Pankaj Ghemawat: Actually, the world isn't flat

181,970 views ・ 2012-10-22

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00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast
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譯者: Mei Lien Lin 審譯者: Chen-Han Hsiao
00:15
I'm here to talk to you about how globalized we are,
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我要談的是:我們有多麼全球化,
00:20
how globalized we aren't,
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或我們根本就不是,
00:22
and why it's important to actually be accurate
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釐清我們到底是哪一種
00:26
in making those kinds of assessments.
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是很重要的。
00:29
And the leading point of view on this, whether measured
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現今對全球化最主要的看法,不管是從相關書籍銷售數量,
00:32
by number of books sold, mentions in media,
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或是媒體持續的話題,
00:37
or surveys that I've run with groups ranging from
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或者是我自己參與的團隊,
00:40
my students to delegates to the World Trade Organization,
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從我的學生到國際貿易組織的代表,
00:44
is this view that national borders
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都認為國與國的分界
00:47
really don't matter very much anymore,
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都不再那麼重要了
00:50
cross-border integration is close to complete,
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跨國間邊界協調整合也差不多完成了,
00:55
and we live in one world.
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我們是個國際村了。
00:57
And what's interesting about this view
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然而有趣的是,這樣的觀點
00:59
is, again, it's a view that's held by pro-globalizers
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是由那些支持全球化的人提出的,
01:03
like Tom Friedman, from whose book this quote is obviously excerpted,
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像湯瑪斯•佛里曼,從他的書中就有這樣的引述。
01:07
but it's also held by anti-globalizers, who see this giant
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但同時反全球化的人也支持這樣的觀點,
01:11
globalization tsunami that's about to wreck all our lives
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他們認為這巨大的全球化海嘯快要擊垮我們的生活了,
01:16
if it hasn't already done so.
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如果我們還沒被擊垮的話!
01:19
The other thing I would add is that this is not a new view.
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另外我想說的是這並不是最近才有的看法。
01:23
I'm a little bit of an amateur historian, so I've spent
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我不算是個歷史學家,
01:27
some time going back, trying to see the first mention
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所以我花了一些時間回到過去,想要知道最早是誰
01:31
of this kind of thing. And the best, earliest quote
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首先提出類似的理論。
01:35
that I could find was one from David Livingstone,
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我找到最早的引述是由大衛 • 李文史東提出的。
01:38
writing in the 1850s about how the railroad, the steam ship,
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1850年代時他寫道,鐵路、蒸汽船還有電報
01:44
and the telegraph were integrating East Africa perfectly
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如何使得西非能夠順暢的
01:49
with the rest of the world.
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和世界其他的地方互動。
01:52
Now clearly, David Livingstone
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現在看來顯然大衛∙李文史東
01:54
was a little bit ahead of his time,
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有點超越他自己的時代。
01:57
but it does seem useful to ask ourselves,
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那麼在我們思考未來的方向前,
02:01
"Just how global are we?"
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先問一下我們有多麼全球化,
02:03
before we think about where we go from here.
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應該是有幫助的。
02:06
So the best way I've found of trying to get people
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所以我認為使人們相信世界不是平的,或者連平緩都談不上
02:10
to take seriously the idea that the world may not be flat,
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最好的方法
02:15
may not even be close to flat, is with some data.
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是看一些數據資料。
02:19
So one of the things I've been doing over the last few years
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在過去幾年我一直在做一件事就是:
02:22
is really compiling data on things that could either happen
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彙整收集各種發生在
02:26
within national borders or across national borders,
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本國內或跨國間的數據資料。
02:31
and I've looked at the cross-border component
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我看的是跨國的要素,
02:34
as a percentage of the total.
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在總體裡占了多少百分比。
02:36
I'm not going to present all the data that I have here today,
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今天我不會呈現全部的資料,
02:40
but let me just give you a few data points.
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一些主要的數據重點。
02:44
I'm going to talk a little bit about one kind of information flow,
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我會談到一些流動變化,
02:48
one kind of flow of people, one kind of flow of capital,
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包含資訊,人群 和 資金。
02:53
and, of course, trade in products and services.
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當然還有包含產品貿易和服務業。
02:57
So let's start off with plain old telephone service.
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讓我們先從簡單的通話服務開始,
03:01
Of all the voice-calling minutes in the world last year,
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我想問大家根據我們計算
03:06
what percentage do you think were accounted for
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你認為去年國際電話的秒數
03:11
by cross-border phone calls?
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占所有通話秒數中多少百分比?
03:13
Pick a percentage in your own mind.
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在心中選個數字吧!
03:17
The answer turns out to be two percent.
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結果答案是百分之二。
03:21
If you include Internet telephony, you might be able
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如果再加上網路電話,
03:25
to push this number up to six or seven percent,
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可能會增加至百分之七。
03:28
but it's nowhere near what people tend to estimate.
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這跟人們可能的預測結果有很大的差距。
03:33
Or let's turn to people moving across borders.
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讓我們接下來看跨國的人群移動,
03:36
One particular thing we might look at, in terms of
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我們特別要觀察的是
03:40
long-term flows of people, is what percentage
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長期性的人口移動,
03:43
of the world's population is accounted for
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在全球所有人口中,
03:47
by first-generation immigrants?
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第一代移民占了多少百分比呢?
03:50
Again, please pick a percentage.
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再選個數字吧!
03:54
Turns out to be a little bit higher.
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結果比那高一點
03:57
It's actually about three percent.
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實際上是大約百分之三
04:00
Or think of investment. Take all the real investment
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接下來是投資,
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that went on in the world in 2010.
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在2010年所有全球實際的投資裡,
04:08
What percentage of that was accounted for
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直接由國外投資的到底
04:11
by foreign direct investment?
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占了多少白分比呢?
04:15
Not quite ten percent.
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還不到百分之十。
04:18
And then finally, the one statistic
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最後有一項統計,
04:21
that I suspect many of the people in this room have seen:
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我想在座的人應該都看過,
04:24
the export-to-GDP ratio.
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就是出口占國內生產毛額的比例,
04:26
If you look at the official statistics, they typically indicate
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如果你看的是官方統計,
04:30
a little bit above 30 percent.
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通常都是百分之三十多一點。
04:33
However, there's a big problem with the official statistics,
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然而官方的統計有個大問題,
04:38
in that if, for instance, a Japanese component supplier
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假如日本的零件供應商,
04:43
ships something to China to be put into an iPod,
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出口 iPod 零件到中國組裝,
04:46
and then the iPod gets shipped to the U.S.,
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然後 iPod 才出貨至美國,
04:49
that component ends up getting counted multiple times.
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結果這零件被重複計算了。
04:53
So nobody knows how bad this bias
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所以沒人知道官方的統計偏差有多嚴重。
04:56
with the official statistics actually is, so I thought I would
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所以我想應該詢問一下
05:00
ask the person who's spearheading the effort
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在這方面有研究的人,
05:02
to generate data on this, Pascal Lamy,
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來進行這方面的分析,他是帕斯可∙拉米,
05:05
the Director of the World Trade Organization,
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是世界貿易組織的總幹事。
05:08
what his best guess would be
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他試著猜測,
05:10
of exports as a percentage of GDP,
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沒有重複多次計算的話,
05:14
without the double- and triple-counting,
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出口占國民生產毛額的比例
05:16
and it's actually probably a bit under 20 percent, rather than
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大概是低於百分之二十,
05:20
the 30 percent-plus numbers that we're talking about.
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而不是我們剛說到的三十多。
05:24
So it's very clear that if you look at these numbers
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所以如果你看這些數據,
05:28
or all the other numbers that I talk about in my book,
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或是我的書《世界 3.0》所提到的所有數據資料,
05:32
"World 3.0," that we're very, very far from
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就會瞭解到其實我們距離
05:36
the no-border effect benchmark, which would imply
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無國界的基準還很遠呢!
05:40
internationalization levels of the order of 85, 90, 95 percent.
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因為國際化標準應該是達到85, 90或是95的百分比。
05:47
So clearly, apocalyptically-minded authors
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所以那些像先知一般的作者們
05:51
have overstated the case.
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其實都言過其實了。
05:54
But it's not just the apocalyptics, as I think of them,
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但我想
05:58
who are prone to this kind of overstatement.
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不只他們認同這種看法
06:01
I've also spent some time surveying audiences
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我也花了一些時間,
06:05
in different parts of the world
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請住在不同的區域人們,
06:07
on what they actually guess these numbers to be.
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猜猜這些數字應該是多少。
06:11
Let me share with you the results of a survey
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現在讓我來談談調查的結果,
06:14
that Harvard Business Review was kind enough to run
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哈佛商業評論很熱心的
06:17
of its readership as to what people's guesses
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透過雜誌讀者
06:21
along these dimensions actually were.
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來針對這些方面來做預測。
06:25
So a couple of observations stand out for me from this slide.
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這張幻燈片中呈現幾個看法可以證明我的論點。
06:31
First of all, there is a suggestion of some error.
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首先,這裡有些偏差。
06:36
Okay. (Laughter)
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好!
06:39
Second, these are pretty large errors. For four quantities
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再來,這也錯得離譜了。
06:44
whose average value is less than 10 percent,
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剛剛那四個平均值不到百分之十的數據,
06:47
you have people guessing three, four times that level.
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大眾的預測結果竟然高至三、四倍之多。
06:51
Even though I'm an economist, I find that
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儘管我是個經濟學家,
06:54
a pretty large error.
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我覺得這是個很大的誤差。
06:57
And third, this is not just confined to the readers
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第三,這並不是只有哈佛商業評論讀者
07:01
of the Harvard Business Review.
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這麼認為。
07:03
I've run several dozen such surveys in different parts
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我也在世界其他的地方進行好幾次這樣的調查,
07:06
of the world, and in all cases except one,
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在所有的調查裡,
07:09
where a group actually underestimated
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只有貿易對國民生產比例這項被低估。
07:12
the trade-to-GDP ratio, people have this tendency
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所以針對大眾這種高估的傾向,
07:17
towards overestimation, and so I thought it important
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我覺得應該要有個名稱,
07:20
to give a name to this, and that's what I refer to
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就是我認為的全球化鬼扯論,
07:23
as globaloney, the difference between the dark blue bars
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指的就是藍色區塊和
07:28
and the light gray bars.
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灰色區塊的中間的落差。
07:31
Especially because, I suspect, some of you may still be
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我覺得你們有些人可能
07:35
a little bit skeptical of the claims, I think it's important
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仍然有點懷疑這個說法。
07:39
to just spend a little bit of time thinking about
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所以,我認為我們還是要花一些時間
07:42
why we might be prone to globaloney.
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想想為什麼我們有這種全球化的傾向呢?
07:46
A couple of different reasons come to mind.
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我想到幾個原因。
07:49
First of all, there's a real dearth of data in the debate.
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最主要的是在這議題上資料嚴重不足。
07:53
Let me give you an example. When I first published
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我舉個例子。幾年前,當我第一次
07:56
some of these data a few years ago
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在《外交政策》這本雜誌,
07:59
in a magazine called Foreign Policy,
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公布其中一些數據。
08:01
one of the people who wrote in, not entirely in agreement,
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其中一個讀者來信是湯瑪斯•佛里曼,
08:05
was Tom Friedman. And since my article was titled
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他顯然不是很同意我的論點。
08:09
"Why the World Isn't Flat," that wasn't too surprising. (Laughter)
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因為我的標題是“世界不是平的”,所以我一點也不訝異。
08:14
What was very surprising to me was Tom's critique,
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讓我訝異的是他的批評,
08:18
which was, "Ghemawat's data are narrow."
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他說:「格曼沃特的資料範圍太小了。」
08:23
And this caused me to scratch my head, because
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這實在讓我想不通,
08:26
as I went back through his several-hundred-page book,
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因為當我回頭去看他那本好幾百頁的書,
08:29
I couldn't find a single figure, chart, table,
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我找不到任何數據圖表,
08:34
reference or footnote.
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或者是參考資料或註解。
08:37
So my point is, I haven't presented a lot of data here
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所以我要說的是,現在我沒有運用一大堆的數據
08:41
to convince you that I'm right, but I would urge you
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來說服你我是對的,但我鼓勵你們
08:45
to go away and look for your own data
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可以去找找你們自己的數據,
08:48
to try and actually assess whether some of these
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然後試著評估看看
08:51
hand-me-down insights that we've been bombarded with
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是否這些我們一直被灌輸的看法
08:55
actually are correct.
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真的是對的。
08:57
So dearth of data in the debate is one reason.
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所以資料缺乏是個原因。
09:01
A second reason has to do with peer pressure.
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另一個原因是來自同行的壓力。
09:05
I remember, I decided to write my
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我記得為什麼我決定要寫
09:08
"Why the World Isn't Flat" article, because
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“為什麼世界不是平的”這篇文章,
09:11
I was being interviewed on TV in Mumbai,
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那是我被邀請上孟買接受訪問,
09:14
and the interviewer's first question to me was,
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主持人第一個問題就問我:
09:17
"Professor Ghemawat, why do you still believe
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「格曼沃特教授,為什麼你仍然相信
09:21
that the world is round?" And I started laughing,
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世界是圓的?」我開始笑了起來,
09:26
because I hadn't come across that formulation before. (Laughter)
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因為我跟本沒想過那種說法。
09:29
And as I was laughing, I was thinking,
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在我笑的同時,我也想到這是
09:32
I really need a more coherent response, especially
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全國轉播的節目,我應該要有比較適切的回應,
09:35
on national TV. I'd better write something about this. (Laughter)
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所以我想我應該針對這個寫一些東西。
09:39
But what I can't quite capture for you
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我很難跟你們說明,
09:42
was the pity and disbelief
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那真是令人我覺得可悲,而且難以置信
09:44
with which the interviewer asked her question.
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主持人竟會問這種問題。
09:48
The perspective was, here is this poor professor.
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這好像是說,這個可憐的教授,
09:52
He's clearly been in a cave for the last 20,000 years.
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他顯然是活在兩萬年前的山頂洞人。
09:57
He really has no idea
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他顯然不了解,
09:59
as to what's actually going on in the world.
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現在這個世界到底發生了什麼?
10:02
So try this out with your friends and acquaintances,
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所以你可以試試看問問你的朋友,
10:06
if you like. You'll find that it's very cool
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或是你認識的人,你會發現談談
10:09
to talk about the world being one, etc.
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世界一家的議題,其實滿酷的。
10:13
If you raise questions about that formulation,
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如果你質疑那種想法,
10:16
you really are considered a bit of an antique.
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你可能會被當成是一個老古董。
10:20
And then the final reason, which I mention,
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最後一個原因,我是帶著戒慎恐懼的心情,
10:23
especially to a TED audience, with some trepidation,
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特別要跟TED的觀眾說明,
10:27
has to do with what I call "techno-trances."
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那就是我所謂的電音傳腦,
10:30
If you listen to techno music for long periods of time,
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就如你聽太久的電子音樂,
10:34
it does things to your brainwave activity. (Laughter)
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會影響你的腦部運作一樣。
10:37
Something similar seems to happen
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相同的效果也會產生在這時候,
10:41
with exaggerated conceptions of how technology
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當我們持續誇大科技
10:46
is going to overpower in the very immediate run
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將會短時間內打破
10:50
all cultural barriers, all political barriers,
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所有的文化隔閡,政治藩籬,
10:53
all geographic barriers, because at this point
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和所有地理上的障礙。
10:57
I know you aren't allowed to ask me questions,
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我知道現在你們不宜發問,
11:00
but when I get to this point in my lecture with my students,
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但每當我談到這個,我的學生們
11:03
hands go up, and people ask me,
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就會舉手問我 :
11:05
"Yeah, but what about Facebook?"
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「那臉書代表什麼呢?」
11:09
And I got this question often enough that I thought
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我常被問到這樣的問題,
11:11
I'd better do some research on Facebook.
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所以我想我應該來研究一下臉書,
11:14
Because, in some sense, it's the ideal kind of technology
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因為就某種程度上,它被看成是理想的科技型態。
11:18
to think about. Theoretically, it makes it
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理論上來說,
11:22
as easy to form friendships halfway around the world
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臉書使得跨越半個地球交朋友,
11:25
as opposed to right next door.
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就如跟隔壁鄰居交惡一樣容易。
11:28
What percentage of people's friends on Facebook
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大眾的臉書朋友到底
11:34
are actually located in countries other than where
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占有多少比例是跟我們的調查對象
11:37
people we're analyzing are based?
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不同國家呢?
11:40
The answer is probably somewhere between
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答案大概是介於
11:44
10 to 15 percent.
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百分之十至十五之間。
11:47
Non-negligible, so we don't live in an entirely local
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這很明顯的,我們不只與同國家的人交流
11:50
or national world, but very, very far from the 95 percent level
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但距離你所期待百分之九十五,
11:55
that you would expect, and the reason's very simple.
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還有一大段距離。理由很簡單,
11:59
We don't, or I hope we don't, form friendships at random
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因為我們不會,至少我希望我們不會,
12:03
on Facebook. The technology is overlaid
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在臉書隨便就亂交朋友。
12:08
on a pre-existing matrix of relationships that we have,
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科技是基於我們早就形成的人際關係,
12:12
and those relationships are what the technology
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而這些關係並不是科技可以代替的。
12:16
doesn't quite displace. Those relationships are why
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就是因為這些既有的人際關係,
12:19
we get far fewer than 95 percent of our friends
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我們才沒有高達百分之九十五的朋友
12:23
being located in countries other than where we are.
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都來自異國。
12:27
So does all this matter? Or is globaloney
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所以這些都有關係嗎?或者全球化鬼扯論
12:32
just a harmless way of getting people to pay more attention
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只是一個無害的方式讓大家多注意
12:37
to globalization-related issues?
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全球相關議題呢?
12:40
I want to suggest that actually,
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我想要說的是,
12:42
globaloney can be very harmful to your health.
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全球化鬼扯論是對你健康有傷害的,
12:47
First of all, recognizing that the glass
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首先,如果玻璃杯
12:50
is only 10 to 20 percent full is critical to seeing
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只有百分之十到二十滿而已,
12:55
that there might be potential for additional gains
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那麼就一定還可以額外
12:58
from additional integration,
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再增加其他東西。
13:00
whereas if we thought we were already there,
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如果我們認為我們已經達到了,
13:03
there would be no particular point to pushing harder.
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那就不可能再更進一步了。
13:06
It's a little bit like, we wouldn't be having a conference
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就像如果我們真的認為
13:09
on radical openness if we already thought we were totally open
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我們已經很開放了
13:14
to all the kinds of influences that are being talked about
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我們不會有任何會議,
13:17
at this conference.
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來談論積極開放的話題,
13:18
So being accurate about how limited globalization levels are
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所以正確的看待全球化有限的程度
13:23
is critical to even being able to notice
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是很重要的,
13:26
that there might be room for something more,
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因為那表示還有更多需要做的事情,
13:30
something that would contribute further to global welfare.
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比如,如何對全球福址有進一步的作為。
13:34
Which brings me to my second point.
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這就牽連到我第二個要點,
13:37
Avoiding overstatement is also very helpful
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避免過度高估是有好處的,
13:41
because it reduces and in some cases even reverses
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因為可以減少或者是導正
13:46
some of the fears that people have about globalization.
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有些人對全球化的恐懼。
13:51
So I actually spend most of my "World 3.0" book
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所以我在我的書《世界3.0》裡,
13:54
working through a litany of market failures and fears
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特別提到很多市場失敗的例子,
13:58
that people have that they worry globalization is going to exacerbate.
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還有人們害怕全球化將會使之更加惡化。
14:04
I'm obviously not going to be able to do that for you today,
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很顯然的今天我沒辦法跟你多討論這點,
14:07
so let me just present to you two headlines
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所以讓我用兩個標題,
14:11
as an illustration of what I have in mind.
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來表示我的論點。
14:14
Think of France and the current debate about immigration.
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想想法國和目前大家對移民話題的討論,
14:18
When you ask people in France what percentage
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當你問法國人,移民占有法國人口中
14:21
of the French population is immigrants,
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幾個百分比?
14:24
the answer is about 24 percent. That's their guess.
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答案是大概二十四個百分比。那是他們猜的。
14:28
Maybe realizing that the number is just eight percent
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也許當我們知道只有八個百分比時,
14:33
might help cool some of the superheated rhetoric
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也許可以冷卻一下一些過於情緒化的
14:37
that we see around the immigration issue.
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移民爭論。
14:40
Or to take an even more striking example,
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講一個更令人訝異的例子,
14:45
when the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations
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芝加哥外交委員會
14:47
did a survey of Americans, asking them to guess
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做了一項調查,請美國人猜猜
14:50
what percentage of the federal budget went to foreign aid,
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聯邦的預算裡占有多少比例是用在國外援助上,
14:54
the guess was 30 percent, which is
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猜測的結果是30 %
14:58
slightly in excess of the actual level — ("actually about ... 1%") (Laughter) —
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這個結果稍微超出 (事實上是大約1%)
15:03
of U.S. governmental commitments to federal aid.
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美國政府對各聯邦的援助預算。
15:07
The reassuring thing about this particular survey was,
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這個特別調查可以確保,
15:10
when it was pointed out to people how far
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當人們了解到實際的狀況,
15:13
their estimates were from the actual data,
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遠不及我們所猜測的。
15:16
some of them — not all of them — seemed to become
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也許會有一些人,不是全部,
15:19
more willing to consider increases in foreign aid.
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願意多增加對國外援助。
15:23
So foreign aid is actually a great way
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國際援助事實上很適合
15:26
of sort of wrapping up here, because
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用來做為今天的結論。
15:29
if you think about it, what I've been talking about today
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如果你回想一下,今天我一直在談的,
15:33
is this notion -- very uncontroversial amongst economists --
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這個經濟學家都同意的概念:
15:37
that most things are very home-biased.
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許多事情都是存在著本土偏重。
15:40
"Foreign aid is the most aid to poor people,"
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「國外援助是窮人最大的幫助」
15:43
is about the most home-biased thing you can find.
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就是你能想到最具偏見的事情。
15:47
If you look at the OECD countries and how much
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觀察一下那些經濟合作組織的國家,
15:50
they spend per domestic poor person,
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他們平均花了多少錢在一個本地的窮人上,
15:53
and compare it with how much they spend
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和花在一個窮困國家裡的窮人的金額
15:55
per poor person in poor countries,
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比較看看。
15:59
the ratio — Branko Milanovic at the World Bank did the calculations —
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世界銀行的柏克・米蘭維克
16:03
turns out to be about 30,000 to one.
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算出來的結果-大約是30000比1。
16:08
Now of course, some of us, if we truly are cosmopolitan,
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如果我們有些人認為我們真的是四海一家了,
16:14
would like to see that ratio being brought down
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就會希望看到那個比例會降到
16:18
to one-is-to-one.
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1:1。
16:20
I'd like to make the suggestion that we don't need to aim
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我的建議是,
16:23
for that to make substantial progress from where we are.
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我們不需要真的去追求達到那個目標。
16:27
If we simply brought that ratio down to 15,000 to one,
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假如我們只要可以把比例降到15000:1,
16:32
we would be meeting those aid targets that were agreed
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我們就會達成那些早在20年前,
16:36
at the Rio Summit 20 years ago that the summit
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里約高峰會時所同意的目標,
16:39
that ended last week made no further progress on.
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但上週才結束的高峰會顯示未更進一步的發展。
16:43
So in summary, while radical openness is great,
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總而言之,在我們目前開放的程度來說,
16:47
given how closed we are,
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繼續積極開放是好的,
16:49
even incremental openness could make things
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甚至持續的開放才能使這一切
16:52
dramatically better. Thank you very much. (Applause)
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有更顯著的改變。謝謝大家!
16:56
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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