The weird history of the "sex chromosomes" | Molly Webster

Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Krystian Aparta

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Yen-Chen Chu

OK.

好，

So we are going to start in 1891,

我們要從 1891 年說起。

when a German scientist was looking through a microscope

那時一名德國科學家，

正在用顯微鏡看昆蟲細胞。

at insect cells.

And he saw something kind of funny.

他看到了很奇怪的東西，

At the center of the cells, there was this dark stuff.

在細胞的中央，有個暗色物質，

No one had ever seen it before.

這東西以前從來沒有人見過。

And he noticed that as the cells would multiply and divide,

他注意到，當細胞增殖或分裂時，

it would go into some of the new cells

這東西會進入某些新細胞， 而不是其他細胞。

but not the others.

He didn't know what it was, so he gave it a really great name.

他不知道那是什麼， 便取了個很棒的名字：

他稱之為「X 元素」。

He called it the "X element."

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And he was like, "We'll just fill in that X later."

他心想：「我們之後 再把 X 填上就好。」

And then, fast-forward 10 years later,

這件事發生之後十年，

and there is an American scientist,

有一位美國科學家，

and she is looking through her microscope,

她也用她的顯微鏡，

also at insect cells.

觀察了昆蟲細胞。

And she sees something funny.

她看見了奇怪的景象：

There's more of this dark stuff.

更多這種暗色的東西。

And it's kind of tiny,

它蠻小的，就在 X 元素附近。

it's hanging out near the X element.

And eventually, someone was like,

於是有人突發奇想： 「既然那東西叫做 X，

"Well, if that one thing's called X,

should we call this other thing Y?"

就把這個叫做 Y 吧？」

And like that, (Snaps fingers)

就那樣（彈指），

the sex chromosomes had been discovered.

性染色體就這樣被發現了。

So chromosomes,

各位可能都知道染色體是什麼，

you probably all know what they are,

but I will tell you anyways.

但我還是要再說明一下。

They're made up of DNA --

它們是由 DNA 組成，

everything has it, it's the blueprint of life,

萬物都有它，它是生命的藍圖，

we've got rats, we've got trees,

它出現在老鼠、樹木、

we've got insects, we've got humans.

昆蟲和人類身上。

And in the case of human chromosomes,

就人類染色體而言，

geneticist Melissa Wilson broke it down for me like this.

遺傳學家梅麗莎·威爾森 這樣跟我說明：

(Audio) Melissa Wilson: Typically, you'll get one copy of every chromosome

（語音）梅：通常你身上會具有，

一份你親生母親的基因，

from your genetic mom

and one copy of every chromosome from your genetic dad,

和一份你親生父親的基因。

and we have 22 of these

而我們總共有 22 條染色體，

that you get one copy from mom and one copy from dad.

你會從母親那裡得到一份， 父親那裡得到一份。

And then there's a 23rd pair, X and Y.

接著還有第 23 對，X 與 Y。

Molly Webster: So while all the other chromosomes are numbered,

茉：所有其他染色體，

都有編號，從 1 到 22。

one through 22,

we do not call X and Y 23.

但我們不會把 X 和 Y 編為第 23 對染色體。

I like to think that they are waiting for, like, a LeBron James to come along.

我喜歡把它們想像成 還沒歸隊的明星球員，

But in this instance, they were like,

但實際狀況比較像是，

"We're just going to keep the letters,

「我們先保留那些字母，

and then we'll give them a title."

之後再給它們一個名稱。」

They called them the sex chromosomes.

它們被稱為性染色體。

Now I would wager that in the United States,

我敢說在美國，

these are the most well-known chromosomes

性染色體是最知名的染色體。

for one simple fact:

原因很簡單：

that we say X equals "girl," and Y equals "boy" --

我們說 X 等於「女孩」， Y 等於「男孩」，

that they are responsible for sex.

它們會決定性別。

And -- and I had to learn this --

這點是我學來的。

but when I'm talking about "sex" here,

但是當我在這裡說到「性別」時，

I'm talking about the way biology gives us gonads,

我指的是生物學賦予我們的性腺，

which are our ovaries and our testes --

也就是卵巢和睪丸，

I'm not talking about gender, which is how we identify.

並不是指社會性別認同。

And so, as a reporter at the show --

身為節目中的記者，

"Radiolab," the audio documentary program I work for --

我為《Radiolab》 這個紀錄性質的電台節目工作。

I was like, what's up with these sex chromosomes?

我很好奇，這些性染色體是怎麼回事？

You know, that's kind of my job, I think things are weird,

那算是我的工作，當我發現怪事時，

我可以打電話問別人這些事， 希望他們能回答。

and then I get to call people about them

and ask questions, and then hopefully they answer.

在這個例子中，很多人回答了。

And in this case, a lot of people answered.

And in the two years I had of reporting on X and Y,

我報導 X 和 Y 染色體的 這兩年內，

as part of "Gonads," the series on sex and gender

我後來為《Radiolab》

做了一個關於生物和社會性別的 系列報導《性腺》。

I ended up doing for "Radiolab,"

I found out that these two chromosomes live in a world that is unexpected,

我發現這兩個染色體所處的世界，

是我未預期的，有點讓人不安。

a little unsettling;

where things that I thought were facts

在那裡，我以為的事實，

were, like, twisted in ways I hadn't seen before.

都以我從未見過的方式被扭曲了，

And the world goes so far beyond the boundaries of sex,

這個世界超越了性別的界線。

I was like,

我心想：

"Maybe we should all talk about this."

「也許我們應該要談談這點。」

So, you're you all,

所以在座的各位，

we're all going to talk about it.

請和我一起來談談這一點。

And for me,

對我來說，

the true story of X and Y starts with their name.

X 和 Y 的真實故事， 要從它們的名字說起。

So within years of being discovered,

在被發現後的幾年之內，

these two little chromosomes had acquired more than 10 different names.

這兩個小小染色體就得到了， 至少十種不同的名字。

There was diplosome and heterochromosome

這些名字包括雙中心體、

異染色體、副染色體......

and idiochromosome,

and most of the names had to do with their structure, their shape,

大部分名字的命名根據是，

它們的結構、形狀，和大小。

their size.

And then there was "sex chromosome,"

接著有人提出了「性染色體」。

which they had been given because of the fact

命名的依據是，

我們開始發現 X 會出現在女性身上，

that we had started seeing that the X would go with the females,

and the Y would often go with the males.

Y 則通常會在男性身上。

But scientists were like,

但科學家心想：

"Do we really want to call them sex chromosomes?"

「我們真的要叫它們性染色體嗎？」

And science historian Sarah Richardson is the one who told me this story.

這個故事是科學歷史學家 莎拉·理查森告訴我的：

(Audio) Sarah Richardson: For three decades, scientists were like,

（語音）莎： 這三十年來，科學家認為，

"You should not call them the sex chromosomes.

「你不該叫它們性染色體。

X 和 Y 有許多功能，

The X and Y have many functions,

and you wouldn't assume that a single chromosome

你不能假設單一染色體，

controls a single trait.

控制單一特性。

Imagine calling one chromosome the 'urogenital chromosome,'

想像一下，把一個染色體 稱為『泌尿生殖染色體』，

or the 'liver chromosome.'"

或『肝染色體』。」

MW: Scientists, if you dig into the history --

茉：科學家們如果去挖掘這段歷史──

it's really cool, you should --

很酷，你們應該試試──

were hesitant to, like, commit to such a specific name

會猶豫是否要用，

這麼明確、有暗示的名字。

and such a powerfully connotated name.

There was a fear that it would actually be really limiting --

他們害怕這個名字顯得太狹隘，

maybe to science, maybe to society --

無論是從科學或社會的角度來說，

but the fear was in the room.

但這並沒有改變事實。

And you can see they ended up getting "sex chromosome" --

各位已經知道他們 最後選了「性染色體」。

it's like a pretty juicy title,

這是個很生動的名稱，

it popularized genetics, you know?

它讓遺傳學變通俗了。

But in the 100-year history since we settled on that name,

但，

在我們確定要用 那個名字之後的一百年內，

you can see it starts to get a little complicated.

各位可以發現情況開始變複雜了。

So around 1960 --

1960 年左右，

this is going to be our first stop

在討論複雜的性染色體之前， 我們首先要了解一件事。

on the complicated world of the sex chromosomes --

so around 1960,

1960 年左右，

we had discovered that you could be XYY.

我們發現人也有可能是 XYY。

They discovered an XYY man.

他們找到了一位 有 XYY 染色體的男性。

And to digress a little here,

我離題一下，

it turns out that the model of "X equals girl and Y equals boy"

後來發現「X 等於女孩， Y 等於男孩」這個模型，

is really simplistic.

是過度簡化了。

You can actually be a whole bunch of different combinations of X and Y,

X 和 Y 可以有許多不同組合，

giving you, like, different types of biological sex.

讓你擁有不同的生物性別。

You could be two Xs and two Ys together.

你可以同時有兩個 X 和兩個 Y，

You could be four Xs, you could be five Xs,

你可以有 四個 X、五個 X、或 XO。

you could be XO.

And so I thought that was pretty crazy,

我覺得那很瘋狂。

because I was like,

我心想：「這簡直顛覆了大部分人

"Wow, this really upends a model of biological sex

以前學過的生物性別模型。」

I think most of us in this room have been taught."

So a few years after they realized that you can be XYY,

發現性染色體 也可以是 XYY 組合之後，

researchers go to a prison in Scotland,

過了幾年，研究者 前往蘇格蘭一所監獄，

and they do genetic analysis of a bunch of the male prisoners.

針對一群男性囚犯做基因分析，

And they find a number of people who are XYY.

他們發現有不少人是 XYY。

And according to Sarah:

莎拉的說法是：

(Audio) SR: They just rushed to publish a theory

（語音）莎： 他們趕著出版一個理論，

suggesting that this extra Y chromosome

這個理論指出， 這個多餘的 Y 染色體，

could explain criminality in some men.

或許可以解釋某些男性的犯罪動機。

MW: Yeah.

茉：是的，

So the logic goes like this:

所以這個邏輯是：

By this point, we're thinking Y is male.

目前為止，我們認為 Y 等於男性，

We think male is aggressive,

我們認為男性是好鬥的，

so Y must be aggression.

所以 Y 必定就代表好鬥。

If you've got an extra Y, you must be crazy.

如果你又多了一個 Y， 你一定是瘋子。

And like, we went nuts with this theory.

我們為這個理論而瘋狂，

We called it the supermale,

我們把它稱為超級男性。

they started scanning more prisoners,

他們開始掃瞄更多囚犯的基因，

serial killers, boys.

連環殺手、男孩......

And in all seriousness,

還有人非常嚴肅地建議，

there was actually a suggestion that we consider aborting XYY fetuses.

有 XYY 的嬰兒胚胎 應動手術讓它流產。

So in 1980,

在1980 年，

this theory pretty much toppled, for a number of reasons.

這個理論差不多被推翻了。

這有好幾個理由：

One,

第一，

there had been this really large study

有相當多研究，

that basically showed there was no connection

基本上都證明 Y 染色體和暴力沒有關聯，

between Y and violence,

I think we all saw that coming.

我想這在我們預料之中。

And then, there was one other thing.

接著另一點......

(Audio) SR: Going back and looking at those original findings

（語音）莎： 回頭去看最初的研究發現，

in that high-security psychiatric institution,

在戒備森嚴的 精神醫療機構進行的實驗中，

they had also found a high number of individuals

他們也發現，

有許多人多了一個 X 染色體。

with an extra X chromosome.

So these are XXY, as opposed to XYY.

相對於 XYY，這些人是 XXY。

(Audio) MW: Really?

（語音）茉：真的？

(Audio) SR: Yeah. Now, they never claimed

（語音）莎：是的。他們從未宣稱，

that the individuals with an extra X chromosome

多一個 X 染色體的人 是超級女性。

were superfemales.

They never investigated whether they had higher rates of violence.

他們從來沒有探究這些人， 是否也有比較多的暴力衝動。

MW: Seems like kind of an oversight.

茉：似乎是個疏忽，我不知道，

I don't know.

But I think it's interesting,

但我覺得很有意思。

because what you see is if you start looking at these chromosomes

因為，

你會發現，

若你開始透過生物性別的濾鏡 來看這些染色體，

through the lens of sex,

what naturally falls in place behind

自然而然也會把它們

is we look at them through the lens of gender,

和社會性別聯繫起來。

and the traits that we associate with gender.

以及我們認為 和社會性別有關的那些特性。

So men were violent,

所以，既然男性是暴力的，

and Y explained why they were in prison.

Y 就能解釋他們為什麼會入獄。

The X did not do that,

X 則沒有這種效果，

because like, you know, what's X?

因為，X 是什麼？

We don't associate it with violence.

我們不會把它和暴力聯想在一起。

And while we don't believe in supermales today --

雖然我們已不再相信有超級男性──

God, I hope we don't --

天啊，我希望真是如此──

we don't believe in supermales today,

現在我們不再相信有超級男性，

there is a very similar conversation that's still happening

但仍然有非常類似的對話存在，

around inherent violence in boys and biology.

關於男孩與生俱來的 暴力傾向和生物特性。

So my next stop on the weird world of X and Y,

在 X 與 Y 的詭異世界中， 我們接下來要講到另一件事，

or things feeling a little topsy-turvy, is 1985.

發生在 1985 年。

The World University Games were set to happen in Japan,

世界大學運動會即將在日本舉行，

and the Spanish hurdler María José Martínez-Patiño was scheduled to run.

西班牙跨欄選手

瑪麗亞·何塞·馬丁內斯-帕蒂尼奧 將要上場比賽，

She was like a hot shot, a rising superstar.

她是個很被看好的新星。

And the night before her race, they had her DNA scanned.

她比賽的前一晚， 他們掃瞄了她的 DNA。

Now at the time, this was a thing that they were doing,

在當時大家會這麼做，

because they were like,

因為他們的想法是：

"OK, we don't want men covertly racing as women,

「我們不想要有男性 假扮成女性來參賽，

so we're going to scan the women

所以我們要掃瞄女性，

and make sure all their Xs line up."

確保她們的 X 染色體分佈正常。」

And so I heard this story from Ruth Padawer

我從露絲·帕德華那裡 聽到了這個故事，

who was a New York Times Magazine reporter

她是《紐約時報雜誌》的記者，

and she reported on María.

她做了瑪麗亞的報導。

(Audio) Ruth Padawer: So they tell her the chromosome test results were abnormal.

（語音）露：他們告訴她， 染色體檢測結果異常，

Although on the outside, she was fully female,

雖然外觀上她完全是女性，

she had XY chromosomes and these internal testes.

但她有 XY 染色體和內部的睪丸。

MW: They were like,

茉：他們對瑪莉亞說：

"We hate to break it to you, María, but you're actually a dude.

「我們很不想這麼說， 但你其實是男的。」

You can't race with the ladies."

「你不能和女性一起比賽。」

(Audio) RP: And so she's thrown off the national team,

（語音）露： 她被踢出了國家代表隊；

she's expelled from the athletics residence,

被趕出了運動員的住處；

she's denied her scholarship,

她被取消了獎學金；

a bunch of her friends dump her,

很多朋友離開了她；

fellow athletes abandon her,

運動員夥伴拋棄了她；

she loses her medals, her records are revoked.

她失去了她的獎牌； 她的記錄被撤銷。

MW: So it turns out --

茉：結果發現──

remember when I told you

記得嗎，我提到 X 和 Y 可以有許多不同組合，

you can be a bunch of different combinations of X and Y --

你可以是有 XY 染色體的女性，

you can also be XY and be female.

You can be XX and male.

或是擁有 XX 染色體的男性。

In María's case, she was something called androgen insensitive.

瑪莉亞的情況是 所謂的雄性激素不敏感，

Which means that she did have some sort of internal testes --

這表示她體內

確實有某種睪丸 會製造睪丸素，

they were making testosterone --

but her body couldn't use it.

但她的身體無法使用它。

And so if you thought of testosterone as, like, a superpower,

所以如果你把睪丸素 視為一種超能力，

she was not benefiting from it.

她並沒有受惠於這種超能力。

And so eventually,

最後，

sports authorities, like, let her back in,

運動主管機關讓她回到賽場上，

but her career was done.

但她的職涯也無法再起飛了。

And in this instance you see how,

在這個例子中各位可以了解到：

if you assign sex to a specific place in the body,

如果你用身體結構的 某個部位來決定性別──

or at least, like, this is what I saw, right?

至少這是我觀察到的，

If you assign sex to a specific place in the body,

如果你用身體結構的 某個部位來決定性別，

it somehow makes us think that we can go into a body,

會讓我們認為，我們能進入身體，

look at a specific place

去看某個特定的地方，

and tell someone we know something more about them

然後告訴某個人，

我們比他們更了解他們自己。

than they know about themselves.

And that feels terrifying to me.

那讓我覺得很可怕。

And we don't genetically test female athletes anymore,

我們不再對女性運動員 做基因檢測了，

but you can see very similar conversations happening

但類似的對談仍然存在。

when we talk about testosterone in sports,

比如說當我們在討論 睪丸素對運動表現的影響，

you can also see it in suggestions that we take transgender individuals

或者當我們對變性人做基因分析，

and we genetically analyze them and we tell them who they are.

然後以此界定他們是誰。

That is real,

這是真實的狀況，

that is a conversation that has happened recently.

最近就有發生這樣的對話。

The last place that I'll share with you

關於這些複雜的染色體，

where these chromosomes got complicated for me

我想要和你們分享最後一個發現，

is this one thing that Melissa told me.

這件事是梅麗莎告訴我的。

(Audio) Wilson: You can't survive without an X chromosome.

（語音）梅： 沒有 X 染色體你就無法存活，

No matter your gonads, no matter your identity,

無論你的性腺、身分......

人人都需要一個 X 染色體。

every single human being has to have an X chromosome,

如果沒有，你體內的 其他部分就不會生長。

because without one, the rest of your body doesn't develop.

茉：為什麼我們把它叫作女性染色體？

MW: Why do we call this the female chromosome?

我從未想過這一點。

OK, this is something I had never though about,

但在座的每個人 真的都有一個 X 染色體。

but literally, every single person in this audience has an X chromosome,

我沒騙你，

I'm not lying.

所有地球上的人類 都有一個 X 染色體。

Every single person on the planet has an X chromosome,

but no one is going around like, "This is the every-person chromosome."

但沒有人會四處宣揚說： 「這是人人染色體。」

你們懂嗎？不知怎的，

You know?

Like, somehow it's over here, the Y is over there,

它在這裡，而 Y 在那裡，

and they must be really different,

它們就一定得要不同。

and I'm just like, it would be so much better

我想如果把它叫作人人染色體， 可能比較適合。

if it was the every-person chromosome.

但並不是因為， 我愛大家所以希望人人有分。

And not just because I'm like, love you all and I want you all in,

but because of what we're overlooking by the fact that we consider it female.

而是因為我們忽視了，

我們將它視為女性的這個事實。

Because I'm going to tell you one of the craziest things I found out.

我想跟各位分享 我最瘋狂的一個發現：

Which is, when you think about the X chromosome,

那就是，如果去想想 X 染色體，

of the almost 1,100 genes on the X chromosome,

在 X 染色體上面， 有將近 1100 個基因。

how many do you think have to do with sex and reproduction?

你們認為有幾個 和性別及生殖有關？

Like, get a number in your head.

在腦中想一個數字。

Four percent.

4%。

That means 96 percent of the rest of that chromosome

那就表示，染色體中的其他 96%，

is doing something that has nothing to do with your gonads.

所做的工作和你的性腺無關。

And I guess as all of these,

我想當這一切，

sort of, some of them social stories,

有些是社會故事；

some of them scientific stories, some of these facts,

有些是科學故事；有些是事實，

started to add up, I just thought, like,

全部整合起來，我心想：

why are we calling these the sex chromosomes?

為什麼要稱它們為性染色體？

Or if we are, like, maybe we all like that name,

或許我們都喜歡這個名字，

should we just allow ourselves to think about them

但我們是否應該要讓自己，

用更寬廣一點的方式來看待它們？

a little more broadly?

Because if we do,

如果這麼做的話，

like, what insights would we gain, as people, as scientists?

我們身為人、身為科學家， 能得到怎樣的洞見？

And we're at this point where we're thinking about, like,

在這個時候，我們會去思考，

我們想要怎樣教科學、 想要資助什麼計畫，

how do we want to teach science,

what do we want to fund,

我們想要成為怎樣的社會？

like, who do we want to be as a society, you know?

And I just wondered if it wasn't a moment to rethink the biology of X and Y,

我自問，現在是不是應該 重新思考 X 和 Y 的生物學？

and at the very least,

至少，

to remember, like, the footnotes of history,

要記得歷史的註釋，

which is that the dude who came up with the phrase "sex chromosome,"

也就是提出「性染色體」的那位老兄，

actually was like, "Hey, everyone, just remember, this is just,"

想的其實只是：

「嘿各位，別忘了這只是 『一種簡寫』。」

and I quote, "a form of shorthand."

We should not take it literally.

我們不該取字面上的意思。

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）