Jason McCue: Terrorism is a failed brand

Jason McCue: El terrorismo es una marca condenada

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

Traductor: Amaranta Heredia Jaén Revisor: Lidia Cámara de la Fuente

We most certainly do talk to terrorists, no question about it.

Sin duda, hablamos a menudo de terrorismo.

We are at war with a new form of terrorism.

Estamos en guerra con un nuevo terrorismo.

It's sort of the good old, traditional form of terrorism,

Es como el terrorismo tradicional,

but it's sort of been packaged for the 21st century.

pero a la moda del siglo XXI.

One of the big things about countering terrorism

Para enfrentarnos al terrorismo, primero,

is, how do you perceive it?

¿cómo lo percibimos?

Because perception leads to your response to it.

Porque nuestra percepción determinará nuestra respuesta.

So if you have a traditional perception of terrorism,

Si lo percibimos de forma tradicional,

it would be that it's one of criminality, one of war.

será como el crimen, como la guerra.

So how are you going to respond to it?

¿Cómo responderemos entonces?

Naturally, it would follow that you meet kind with kind.

Pues diente por diente. A luchar.

You fight it. If you have a more modernist approach,

Si se tiene un punto de vista más moderno

and your perception of terrorism is almost cause-and-effect,

y se percibe como una cuestión de causa-efecto,

then naturally from that, the responses that come out of it

la respuesta natural será

are much more asymmetrical.

mucho más asimétrica.

We live in a modern, global world.

Vivimos en un mundo globalizado y moderno.

Terrorists have actually adapted to it.

Y los terroristas se han adaptado.

It's something we have to, too, and that means the people

Nosotros también deberíamos hacerlo.

who are working on counterterrorism responses

Quienes trabajan en el contraterrorismo

have to start, in effect, putting on

deberían verlo desde otra perspectiva

their Google-tinted glasses, or whatever.

desde la perspectiva de Google o así

For my part, what I wanted us to do was just to look at

Quiero proponerles que nos acerquemos

terrorism as though it was a global brand,

al terrorismo como si fuera una marca internacional.

say, Coca-Cola.

Coca-Cola, por ejemplo.

Both are fairly bad for your health. (Laughter)

Ambos son malos para la salud. (Risas)

If you look at it as a brand in those ways,

Si lo vemos como una marca,

what you'll come to realize is, it's a pretty flawed product.

veremos que es un producto muy defectuoso.

As we've said, it's pretty bad for your health,

Es malo para la salud:

it's bad for those who it affects,

para la de los afectados

and it's not actually good if you're a suicide bomber either.

y también para la de los propios terroristas suicidas.

It doesn't actually do what it says on the tin.

No ofrece lo que pone en la lata.

You're not really going to get 72 virgins in heaven.

No ofrece 72 vírgenes en el paraíso.

It's not going to happen, I don't think.

No creo que eso suceda.

And you're not really going to, in the '80s, end capitalism

Y pasados los 80, no vamos a acabar con el capitalismo

by supporting one of these groups. It's a load of nonsense.

apoyando a estos grupos. Es absurdo.

But what you realize, it's got an Achilles' heel.

Pero tiene su talón de Aquiles.

The brand has an Achilles' heel.

La marca tiene un talón de Aquiles.

We've mentioned the health,

Hablamos de la salud,

but it needs consumers to buy into it.

pero hacen falta consumidores.

The consumers it needs are the terrorist constituency.

Los consumidores serían el electorado terrorista.

They're the people who buy into the brand, support them,

Los que apoyan la marca,

facilitate them, and they're the people

los que la ayudan, con ellos tenemos

we've got to reach out to.

que tratar.

We've got to attack that brand in front of them.

Debemos atacar la marca delante de ellos.

There's two essential ways of doing that, if we carry on this brand theme.

Siguiendo con el símil, hay dos formas de hacerlo.

One is reducing their market. What I mean is,

Podemos reducir su mercado.

it's their brand against our brand. We've got to compete.

Competir con otra marca en el mercado.

We've got to show we're a better product.

Mostrarles que tenemos un mejor producto.

If I'm trying to show we're a better product,

Para mostrar un mejor producto,

I probably wouldn't do things like Guantanamo Bay.

cosas como Guantánamo no ayudan.

We've talked there about curtailing the underlying need

Hemos hablado de reducir las necesidades subyacentes

for the product itself. You could be looking there at

de tal producto, tales como

poverty, injustice, all those sorts of things

la pobreza, la injusticia, y cosas así,

which feed terrorism.

que ceban el terrorismo.

The other thing to do is to knock the product,

También podemos criticar el producto,

attack the brand myth, as we've said.

atacar la marca.

You know, there's nothing heroic about killing a young kid.

¿Qué hay de heroico en matar a un niño?

Perhaps we need to focus on that and get that message back across.

Quizá debamos centrarnos en enviar ese mensaje.

We've got to reveal the dangers in the product.

Tenemos que destapar los peligros del producto.

Our target audience, it's not just the producers of terrorism,

No sólo nos dirigimos a los terroristas,

as I've said, the terrorists.

sino también a su público,

It's not just the marketeers of terrorism,

que comprende tanto a los vendedores,

which is those who finance, those who facilitate it,

como a los patrocinadores del terrorismo,

but it's the consumers of terrorism.

y también a sus consumidores.

We've got to get in to those homelands.

Tenemos que llegar a esos hogares.

That's where they recruit from. That's where they get their power and strength.

Ahí es donde consiguen seguidores, poder y fuerza.

That's where their consumers come from.

De ahí salen sus consumidores.

And we have to get our messaging in there.

Y ahí debemos enviar nuestros mensajes.

So the essentials are, we've got to have interaction

Lo básico, entonces, es interactuar

in those areas, with the terrorists, the facilitators, etc.

con los terroristas, con sus seguidores, etc.

We've got to engage, we've got to educate,

Debemos educarlos, interesarlos,

and we've got to have dialogue.

debemos hablar con ellos.

Now, staying on this brand thing for just a few more seconds,

Siguiendo con el símil,

think about delivery mechanisms.

piensen en los métodos.

How are we going to do these attacks?

¿Cómo vamos a atacar su marca?

Well, reducing the market is really one for governments

Reducir el mercado implicará al gobierno

and civil society. We've got to show we're better.

y a la sociedad civil. Les mostraremos nuestra calidad.

We've got to show our values.

Nuestros valores.

We've got to practice what we preach.

Tenemos que practicar lo que predicamos.

But when it comes to knocking the brand,

Si queremos eliminar la marca...

if the terrorists are Coca-Cola and we're Pepsi,

si los terroristas son Coca-Cola y nosotros Pepsi,

I don't think, being Pepsi, anything we say about Coca-Cola,

nadie va a escuchar lo que Pepsi diga sobre Coca-Cola,

anyone's going to believe us.

no nos creerán.

So we've got to find a different mechanism,

Tenemos que encontrar otra manera,

and one of the best mechanisms I've ever come across

y una de las mejores que yo conozco son

is the victims of terrorism.

las víctimas del terrorismo.

They are somebody who can actually stand there and say,

Gente que puede decir públicamente:

"This product's crap. I had it and I was sick for days.

"Este producto es una mierda. Lo tomé y me puse enfermo.

It burnt my hand, whatever." You believe them.

Me quemó la mano". Los creeremos.

You can see their scars. You trust them.

Veremos sus cicatrices. Nos merecen confianza.

But whether it's victims, whether it's governments,

Ya sea con las víctimas, con los gobiernos,

NGOs, or even the Queen yesterday, in Northern Ireland,

las ONG o la reina ayer, en Irlanda del Norte,

we have to interact and engage with those different

debemos llegar e implicar a los diferentes

layers of terrorism, and, in effect,

estratos del terrorismo.

we do have to have a little dance with the devil.

Sí, tenemos que bailar con el demonio.

This is my favorite part of my speech.

Esta es mi parte favorita de la charla.

I wanted to blow you all up to try and make a point,

Quería poner una bomba para explicarme bien,

but — (Laughter) —

pero... (risas)

TED, for health and safety reasons, have told me

por razones de salud y de seguridad, TED me obliga

I've got to do a countdown, so

a hacer una cuenta atrás.

I feel like a bit of an Irish or Jewish terrorist,

Me siento un poco como un terrorista irlandés o judío,

sort of a health and safety terrorist, and I — (Laughter) —

una especie de terrorista seguro y formal... (Risas)

I've got to count 3, 2, 1, and

Tengo que contar 3, 2, 1.

it's a bit alarming, so thinking of what my motto would be,

Asusta un poco, por lo que mi eslogan sería algo como:

and it would be, "Body parts, not heart attacks."

"Cuerpos desmembrados mejor que ataques al corazón."

So 3, 2, 1. (Explosion sound)

3, 2, 1. (Ruido de explosión)

Very good. (Laughter)

Muy bien. (Risas)

Now, lady in 15J was a suicide bomber amongst us all.

La señora de la 15J era una terrorista suicida.

We're all victims of terrorism.

Ahora todos somos víctimas del terrorismo.

There's 625 of us in this room. We're going to be scarred for life.

Los 625 de aquí quedaremos traumatizados de por vida.

There was a father and a son who sat in that seat over there.

Un padre y un hijo se sentaban ahí.

The son's dead. The father lives.

El hijo murió, el padre sobrevivió.

The father will probably kick himself for years to come

El padre se reprochará toda la vida

that he didn't take that seat instead of his kid.

el no haberse sentado en el otro sitio.

He's going to take to alcohol, and he's probably

Se dará a la bebida y en tres años probablemente

going to kill himself in three years. That's the stats.

se suicidará. Estadísticas.

There's a very young, attractive lady over here,

Aquí hay una muchacha joven y guapa,

and she has something which I think's the worst form

que ha sufrido una de las, para mí, peores lesiones

of psychological, physical injury I've ever seen

físicas y psicológicas que he visto

out of a suicide bombing: It's human shrapnel.

tras un atentado: la metralla.

What it means is, when she sat in a restaurant

Significa que durante los próximos 10-15 años,

in years to come, 10 years to come, 15 years to come,

cuando esté en un restaurante, o en la playa,

or she's on the beach, every so often she's going to start

y se rasque la piel,

rubbing her skin, and out of there will come

se arrancará otra pieza

a piece of that shrapnel.

de metralla.

And that is a hard thing for the head to take.

Y eso es algo insoportable para la mente.

There's a lady over there as well who lost her legs

Aquella señora perdió las piernas

in this bombing.

en el atentado.

She's going to find out that she gets a pitiful amount

Descubrirá que el gobierno le dará una miseria

of money off our government

para cuidarse

for looking after what's happened to her.

en su situación

She had a daughter who was going to go to one of the best

Su hija iba a ir a una de las mejores universidades.

universities. She's going to give up university

Ahora dejará la universidad

to look after Mum.

para cuidar a su madre.

We're all here, and all of those who watch it

Estamos todos aquí. Los espectadores

are going to be traumatized by this event,

quedarán traumatizados,

but all of you here who are victims are going to learn

pero los asistentes, las víctimas, aprenderán

some hard truths.

verdades dolorosas.

That is, our society, we sympathize, but after a while,

La sociedad se compadece durante un tiempo,

we start to ignore. We don't do enough as a society.

pero luego ignora. La sociedad no da lo suficiente.

We do not look after our victims, and we do not enable them,

No cuida a sus víctimas, ni las capacita.

and what I'm going to try and show is that actually,

Y les mostraré que las víctimas

victims are the best weapon we have

son nuestra mejor arma

against more terrorism.

contra el terrorismo futuro.

How would the government at the turn of the millennium

¿Cómo reaccionan hoy día los gobiernos?

approach today? Well, we all know.

Ya lo hemos visto.

What they'd have done then is an invasion.

Utilizan las invasiones militares.

If the suicide bomber was from Wales,

Si el terrorista era galés.

good luck to Wales, I'd say.

¡Buena suerte, Gales!

Knee-jerk legislation, emergency provision legislation --

La legislación refleja, la legislación urgente,

which hits at the very basis of our society, as we all know --

ataca los fundamentos de nuestras sociedades.

it's a mistake.

Es un error.

We're going to drive prejudice throughout Edinburgh,

Vamos a extender los prejuicios contra los galeses

throughout the U.K., for Welsh people.

por Edimburgo, por todo el Reino Unido.

Today's approach, governments have learned from their mistakes.

Hoy día, los gobiernos han aprendido de sus errores.

They are looking at what I've started off on,

Analizan lo que dije al principio sobre

on these more asymmetrical approaches to it,

las estrategias asimétricas, visiones más modernistas,

more modernist views, cause and effect.

causa y efecto.

But mistakes of the past are inevitable.

Los errores del pasado no se pueden cambiar.

It's human nature.

Está en la naturaleza humana.

The fear and the pressure to do something on them

El miedo y la presión para que hagan algo

is going to be immense. They are going to make mistakes.

será muy grande. Cometerán errores.

They're not just going to be smart.

No siempre acertarán.

There was a famous Irish terrorist who once summed up

Un conocido terrorista irlandés

the point very beautifully. He said,

lo resumió muy bien:

"The thing is, about the British government, is, is that it's got

"El gobierno británico tiene que tener suerte siempre,

to be lucky all the time, and we only have to be lucky once."

nosotros tan solo una vez."

So what we need to do is we have to effect it.

Debemos cambiarlo.

We've got to start thinking about being more proactive.

Debemos proponernos ser más dinámicos.

We need to build an arsenal of noncombative weapons

Necesitamos reunir un arsenal de armas no militares

in this war on terrorism.

para la guerra contra el terrorismo.

But of course, it's ideas -- is not something that governments do very well.

Pero los gobiernos no suelen trabajar bien con ideas.

I want to go back just to before the bang, to this idea of

Volvamos a la idea de la marca, antes de la explosión,

brand, and I was talking about Coke and Pepsi, etc.

cuando hablábamos de Coca-cola y Pepsi.

We see it as terrorism versus democracy in that brand war.

En esa guerra es el terrorismo contra la democracia.

They'll see it as freedom fighters and truth

Ellos se ven como guerrilleros por la libertad

against injustice, imperialism, etc.

contra la injusticia, el imperialismo, etc.

We do have to see this as a deadly battlefield.

Debemos entenderlo como una guerra a muerte.

It's not just [our] flesh and blood they want.

No solo quieren nuestra sangre y huesos.

They actually want our cultural souls, and that's why

Lo que quieren es nuestro espíritu cultural

the brand analogy is a very interesting way of looking at this.

y por eso la analogía de la marca es interesante.

If we look at al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was essentially

Al Qaeda, por ejemplo, era tan solo

a product on a shelf in a souk somewhere

un producto almacenado

which not many people had heard of.

que casi nadie conocía.

9/11 launched it. It was its big marketing day,

El 11-S lo lanzó al estrellato. El día de estreno

and it was packaged for the 21st century. They knew what they were doing.

con formato para el siglo XXI. Sabían lo que hacían.

They were effectively [doing] something in this brand image

Tomaron la marca y la abrieron a la creación

of creating a brand which can be franchised around

de franquicias en los lugares

the world, where there's poverty, ignorance and injustice.

llenos de pobreza, ignorancia e injusticia.

We, as I've said, have got to hit that market,

Debemos llegar a ese mercado,

but we've got to use our heads rather than our might.

pero con nuestras cabezas, no con la fuerza.

If we perceive it in this way as a brand, or other ways of thinking at it like this,

Si lo vemos como una marca, o algo similar,

we will not resolve or counter terrorism.

no llegaremos al contraterrorismo.

What I'd like to do is just briefly go through a few examples

Me gustaría hablar brevemente de algunos ejemplos

from my work on areas where we try and approach these things differently.

del trabajo que hacemos.

The first one has been dubbed "lawfare,"

El primero se llama "guerra legal"

for want of a better word.

para mejorar el mundo.

When we originally looked at bringing civil actions against terrorists,

Cuando sugerimos por primera vez someter a los terrorista a acciones civiles,

everyone thought we were a bit mad and mavericks

todos nos pensaron locos, disidentes, chiflados.

and crackpots. Now it's got a title. Everyone's doing it.

Ahora tiene un nombre y todos lo hacen.

There's a bomb, people start suing.

Cuando hay un atentado, todo el mundo denuncia.

But one of the first early cases on this was the Omagh Bombing.

Uno de los primeros casos fue el atentado de Omagh.

A civil action was brought from 1998.

En 1998 se llevó a juicio.

In Omagh, bomb went off, Real IRA,

En medio de un proceso de paz,

middle of a peace process.

el IRA puso una bomba en Omagh.

That meant that the culprits couldn't really be prosecuted

No se podía perseguir a los culpables

for lots of reasons, mostly to do with the peace process

sobre todo por el proceso de paz

and what was going on, the greater good.

y otras razones, por el bien común.

It also meant, then, if you can imagine this,

Así, si es que lo pueden imaginar,

that the people who bombed your children

los asesinos de sus hijos y sus maridos

and your husbands were walking around the supermarket

compraban en mismo supermercado

that you lived in.

donde Uds. vivían.

Some of those victims said enough is enough.

Y algunas víctimas dijeron basta ya.

We brought a private action, and thank God, 10 years later,

Se llevó a los tribunales y 10 años después ganamos.

we actually won it. There is a slight appeal on

No podemos cantar victoria,

at the moment so I have to be a bit careful,

porque ahora mismo hay una apelación,

but I'm fairly confident.

pero tengo confianza.

Why was it effective?

¿Funcionó?

It was effective not just because justice was seen to be done

Funcionó no solo porque se hizo justicia

where there was a huge void.

donde nunca se había hecho.

It was because the Real IRA and other terrorist groups,

Funcionó porque el IRA Auténtico y otros grupos terroristas

their whole strength is from the fact that they are

son fuertes porque siempre han estado en desventaja.

an underdog. When we put the victims as the underdog

Cuando las víctimas se convirtieron en los desvalidos,

and flipped it, they didn't know what to do.

ya no sabían qué hacer.

They were embarrassed. Their recruitment went down.

Estaban avergonzados. El número de adhesiones bajó.

The bombs actually stopped -- fact -- because of this action.

Como consecuencia, dejaron de poner bombas.

We became, or those victims became, more importantly,

Las víctimas se convirtieron en un fantasma

a ghost that haunted the terrorist organization.

persiguiendo al grupo terrorista.

There's other examples. We have a case called Almog

Hay otros ejemplos, como el caso Almog,

which is to do with a bank that was,

relacionado un banco que,

allegedly, from our point of view,

desde nuestro punto de vista,

giving rewards to suicide bombers.

recompensaba a los terroristas suicidas.

Just by bringing the very action,

Simplemente tomando medidas,

that bank has stopped doing it, and indeed,

el banco dejó de hacerlo y

the powers that be around the world, which for real politic

los poderes internacionales que, por razones políticas concretas,

reasons before, couldn't actually deal with this issue,

no podían resolver este problema,

because there was lots of competing interests,

al haber muchos intereses contrapuestos,

have actually closed down those loopholes in the banking system.

han podido eliminar las lagunas legales del sistema bancario.

There's another case called the McDonald case,

En el caso McDonald, algunas víctimas del

where some victims of Semtex, of the Provisional IRA bombings,

IRA Provisional, atacadas con Semtex,

which were supplied by Gaddafi, sued,

que les había suministrado Gaddafi, los demandaron

and that action has led to amazing things for new Libya.

y provocaron cambios increíbles en la nueva Libia.

New Libya has been compassionate towards those victims,

La nueva Libia ha mostrado compasión hacia las víctimas

and started taking it -- so it started a whole new dialogue there.

y se lo tomó en serio, iniciando diálogos.

But the problem is, we need more and more support

Pero necesitamos mucho más apoyo

for these ideas and cases.

para estas ideas, para estas iniciativas sociales

Civil affairs and civil society initiatives.

y estos asuntos civiles.

A good one is in Somalia. There's a war on piracy.

Somalia es un buen caso: la guerra contra la piratería.

If anyone thinks you can have a war on piracy

Si alguien piensa que se puede luchar contra la piratería

like a war on terrorism and beat it, you're wrong.

o el terrorismo y vencer, se equivoca.

What we're trying to do there is turn pirates to fisherman.

Nosotros intentamos que los piratas se hagan pescadores,

They used to be fisherman, of course,

lo que solían hacer, claro,

but we stole their fish and dumped a load of toxic waste

hasta que les robamos la pesca y vertimos desperdicios tóxicos

in their water, so what we're trying to do is create

en sus aguas. Ahora intentamos crear un servicio

security and employment by bringing a coastguard

de guardacosta asociado a la industria pesquera,

along with the fisheries industry, and I can guarantee you,

que crea empleo y seguridad. Les garantizo que así

as that builds, al Shabaab and such likes will not have

Al Shabab y otros tantos no podrán aprovecharse

the poverty and injustice any longer to prey on those people.

de la pobreza y la injusticia para captar a gente.

These initiatives cost less than a missile,

Estas iniciativas son más baratas que un misil

and certainly less than any soldier's life,

o la vida de cualquier soldado, pero sobre todo

but more importantly, it takes the war to their homelands,

al mirar las causas, llevamos la guerra a su origen

and not onto our shore,

y no la traemos

and we're looking at the causes.

a nuestro territorio.

The last one I wanted to talk about was dialogue.

Por último, quiero hablar sobre el diálogo.

The advantages of dialogue are obvious.

Las ventajas están claras.

It self-educates both sides, enables a better understanding,

Educa a los participantes, permite un mejor entendimiento,

reveals the strengths and weaknesses,

muestra las fortalezas y debilidades

and yes, like some of the speakers before,

y también, como mencionaron otros,

the shared vulnerability does lead to trust, and

la vulnerabilidad compartida produce confianza,

it does then become, that process, part of normalization.

y ese proceso se convierte en parte de la normalización.

But it's not an easy road. After the bomb,

No es un camino fácil. Tras la bomba

the victims are not into this.

las víctimas no lo apoyan.

There's practical problems.

Hay problemas prácticos.

It's politically risky for the protagonists

Políticamente, es arriesgado para los protagonistas

and for the interlocutors. On one occasion

y para los interlocutores. Haciendo esto

I was doing it, every time I did a point that they didn't like,

una vez, cada vez que decía algo que no les gustaban

they actually threw stones at me,

me tiraban piedras,

and when I did a point they liked,

y cuando les gustaba,

they starting shooting in the air, equally not great. (Laughter)

tiroteaban al aire. Igual de desagradable. (Risas)

Whatever the point, it gets to the heart of the problem,

Sea lo que sea, uno se acerca al centro del problema

you're doing it, you're talking to them.

al hablar directamente con ellos.

Now, I just want to end with saying, if we follow reason,

Solo quiero añadir que, siendo razonables,

we realize that I think we'd all say that we want to

el terrorismo no debería percibirse

have a perception of terrorism which is not just a pure

solamente como

military perception of it.

una cuestión militar.

We need to foster more

Debemos fomentar

modern and asymmetrical responses to it.

las respuestas modernas y asimétricas.

This isn't about being soft on terrorism.

No se trata de ser blandos con el terrorismo.

It's about fighting them on contemporary battlefields.

Se trata de luchar con armas actuales.

We must foster innovation, as I've said.

Debemos fomentar la innovación.

Governments are receptive. It won't come from those dusty corridors.

Los gobiernos no son receptivos. Con ellos no lograremos nada.

The private sector has a role.

El sector privado tiene cierta responsabilidad.

The role we could do right now is going away

Ahora mismo podríamos analizar la situación

and looking at how we can support victims around the world

y ver cómo podemos apoyar a las víctimas

to bring initiatives.

a organizar iniciativas.

If I was to leave you with some big questions here which

Si tuviera que elegir las preguntas

may change one's perception to it, and who knows what

que cambiarían nuestra percepción,

thoughts and responses will come out of it,

nuestra opinión y nuestras respuestas...

but did myself and my terrorist group actually need

¿teníamos que poner una bomba

to blow you up to make our point?

para conseguir lo que queríamos?

We have to ask ourselves these questions, however unpalatable.

Aunque sea difícil, debemos preguntárnoslo.

Have we been ignoring an injustice or a humanitarian

¿Hemos ignorado alguna injusticia o crisis humanitaria

struggle somewhere in the world?

en algún lugar del mundo?

What if, actually, engagement on poverty and injustice

¿Y si lo que los terroristas quisieran fuera

is exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do?

nuestro compromiso contra la injusticia y la pobreza?

What if the bombs are just simply wake-up calls for us?

¿Y si las bomba fueran simplemente despertadores?

What happens if that bomb went off

¿Y si las bombas hubieran explotado

because we didn't have any thoughts and things in place

porque no había suficientes herramientas

to allow dialogue to deal with these things and interaction?

para el diálogo y la interacción?

What is definitely uncontroversial

Sobre lo que no hay ninguna duda

is that, as I've said, we've got to stop being reactive,

es que debemos ser menos reactivos

and more proactive, and I just want to leave you

y más proactivos. Me gustaría dejarles

with one idea, which is that

con una idea,

it's a provocative question for you to think about,

una cuestión provocadora para que reflexionen.

and the answer will require sympathy with the devil.

Para responder tendrán que aliarse con el diablo.

It's a question that's been tackled by many great thinkers

A ella se han enfrentado muchos grandes pensadores

and writers: What if society actually needs crisis to change?

y escritores: ¿y si la sociedad avanza gracias a las crisis?

What if society actually needs terrorism

¿Y si necesitamos el terrorismo

to change and adapt for the better?

para avanzar y mejorar?

It's those Bulgakov themes, it's that picture of Jesus

Como los motivos de Bulgakov, la imagen de Jesús

and the Devil hand in hand in Gethsemane

y el demonio de la mano en Getsemaní,

walking into the moonlight.

a la luz de la luna.

What it would mean is that humans,

Significaría que los humanos,

in order to survive in development,

para sobrevivir y desarrollarse,

quite Darwinian spirit here,

hablando con espíritu darwiniano,

inherently must dance with the devil.

deben aliarse con el demonio.

A lot of people say that communism was defeated

Muchos dicen que fueron los Rolling Stones

by the Rolling Stones. It's a good theory.

los que vencieron al comunismo. Buena teoría.

Maybe the Rolling Stones has a place in this.

Quizá aquí también puedan hacer algo.

Thank you.

Gracias.

(Music) (Applause)

(Música) (Aplausos)

Bruno Giussani: Thank you. (Applause)

Bruno Giussani: Gracias. (Aplausos)