The weird history of the "sex chromosomes" | Molly Webster

Transcriber: Ivana Korom Reviewer: Krystian Aparta

翻译人员: Jingying Liao 校对人员: Yanyan Hong

OK.

好的。

So we are going to start in 1891,

我们要从 1891 年讲起，

when a German scientist was looking through a microscope

那时一位德国科学家 正在用显微镜

at insect cells.

观察昆虫细胞。

And he saw something kind of funny.

他看到了一些有意思的东西。

At the center of the cells, there was this dark stuff.

在细胞的中心， 有个暗色的东西。

No one had ever seen it before.

之前从来没有人注意过。

And he noticed that as the cells would multiply and divide,

他观察到当细胞分裂增殖时，

it would go into some of the new cells

这个东西就会进入一些新细胞，

but not the others.

但其他细胞中却没有。

He didn't know what it was, so he gave it a really great name.

他不知道这是什么， 便给它起了一个好名字。

他称之为 “X 元素”。

He called it the "X element."

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And he was like, "We'll just fill in that X later."

他的意思是，“我们到时候 再把这个 X 填上就好。”

And then, fast-forward 10 years later,

接着，快进十年后，

and there is an American scientist,

有一位美国科学家，

and she is looking through her microscope,

她也用她的显微镜

also at insect cells.

去观察昆虫细胞。

And she sees something funny.

然后，她看到了一些有趣的东西，

There's more of this dark stuff.

有更多这种暗色的东西。

And it's kind of tiny,

而它们挺小的，

it's hanging out near the X element.

就在 X 元素的附近。

And eventually, someone was like,

最后，有人说，

“好吧，既然这里有一个 X ，

"Well, if that one thing's called X,

should we call this other thing Y?"

那么这个我们就叫 Y 吧？”

And like that, (Snaps fingers)

就这样，（响指）

the sex chromosomes had been discovered.

人们发现了性染色体。

So chromosomes,

染色体，

you probably all know what they are,

你们或许知道它们是什么，

but I will tell you anyways.

但我还是要告诉你们。

They're made up of DNA --

它们由 DNA 组成——

everything has it, it's the blueprint of life,

一切事物都有 DNA， 它是组成生命的蓝图，

we've got rats, we've got trees,

无论老鼠、树木、

we've got insects, we've got humans.

昆虫，还是人类都有。

And in the case of human chromosomes,

对于人类染色体而言，

geneticist Melissa Wilson broke it down for me like this.

遗传学家梅丽莎·威尔逊 （Melissa Wilson）是这么解释的。

(Audio) Melissa Wilson: Typically, you'll get one copy of every chromosome

（音频）梅丽莎·威尔逊： 通常，你会从生母的身上遗传

from your genetic mom

她的染色体复本，

and one copy of every chromosome from your genetic dad,

同时，你也会遗传 生父染色体的复本。

and we have 22 of these

于是我们拥有的 22 条染色体，

that you get one copy from mom and one copy from dad.

一半来自母亲，一半来自父亲。

And then there's a 23rd pair, X and Y.

然后存在的第 23 对，就是 X 和 Y 。

Molly Webster: So while all the other chromosomes are numbered,

讲者：所以当其他的染色体都

one through 22,

从 1 到 22 标号的时候，

we do not call X and Y 23.

我们不把 X 和 Y 这对叫成 23 。

I like to think that they are waiting for, like, a LeBron James to come along.

我喜欢把它们当成在等待 勒布朗·詹姆斯（LeBron James）的到来。

But in this instance, they were like,

但是在这个情况下，他们说，

"We're just going to keep the letters,

“我们就继续保留这俩字母，

and then we'll give them a title."

然后为这两个字母命名。”

They called them the sex chromosomes.

他们将这对命名为 性染色体（sex chromosomes）。

Now I would wager that in the United States,

我敢说，它们是全美国

these are the most well-known chromosomes

最出名的染色体，

for one simple fact:

因为显而易见：

that we say X equals "girl," and Y equals "boy" --

我们将 X 等同于女孩， 而 Y 则等同于男孩——

that they are responsible for sex.

意味着性染色体和性别相关。

And -- and I had to learn this --

我必须要申明——

but when I'm talking about "sex" here,

当我在这说到“性”的时候，

I'm talking about the way biology gives us gonads,

我指的生物学上 赋予我们性腺的方式，

which are our ovaries and our testes --

指卵巢和睾丸——

I'm not talking about gender, which is how we identify.

我不是在说人类概念中 我们所认定的性别。

And so, as a reporter at the show --

所以，作为一个 在 “Radiolab“工作的

"Radiolab," the audio documentary program I work for --

有声纪录节目的记者——

I was like, what's up with these sex chromosomes?

我很好奇， 这些性染色体是怎么回事？

You know, that's kind of my job, I think things are weird,

毕竟这是我工作的一部分， 当我发现了一些怪事，

我就会去咨询相关的专家，

and then I get to call people about them

提出问题且希望能找到答案。

and ask questions, and then hopefully they answer.

在这种情况下，大多数人做出了回答。

And in this case, a lot of people answered.

两年中，我一直在报道 作为性腺一部分的

And in the two years I had of reporting on X and Y,

as part of "Gonads," the series on sex and gender

X 和 Y 染色体， 我最后为 “Radiolab”

I ended up doing for "Radiolab,"

做了这个性与性别系列节目。

I found out that these two chromosomes live in a world that is unexpected,

我发现这两条染色体生活 在一个意想不到的世界，

a little unsettling;

且有些混乱，

where things that I thought were facts

我认为是事实的事情

were, like, twisted in ways I hadn't seen before.

却像是以我从没见过的方式扭曲的。

And the world goes so far beyond the boundaries of sex,

这个世界已远远超越性的边界。

I was like,

我想，

"Maybe we should all talk about this."

“也许我们应该 认真讨论一下这些事。”

So, you're you all,

所以，既然你们都在这里，

we're all going to talk about it.

我们不妨一起讨论一下这个事情。

And for me,

对于我来说，

the true story of X and Y starts with their name.

X 和 Y 的真实故事 始于它们的名字。

So within years of being discovered,

在发现它们的头几年里，

these two little chromosomes had acquired more than 10 different names.

这两条小小的染色体 起码被起了 10 个不同的名字。

There was diplosome and heterochromosome

有“双质体”和“异染色体”，

and idiochromosome,

还有“副染色体”。

and most of the names had to do with their structure, their shape,

而且大部分的名字 都基于它们的结构、形状，

their size.

还有大小。

And then there was "sex chromosome,"

然后就有了根据事实

which they had been given because of the fact

所命名的“性染色体”。

that we had started seeing that the X would go with the females,

我们开始意识到 女性携带着 X 染色体，

and the Y would often go with the males.

而男性携带着 Y 染色体。

But scientists were like,

但科学家觉得，

"Do we really want to call them sex chromosomes?"

“我们真的要叫它们性染色体吗？”

And science historian Sarah Richardson is the one who told me this story.

科学历史学家莎拉·理查森 （Sarah Richardson）告诉了我这个故事。

(Audio) Sarah Richardson: For three decades, scientists were like,

（音频）莎拉·理查森： 三十年来，科学家们都觉得

"You should not call them the sex chromosomes.

“你不可以叫它们性染色体，

因为这个 X 和 Y 还有许多功能，

The X and Y have many functions,

and you wouldn't assume that a single chromosome

而且你不会认为一条染色体

controls a single trait.

只控制一个单一特征。

Imagine calling one chromosome the 'urogenital chromosome,'

想想如果我们叫一个 染色体“泌尿生殖染色体”，

or the 'liver chromosome.'"

或者“肝脏染色体”会如何。

MW: Scientists, if you dig into the history --

讲者：科学家们， 如果你去挖掘历史的话——

it's really cool, you should --

这真的很酷， 你应该去探索一下——

were hesitant to, like, commit to such a specific name

就不会对这个特定， 且有强烈暗示的名字

and such a powerfully connotated name.

有所犹豫。

There was a fear that it would actually be really limiting --

人们担心这个名字会带来限制——

maybe to science, maybe to society --

可能限制科学，限制社会——

but the fear was in the room.

这个担心是确实存在的。

And you can see they ended up getting "sex chromosome" --

我们知道，他们最终敲定了 “性染色体”这个名字——

it's like a pretty juicy title,

一个很形象生动的名字，

it popularized genetics, you know?

向人们普及了遗传学。

But in the 100-year history since we settled on that name,

但是自从我们确定了 这个名字后的 100 年里，

you can see it starts to get a little complicated.

事情开始变得有点复杂。

So around 1960 --

在大概在 1960 年的时候——

this is going to be our first stop

这是我们在染色体的

on the complicated world of the sex chromosomes --

复杂世界中的第一站——

so around 1960,

大约在 1960 年，

we had discovered that you could be XYY.

我们发现了人类性染色体 可以是 XYY。

They discovered an XYY man.

他们发现了一个有 XYY 染色体组合的男性。

And to digress a little here,

这里离题一下，

it turns out that the model of "X equals girl and Y equals boy"

其实， “X 等同女孩， Y 等同男孩”的模型

is really simplistic.

过于简单化了。

You can actually be a whole bunch of different combinations of X and Y,

实际上你可以是一堆 X 和一堆 Y 的组合体。

giving you, like, different types of biological sex.

赋予你生物学上不同的性别。

You could be two Xs and two Ys together.

你可以是两个 X 和两个 Y 组合在一起，

You could be four Xs, you could be five Xs,

也可以是四个 X ，或者五个 X 。

you could be XO.

甚至是 XO。

And so I thought that was pretty crazy,

这真是太玄幻了，

because I was like,

因为我心想：

"Wow, this really upends a model of biological sex

“哇哦，这真的颠覆了 我们这里大多数人

I think most of us in this room have been taught."

所学的生理性别知识。”

So a few years after they realized that you can be XYY,

当人们意识到你的性别 可以是 XYY 的几年后，

researchers go to a prison in Scotland,

有研究者们去了 一间位于苏格兰的监狱，

and they do genetic analysis of a bunch of the male prisoners.

对一群男性囚犯进行了基因分析。

And they find a number of people who are XYY.

然后他们发现有相当 数量的人是 XYY 的组合。

And according to Sarah:

根据莎拉所说：

(Audio) SR: They just rushed to publish a theory

（音频）莎拉： 他们急于发表一套理论，

suggesting that this extra Y chromosome

猜想那个多余的 Y 染色体

could explain criminality in some men.

与部分男性的暴力行为相关。

MW: Yeah.

讲者：就是这样。

So the logic goes like this:

所以逻辑是：

By this point, we're thinking Y is male.

这个时候，我们认为 Y 代表着男性。

We think male is aggressive,

而男性是好斗的，具有较强侵略性，

so Y must be aggression.

所以 Y 一定是侵害相关的染色体。

If you've got an extra Y, you must be crazy.

如果你有一个额外的 Y， 你肯定会变得很狂躁。

And like, we went nuts with this theory.

就这样，我们对 这个理论产生了很盲目的痴迷。

We called it the supermale,

我们管这类基因叫超级男性，

they started scanning more prisoners,

研究者们开始扩大分析样本，

serial killers, boys.

包括杀人狂魔， 男孩们。

And in all seriousness,

这件事严肃到，

there was actually a suggestion that we consider aborting XYY fetuses.

当时有人建议孕妇打掉 基因组合为 XYY 的胎儿。

So in 1980,

但在 1980 年，

this theory pretty much toppled, for a number of reasons.

这个理论因为种种原因被推翻了。

One,

其中一个原因是，

there had been this really large study

当时有一个非常大型的研究，

that basically showed there was no connection

大体上没有得出理论中

between Y and violence,

Y 和暴力相关的推断。

I think we all saw that coming.

我想我们都预料到了。

And then, there was one other thing.

还有一件事。

(Audio) SR: Going back and looking at those original findings

（音频）莎拉：回溯那些保存于

in that high-security psychiatric institution,

高戒严精神病院的最初发现。

they had also found a high number of individuals

当时人们同样发现了大数量的个体

with an extra X chromosome.

拥有额外的 X 染色体。

So these are XXY, as opposed to XYY.

像 XYY 一样，也存在对应的 XXY 。

(Audio) MW: Really?

（音频）讲者：真的吗？

(Audio) SR: Yeah. Now, they never claimed

（音频）莎拉：是的， 但是他们从来没有发出过声明，

that the individuals with an extra X chromosome

将有额外的 X 染色体的个体

were superfemales.

称为超级女性。

They never investigated whether they had higher rates of violence.

他们也从未调查过 她们是否有高暴力率。

MW: Seems like kind of an oversight.

讲者：这看起来像一种疏忽。

I don't know.

谁知道呢？

But I think it's interesting,

但是我觉得这很有意思，

because what you see is if you start looking at these chromosomes

因为你会发现，一旦你开始 透过性的镜头去观察

through the lens of sex,

这些性染色体的时候，

what naturally falls in place behind

我们才是那个自然而然落后的，

is we look at them through the lens of gender,

因为我们在用带性别 以及性别相关特征的

and the traits that we associate with gender.

眼镜去看待这个事物。

So men were violent,

于是我们认为男人就是暴力的，

and Y explained why they were in prison.

Y 染色体解释他们为什么进了监狱，

The X did not do that,

然而 X 染色体并不会这样，

because like, you know, what's X?

因为，你懂的，X 代表了什么？

We don't associate it with violence.

我们不会把暴力和 X 联系在一起。

And while we don't believe in supermales today --

虽然今天我们不相信有超级男性——

God, I hope we don't --

上帝呀，我希望我们不会——

we don't believe in supermales today,

不会相信现今有超级男性，

there is a very similar conversation that's still happening

类似的对话仍发生在

around inherent violence in boys and biology.

关于男性与生俱来的 暴力和生物学讨论中。

So my next stop on the weird world of X and Y,

所以我在这个 X 和 Y 的诡异世界，

or things feeling a little topsy-turvy, is 1985.

或者说关于这个混乱事件的调查的 下一站是在 1985 年。

The World University Games were set to happen in Japan,

那一年，世界大学生运动会 如期在日本举行，西班牙跨栏运动员

and the Spanish hurdler María José Martínez-Patiño was scheduled to run.

玛丽亚·何塞·马丁内斯-帕蒂诺 （María José Martínez-Patiño）计划参加比赛。

She was like a hot shot, a rising superstar.

她就是一个冉冉升起的耀眼新星。

And the night before her race, they had her DNA scanned.

而在比赛的前夜， 他们检测了她的 DNA 。

Now at the time, this was a thing that they were doing,

在当时，他们会做这个事

是因为他们会想：

because they were like,

”我们可不想让一个男人 像女人一样偷偷摸摸地比赛，

"OK, we don't want men covertly racing as women,

so we're going to scan the women

所以我们检测女性运动员，

and make sure all their Xs line up."

确保她们的染色体都是 X ， 她们的确是女性。"

And so I heard this story from Ruth Padawer

我是在露丝·帕达沃（Ruth Padawer） 那得知了这个故事，

who was a New York Times Magazine reporter

她曾经是《纽约时报》杂志的的记者，

and she reported on María.

而且当时她报道了玛丽亚的故事。

(Audio) Ruth Padawer: So they tell her the chromosome test results were abnormal.

（音频）露丝: 工作人员告诉玛丽亚， 她的染色体检测结果不正常的。

Although on the outside, she was fully female,

虽然从外表上看， 她完全就是个女人，

she had XY chromosomes and these internal testes.

但她有 XY 染色体和隐性睾丸。

MW: They were like,

讲者：他们是这样说的，

"We hate to break it to you, María, but you're actually a dude.

“我们不想打击你，但是玛丽亚， 你是一个货真价实的男人。

You can't race with the ladies."

你不可以和女性们一起比赛。”

(Audio) RP: And so she's thrown off the national team,

（音频）露丝： 然后她就这样被踢出了国家队，

在体育竞技中失去了席位，

she's expelled from the athletics residence,

she's denied her scholarship,

她的奖学金被取消，

a bunch of her friends dump her,

一些朋友远离了她，

fellow athletes abandon her,

运动员同行抛弃了她，

she loses her medals, her records are revoked.

她失去了她的奖牌， 她的比赛记录也被撤销。

MW: So it turns out --

讲者：结果是，

像我刚说的，

remember when I told you

你可以拥有一堆 XY 的组合体——

you can be a bunch of different combinations of X and Y --

你可以也同时有 XY 并且是女性，

you can also be XY and be female.

You can be XX and male.

或者你可以有 XX 但是男性。

In María's case, she was something called androgen insensitive.

在玛丽亚的事件中， 她属于对雄激素不敏感的情况。

Which means that she did have some sort of internal testes --

意味着她确实有隐性睾丸——

they were making testosterone --

这些睾丸会产生一些睾酮素，

but her body couldn't use it.

但是她的身体是用不了的。

And so if you thought of testosterone as, like, a superpower,

所以如果你觉得睾酮素 是什么大力菠菜的话，

she was not benefiting from it.

玛丽亚对这个免疫。

And so eventually,

所以最终，

sports authorities, like, let her back in,

体育当局统一她归队，

but her career was done.

但是她的职业生涯已经结束了。

And in this instance you see how,

在这个案例中，你可以知道，

if you assign sex to a specific place in the body,

如果你把性归属于身体的某个部位，

or at least, like, this is what I saw, right?

至少这是我所看到的——

If you assign sex to a specific place in the body,

如果你把性这个概念 具化为身体的某个部位，

it somehow makes us think that we can go into a body,

它就会在某种程度上让我们以为 我们可以探究人体，

look at a specific place

通过观察某个特定的部位，

and tell someone we know something more about them

告诉别人我们比他们自己

than they know about themselves.

更了解他们。

And that feels terrifying to me.

这让我觉得很可怕。

And we don't genetically test female athletes anymore,

当然了，我们已经不再 对女运动员进行基因检测了。

but you can see very similar conversations happening

但是当我们讨论睾酮素 对体育运动的作用时，

when we talk about testosterone in sports,

你仍然可以听到类似的话题，

you can also see it in suggestions that we take transgender individuals

你也可以看到有人 建议我们接纳变性人，

and we genetically analyze them and we tell them who they are.

我们在基因层面上检测他们， 然后揭晓他们的真实性别。

That is real,

这是真的，

that is a conversation that has happened recently.

这是最近发生的讨论。

The last place that I'll share with you

我要和你们分享的最后一件事，

where these chromosomes got complicated for me

是在我看来，这些染色体 在哪里变得复杂了，

is this one thing that Melissa told me.

这是梅丽莎告诉我的一件事情。

(Audio) Wilson: You can't survive without an X chromosome.

（音频）梅丽莎： 离开了 X 染色体，你将无法存活。

No matter your gonads, no matter your identity,

无论你拥有什么样的性腺和特质。

每一个人类必须 要有一个 X 染色体。

every single human being has to have an X chromosome,

如果没有的话， 你的身体就无法发育。

because without one, the rest of your body doesn't develop.

讲者：那为什么我们要将 X 称呼为女性染色体？

MW: Why do we call this the female chromosome?

好吧，这是我从来没有想过的事情。

OK, this is something I had never though about,

但不夸张地说， 在场每位观众都有 X 染色体，

but literally, every single person in this audience has an X chromosome,

我没骗你们。

I'm not lying.

这个星球上的每一个人 都有一条 X 染色体，

Every single person on the planet has an X chromosome,

但是却没有人说， “这是一个全人类染色体”。

but no one is going around like, "This is the every-person chromosome."

对吧？

You know?

毕竟可以这么说， X 在这边，Y 在这边，

Like, somehow it's over here, the Y is over there,

and they must be really different,

而且它们肯定是不同的，

而我认为如果称它们为

and I'm just like, it would be so much better

全人类染色体会更好。

if it was the every-person chromosome.

不仅仅因为，比如说我爱你们， 所以希望你们都有这个染色体。

And not just because I'm like, love you all and I want you all in,

but because of what we're overlooking by the fact that we consider it female.

而是因为我们忽略了 大家总认定它是女性染色体的事实。

Because I'm going to tell you one of the craziest things I found out.

因此，接下来我要告诉大家 我发现的最玄幻的一个事实，

Which is, when you think about the X chromosome,

当你在思考 X 染色体时，

of the almost 1,100 genes on the X chromosome,

在这个染色体上的 1100 个基因里，

how many do you think have to do with sex and reproduction?

你觉得有多少基因与性和繁殖有关？

Like, get a number in your head.

现在，你在脑海里猜一个数字。

Four percent.

百分之四。

That means 96 percent of the rest of that chromosome

这意味着剩下的百分之九十六

is doing something that has nothing to do with your gonads.

和你的性腺一点关系都没有。

And I guess as all of these,

所有的这些——

sort of, some of them social stories,

有些是社会故事，

some of them scientific stories, some of these facts,

有些是科学故事，有些是事实——

started to add up, I just thought, like,

层层叠叠加在一起，不禁让我思考，

why are we calling these the sex chromosomes?

为什么我们要叫它们性染色体？

Or if we are, like, maybe we all like that name,

或者说，可能我们就是 喜欢这个名字，

should we just allow ourselves to think about them

我们不应该允许自己去思考得

a little more broadly?

更广泛些吗？

Because if we do,

一旦我们这样做了，

like, what insights would we gain, as people, as scientists?

作为群众，作为科学家， 我们能从中学到什么？

And we're at this point where we're thinking about, like,

现在我们在想，

我们要怎么教授科学，

how do we want to teach science,

what do we want to fund,

我们想要投资什么项目，

又或者，我们想塑造 一个什么样的社会？

like, who do we want to be as a society, you know?

And I just wondered if it wasn't a moment to rethink the biology of X and Y,

于是我在想，也许我们不应该 去重新思考 XY 染色体背后的

and at the very least,

生物理论，

to remember, like, the footnotes of history,

而是至少要记住历史的注脚，

which is that the dude who came up with the phrase "sex chromosome,"

也就是那个定义了“性染色体”的人，

actually was like, "Hey, everyone, just remember, this is just,"

实际上想表达的是， ”嘿，各位，只要记住，这只是“——

and I quote, "a form of shorthand."

我在这里引用了原文—— “一种速记法而已。”

We should not take it literally.

我们不应该只从字面上理解。

Thank you.

谢谢大家。

(Applause)

（掌声）