The weird history of the "sex chromosomes" | Molly Webster

Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Krystian Aparta

Prevodilac: Denis Krndija Lektor: Ivana Korom

OK.

OK.

So we are going to start in 1891,

Priča počinje u 1891,

when a German scientist was looking through a microscope

kada je jedan nemački naučnik pomoću mikroskopa posmatrao

at insect cells.

ćelije insekata.

And he saw something kind of funny.

I video nešto pomalo neobično.

At the center of the cells, there was this dark stuff.

U centru tih ćelija bio je neki tamni materijal.

No one had ever seen it before.

Niko to pre nije video.

And he noticed that as the cells would multiply and divide,

I primetio je da bi tokom ćelijske deobe

it would go into some of the new cells

materijal prešao u neke od novih ćelija,

but not the others.

ali ne u sve.

He didn't know what it was, so he gave it a really great name.

Pošto nije znao o čemu se radi, dao mu je zaista odlično ime.

He called it the "X element."

Nazvao ga je "X element".

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

And he was like, "We'll just fill in that X later."

I rekao je, "Preimenovaćemo mi taj X malo kasnije."

And then, fast-forward 10 years later,

I onda, 10 godina kasnije,

and there is an American scientist,

u priču ulazi jedna američka naučnica,

and she is looking through her microscope,

koja opet koristi mikroskop da gleda

also at insect cells.

ćelije insekata.

And she sees something funny.

I vidi nešto neobično.

There's more of this dark stuff.

Ima još tog tamnog materijala.

And it's kind of tiny,

Nekako je sićušan,

it's hanging out near the X element.

i nalazi se pored X elementa.

And eventually, someone was like,

Na kraju je neko rekao,

"Well, if that one thing's called X,

"Ako se ovaj prvi zove X,

should we call this other thing Y?"

zašto ne bismo ovaj drugi nazvali Y?"

And like that, (Snaps fingers)

I tako (pucketa prstima)

the sex chromosomes had been discovered.

su otkriveni polni hromozomi.

So chromosomes,

Dakle, hromozomi,

you probably all know what they are,

verovatno već svi znate šta su,

but I will tell you anyways.

ali ću vam svejedno reći.

They're made up of DNA --

Oni su sačinjeni od DNK.

everything has it, it's the blueprint of life,

Ona je u svemu, ona je osnova svega živog,

we've got rats, we've got trees,

bili to pacovi, drveće,

we've got insects, we've got humans.

insekti, ili ljudi.

And in the case of human chromosomes,

Što se tiče ljudskih hromozoma,

geneticist Melissa Wilson broke it down for me like this.

genetičarka Melisa Vilson mi je to ovako objasnila.

(Audio) Melissa Wilson: Typically, you'll get one copy of every chromosome

(Audio) Melisa Vilson: U pravilu, jednu kopiju svakog hromozoma dobićeš

from your genetic mom

od svoje biološke majke

and one copy of every chromosome from your genetic dad,

i jednu kopiju svakog hromozoma od svog biološkog oca.

and we have 22 of these

Imamo ukupno 22 para ovih kopija -

that you get one copy from mom and one copy from dad.

jednu dobijamo od majke i jednu od oca.

And then there's a 23rd pair, X and Y.

E sad, tu je i 23. par, X i Y.

Molly Webster: So while all the other chromosomes are numbered,

Moli Vebster: Premda su svi ostali hromozomi označeni brojevima,

one through 22,

od 1 do 22,

we do not call X and Y 23.

X i Y nisu označeni kao 23.

I like to think that they are waiting for, like, a LeBron James to come along.

Kao da čekaju LeBron Džejmsa da to reši.

But in this instance, they were like,

Ali u ovom slučaju, rekli su,

"We're just going to keep the letters,

"Zadržaćemo slova,

and then we'll give them a title."

i onda ćemo im dati naziv."

They called them the sex chromosomes.

Nazvali su ih polnim hormozomima.

Now I would wager that in the United States,

Kladim se da su u SAD-u

these are the most well-known chromosomes

ovo najpoznatiji hromozomi

for one simple fact:

iz jednog prostog razloga:

that we say X equals "girl," and Y equals "boy" --

X se izjednačava sa "devojčica", a Y sa "dečak",

that they are responsible for sex.

zato što su odgovorni za pol.

And -- and I had to learn this --

I, ovo sam morala da naučim,

but when I'm talking about "sex" here,

kada ovde govorim o "polu",

I'm talking about the way biology gives us gonads,

govorim o tome kako nam biologija daje genitalije,

which are our ovaries and our testes --

odnosno naše jajnike i testise,

I'm not talking about gender, which is how we identify.

ne govorim o rodu, s kojim se identifikujemo.

And so, as a reporter at the show --

Kao reporterka u emisiji

"Radiolab," the audio documentary program I work for --

"Radiolab", to je radijska dokumentarna emisija za koju radim,

I was like, what's up with these sex chromosomes?

pitala sam šta se događa s tim polnim hromozomima?

You know, that's kind of my job, I think things are weird,

Znate, to je u opisu mog posla, naiđem na nešto neobično,

and then I get to call people about them

onda nazovem ljude

and ask questions, and then hopefully they answer.

i postavljam pitanja, a oni daju odgovore.

And in this case, a lot of people answered.

U ovom slučaju, mnogo ljudi je odgovorilo.

And in the two years I had of reporting on X and Y,

I tokom dve godine mog izveštavanja o X i Y

as part of "Gonads," the series on sex and gender

u sklopu "Gonada", serije emisija o polu i rodu

I ended up doing for "Radiolab,"

koju sam radila za "Radiolab",

I found out that these two chromosomes live in a world that is unexpected,

shvatila sam da ova dva hromozoma obitavaju u svetu koji je neočekivan,

a little unsettling;

pomalo uznemirujući;

where things that I thought were facts

gde su stvari koje sam smatrala činjenicama,

were, like, twisted in ways I hadn't seen before.

izokrenute na načine koje nisam mogla da očekujem.

And the world goes so far beyond the boundaries of sex,

Pošto svet probija granice pola,

I was like,

pomislila sam,

"Maybe we should all talk about this."

"Možda bi trebalo da se razgovara o ovome."

So, you're you all,

Dakle, tu smo,

we're all going to talk about it.

i razgovaraćemo o ovome.

And for me,

Za mene,

the true story of X and Y starts with their name.

prava priča o X i Y počinje s njihovim imenom.

So within years of being discovered,

Par godina nakon njihovog otkrića,

these two little chromosomes had acquired more than 10 different names.

ova dva mala hromozoma su dobila više od 10 različitih naziva.

There was diplosome and heterochromosome

Bili su tu diplozom, heterohromozom

and idiochromosome,

i idiohromozom,

and most of the names had to do with their structure, their shape,

i većina ovih naziva je povezana s njihovom strukturom, njihovim oblikom,

their size.

njihovom veličinom.

And then there was "sex chromosome,"

A onda je došao naziv "polni hromozom",

which they had been given because of the fact

koji im je dat zbog činjenice

that we had started seeing that the X would go with the females,

da smo uvideli da X ide zajedno sa ženskim,

and the Y would often go with the males.

a da Y često ide s muškim polom.

But scientists were like,

Ali naučnici su se pitali,

"Do we really want to call them sex chromosomes?"

"Da li zaista želimo da ih nazovemo polni hromozomi?"

And science historian Sarah Richardson is the one who told me this story.

Istoričarka nauke Sara Ričardson mi je ovo rekla.

(Audio) Sarah Richardson: For three decades, scientists were like,

(Audio) Sara Ričardson: Tri decenije su naučnici govorili

"You should not call them the sex chromosomes.

"Ne bi trebalo da ih zovete polnim hromozomima.

The X and Y have many functions,

X i Y imaju mnogo funkcija,

and you wouldn't assume that a single chromosome

i teško je zamisliti da ceo jedan hromozom

controls a single trait.

kontroliše samo jednu osobinu.

Imagine calling one chromosome the 'urogenital chromosome,'

Zamislite kad bi neki hromozom nazvali "urogenitalni hromozom",

or the 'liver chromosome.'"

ili "jetreni hromozom".

MW: Scientists, if you dig into the history --

MV: Naučnici su, ako pogledate kroz istoriju -

it's really cool, you should --

to je stvarno kul i trebalo bi -

were hesitant to, like, commit to such a specific name

oklevali da prihvate tako specifičan naziv

and such a powerfully connotated name.

s tako snažnom konotacijom.

There was a fear that it would actually be really limiting --

Postojala je bojazan da bi to zapravo bilo jako ograničavajuće,

maybe to science, maybe to society --

možda prema nauci, možda prema društvu,

but the fear was in the room.

ali bojazan je bila prisutna.

And you can see they ended up getting "sex chromosome" --

I eto, kako vidite, na kraju imamo "polne hromozome".

it's like a pretty juicy title,

To je atraktivan naziv,

it popularized genetics, you know?

i popularizovao je genetiku.

But in the 100-year history since we settled on that name,

Ali ima već 100 godina otkako smo prihvatili taj naziv,

you can see it starts to get a little complicated.

i videćete da počinje da postaje komplikovano.

So around 1960 --

Oko 1960,

this is going to be our first stop

to će biti naša prva stanica na putu

on the complicated world of the sex chromosomes --

kroz komplikovan svet polnih hromozoma,

so around 1960,

dakle, oko 1960,

we had discovered that you could be XYY.

otkriveno je da se može imati XYY.

They discovered an XYY man.

Otkrili su muškarca sa XYY.

And to digress a little here,

Mala digresija,

it turns out that the model of "X equals girl and Y equals boy"

ispostavilo se da je model "X čini devojčicu a Y dečaka"

is really simplistic.

previše jednostavan.

You can actually be a whole bunch of different combinations of X and Y,

Može se imati nekoliko različitih kombinacija X i Y,

giving you, like, different types of biological sex.

koje mogu dati različite tipove biološkog pola.

You could be two Xs and two Ys together.

Možete imati dva X i dva Y, zajedno.

You could be four Xs, you could be five Xs,

Možete imati četiri X, možete imati pet X,

you could be XO.

možete imati XO.

And so I thought that was pretty crazy,

Meni je ovo delovalo potpuno ludo

because I was like,

i pomislila sam,

"Wow, this really upends a model of biological sex

"Ovo obara definiciju biološkog pola

I think most of us in this room have been taught."

o kojoj su većinu nas u ovoj prostoriji učili."

So a few years after they realized that you can be XYY,

Par godina nakon što su shvatili da se može imati XYY,

researchers go to a prison in Scotland,

naučnici su posetili zatvor u Škotskoj,

and they do genetic analysis of a bunch of the male prisoners.

i uradili genetičke analize gomili muških zatvorenika.

And they find a number of people who are XYY.

Našli su puno ljudi ljudi sa XYY.

And according to Sarah:

I, kako Sara kaže:

(Audio) SR: They just rushed to publish a theory

(Audio) SR: Požurili su da objave teoriju

suggesting that this extra Y chromosome

po kojoj bi taj dodatni Y hromozom

could explain criminality in some men.

mogao objasniti kriminalitet kod nekih muškaraca.

MW: Yeah.

MV: Da.

So the logic goes like this:

To ide po ovoj logici:

By this point, we're thinking Y is male.

U ovom trenutku, mišljenje je da je Y muški hromozom.

We think male is aggressive,

Mišljenje je i da su muškarci agresivni,

so Y must be aggression.

dakle, Y mora biti povezan s agresijom.

If you've got an extra Y, you must be crazy.

Ako imate koji Y viška, mora da ste ludi.

And like, we went nuts with this theory.

I tako, ova teorija je napravila haos.

We called it the supermale,

Nazvali smo je supermuškarac,

they started scanning more prisoners,

analizirali su još zatvorenika,

serial killers, boys.

serijskih ubica, dečaka.

And in all seriousness,

Bez šale,

there was actually a suggestion that we consider aborting XYY fetuses.

predloženo je čak i da se razmotri abortiranje XYY fetusa.

So in 1980,

U 1980,

this theory pretty much toppled, for a number of reasons.

ova teorija je propala, iz više razloga.

One,

Prvo,

there had been this really large study

napravljena je zaista velika studija

that basically showed there was no connection

koja je pokazala da nema povezanosti

between Y and violence,

između Y i nasilja,

I think we all saw that coming.

mislim da smo svi to očekivali.

And then, there was one other thing.

A onda se pojavila još jedna stvar.

(Audio) SR: Going back and looking at those original findings

(Audio) SR: Gledajući unazad i ponovo razmatrajući izvorna otkrića

in that high-security psychiatric institution,

iz te dobro obezbeđene psihijatrijske ustanove,

they had also found a high number of individuals

pronašli su i velik broj osoba

with an extra X chromosome.

sa jednim X hromozomom viška.

So these are XXY, as opposed to XYY.

Dakle, ovi su XXY, za razliku od XYY.

(Audio) MW: Really?

(Audio) MV: Zaista?

(Audio) SR: Yeah. Now, they never claimed

(Audio) SR: Da. Niko nije rekao

that the individuals with an extra X chromosome

da su osobe s viškom X hromozoma

were superfemales.

superžene.

They never investigated whether they had higher rates of violence.

Nikad nije istraživana učestalost nasilja kod tih osoba.

MW: Seems like kind of an oversight.

MV: Deluje mi kao propust.

I don't know.

Ne znam.

But I think it's interesting,

Mislim da je interesantno,

because what you see is if you start looking at these chromosomes

jer ako počnete da gledate na ove hromozome

through the lens of sex,

kroz prizmu pola,

what naturally falls in place behind

ono što postaje evidentno

is we look at them through the lens of gender,

je da ih mi posmatramo kroz prizmu roda,

and the traits that we associate with gender.

i osobina koje asociramo s rodom.

So men were violent,

Dakle muškarci su agresivni,

and Y explained why they were in prison.

i Y objašnjava zašto su završili u zatvoru.

The X did not do that,

X to ne radi,

because like, you know, what's X?

zato što, šta je uopšte X?

We don't associate it with violence.

Ne povezujemo ga s nasiljem.

And while we don't believe in supermales today --

Premda u današnje vreme ne verujemo u supermuškarce,

God, I hope we don't --

stvarno se nadam da je tako,

we don't believe in supermales today,

ne verujemo u supermuškarce,

there is a very similar conversation that's still happening

ali i dalje imamo sličnu priču koja je i dalje prisutna

around inherent violence in boys and biology.

oko urođene nasilnosti u dečaka, u biologiji.

So my next stop on the weird world of X and Y,

Moja sledeća stanica na putu kroz neobičan svet X i Y hromozoma,

or things feeling a little topsy-turvy, is 1985.

odnosno stvari koje su pošle naopako, je u 1985.

The World University Games were set to happen in Japan,

Univerzijada je te godine bila u Japanu,

and the Spanish hurdler María José Martínez-Patiño was scheduled to run.

i španska trkačica na prepone Marija Hoze Martinez-Patinjo je trebalo da trči.

She was like a hot shot, a rising superstar.

Ona je bila favorit, zvezda u usponu.

And the night before her race, they had her DNA scanned.

Veče pred njenu trku, uradili su joj DNK analizu.

Now at the time, this was a thing that they were doing,

U to vreme, to se tako radilo,

because they were like,

jer su rezonovali,

"OK, we don't want men covertly racing as women,

"ne želimo da muškarci prikriveno trče umesto žena,

so we're going to scan the women

testiraćemo žene

and make sure all their Xs line up."

da se uverimo da imaju normalan broj X."

And so I heard this story from Ruth Padawer

Ovu priču sam čula od Rut Padaver

who was a New York Times Magazine reporter

koja je tada bila reporter za Njujork Tajms Magazin

and she reported on María.

i izveštavala o Mariji.

(Audio) Ruth Padawer: So they tell her the chromosome test results were abnormal.

(Audio) Rut Padaver: Rekli su joj da rezultati DNK testa nisu bili normalni.

Although on the outside, she was fully female,

Premda je spolja izgledala kao žena,

she had XY chromosomes and these internal testes.

imala je XY hromozome i unutrašnje testise.

MW: They were like,

MV: Rekli su joj:

"We hate to break it to you, María, but you're actually a dude.

"Žao nam je, Marija, ali Vi ste zapravo muškarac.

You can't race with the ladies."

Ne možete se takmičiti sa ženama."

(Audio) RP: And so she's thrown off the national team,

(Audio) RP: I tako su je isključili iz reprezentacije,

she's expelled from the athletics residence,

izbačena je iz smeštaja za sportiste,

she's denied her scholarship,

uskraćena joj je stipendija,

a bunch of her friends dump her,

gomila prijatelja je ostavlja,

fellow athletes abandon her,

kolege sportisti je napuštaju,

she loses her medals, her records are revoked.

gubi svoje medalje, a rekordi su joj poništeni.

MW: So it turns out --

MV: I tako, ispostavilo se -

remember when I told you

sećate li se kako sam vam rekla

you can be a bunch of different combinations of X and Y --

da postoje mnogo različitih kombinacija X i Y,

you can also be XY and be female.

da možeš biti XY i žensko.

You can be XX and male.

Možeš biti XX i muško.

In María's case, she was something called androgen insensitive.

U Marijinom slučaju, ona nije reagovala na androgene hormone.

Which means that she did have some sort of internal testes --

To znači da ona jeste imala unutrašnje testise

they were making testosterone --

koji su proizvodili testosteron,

but her body couldn't use it.

ali njeno telo nije reagovalo na njega.

And so if you thought of testosterone as, like, a superpower,

Dakle, ako nam testosteron daje nekakvu supermoć,

she was not benefiting from it.

ona nije mogla da profitira od toga.

And so eventually,

Na kraju su joj dozvolili

sports authorities, like, let her back in,

da se vrati u sport,

but her career was done.

ali njena karijera je već bila gotova.

And in this instance you see how,

U ovom slučaju se vidi da,

if you assign sex to a specific place in the body,

ako se biološki pol određuje prema specifičnom delu tela,

or at least, like, this is what I saw, right?

barem se meni tako čini,

If you assign sex to a specific place in the body,

ako se biološki pol određuje prema specifičnom delu tela,

it somehow makes us think that we can go into a body,

deluje nam da možemo da pregledamo to telo,

look at a specific place

ispitamo to specifično mesto

and tell someone we know something more about them

i kažemo nekome da znamo nešto više o njima

than they know about themselves.

nego što oni sami znaju o sebi.

And that feels terrifying to me.

A to me užasava.

And we don't genetically test female athletes anymore,

Premda više ne rade genetičke testove na ženskim sportistima,

but you can see very similar conversations happening

imate vrlo slične diskusije

when we talk about testosterone in sports,

o korišćenju testosterona u sportu,

you can also see it in suggestions that we take transgender individuals

i predlaže se da se transrodne osobe

and we genetically analyze them and we tell them who they are.

genetički analiziraju i da im se kaže ko su.

That is real,

Ovo se stvarno dešava,

that is a conversation that has happened recently.

ova diskusija je nedavno otpočela.

The last place that I'll share with you

Poslednja tačka koju želim da podelim s vama,

where these chromosomes got complicated for me

i kad su ovi hromozomi postali prekomplikovani za mene,

is this one thing that Melissa told me.

je ovo što mi je Melisa saopštila.

(Audio) Wilson: You can't survive without an X chromosome.

(Audio) Vilson: Ne možete preživeti bez X hromozoma.

No matter your gonads, no matter your identity,

Bez obzira na vaše genitalije, vaš rodni identitet,

every single human being has to have an X chromosome,

svako ljudsko biće mora imati bar jedan X hromozom,

because without one, the rest of your body doesn't develop.

jer bez njega naše telo ne može da se razvije.

MW: Why do we call this the female chromosome?

MV: Zašto ga zovemo ženski hromozom?

OK, this is something I had never though about,

OK, o ovome nikad pre nisam razmišljala,

but literally, every single person in this audience has an X chromosome,

ali svaka osoba u ovoj publici ima X hromozom,

I'm not lying.

ne lažem vas.

Every single person on the planet has an X chromosome,

Svaka osoba na ovoj planeti ima X hromozom,

but no one is going around like, "This is the every-person chromosome."

ali niko ne kaže, "Ovo je svačiji hromozom."

You know?

Znate na šta mislim?

Like, somehow it's over here, the Y is over there,

On je kao negde ovde, Y je tamo,

and they must be really different,

mora da su stvarno različiti,

and I'm just like, it would be so much better

a meni se čini da bi bilo puno bolje

if it was the every-person chromosome.

kad bismo rekli da svi imamo ovaj hromozom.

And not just because I'm like, love you all and I want you all in,

Ne samo zato što vas ja sve volim i želim da se osećate prihvaćenima,

but because of what we're overlooking by the fact that we consider it female.

već zbog onoga što previđamo zato što ga smatramo ženskim.

Because I'm going to tell you one of the craziest things I found out.

Ispričaću vam jednu od najluđih stvari koju sam otkrila.

Which is, when you think about the X chromosome,

A to je, kad govorimo o X hromozomu,

of the almost 1,100 genes on the X chromosome,

od skoro 1100 gena na X hromozomu,

how many do you think have to do with sex and reproduction?

šta mislite koliko njih je odgovorno za pol i razmnožavanje?

Like, get a number in your head.

Probajte da dođete do broja.

Four percent.

Četiri procenta.

That means 96 percent of the rest of that chromosome

To znači da 96 procenata tog hromozoma

is doing something that has nothing to do with your gonads.

ima ulogu u nečemu što nema nikakve veze s vašim gonadama.

And I guess as all of these,

Kako su sve ove priče,

sort of, some of them social stories,

neke od njih priče o društvu,

some of them scientific stories, some of these facts,

neke od njih priče o nauci, neke od ovih činjenica

started to add up, I just thought, like,

počele da se gomilaju, upitala sam se

why are we calling these the sex chromosomes?

zašto ih nazivamo polni hromozomi?

Or if we are, like, maybe we all like that name,

U redu, ako je stvar u tome da nam se sviđa taj naziv,

should we just allow ourselves to think about them

da li bismo bar mogli da razmišljamo o njima

a little more broadly?

u malo širem kontekstu?

Because if we do,

I ako to uspemo,

like, what insights would we gain, as people, as scientists?

šta bismo sve mogli da otkrijemo kao ljudi i kao naučnici?

And we're at this point where we're thinking about, like,

Stigli smo do te tačke gde razmišljamo

how do we want to teach science,

na koji način želimo da predajemo nauku,

what do we want to fund,

šta želimo da finansiramo,

like, who do we want to be as a society, you know?

kakvo društvo želimo da budemo, znate?

And I just wondered if it wasn't a moment to rethink the biology of X and Y,

I pitala sam se da li je sada taj momenat da se preispita biologija X i Y,

and at the very least,

i, u najmanju ruku,

to remember, like, the footnotes of history,

da se podsetimo istorijske činjenice

which is that the dude who came up with the phrase "sex chromosome,"

da je tip koji je smislio naziv "polni hromozomi"

actually was like, "Hey, everyone, just remember, this is just,"

zapravo hteo da kaže, "ljudi, ne zaboravite, ovo je samo,"

and I quote, "a form of shorthand."

citiram, "jedan oblik skraćenice".

We should not take it literally.

Ne bi trebalo da ga shvatimo doslovno.

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(Aplauz).