Frank Gehry: Nice building. Then what?

譯者: Huaiju Liu 審譯者: Hsun Ying Tsai

Frank Gehry: I listened to this scientist this morning.

弗蘭克•蓋瑞：今天早上我聽到一位科學家在和

Dr. Mullis was talking about his experiments,

穆裏斯博士說他的實驗，

and I realized that I almost became a scientist.

突然想到自己當年差點兒就成了科學家。

When I was 14 my parents bought me a chemistry set

我十四歲的時候父母給我買了一套化學儀器。

and I decided to make water.

然後我決定要合成水。

(Laughter)

（笑）

So, I made a hydrogen generator and I made an oxygen generator,

於是我做了一套氫氣生成器和一套氧氣生成器。

and I had the two pipes leading into a beaker

我將這兩根管子導入量杯裡，

and I threw a match in.

然後我扔了根火柴進去。

(Laughter)

（笑♫）

And the glass -- luckily I turned around --

然後玻璃—幸好我轉過了身，

I had it all in my back

全都砸在了我背上。

and I was about 15 feet away.

大概十五尺左右的地方，

The wall was covered with ...

牆上覆蓋著---

I had an explosion.

我制造了一场爆炸。

Richard Saul Wurman: Really?

理查•所羅•烏爾曼：啊？真的？

FG: People on the street came and knocked on the door

蓋瑞：街上的人都過來敲門，

to see if I was okay.

看看我有沒有事。

RSW: ... huh. (Laughter)

（笑）

I'd like to start

烏爾曼：恩，我要重新開個頭—

this session again.

重新開始這段對話。

The gentleman to my left is the very famous, perhaps overly famous,

我左邊的這位先生就是非常著名的，可能有點兒名不副實的

Frank Gehry.

弗蘭克•蓋瑞。

(Laughter)

（笑）

(Applause)

（鼓掌♫）

And Frank, you've come to a place in your life, which is astonishing.

弗蘭克，你已經攀登到了人生中不可思議的高度。

I mean it is astonishing for an artist, for an architect,

我是說，對於一位藝術家—一位建築師而言—

to become actually an icon and a legend in their own time.

成為你所屬的這一個時代的風向標，甚至傳說。

I mean you have become, whether you can giggle at it

我是說你成功了，就算你對這個事實竊笑，

because it's a funny ... you know, it's a strange thought,

因為確實很好笑——你知道，這是很奇怪的想法。

but your building is an icon --

但你的建築物是種象徵。

you can draw a little picture of that building, it can be used in ads --

你給那幢建築畫張小圖，它就可以被用在廣告裏。

and you've had not rock star status, but celebrity status

而且你擁有—非搖滾明星的地位，而是名人的地位，

in doing what you wanted to do for most of your life.

可以在一生的大部分時間中自己想做的事情。

And I know the road was extremely difficult.

我知道，這一路走來異常艱難。

And it didn't seem, at least, that your sell outs,

而且你做出的種種犧牲，

whatever they were, were very big.

無論何種犧牲，都是巨大的。

You kept moving ahead in a life where you're dependent

致力於為他人服務的一生中，

on working for somebody.

你不斷前進，

But that's an interesting thing for a creative person.

但對於一個富有創造力的人來說，這很有趣，

A lot of us work for people;

很多像我們這樣的人都服務於他人，

we're in the hands of other people.

我們的生活在他人的股掌之中。

And that's one of the great dilemmas -- we're in a creativity session --

這是眾多窘境之一—我們身處一個創造的時代—

it's one of the great dilemmas in creativity:

這是創造力面對的最大的困境之一。

how to do work that's big enough and not sell out.

如何做到最大限度而又始終堅持自我。

And you've achieved that

而你做到了。

and that makes your win doubly big, triply big.

這給你帶來了雙贏—甚至多贏。

It's not quite a question but you can comment on it.

這不是一個問題，但你可以談談你的看法。

It's a big issue.

這很重要。

FG: Well, I've always just ...

蓋瑞：嗯，一直以來我只是—

I've never really gone out looking for work.

我從來沒有自己去找過工作，

I always waited for it to sort of hit me on the head.

我是守株待兔型的。

And when I started out,

剛開始的時候，

I thought that architecture was a service business

我認為建築業是門服務性行業，

and that you had to please the clients and stuff.

你必須取悅雇主和你的團隊。

And I realized when I'd come into the meetings

我意識到，我一走進會議室，

with these corrugated metal and chain link stuff,

夾著那些打了褶的金屬和鏈條什麼的，

and people would just look at me

人們只會看著我，

like I'd just landed from Mars.

好像我從火星來的似的。

But I couldn't do anything else.

但其他的我什麼都做不了。

That was my response to the people in the time.

那就是我對人們以及那個時代的回應。

And actually, it was responding to clients that I had

事實上，那是我對顧客的回應。

who didn't have very much money, so they couldn't afford very much.

他們沒有那麼多錢，負擔不起太好的材料。

I think it was circumstantial.

我覺得那是迫不得已。

Until I got to my house, where the client was my wife.

直到我弄自己的房子，這個時候老婆成了我的顧客。

We bought this tiny little bungalow in Santa Monica

我們在聖塔莫尼卡買了間小屋，

and for like 50 grand I built a house around it.

用大概5萬美元在那兒造了間房子。

And a few people got excited about it.

一些人見了那間房子很興奮。

I was visiting with an artist, Michael Heizer,

曾經我和一位藝術家，邁克爾•黑澤爾一起外出，

out in the desert near Las Vegas somewhere.

在拉斯維加斯附近的某個沙漠。

He's building this huge concrete place.

當時他正在那兒建一座巨大的混凝土建築。

And it was late in the evening. We'd had a lot to drink.

天有點晚了，我們喝了不少酒。

We were standing out in the desert all alone and,

就我倆，站在巨大的沙漠中間，他說—

thinking about my house, he said,

想到我的房子—他說，

"Did it ever occur to you if you built stuff more permanent,

你有沒有想過建些更加永恆的東西，

somewhere in 2000 years somebody's going to like it?"

在未來2000年裏都有人欣賞它。

(Laughter)

（笑♫）

So, I thought, "Yeah, that's probably a good idea."

我就想——是啊，說不定是個好主意。

Luckily I started to get some clients that had a little more money,

我很幸運，找到了一些稍有余錢的雇主，

so the stuff was a little more permanent.

建造的東西變得稍微“永恆”些了。

But I just found out the world ain't going to last that long,

之後我又發現世界永遠不會只為你持續那麼會兒。

this guy was telling us the other day.

有一天，這傢伙又告訴我們，

So where do we go now?

所以我們現在要往哪個方向走呢？

Back to -- everything's so temporary.

回到—一切都那麼暫時，轉眼即逝。

I don't see it the way you characterized it.

我眼中的世界和你不一樣，

For me, every day is a new thing.

對我來說，每一天都是全新的，

I approach each project with a new insecurity,

我每開始一個新專案，都帶著不安的心情，

almost like the first project I ever did,

像是對待我人生裡的第一個專案一樣。

and I get the sweats,

我付出汗水，

I go in and start working, I'm not sure where I'm going --

埋頭工作，不知道結果會是怎樣。

if I knew where I was going, I wouldn't do it.

如果我對前方一切了然於心，那我就不會去做。

When I can predict or plan it, I don't do it.

如果我能預測或者計畫一切，我也不會繼續下去。

I discard it.

我會把預測或者計畫丟到一邊去。

So I approach it with the same trepidation.

所以我才能帶著同樣的不穩定感對待每一個項目。

Obviously, over time I have a lot more confidence

當然，我的信心隨著時間累積著，

that it's going to be OK.

所以一切都會變好。

I do run a kind of a business --

我確實是在經營一門生意，

I've got 120 people

我有個120人的團隊，

and you've got to pay them,

要付給每個人薪水，

so there's a lot of responsibility involved --

這其中包含了很大責任。

but the actual work on the project is with,

但這工作的關鍵，

I think, a healthy insecurity.

我覺得是很合理的不安全感

And like the playwright said the other day -- I could relate to him:

正如那位劇作家說的—我引用他的話—

you're not sure.

你不確定。

When Bilbao was finished and I looked at it,

當畢爾巴鄂的工程（古根海姆美術館）結束的時候，我看著它，

I saw all the mistakes, I saw ...

我發現了所有的錯誤。

They weren't mistakes;

它們不能算是錯誤。

I saw everything that I would have changed

我看著我曾經可以改變的一切，

and I was embarrassed by it.

自己覺得有點難為情。

I felt an embarrassment -- "How could I have done that?

我覺得局促不安——怎麼弄成那樣了？

How could I have made shapes like that or done stuff like that?"

形狀怎麼成這樣，怎麼把那些地方弄成那個樣子？

It's taken several years to now look at it detached and say --

過好多年我才能超然地看著它，然後

as you walk around the corner and a piece of it works with the road

當你走過建築的拐角，發現有一塊地方與街道很契合，

and the street, and it appears to have a relationship --

它似乎和街道產生了一種聯繫，

that I started to like it.

我開始喜歡上了它。

RSW: What's the status of the New York project?

烏爾曼：紐約的項目怎麼樣了？

FG: I don't really know.

蓋瑞：我也不太清楚。

Tom Krens came to me with Bilbao and explained it all to me,

湯姆•科倫斯拿著畢爾巴鄂專案資料來找我，給我講了一番，

and I thought he was nuts.

當是我就覺得他是個瘋子，

I didn't think he knew what he was doing,

我認為他根本不知道自己在幹什麼。

and he pulled it off.

但是他把這事兒弄成了。

So, I think he's Icarus and Phoenix all in one guy.

所以我覺得他是伊卡洛斯和費尼克斯的合體。

(Laughter)

（笑）

He gets up there and then he ... comes back up.

他已經取得了很高成就—然後下去，又上來。

They're still talking about it.

直到現在大家都還在議論。

September 11 generated some interest

九一一事件後有人建議

in moving it over to Ground Zero,

將其移到世貿遺址。

and I'm totally against that.

而我堅決反對。

I just feel uncomfortable talking about or building anything on Ground Zero

談論世貿或者在世貿遺址上建東西我都覺得很不舒服。

I think for a long time.

這件事我想了很久。

RSW: The picture on the screen,

烏爾曼：螢幕上的這幅圖，

is that Disney?

是迪士尼嗎？

FG: Yeah.

蓋瑞：是的。

RSW: How much further along is it than that,

烏爾曼：還有多久，

and when will that be finished?

什麼時候能完工？

FG: That will be finished in 2003 -- September, October --

蓋瑞：要到2003年的九月或者十月。

and I'm hoping Kyu, and Herbie, and Yo-Yo and all those guys

到時候我希望Kyu, Herbie, 還有馬友友以及所有那些音樂家

come play with us at that place.

能和我們一起在那兒演出。

Luckily, today most of the people I'm working with are people I really like.

很幸運，今天和我在一起工作的人，大都是我很喜歡的。

Richard Koshalek is probably one of the main reasons

理查‧科沙萊克可能是迪士尼劇場找上我

that Disney Hall came to me.

的眾多因素中的主要原因。

He's been a cheerleader for quite a long time.

他一直都像個啦啦隊隊長似的。

There aren't many people around that are really involved

那個工程並沒有太多人涉及到

with architecture as clients.

建築風格設計。

If you think about the world,

你知道的，想想看這個世界

and even just in this audience,

包括我們面前的這些觀眾，

most of us are involved with buildings.

大多數人是與大樓相聯繫。

Nothing that you would call architecture, right?

你根本不會通過他們聯想到建築，對吧？

And so to find one, a guy like that,

所以找到一個那樣的人，

you hang on to him.

可以信賴的，你理解嗎？

He's become the head of Art Center,

他成為了藝術中心的主任，

and there's a building by Craig Ellwood there.

那兒已經有一座克雷格•埃爾伍德的作品。

I knew Craig and respected him.

我認識克雷格而且很尊敬他。

They want to add to it

他們想要再加點什麼。

and it's hard to add to a building like that --

但是很難在那樣的一座建築上再加個像它一樣的東西。

it's a beautiful, minimalist, black steel building --

那是一座漂亮、極簡的黑色鋼制建築，

and Richard wants to add a library and more student stuff

理查想要再建一個圖書館和一些為學生服務的設施。

and it's a lot of acreage.

那得占很大的地方。

I convinced him to let me bring in another architect

我說服他讓我帶上另一位建築師，

from Portugal: Alvaro Siza.

葡萄牙人，阿爾瓦羅•西紮。

RSW: Why did you want that?

烏爾曼：為什麼呢？

FG: I knew you'd ask that question.

蓋瑞：我就知道你得這樣問。

It was intuitive.

直覺吧。

(Laughter)

（笑）

Alvaro Siza grew up and lived in Portugal

蓋瑞：西紮在葡萄牙長大，也在那裏居住。

and is probably considered the Portuguese main guy in architecture.

現在被認為是葡萄牙建築學界的領軍人物。

I visited with him a few years ago

前些年我和他有過會面。

and he showed me his early work,

他給我看了一些他的早期作品。

and his early work had a resemblance to my early work.

他的早期作品和我的早期作品有些相似之處。

When I came out of college,

當我剛從學校畢業，

I started to try to do things contextually in Southern California,

我開始嘗試在南加州做一些地域性的東西。

and you got into the logic of Spanish colonial tile roofs

想到西班牙殖民時期的磚瓦屋頂風格

and things like that.

以及那類的東西。

I tried to understand that language as a beginning,

我以理解那種語言為開端，

as a place to jump off,

把它當做一塊跳板。

and there was so much of it being done by spec builders

那兒已經有太多的模式化建造者，

and it was trivialized so much that it wasn't ...

建築元素被過於淡化以至於不能—

I just stopped.

於是我停了下來。

I mean, Charlie Moore did a bunch of it,

我的意思是，查理•摩爾做了很多類似的東西，

but it didn't feel good to me.

但我無法被它們吸引。

Siza, on the other hand, continued in Portugal

另一方面西紮，在葡萄牙

where the real stuff was

進行著實實在在的實踐，

and evolved a modern language that relates to that historic language.

演化成了一種與歷史語言相聯繫的現代語言。

And I always felt that he should come to Southern California

我一直覺得他可以到南加州來

and do a building.

做一個工程。

I tried to get him a couple of jobs and they didn't pan out.

我嘗試給他爭取一些項目，但是沒有成功。

I like the idea of collaboration with people like that

而且我喜歡與這樣的人合作，

because it pushes you.

因為這樣會一直推動我。

I've done it with Claes Oldenburg and with Richard Serra,

我曾經與克拉斯•歐登伯格和裏查德•塞拉合作過，

who doesn't think architecture is art.

他們並不將建築視為藝術。

Did you see that thing?

你注意到了嗎？

RSW: No. What did he say?

烏爾曼：他怎麼說的？

FG: He calls architecture "plumbing."

蓋瑞：他把建築叫做“鉛工業。”

(Laughter)

（笑）

FG: Anyway, the Siza thing.

蓋瑞：不論如何，與西紮的合作，

It's a richer experience.

是很豐富很有意義的經歷。

It must be like that for Kyu doing things with musicians --

正像Kyu與其他音樂家合作，

it's similar to that I would imagine --

我覺得與西紮合作就是那麼個感覺。

where you ... huh?

你會—呃？

Audience: Liquid architecture.

觀眾：液態建築。

FG: Liquid architecture.

蓋瑞：液態建築。

(Laughter)

（笑）

Where you ... It's like jazz: you improvise, you work together,

就像爵士樂—你可以即興發揮，大家一起演奏。

you play off each other, you make something,

你們互相挑戰，你弄點兒什麼，

they make something.

他們再弄點兒什麼。

And I think

我認為這是一種—

for me, it's a way of trying to understand the city

對我來說，這是一種理解一個城市的方法，

and what might happen in the city.

以及這個城市將會發生什麼。

RSW: Is it going to be near the current campus?

烏爾曼：它會建在現有的場地附近嗎？

Or is it going to be down near ...

還是會在—

FG: No, it's near the current campus.

蓋瑞：不，它就在現有場地附近。

Anyway, he's that kind of patron.

不論如何，他就是那種顧客。

It's not his money, of course.

當然，那不是他的錢就是了。

(Laughter)

（笑）

RSW: What's his schedule on that?

烏爾曼：對此他的計畫是什麼？

FG: I don't know.

蓋瑞：我不知道。

What's the schedule, Richard?

什麼計畫，理查？

Richard Koshalek: [Unclear] starts from 2004.

理查：2004年開工。

FG: 2004.

蓋瑞：2004。

You can come to the opening. I'll invite you.

你可以來參加開工典禮，我會邀請你的。

No, but the issue of city building in democracy is interesting

不，但民主的城市建設很有趣，

because it creates chaos, right?

因為會造成混亂，是嗎？

Everybody doing their thing makes a very chaotic environment,

每個人各幹各的會造成一種非常混亂的局面，

and if you can figure out how to work off each other --

如果你能找出勝過對方的方法—

if you can get a bunch of people

我是說，不是那個意思—如果你能找到一群人，

who respect each other's work and play off each other,

在互相尊重的前提下良性競爭，

you might be able to create models for

就可能實現建設城市的各個分區

how to build sections of the city without resorting to the one architect.

而不僅僅依賴于一個建築模型。

Like the Rockefeller Center model,

就像是洛克菲勒中心模型，

which is kind of from another era.

像是另一個時代的作品。

RSW: I found the most remarkable thing.

烏爾曼：我找到了最值得稱道的東西了。

My preconception of Bilbao was this wonderful building,

我對畢爾巴鄂項目的預想是這樣一座精彩的建築，

you go inside and there'd be extraordinary spaces.

進去之後有非凡的空間。

I'd seen drawings you had presented here at TED.

我看過你以前在TED展示的草圖。

The surprise of Bilbao was in its context to the city.

畢爾巴鄂的驚喜是它與城市地域的互相適應。

That was the surprise of going across the river,

這種驚喜是跨過河流

of going on the highway around it,

連接周圍的高速公路，

of walking down the street and finding it.

沿街行走突然邂逅它的驚喜。

That was the real surprise of Bilbao.

這正是畢爾巴鄂的驚喜所在。

FG: But you know, Richard,

蓋瑞：但是你知道的，理查，

most architects when they present their work --

大多數建築師展示他們的作品時—

most of the people we know,

我們認識他們，

you get up and you talk about your work,

會站起來，談論自己的作品，

and it's almost like you tell everybody you're a good guy

就像告訴所有人他是個好人，

by saying, "Look, I'm worried about the context,

說道，我考慮環境問題，

I'm worried about the city,

我考慮這座城市，

I'm worried about my client,

我為我的雇主著想，

I worry about budget, that I'm on time."

我要考慮預算，我要如期完工。

Blah, blah, blah and all that stuff.

就是這類話。

And it's like cleansing yourself so that you can ...

就像是想要拼命洗清自己

by saying all that, it means your work is good somehow.

好像說了那些，就可以一定程度上說明工作完成得不錯。

And I think everybody --

而且我認為每個人

I mean that should be a matter of fact, like gravity.

我是指應該像對待事實，像重力。

You're not going to defy gravity.

你不可能否認重力的存在。

You've got to work with the building department.

你必須和建築部門合作。

If you don't meet the budgets, you're not going to get much work.

如果預算有限制，你就不能做太多。

If it leaks --

如果發生滲水—

Bilbao did not leak.

畢爾巴鄂可沒有滲水，

I was so proud.

這讓我非常驕傲。

(Laughter)

（笑）

The MIT project -- they were interviewing me for MIT

麻省理工的項目——他們就那個項目面試我，

and they sent their facilities people to Bilbao.

派工作人員去畢爾巴鄂。

I met them in Bilbao.

我在畢爾巴鄂和他們見面。

They came for three days.

他們在那待了三天。

RSW: This is the computer building?

烏爾曼：所以這是棟電腦建設囉？

FG: Yeah, the computer building.

蓋瑞：是的。

They were there three days and it rained every day

他們待的那三天，天天下雨。

and they kept walking around --

他們一直到處轉。

I noticed they were looking under things

我注意到他們總在往底下看，

and looking for things,

在找什麼東西一樣。

and they wanted to know where the buckets were hidden, you know?

你知道嗎，他們想知道水桶都藏在哪兒了？

People put buckets out ...

人們一般把桶擱外邊

I was clean. There wasn't a bloody leak in the place,

我可一身清白！那地方滴水不漏。

it was just fantastic.

太棒了。

But you've got to --

但是你得

yeah, well up until then every building leaked, so this ...

嗯，過些日子什麼房子都會有滲水的毛病，所以說

(Laughter)

（笑）

RSW: Frank had a sort of ...

烏爾曼：弗蘭克有種

FG: Ask Miriam!

蓋瑞：去問米里亞姆

RW: ... sort of had a fame. His fame was built on that in L.A. for a while.

很有名聲——一陣子他在洛杉磯的名望就是靠“不漏水”得來的。

(Laughter)

（笑）

FG: You've all heard the Frank Lloyd Wright story,

蓋瑞：你們都聽說過弗蘭克•勞埃德•賴特的故事。

when the woman called and said,

一個女人打電話說

"Mr. Wright, I'm sitting on the couch

賴特先生，我當時躺在躺椅上，

and the water's pouring in on my head."

水就直接澆在我頭上。

And he said, "Madam, move your chair."

他回答：太太，您挪挪椅子。

(Laughter)

（笑）

So, some years later I was doing a building,

若干年後我做另一個專案，

a little house on the beach for Norton Simon,

為諾頓•西蒙在海灘上建一棟房子。

and his secretary, who was kind of a hell on wheels type lady,

他的秘書，一位嚴肅苛刻的小姐，

called me and said,

打電話給我說：

"Mr. Simon's sitting at his desk

西蒙先生正坐在他的書桌前，

and the water's coming in on his head."

水正落在他的頭頂上。

And I told her the Frank Lloyd Wright story.

我就把弗蘭克•勞埃德•賴特的故事講給她聽。

RSW: Didn't get a laugh.

烏爾曼：她當時肯定沒笑。

FG: No. Not now either.

蓋瑞：是的，就是現在也不會。

(Laughter)

（笑）

But my point is that ... and I call it the "then what?"

我的意思是—我能不能這麼說“那又怎麼樣？”

OK, you solved all the problems,

好吧，你解決了所有問題。

you did all the stuff, you made nice,

你都做了，幹得不錯。

you loved your clients,

你喜歡你的客戶，

you loved the city,

你喜愛這個城市。

you're a good guy, you're a good person ...

你是個好人—一個不錯的傢伙。

and then what?

那又如何？

What do you bring to it?

你到底帶來了什麼呢？

And I think that's what I've always been interested in,

這才是一直以來我的興趣所在。

is that -- which is a personal kind of expression.

就是—一種個人表達，

Bilbao, I think, shows that you can have

畢爾巴鄂，我認為，就展現出你可以有

that kind of personal expression

這種個人表達，

and still touch all the bases that are necessary

而且符合所有必要的條件

of fitting into the city.

來融入這個城市。

That's what reminded me of it.

這提醒我想到了它。

And I think that's the issue, you know;

我認為那才是重點，你知道的。

it's the "then what" that most clients who hire architects --

就是“那又怎樣”讓大多雇傭了建築師的客戶

most clients aren't hiring architects for that.

大多客戶並不是為了那個雇傭建築師。

They're hiring them to get it done, get it on budget,

建築師至是被雇來完成專案，把握好預算

be polite,

你知道的，以禮相待。

and they're missing out on the real value of an architect.

他們忽略了建築師的真正價值所在。

RSW: At a certain point a number of years ago, people --

烏爾曼：在一個時期，一些年前，人們

when Michael Graves was a fashion, before teapots ...

在邁克爾•格雷夫斯很受歡迎的時候，在茶壺以前

FG: I did a teapot and nobody bought it.

蓋瑞：我也做過茶壺，但沒人買我的賬。

(Laughter)

（笑）

RSW: Did it leak?

烏爾曼：它漏不？

FG: No.

蓋瑞：不。

(Laughter)

（笑）

RSW: ... people wanted a Michael Graves building.

烏爾曼：人們想要邁克爾•格雷夫斯那樣的建築。

Is that a curse, that people want a Bilbao building?

是不是因為如此，人們都想要畢爾巴鄂那樣的建築物?

FG: Yeah.

是啊，我接到過這種電話。

Since Bilbao opened, which is now four, five years,

當畢爾巴鄂開放的時候——大概距現在有四五年了吧，我也記不清了——

both Krens and I have been called

科倫斯和我都接到很多這樣的電話，

with at least 100 opportunities --

我也不清楚了，大概至少有100個。

China, Brazil, other parts of Spain --

中國的，巴西的，還有西班牙其他地方的。

to come in and do the Bilbao effect.

都想要做畢爾巴鄂那樣的效果。

And I've met with some of these people.

這些人我也見了一些。

Usually I say no right away,

通常，我都直接拒絕，

but some of them come with pedigree

但是有些人把家譜都拿來了，

and they sound well-intentioned

他們聽上去挺好心。

and they get you for at least one or two meetings.

他們找到你，開至少一兩次會

In one case, I flew all the way to Malaga with a team

有一次我和團隊飛到馬拉加去

because the thing was signed with seals and various

因為邀請函上有各種蓋章和簽名

very official seals from the city,

你知道的——非常官方的城市簽章

and that they wanted me to come and do a building in their port.

他們想讓我在港口建一座建築。

I asked them what kind of building it was.

我問他們想要什麼樣的

"When you get here we'll explain it." Blah, blah, blah.

“你來了我們就會告訴你的——”諸如此類的話

So four of us went.

我們四個人一起去了

And they took us -- they put us up in a great hotel

他們接待了我們，安排了非常好的酒店。

and we were looking over the bay,

然後帶我們去看那個海灣。

and then they took us in a boat out in the water

他們帶我們乘船出海

and showed us all these sights in the harbor.

給我們看海港的景觀

Each one was more beautiful than the other.

一個比一個美麗

And then we were going to have lunch with the mayor

然後我們要去和市長一起吃午餐

and we were going to have dinner with

再和馬拉加的重量級人士

the most important people in Malaga.

一起吃晚餐

Just before going to lunch with the mayor,

就在去和市長午餐之前

we went to the harbor commissioner.

我們去見了港口的行政長官

It was a table as long as this carpet

那張桌子能有這塊地毯長

and the harbor commissioner was here,

行政官就坐那兒

and I was here, and my guys.

我們四個在這裏

We sat down, and we had a drink of water

我們坐下，喝了點水

and everybody was quiet.

每個人都很安靜

And the guy looked at me and said,

那個人看著我，說

"Now what can I do for you, Mr. Gehry?"

“我能為你做些什麼，蓋瑞先生？”

(Laughter)

（笑）

RSW: Oh, my God.

烏爾曼：哦，老天

FG: So, I got up.

蓋瑞：于是我就站了起來

I said to my team,

跟我的團隊說

"Let's get out of here."

咱們撤吧

We stood up, we walked out.

我們站起來，走了出去。

They followed -- the guy that dragged us there followed us and he said,

他們跟著——那個人一路跟著我們，然後說

"You mean you're not going to have lunch with the mayor?"

您難道不去和市長吃午餐了嗎？

I said, "Nope."

我說：“不了。”

"You're not going to have dinner at all?"

您也不吃晚餐了嗎?

They just brought us there to hustle this group,

他們就只是帶我們去那，把這夥人湊在一起，

you know, to create a project.

你知道的，創造出一個計劃。

And we get a lot of that.

這樣的还有很多。

Luckily, I'm old enough that

還好我已經夠老的了

I can complain I can't travel.

我可以把不能長途旅行當藉口。

(Laughter)

（笑）

I don't have my own plane yet.

我還沒有私人飛機。

RSW: Well, I'm going to wind this up and wind up the meeting

烏爾曼：我要收收尾了，差不多結束這次談話

because it's been very long.

因為它已經夠長的了

But let me just say a couple words.

请允许我說兩句

FG: Can I say something?

蓋瑞：我能說兩句嗎？

Are you going to talk about me or you?

你是想說我還是你自己啊？

(Laughter)

（笑）

(Applause)

（鼓掌♫）

RSW: Once a shit, always a shit!

江山易改本性難移

FG: Because I want to get a standing ovation like everybody, so ...

蓋瑞：我是想體驗一下站起來接受掌聲的感覺，所以

RSW: You're going to get one! You're going to get one!

烏爾曼：肯定有機會的嘛！

(Laughter)

（笑）

I'm going to make it for you!

烏爾曼：我要給你鼓個掌先！

FG: No, no. Wait a minute!

蓋瑞：不，不，等等！

(Applause)

（鼓掌♫）