The weird history of the "sex chromosomes" | Molly Webster

Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Krystian Aparta

Prevoditelj: Denis Krndija Recezent: Sanda L

OK.

OK.

So we are going to start in 1891,

Priča počinje 1891. godine,

when a German scientist was looking through a microscope

kada je jedan njemački znanstvenik pomoću mikroskopa promatrao

at insect cells.

stanice insekata.

And he saw something kind of funny.

I vidio nešto pomalo neobično.

At the center of the cells, there was this dark stuff.

U središtu tih stanica bio je neki tamni materijal.

No one had ever seen it before.

Nitko to prije nije vidio.

And he noticed that as the cells would multiply and divide,

I primijetio je da bi tijekom stanične diobe

it would go into some of the new cells

materijal prešao u neke od novih stanica,

but not the others.

ali ne u sve.

He didn't know what it was, so he gave it a really great name.

Pošto nije znao o čemu se radi, dao mu je zaista sjajno ime.

He called it the "X element."

Nazvao ga je "X element".

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

And he was like, "We'll just fill in that X later."

I rekao je, "Preimenovat ćemo mi taj X kasnije."

And then, fast-forward 10 years later,

I onda, 10 godina kasnije,

and there is an American scientist,

u priču ulazi jedna američka znanstvenica,

and she is looking through her microscope,

koja opet pomoć mikroskopa promatra

also at insect cells.

stanice insekata.

And she sees something funny.

I vidi nešto neobično.

There's more of this dark stuff.

Ima još tog tamnog materijala.

And it's kind of tiny,

Nekako je sićušan

it's hanging out near the X element.

i nalazi se pored X elementa.

And eventually, someone was like,

Na kraju je netko rekao,

"Well, if that one thing's called X,

"Ako se ovaj prvi zove X,

should we call this other thing Y?"

zašto ne bismo ovaj drugi nazvali Y?"

And like that, (Snaps fingers)

I tako (puca prstima)

the sex chromosomes had been discovered.

su otkriveni spolni kromosomi.

So chromosomes,

Kromosomi,

you probably all know what they are,

vjerojatno već svi znate što su,

but I will tell you anyways.

ali ću vam svejedno reći.

They're made up of DNA --

Oni su sastavljeni od DNA.

everything has it, it's the blueprint of life,

Ona je u svemu, ona je osnova svega živoga,

we've got rats, we've got trees,

bili to štakori, drveće,

we've got insects, we've got humans.

insekti, ili ljudi.

And in the case of human chromosomes,

Što se tiče ljudskih kromosoma,

geneticist Melissa Wilson broke it down for me like this.

genetičarka Melissa Wilson mi je to ovako protumačila.

(Audio) Melissa Wilson: Typically, you'll get one copy of every chromosome

(Audio) Melissa Wilson: U pravilu, jednu kopiju svakog kromosoma dobit ćeš

from your genetic mom

od svoje biološke majke

and one copy of every chromosome from your genetic dad,

i jednu kopiju svakog kromosoma od svog biološkog oca.

and we have 22 of these

Imamo ukupno 22 para ovih kopija -

that you get one copy from mom and one copy from dad.

jednu dobivamo od majke i jednu od oca.

And then there's a 23rd pair, X and Y.

No tu je i 23. par, X i Y.

Molly Webster: So while all the other chromosomes are numbered,

Molly Webster: Iako su svi ostali kromosomi obilježeni brojevima,

one through 22,

od 1 do 22,

we do not call X and Y 23.

X i Y nisu obilježeni kao 23.

I like to think that they are waiting for, like, a LeBron James to come along.

Kao da čekaju LeBron Jamesa da to riješi.

But in this instance, they were like,

Ali u ovom slučaju, rekli su,

"We're just going to keep the letters,

"Zadržat ćemo slova

and then we'll give them a title."

i onda ćemo im dati naziv."

They called them the sex chromosomes.

Nazvali su ih spolnim kromosomima.

Now I would wager that in the United States,

Kladim se da su u SAD-u

these are the most well-known chromosomes

ovo najpoznatiji kromosomi

for one simple fact:

iz jednog prostog razloga:

that we say X equals "girl," and Y equals "boy" --

X izjednačavamo s "djevojčica", a Y s "dječak",

that they are responsible for sex.

zato što su odgovorni za spol.

And -- and I had to learn this --

I, ovo sam morala naučiti,

but when I'm talking about "sex" here,

kada ovdje govorim o "spolu",

I'm talking about the way biology gives us gonads,

govorim o tome kako nam biologija daje genitalije,

which are our ovaries and our testes --

odnosno naše jajnike i testise,

I'm not talking about gender, which is how we identify.

ne govorim o rodu s kojim se identificiramo.

And so, as a reporter at the show --

Kao reporterka u emisiji

"Radiolab," the audio documentary program I work for --

"Radiolab", to je radijska dokumentarna emisija za koju radim,

I was like, what's up with these sex chromosomes?

pitala sam što se zbiva s tim spolnim kromosomima?

You know, that's kind of my job, I think things are weird,

Znate, to je u opisu mog posla, naiđem na nešto neobično,

onda nazovem ljude

and then I get to call people about them

i postavljam pitanja, a oni daju odgovore.

and ask questions, and then hopefully they answer.

U ovom slučaju, puno ljudi je odgovorilo.

And in this case, a lot of people answered.

And in the two years I had of reporting on X and Y,

I tijekom dvije godine mog izvještavanja o X i Y

as part of "Gonads," the series on sex and gender

u sklopu "Gonada", serije emisija o spolu i rodu

I ended up doing for "Radiolab,"

koju sam radila za "Radiolab",

I found out that these two chromosomes live in a world that is unexpected,

shvatila sam da ova dva kromosoma obitavaju u svijetu koji je neočekivan,

a little unsettling;

pomalo uznemirujući;

where things that I thought were facts

gdje su stvari koje sam smatrala činjenicama,

were, like, twisted in ways I hadn't seen before.

izokrenute na načine koje nisam mogla očekivati.

And the world goes so far beyond the boundaries of sex,

Pošto svijet probija granice spola,

I was like,

pomislila sam,

"Maybe we should all talk about this."

"Možda bismo trebali razgovarati o ovome."

So, you're you all,

I, tu smo,

we're all going to talk about it.

i razgovarat ćemo o ovome.

And for me,

Za mene,

the true story of X and Y starts with their name.

prava priča o X i Y počinje njihovim imenom.

So within years of being discovered,

Par godina nakon njihovog otkrića,

these two little chromosomes had acquired more than 10 different names.

ova dva mala kromosoma su dobila više od 10 različitih naziva.

There was diplosome and heterochromosome

Bili su tu diplozom, heterokromosom

and idiochromosome,

i idiokromosom,

and most of the names had to do with their structure, their shape,

i većina ovih naziva je povezana s njihovom strukturom, njihovim oblikom,

their size.

njihovom veličinom.

And then there was "sex chromosome,"

A onda je došao naziv "spolni kromosom",

which they had been given because of the fact

koji im je dan zbog činjenice

that we had started seeing that the X would go with the females,

da smo uvidjeli da X ide zajedno sa ženskim,

and the Y would often go with the males.

a da Y često ide s muškim spolom.

But scientists were like,

Ali znanstvenici su se pitali,

"Do we really want to call them sex chromosomes?"

"Želimo li ih stvarno nazvati spolnim kromosomima?"

And science historian Sarah Richardson is the one who told me this story.

Povjesničarka znanosti Sarah Richardson mi je ovo rekla.

(Audio) Sarah Richardson: For three decades, scientists were like,

(Audio) Sarah Richardson: Tri desetljeća su znanstvenici govorili,

"You should not call them the sex chromosomes.

"Ne biste ih trebali zvati spolnim kromosomima.

X i Y imaju puno funkcija

The X and Y have many functions,

and you wouldn't assume that a single chromosome

i teško je zamisliti da jedan cijeli kromosom

controls a single trait.

kontrolira samo jednu osobinu.

Imagine calling one chromosome the 'urogenital chromosome,'

Zamislite kad bi neki kromosom nazvali "urogenitalni kromosom",

or the 'liver chromosome.'"

ili "jetreni kromosom".

MW: Scientists, if you dig into the history --

MV: Znanstvenici su, ako pogledate kroz povijest -

it's really cool, you should --

to je stvarno cool i trebali biste -

were hesitant to, like, commit to such a specific name

oklijevali prihvatiti tako specifičan naziv

and such a powerfully connotated name.

s tako jakom konotacijom.

There was a fear that it would actually be really limiting --

Postojala je bojazan da bi to zapravo bilo jako ograničavajuće,

maybe to science, maybe to society --

možda prema znanosti, možda prema društvu,

but the fear was in the room.

ali bojazan je bila prisutna.

And you can see they ended up getting "sex chromosome" --

I eto, kako vidite, na kraju imamo "spolne kromosome".

it's like a pretty juicy title,

To je atraktivan naziv

it popularized genetics, you know?

i popularizirao je genetiku.

But in the 100-year history since we settled on that name,

Ali ima već 100 godina otkako smo prihvatili taj naziv

you can see it starts to get a little complicated.

i vidjet ćete da situacija počinje biti složena.

So around 1960 --

Oko 1960. godine,

this is going to be our first stop

to će biti naša prva stanica na putu

on the complicated world of the sex chromosomes --

kroz složen svijet spolnih kromosoma,

so around 1960,

oko 1960. godine

we had discovered that you could be XYY.

otkriveno je da se može imati XYY.

They discovered an XYY man.

Otkrili su muškarca sa XYY.

And to digress a little here,

Mala digresija,

it turns out that the model of "X equals girl and Y equals boy"

ispostavilo se da je model "X čini djevojčicu, a Y dječaka"

is really simplistic.

prejednostavan.

You can actually be a whole bunch of different combinations of X and Y,

Može se imati nekoliko različitih kombinacija X i Y,

giving you, like, different types of biological sex.

koje mogu dati različite tipove biološkog spola.

You could be two Xs and two Ys together.

Možete imati dva X i dva Y, zajedno.

You could be four Xs, you could be five Xs,

Možete imati četiri X, možete imati pet X,

you could be XO.

možete imati XO.

And so I thought that was pretty crazy,

Meni se ovo činilo potpuno ludo

because I was like,

i pomislila sam,

"Wow, this really upends a model of biological sex

"Ovo obara definiciju biološkog spola

I think most of us in this room have been taught."

o kojoj su većinu nas u ovoj prostoriji učili."

So a few years after they realized that you can be XYY,

Nekoliko godina nakon što su shvatili da se može imati XYY,

researchers go to a prison in Scotland,

znanstvenici su posjetili zatvor u Škotskoj

and they do genetic analysis of a bunch of the male prisoners.

i napravili genetičke analize gomili muških zatvorenika.

And they find a number of people who are XYY.

Našli su puno ljudi s XYY.

And according to Sarah:

I, kako Sarah kaže:

(Audio) SR: They just rushed to publish a theory

(Audio) SR: Požurili su objaviti teoriju

suggesting that this extra Y chromosome

po kojoj bi taj dodatni Y kromosom

could explain criminality in some men.

mogao objasniti kriminalitet kod nekih muškaraca.

MW: Yeah.

MW: Da.

So the logic goes like this:

To ide po ovoj logici:

By this point, we're thinking Y is male.

U ovom trenutku, mišljenje je da je Y muški kromosom.

We think male is aggressive,

Mišljenje je i da su muškarci agresivni,

so Y must be aggression.

stoga, Y mora biti povezan s agresijom.

If you've got an extra Y, you must be crazy.

Ako imate koji Y viška, sigurno ste ludi.

And like, we went nuts with this theory.

I tako je ova teorija napravila kaos.

We called it the supermale,

Nazvali smo je supermuškarac,

they started scanning more prisoners,

analizirali su još zatvorenika,

serial killers, boys.

serijskih ubojica, dječaka.

And in all seriousness,

Bez šale,

there was actually a suggestion that we consider aborting XYY fetuses.

predloženo je čak i da se razmotri abortiranje XYY fetusa.

So in 1980,

Stoga je 1980. godine

this theory pretty much toppled, for a number of reasons.

ova teorija propala, iz više razloga.

One,

Prvo,

there had been this really large study

napravljena je doista velika studija

that basically showed there was no connection

koja je pokazala da nema povezanosti

between Y and violence,

između Y i nasilja,

I think we all saw that coming.

mislim da smo svi to očekivali.

And then, there was one other thing.

A onda se pojavila još jedna stvar.

(Audio) SR: Going back and looking at those original findings

(Audio) SR: Gledajući unatrag i ponovno razmatrajući izvorna otkrića

in that high-security psychiatric institution,

iz te dobro osigurane psihijatrijske ustanove,

they had also found a high number of individuals

pronašli su i veliki broj osoba

with an extra X chromosome.

s jednim X kromosomom viška.

So these are XXY, as opposed to XYY.

Znači, ovi su XXY, za razliku od XYY.

(Audio) MW: Really?

(Audio) MW: Doista?

(Audio) SR: Yeah. Now, they never claimed

(Audio) SR: Da. Nitko nije rekao

that the individuals with an extra X chromosome

da su osobe s viškom X kromosoma

were superfemales.

superžene.

They never investigated whether they had higher rates of violence.

Nikad nije istraživana učestalost nasilja kod tih osoba.

MW: Seems like kind of an oversight.

MV: Čini se da je to propust.

I don't know.

Ne znam.

But I think it's interesting,

Mislim da je zanimljivo,

because what you see is if you start looking at these chromosomes

jer ako počnete promatrati ove kromosome

through the lens of sex,

kroz prizmu spola,

what naturally falls in place behind

ono što postaje očigledno

is we look at them through the lens of gender,

je da ih mi promatramo kroz prizmu roda

and the traits that we associate with gender.

i osobina koje asociramo s rodom.

So men were violent,

Muškarci su agresivni

and Y explained why they were in prison.

i Y objašnjava zašto su završili u zatvoru.

The X did not do that,

X to ne radi,

because like, you know, what's X?

jer, što je uopće X?

We don't associate it with violence.

Ne povezujemo ga s nasiljem.

And while we don't believe in supermales today --

Iako u današnje vrijeme ne vjerujemo u supermuškarce,

God, I hope we don't --

stvarno se nadam da je tako,

we don't believe in supermales today,

ne vjerujemo u supermuškarce,

there is a very similar conversation that's still happening

ali imamo sličnu priču koja je još uvijek prisutna

around inherent violence in boys and biology.

oko urođene nasilnosti kod dječaka, u biologiji.

So my next stop on the weird world of X and Y,

Moja sljedeća stanica na putu kroz neobičan svijet X i Y kromosoma,

or things feeling a little topsy-turvy, is 1985.

odnosno stvari koje su pošle naopako, jest 1985. godina.

The World University Games were set to happen in Japan,

Univerzijada je te godine bila u Japanu

and the Spanish hurdler María José Martínez-Patiño was scheduled to run.

i španjolska trkačica na prepone Maria Jose Martinez-Patino je trebala trčati.

She was like a hot shot, a rising superstar.

Ona je bila favorit, zvijezda u usponu.

And the night before her race, they had her DNA scanned.

Večer prije njezine utrke, rađena joj je DNA analiza.

Now at the time, this was a thing that they were doing,

U to vrijeme, to se tako radilo,

because they were like,

jer je stav bio:

"OK, we don't want men covertly racing as women,

"Ne želimo da muškarci prikriveno trče umjesto žena,

so we're going to scan the women

stoga ćemo testirati žene

and make sure all their Xs line up."

kako bismo se uvjerili da imaju normalan broj X."

And so I heard this story from Ruth Padawer

Ovu priču sam čula od Ruth Padawer

who was a New York Times Magazine reporter

koja je tada bila reporterka za New York Times magazin

and she reported on María.

i izvještavala o Mariji.

(Audio) Ruth Padawer: So they tell her the chromosome test results were abnormal.

(Audio) Ruth Padawer: Rekli su joj da rezultati DNA testa nisu bili normalni.

Although on the outside, she was fully female,

Iako je izvana izgledala kao žena,

she had XY chromosomes and these internal testes.

imala je XY kromosome i unutarnje testise.

MW: They were like,

MW: Rekli su joj:

"We hate to break it to you, María, but you're actually a dude.

"Žao nam je, Maria, ali Vi ste zapravo muškarac.

You can't race with the ladies."

Ne možete se utrkivati sa ženama."

(Audio) RP: And so she's thrown off the national team,

(Audio) RP: I tako su je isključili iz reprezentacije,

she's expelled from the athletics residence,

izbačena je iz smještaja za sportaše,

she's denied her scholarship,

uskraćena joj je stipendija,

a bunch of her friends dump her,

hrpa prijatelja je napuštaju,

fellow athletes abandon her,

kolege sportaši je ostavljaju,

she loses her medals, her records are revoked.

gubi svoje medalje, a rekordi su joj poništeni.

MW: So it turns out --

MW: I tako, ispostavilo se -

sjećate li se kako sam vam rekla

remember when I told you

da ima mnogo različitih kombinacija X i Y

you can be a bunch of different combinations of X and Y --

- možeš biti XY i žensko.

you can also be XY and be female.

You can be XX and male.

Možeš biti XX i muško.

In María's case, she was something called androgen insensitive.

U Marijinom slučaju, ona nije reagirala na androgene hormone.

Which means that she did have some sort of internal testes --

To znači da je ona imala unutarnje testise

they were making testosterone --

koji su proizvodili testosteron,

but her body couldn't use it.

ali njeno tijelo nije reagiralo na njega.

And so if you thought of testosterone as, like, a superpower,

Stoga, ako nam testosteron daje nekakvu supermoć,

she was not benefiting from it.

ona nije imala koristi od toga.

And so eventually,

Na kraju su joj dopustili

sports authorities, like, let her back in,

da se vrati u sport,

but her career was done.

ali njena karijera je već bila gotova.

And in this instance you see how,

U ovom slučaju se vidi da,

if you assign sex to a specific place in the body,

ako se biološki spol određuje prema specifičnom dijelu tijela,

or at least, like, this is what I saw, right?

makar se meni tako čini,

If you assign sex to a specific place in the body,

ako se biološki spol određuje prema specifičnom dijelu tijela,

it somehow makes us think that we can go into a body,

čini nam se da možemo pregledati to tijelo,

look at a specific place

ispitati to specifično mjesto

and tell someone we know something more about them

i reći nekome da znamo nešto više o njima

than they know about themselves.

nego što oni sami znaju o sebi.

And that feels terrifying to me.

A to me užasava.

And we don't genetically test female athletes anymore,

Premda više ne rade genetičke testove na sportašicama,

but you can see very similar conversations happening

imate vrlo slične diskusije

when we talk about testosterone in sports,

o uporabi testosterona u sportu,

you can also see it in suggestions that we take transgender individuals

predlaže se i da se transrodne osobe

and we genetically analyze them and we tell them who they are.

genetički analiziraju i da im se kaže tko su.

That is real,

Ovo se stvarno događa,

that is a conversation that has happened recently.

ova diskusija je nedavno započela.

The last place that I'll share with you

Posljednja točka koju želim podijeliti s vama,

where these chromosomes got complicated for me

i kad su ovi kromosomi postali prekomplicirani za mene,

jest ovo što mi je Melissa priopćila.

is this one thing that Melissa told me.

(Audio) Wilson: You can't survive without an X chromosome.

(Audio) Wilson: Ne možete preživjeti bez X kromosoma.

No matter your gonads, no matter your identity,

Bez obzira na vaše genitalije, vaš rodni identitet,

svako ljudsko biće mora imati bar jedan X kromosom,

every single human being has to have an X chromosome,

jer bez njega se naše tijelo ne može razviti.

because without one, the rest of your body doesn't develop.

MW: Zašto ga zovemo ženski kromosom?

MW: Why do we call this the female chromosome?

OK, this is something I had never though about,

OK, o ovome nikad prije nisam razmišljala,

ali svaka osoba u ovoj publici ima X kromosom,

but literally, every single person in this audience has an X chromosome,

ne lažem vas.

I'm not lying.

Svaka osoba na ovom planetu ima X kromosom,

Every single person on the planet has an X chromosome,

ali nitko ne kaže, "Ovo je svačiji kromosom."

but no one is going around like, "This is the every-person chromosome."

Znate na što mislim?

You know?

On je kao negdje tu, Y je tamo,

Like, somehow it's over here, the Y is over there,

and they must be really different,

mora da su stvarno različiti,

and I'm just like, it would be so much better

a meni se čini da bi bilo puno bolje

kad bismo rekli da svi imamo ovaj kromosom.

if it was the every-person chromosome.

Ne samo zato što vas ja sve volim i želim da se osjećate prihvaćenima,

And not just because I'm like, love you all and I want you all in,

but because of what we're overlooking by the fact that we consider it female.

već zbog onoga što previđamo zato što ga smatramo ženskim.

Because I'm going to tell you one of the craziest things I found out.

Ispričat ću vam jednu od najluđih stvari koje sam otkrila.

Which is, when you think about the X chromosome,

A to je, kad govorimo o X kromosomu,

of the almost 1,100 genes on the X chromosome,

od skoro 1100 gena na X kromosomu,

how many do you think have to do with sex and reproduction?

što mislite koliko njih je odgovorno za spol i razmnožavanje?

Like, get a number in your head.

Probajte doći do broja.

Four percent.

Četiri posto.

That means 96 percent of the rest of that chromosome

To znači da 96 posto tog kromosoma

is doing something that has nothing to do with your gonads.

ima ulogu u nečemu što nema nikakve veze s vašim gonadama.

And I guess as all of these,

Kako su se sve ove priče,

sort of, some of them social stories,

neke od njih su priče o društvu,

some of them scientific stories, some of these facts,

neke od njih su priče o znanosti, neke su činjenice,

started to add up, I just thought, like,

počele nakupljati, upitala sam se

why are we calling these the sex chromosomes?

zašto ih zovemo spolni kromosomi?

Or if we are, like, maybe we all like that name,

U redu, ako je stvar u tome da nam se sviđa taj naziv,

should we just allow ourselves to think about them

bismo li bar mogli razmišljati o njima

a little more broadly?

u malo širem kontekstu?

Because if we do,

I ako to uspijemo,

like, what insights would we gain, as people, as scientists?

što bismo sve mogli otkriti kao ljudi i kao znanstvenici?

And we're at this point where we're thinking about, like,

Stigli smo do te točke gdje razmišljamo

how do we want to teach science,

na koji način želimo podučavati znanost,

what do we want to fund,

što želimo financirati,

kakvo društvo želimo biti, znate?

like, who do we want to be as a society, you know?

And I just wondered if it wasn't a moment to rethink the biology of X and Y,

I pitala sam se je li došao trenutak da se preispita biologija X i Y,

and at the very least,

i, u najmanju ruku,

to remember, like, the footnotes of history,

da se podsjetimo povijesne činjenice,

which is that the dude who came up with the phrase "sex chromosome,"

da je tip koji je smislio naziv "spolni kromosom"

actually was like, "Hey, everyone, just remember, this is just,"

zapravo htio reći, "ljudi, ne zaboravite, ovo je samo,"

and I quote, "a form of shorthand."

citiram, "jedan oblik skraćenice".

We should not take it literally.

Ne bismo ga trebali doslovno shvatiti.

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(Pljesak).