feed terrorism.
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的發生而滋長的。
03:26
The other thing to do is to knock the product,
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另一個進行方式是直接打擊對手的產品
03:30
attack the brand myth, as we've said.
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打破對手的品牌迷思,如同前面說過的。
03:32
You know, there's nothing heroic about killing a young kid.
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比如說,殺死一個年幼的孩子,根本算不上英勇的行為。
03:36
Perhaps we need to focus on that and get that message back across.
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也許我們需要專注於此,讓這樣的訊息傳回去
03:40
We've got to reveal the dangers in the product.
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我們必須顯示恐怖主義這個產品的危險性。
03:43
Our target audience, it's not just the producers of terrorism,
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我們的目標群眾,不只是恐怖主義的製造者,
03:47
as I've said, the terrorists.
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如我前面說過的,目標不只是恐怖分子。
03:48
It's not just the marketeers of terrorism,
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也不只是恐怖主義的宣傳人員
03:51
which is those who finance, those who facilitate it,
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不只是這些資助並培養恐怖主義的人
03:55
but it's the consumers of terrorism.
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而應該把目標擴及恐怖主義的消費者。
03:57
We've got to get in to those homelands.
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我們必須去到那些消費者的家鄉。
04:01
That's where they recruit from. That's where they get their power and strength.
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那是他們招募的地方,也是他們得到權勢與力量的地方
04:04
That's where their consumers come from.
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也就是他們的消費者所來自的地方。
04:06
And we have to get our messaging in there.
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我們必須讓我們的訊息傳到那裏去。
04:10
So the essentials are, we've got to have interaction
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所以從根本來說,我們必需在那些地區,
04:14
in those areas, with the terrorists, the facilitators, etc.
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與恐怖分子、贊助者......等等,進行互動。
04:17
We've got to engage, we've got to educate,
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我們必須投入,我們必須去教育,
04:21
and we've got to have dialogue.
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而且我們必須去對話。
04:23
Now, staying on this brand thing for just a few more seconds,
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現在,再花一點時間談品牌這回事
04:28
think about delivery mechanisms.
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想想進行傳達的機制。
04:31
How are we going to do these attacks?
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我們該如何進行這些攻擊?
04:32
Well, reducing the market is really one for governments
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嗯,減少市占率是可行的方式之一。
04:35
and civil society. We've got to show we're better.
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政府和文明社會必須顯示我們是更好的選擇。
04:39
We've got to show our values.
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我們必須顯示我們的價值觀。
04:43
We've got to practice what we preach.
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我們必須身體力行。
04:45
But when it comes to knocking the brand,
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當談論到打擊品牌這件事的時候
04:47
if the terrorists are Coca-Cola and we're Pepsi,
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如果恐怖分子是可口可樂,而我們是百事可樂,
04:52
I don't think, being Pepsi, anything we say about Coca-Cola,
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我不認為,身為百事可樂,我們說的任何關於可口可樂的話
04:56
anyone's going to believe us.
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會有人來相信
04:58
So we've got to find a different mechanism,
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所以我們必須找一個不同的機制,
05:00
and one of the best mechanisms I've ever come across
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我所看過的最好的機制中的一個
05:02
is the victims of terrorism.
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就是恐怖主義的受害者。
05:05
They are somebody who can actually stand there and say,
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如果有一個人可以真正站在那裡,說,
05:08
"This product's crap. I had it and I was sick for days.
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"本產品真的很爛。我用了它結果病了好些天
05:12
It burnt my hand, whatever." You believe them.
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它燒傷了我的手,諸如此類的"。你會相信他們。
05:16
You can see their scars. You trust them.
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你可以看到他們的傷疤。你會相信他們。
05:19
But whether it's victims, whether it's governments,
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但不管是受害者,也不管是政府、
05:24
NGOs, or even the Queen yesterday, in Northern Ireland,
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非政府組織、或甚是英國女王昨天在北愛爾蘭,
05:29
we have to interact and engage with those different
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我們都是需要進行互動,並與這些不同層次的
05:34
layers of terrorism, and, in effect,
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恐怖主義,建立有效的接觸
05:38
we do have to have a little dance with the devil.
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我們的確需要與魔鬼跳支小舞。
05:42
This is my favorite part of my speech.
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這是我的演講裡我最喜歡的部分
05:45
I wanted to blow you all up to try and make a point,
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我曾想要把你們大家都炸上天來表達我的立場
05:48
but — (Laughter) —
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但是 — — (笑聲) — —
05:52
TED, for health and safety reasons, have told me
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TED,基於健康和安全方面的考慮,已經告訴我
05:55
I've got to do a countdown, so
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我必須要倒數計時
05:56
I feel like a bit of an Irish or Jewish terrorist,
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我感覺好像有點愛爾蘭或猶太人的恐怖分子的樣子,
06:00
sort of a health and safety terrorist, and I — (Laughter) —
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有點像是健康和安全的恐怖分子,而且我 — — (笑聲) — —
06:05
I've got to count 3, 2, 1, and
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我想要倒數 3、2、1,而且
06:08
it's a bit alarming, so thinking of what my motto would be,
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這有點令人震驚,順便想想我要喊什麼樣的口號,
06:12
and it would be, "Body parts, not heart attacks."
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可能會是 "身體分開了,不是心臟病發。"
06:15
So 3, 2, 1. (Explosion sound)
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所以 3、 2、 1。(爆炸聲)
06:20
Very good. (Laughter)
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非常好。(笑聲)
06:25
Now, lady in 15J was a suicide bomber amongst us all.
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現在,坐在 15J 的女士是藏身我們之中的一個自殺炸彈客。
06:33
We're all victims of terrorism.
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我們都變成了恐怖主義的受害者。
06:35
There's 625 of us in this room. We're going to be scarred for life.
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這房間裡有625個人,每個人都會終身帶著傷疤
06:40
There was a father and a son who sat in that seat over there.
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有一位父親和兒子坐在那邊的座位。
06:44
The son's dead. The father lives.
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兒子死了。父親活了下來。
06:46
The father will probably kick himself for years to come
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父親在往後的歲月中會自責
06:52
that he didn't take that seat instead of his kid.
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為什麼他坐的不是他的兒子的位置
06:57
He's going to take to alcohol, and he's probably
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他可能會開始喝酒,他大概
06:59
going to kill himself in three years. That's the stats.
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會在三年內自殺。這是統計出來的數據。
07:03
There's a very young, attractive lady over here,
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在那裡,有一個很年輕貌美的女人
07:07
and she has something which I think's the worst form
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爆炸對她帶來的結果,會是我認為由自殺爆炸造成的
07:10
of psychological, physical injury I've ever seen
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我所見過最糟糕的心理與
07:13
out of a suicide bombing: It's human shrapnel.
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身體上的損傷: 所謂的霰彈片人。
07:16
What it means is, when she sat in a restaurant
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這個意思是,當她坐在一家餐館
07:18
in years to come, 10 years to come, 15 years to come,
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在未來的年頭,10 年,15 年,
07:21
or she's on the beach, every so often she's going to start
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或者她是在沙灘上,每隔一陣子她就會開始
07:24
rubbing her skin, and out of there will come
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揉她的皮膚,然後就會掉出來
07:27
a piece of that shrapnel.
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一片的霰彈片。
07:29
And that is a hard thing for the head to take.
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這對理智來說,是件很難接受的事情
07:34
There's a lady over there as well who lost her legs
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有位女士在那邊,在這次爆炸事件中
07:37
in this bombing.
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也失去了她的雙腿。
07:41
She's going to find out that she gets a pitiful amount
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她將會發現,她會得到一筆少的可憐
07:45
of money off our government
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的金錢,從我們的政府發給她的
07:49
for looking after what's happened to her.
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來照顧她所遭遇的事件後的生活。
07:52
She had a daughter who was going to go to one of the best
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她有一個女兒原本打算去就讀一所最好的大學
07:54
universities. She's going to give up university
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這個女兒打算放棄大學
07:57
to look after Mum.
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來照顧媽媽。
08:01
We're all here, and all of those who watch it
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我們都在這裡,而所有看到這個爆炸事件的人
08:03
are going to be traumatized by this event,
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將會受到心理創傷
08:06
but all of you here who are victims are going to learn
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而你們這些遇難者,將會學到
08:09
some hard truths.
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一些殘酷的真理。
08:11
That is, our society, we sympathize, but after a while,
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也就是說,我們的社會,一開始會同情,但過了一陣子,
08:15
we start to ignore. We don't do enough as a society.
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我們就會開始忽略。作為一個社會,我們做得不夠。
08:19
We do not look after our victims, and we do not enable them,
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我們沒有照顧我們的受害者,我們也沒有賦予他們力量,
08:23
and what I'm going to try and show is that actually,
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我將嘗試表現的是,實際上,
08:26
victims are the best weapon we have
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受害者是我們擁有來對抗恐怖主義
08:29
against more terrorism.
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的最佳武器。
08:32
How would the government at the turn of the millennium
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在千禧年交替時的政府會如何面對恐怖攻擊?
08:36
approach today? Well, we all know.
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嗯,我們都知道。
08:38
What they'd have done then is an invasion.
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他們所做過的是侵略。
08:41
If the suicide bomber was from Wales,
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如果自殺炸彈客是來自威爾斯,
08:44
good luck to Wales, I'd say.
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我會說: 祝好運啊,威爾斯。
08:46
Knee-jerk legislation, emergency provision legislation --
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訴諸直覺的立法,緊急條文的立法
08:50
which hits at the very basis of our society, as we all know --
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這些都打擊了我們社會的根本基礎,我們都知道 — —
08:54
it's a mistake.
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這樣做是錯的。
08:57
We're going to drive prejudice throughout Edinburgh,
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我們將會驅動對威爾斯人的偏見,從愛丁堡,
09:00
throughout the U.K., for Welsh people.
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到整個英國。
09:05
Today's approach, governments have learned from their mistakes.
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現今的做法,政府已從他們的錯誤中學習。
09:11
They are looking at what I've started off on,
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他們開始研究我在演講開頭所說的,
09:13
on these more asymmetrical approaches to it,
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關於這些更加不對稱的做法,
09:16
more modernist views, cause and effect.
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更多的現代主義者的觀點、 因果關係。
09:19
But mistakes of the past are inevitable.
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但過去的錯誤是無法避免的。
09:22
It's human nature.
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這是人類的天性。
09:23
The fear and the pressure to do something on them
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做這些事情所要面對的壓力和恐懼
09:27
is going to be immense. They are going to make mistakes.
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將會是巨大的。他們將會犯錯。
09:29
They're not just going to be smart.
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他們不只是要變聰明。
09:33
There was a famous Irish terrorist who once summed up
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有一個著名的愛爾蘭恐怖分子曾下了一個
09:36
the point very beautifully. He said,
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十分漂亮的結論。他說,
09:39
"The thing is, about the British government, is, is that it's got
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"事情昰這樣的,對於英國政府來說,
09:41
to be lucky all the time, and we only have to be lucky once."
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必須要每次都幸運才行, 而對我們來說,只要幸運一次就夠了"。
09:46
So what we need to do is we have to effect it.
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所以我們需要做的是,我們要去影響它。
09:49
We've got to start thinking about being more proactive.
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我們得開始想想,更積極地去預防。
09:52
We need to build an arsenal of noncombative weapons
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我們需要建立一個非武力戰爭的武器庫
09:57
in this war on terrorism.
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來因應這場反恐戰爭。
09:58
But of course, it's ideas -- is not something that governments do very well.
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但當然,這只是想法,這並不是政府能做得很好的事情。
10:07
I want to go back just to before the bang, to this idea of
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我想回到剛剛的爆炸前,那個關於品牌的想法
10:11
brand, and I was talking about Coke and Pepsi, etc.
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那時我談到可口可樂和百事可樂,等等。
10:15
We see it as terrorism versus democracy in that brand war.
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我們認為這就像是恐怖主義與民主的品牌戰爭。
10:19
They'll see it as freedom fighters and truth
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他們(恐怖份子)則會把這看作自由戰士與真理
10:21
against injustice, imperialism, etc.
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對抗不公正與帝國主義。
10:28
We do have to see this as a deadly battlefield.
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我們必須把這看作是一個致命的戰場。
10:32
It's not just [our] flesh and blood they want.
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恐怖分子不只是想要我們的生命。
10:35
They actually want our cultural souls, and that's why
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他們實際上想要的,是我們文化的靈魂,這就是為什麼
10:38
the brand analogy is a very interesting way of looking at this.
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品牌比喻是一個非常有趣的方式來看待這問題。
10:42
If we look at al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was essentially
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如果我們看看阿爾蓋達組織。阿爾蓋達基本上算是
10:47
a product on a shelf in a souk somewhere
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在某處露天市場的貨架上的產品
10:51
which not many people had heard of.
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並沒有很多人聽說過的產品
10:54
9/11 launched it. It was its big marketing day,
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而9/11事件就像是產品發表。這是一個重大的行銷日子
10:58
and it was packaged for the 21st century. They knew what they were doing.
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這整個事件用21世紀的手法包裝。他們知道他們在做什麼。
11:03
They were effectively [doing] something in this brand image
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他們有效地 [執行] 關於這個品牌形象的工作
11:06
of creating a brand which can be franchised around
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創建了一個可以連鎖開業到全世界的品牌
11:10
the world, where there's poverty, ignorance and injustice.
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只要有貧窮、 愚昧和不公正的現象就行得通。
11:15
We, as I've said, have got to hit that market,
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我已經說過,我們要打進這個市場,
11:19
but we've got to use our heads rather than our might.
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但我們要使用我們的頭腦,而不是我們的力量。
11:23
If we perceive it in this way as a brand, or other ways of thinking at it like this,
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如果我們把這當成品牌來看,或以其他類似的方式來思考它
11:27
we will not resolve or counter terrorism.
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我們就不會去解決或打擊恐怖主義。
11:31
What I'd like to do is just briefly go through a few examples
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我想做的是只簡短地舉出幾個例子
11:34
from my work on areas where we try and approach these things differently.
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從我在一些區域的實務經驗,試著用不同的方式進行這些事情。
11:40
The first one has been dubbed "lawfare,"
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第一個被命名為 "lawfare" (法律戰爭)
11:44
for want of a better word.
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因為這樣名字比較響亮。
11:46
When we originally looked at bringing civil actions against terrorists,
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當我們最初開始對恐怖分子提出民事訴訟的時候,
11:50
everyone thought we were a bit mad and mavericks
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每個人都以為我們是有點瘋狂的初生之犢
11:53
and crackpots. Now it's got a title. Everyone's doing it.
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和狂想家。現在它有一個標題。每個人都在這樣做。
11:56
There's a bomb, people start suing.
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如果有一枚炸彈炸了,人們就會提出訴訟。
11:58
But one of the first early cases on this was the Omagh Bombing.
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這類早期案例之一是奧馬爆炸事件 (1998.8.15發生在北愛爾蘭)。
12:02
A civil action was brought from 1998.
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從 1998 年提出了民事訴訟。
12:05
In Omagh, bomb went off, Real IRA,
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在奧馬,真愛爾蘭共和軍在一個和談過程之中
12:09
middle of a peace process.
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引爆了炸彈。
12:11
That meant that the culprits couldn't really be prosecuted
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這意味著匪徒不能真的因此而被起訴
12:15
for lots of reasons, mostly to do with the peace process
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基於許多考量,主要與和談過程有關
12:18
and what was going on, the greater good.
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和當時正在進行的程續,公眾利益等
12:21
It also meant, then, if you can imagine this,
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這也意味著,如果你可以這樣想像,
12:23
that the people who bombed your children
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那個人炸死了你的孩子
12:25
and your husbands were walking around the supermarket
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和你的丈夫,卻仍然可以走在你日常生活會去的
12:31
that you lived in.
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那個市場。
12:32
Some of those victims said enough is enough.
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有些受害者站出來說: 真的受夠了。
12:36
We brought a private action, and thank God, 10 years later,
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我們提出了私人訴訟,感謝上帝,10 年後,
12:40
we actually won it. There is a slight appeal on
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我們實際上贏得了訴訟。仍有一小塊上訴
12:42
at the moment so I have to be a bit careful,
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目前還在進行中,所以我要稍微謹慎一點,
12:44
but I'm fairly confident.
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但我很有信心。
12:46
Why was it effective?
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為什麼這樣做會有效?
12:48
It was effective not just because justice was seen to be done
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這會有效,並不只是因為正義被伸張了
12:50
where there was a huge void.
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其實這裡有一個巨大的空白。
12:52
It was because the Real IRA and other terrorist groups,
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這是因為真愛爾蘭共和軍和其他恐怖團體,
12:57
their whole strength is from the fact that they are
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他們整體實力是基於一個事實: 他們是
12:59
an underdog. When we put the victims as the underdog
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弱者。而當我們把受害者作為弱者
13:04
and flipped it, they didn't know what to do.
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就翻轉了局面,他們不知道該怎麼應付了。
13:07
They were embarrassed. Their recruitment went down.
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他們都感到尷尬。他們能招募的人員變少了。
13:11
The bombs actually stopped -- fact -- because of this action.
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爆炸案實際上停止了 — — 這是事實 — — 就因為這樣的行動。
13:15
We became, or those victims became, more importantly,
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更重要的是,我們,或者該說是這些受害者,變成了
13:19
a ghost that haunted the terrorist organization.
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糾纏著恐怖組織的鬼魂。
13:23
There's other examples. We have a case called Almog
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還有其他的例子。我們有一個叫做阿爾莫格的案子
13:26
which is to do with a bank that was,
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是關於一家銀行,
13:30
allegedly, from our point of view,
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據說呢,從我們的觀點來看,
13:33
giving rewards to suicide bombers.
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這家銀行對自殺炸彈客給予獎勵。
13:37
Just by bringing the very action,
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僅僅是靠著這相同的訴訟
13:40
that bank has stopped doing it, and indeed,
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該銀行已停止這樣做了,而事實上,
13:42
the powers that be around the world, which for real politic
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世界上各地的強權,先前因為政治上的原因
13:45
reasons before, couldn't actually deal with this issue,
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不能真正地去處理這個問題,
13:48
because there was lots of competing interests,
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因為裡面有許多互相競爭的利益
13:50
have actually closed down those loopholes in the banking system.
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現在已經實際上關閉了這些在銀行體系裡的漏洞。
13:53
There's another case called the McDonald case,
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還有一個案例,叫做麥當勞案,
13:55
where some victims of Semtex, of the Provisional IRA bombings,
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案例中有一些 臨時愛爾蘭共和軍爆炸事件的受害者
14:00
which were supplied by Gaddafi, sued,
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對提供炸藥的格達費(利比亞軍事強人)提出訴訟,
14:06
and that action has led to amazing things for new Libya.
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這樣的行動已導致一些不可思議的事情在新的利比亞發生。
14:11
New Libya has been compassionate towards those victims,
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新的利比亞一直同情那些受害者
14:14
and started taking it -- so it started a whole new dialogue there.
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並開始接受這件事 — — 因此開始了全新的對話。
14:18
But the problem is, we need more and more support
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但問題是,我們需要更多的支援
14:22
for these ideas and cases.
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支援這些想法和案件。
14:25
Civil affairs and civil society initiatives.
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例如民政部門和民間社會的倡議。
14:29
A good one is in Somalia. There's a war on piracy.
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一個好例子是索馬利亞。有一場對抗海盜的戰爭。
14:32
If anyone thinks you can have a war on piracy
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如果有人以為對抗海盜的戰爭
14:34
like a war on terrorism and beat it, you're wrong.
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可以像對抗恐怖主義那樣並且取勝,那你就錯了。
14:36
What we're trying to do there is turn pirates to fisherman.
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我們試圖做的是,把海盜變成漁夫。
14:39
They used to be fisherman, of course,
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當然了,他們以前就是漁夫,
14:42
but we stole their fish and dumped a load of toxic waste
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但我們偷了他們的魚,又把有毒廢物倒到他們的海域
14:45
in their water, so what we're trying to do is create
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所以我們想要做的是,建立一個
14:48
security and employment by bringing a coastguard
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保全與就業的機制,帶進一個海岸警衛隊
14:50
along with the fisheries industry, and I can guarantee you,
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連同捕魚行業一起,我可以向你保證,
14:54
as that builds, al Shabaab and such likes will not have
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只要這些做起來,像al Shabaab 這類的組織, (索馬利亞的回教軍事組織,蓋達的分支)
14:57
the poverty and injustice any longer to prey on those people.
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將不會再有辦法拿貧窮和不公正,來獵捕這些人。
15:01
These initiatives cost less than a missile,
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這些計畫的成本遠低於一枚導彈
15:04
and certainly less than any soldier's life,
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肯定也比士兵的生命更便宜。
15:07
but more importantly, it takes the war to their homelands,
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但更重要的是,這種做法將戰爭帶到他們自己的家園,
15:10
and not onto our shore,
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而不是帶到我們的海岸,
15:13
and we're looking at the causes.
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而且我們是針對事情的源頭在處理。
15:14
The last one I wanted to talk about was dialogue.
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最後我想談一談的是對話。
15:17
The advantages of dialogue are obvious.
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對話的好處是顯而易見的。
15:20
It self-educates both sides, enables a better understanding,
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對話讓雙方自我學習,建立更好的相互了解
15:25
reveals the strengths and weaknesses,
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互相揭示長處和短處,
15:27
and yes, like some of the speakers before,
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就如同先前幾位演講者說的,沒錯,
15:29
the shared vulnerability does lead to trust, and
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分享出來的弱點的確會建立信任
15:33
it does then become, that process, part of normalization.
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這樣的程序,會變成正規化的一部份
15:36
But it's not an easy road. After the bomb,
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但這條路並不容易。在爆炸案之後
15:41
the victims are not into this.
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受害者不會接受這樣的方式。
15:44
There's practical problems.
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存在一些現實的問題。
15:46
It's politically risky for the protagonists
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對故事的主角和參與者來說,
15:49
and for the interlocutors. On one occasion
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政治風險很高。有一個場合中
15:51
I was doing it, every time I did a point that they didn't like,
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我正在進行對話,每次我談了一個他們不喜歡的論點,
15:54
they actually threw stones at me,
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他們真的向我丟石頭,
15:56
and when I did a point they liked,
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而當我談了他們喜歡的論點的時候
15:58
they starting shooting in the air, equally not great. (Laughter)
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他們開始對空開槍,這都同樣的不是好事。(笑聲)
16:02
Whatever the point, it gets to the heart of the problem,
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不管論點是什麼,這樣做會觸及問題的核心
16:06
you're doing it, you're talking to them.
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你願意去做,你願意去跟他們談。
16:08
Now, I just want to end with saying, if we follow reason,
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現在,我只想用這些話來結束。如果我們遵循理性
16:11
we realize that I think we'd all say that we want to
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我們會意識到,我認為我們都會希望對於
16:17
have a perception of terrorism which is not just a pure
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恐怖主義的看法不再只是單純的
16:19
military perception of it.
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軍事上的認知。
16:23
We need to foster more
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我們需要培養更多
16:26
modern and asymmetrical responses to it.
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現代和不對稱的應對方式。
16:28
This isn't about being soft on terrorism.
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這不是對恐怖主義手軟。
16:31
It's about fighting them on contemporary battlefields.
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這是與恐怖主義在現代戰場上的對抗。
16:35
We must foster innovation, as I've said.
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正如我已經說過,我們必須促進創新。
16:38
Governments are receptive. It won't come from those dusty corridors.
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各國政府都願意接受。它不會來自那些滿是灰塵的走廊。
16:42
The private sector has a role.
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私營部門也有角色。
16:44
The role we could do right now is going away
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現在我們能做的是走出來
16:46
and looking at how we can support victims around the world
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看著我們如何支援世界各地的受害者
16:50
to bring initiatives.
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來提出行動方案。
16:52
If I was to leave you with some big questions here which
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如果我能給你們留下了一些大問題,
16:54
may change one's perception to it, and who knows what
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可以改變你對這件事的認知,沒有人知道
16:58
thoughts and responses will come out of it,
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會帶出什麼樣的想法與回應
17:00
but did myself and my terrorist group actually need
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但我自己跟我的恐怖組織,難道真的需要
17:04
to blow you up to make our point?
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把你們炸上天來傳達這些觀點嗎?
17:07
We have to ask ourselves these questions, however unpalatable.
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我們要問自己這些問題,不論這是多麼的令人不快。
17:12
Have we been ignoring an injustice or a humanitarian
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我們是不是一直忽視某些不公正的現象,忽視了
17:15
struggle somewhere in the world?
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在世界某個地方發生的人道主義的掙扎呢?
17:18
What if, actually, engagement on poverty and injustice
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如果說,實際上,對貧窮和不公正的參與
17:20
is exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do?
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正是恐怖分子想要我們做的呢?
17:23
What if the bombs are just simply wake-up calls for us?
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如果這些炸彈,只是要喚醒我們的注意呢?
17:26
What happens if that bomb went off
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如果炸彈爆炸了,會發生什麼呢?
17:29
because we didn't have any thoughts and things in place
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只因為我們沒有任何想法和做為能夠到位
17:32
to allow dialogue to deal with these things and interaction?
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讓對話來處理這些事情和互動呢?
17:37
What is definitely uncontroversial
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有一點是絕對沒有爭議的
17:40
is that, as I've said, we've got to stop being reactive,
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就是,如我已經說過的,我們必須停止只做應變,
17:42
and more proactive, and I just want to leave you
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而更要積極主動預防,我只想留給大家
17:46
with one idea, which is that
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一個想法,就是
17:49
it's a provocative question for you to think about,
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這是一個挑釁性的問題,可以讓你想想,
17:52
and the answer will require sympathy with the devil.
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而解答將會需要對邪惡的同情心
17:56
It's a question that's been tackled by many great thinkers
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這是一個已經有許多偉大的思想家與作家想過的問題
17:59
and writers: What if society actually needs crisis to change?
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一個社會是不是真的需要遭遇危機才會改變?
18:04
What if society actually needs terrorism
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會不會這個社會實際上是需要恐怖主義
18:08
to change and adapt for the better?
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才能改變和調整得更好呢?
18:10
It's those Bulgakov themes, it's that picture of Jesus
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這就是那些布爾加科夫的主題,這就是耶穌和魔鬼
18:14
and the Devil hand in hand in Gethsemane
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手牽手走在月光下,在客西馬尼園的圖片。
18:18
walking into the moonlight.
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(克西馬尼園是耶穌與門徒在最後的晚餐後,前往禱告的地方)
18:20
What it would mean is that humans,
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這所代表的是,人類
18:23
in order to survive in development,
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為了求生存發展,
18:25
quite Darwinian spirit here,
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相當達爾文主義的論點
18:27
inherently must dance with the devil.
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本來就必須與魔鬼共舞。
18:32
A lot of people say that communism was defeated
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很多人說共產主義是被
18:36
by the Rolling Stones. It's a good theory.
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滾石樂團打敗的。這是一個好的理論。
18:40
Maybe the Rolling Stones has a place in this.
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也許滾石樂團在這場戰爭裡是有重要角色的。
18:43
Thank you.
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謝謝。
18:45
(Music) (Applause)
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(音樂)(掌聲)
18:54
Bruno Giussani: Thank you. (Applause)
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布魯諾 · 吉桑尼: 謝謝你。(掌聲)
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