My Country Will Be Underwater Soon -- Unless We Work Together | Anote Tong | TED Talks

譯者: Regina Chu 審譯者: Marssi Draw

Chris Anderson: Perhaps we could start by just telling us about your country.

克里斯安德森： 或許我們可以從介紹你的國家開始。

It's three dots there on the globe. Those dots are pretty huge.

就是地球上的那三個點。 這些點還相當大。

I think each one is about the size of California.

我想每個點都相當於加州大。

Tell us about Kiribati.

跟我們介紹一下吉里巴斯。

Anote Tong: Well, let me first begin by saying how deeply grateful I am

湯安諾：首先容我表達 深深的感謝之意，

for this opportunity to share my story with people who do care.

能有機會對真正關心的人 分享我的故事。

I think I've been sharing my story with a lot of people who don't care too much.

我想我已經對太多 不太關心的人說過我的故事。

But Kiribati is comprised of three groups of islands:

吉里巴斯由三個群島組成：

the Gilbert Group on the west,

西邊的吉爾伯特群島，

we have the Phoenix Islands in the middle,

中間的鳳凰群島，

and the Line Islands in the east.

和東邊的萊恩群島。

And quite frankly, Kiribati is perhaps the only country

坦白說，吉里巴斯或許是唯一

that is actually in the four corners of the world,

佔據世界四個角落的國家，

because we are in the Northern Hemisphere, in the Southern Hemisphere,

因為我們不但 坐落在北半球、南半球，

and also in the east and the west of the International Date Line.

也在國際換日線的東西兩邊。

These islands are entirely made up of coral atolls,

這些島嶼完全由珊瑚環礁組成，

and on average about two meters above sea level.

平均高於海平面二公尺。

And so this is what we have.

這就是我們的情況。

Usually not more than two kilometers in width.

通常不會超過兩公里寬。

And so, on many occasions, I've been asked by people,

所以，很多時候大家問我：

"You know, you're suffering, why don't you move back?"

「你們這麼痛苦， 為什麼你們不往內搬？」

They don't understand.

他們不懂。

They have no concept of what it is that's involved.

他們一點都沒概念 這牽涉什麼。

With the rising sea, they say, "Well, you can move back."

隨著海平面上升，他們說： 「你們可以往內搬。」

And so this is what I tell them.

這是我對他們的回答。

If we move back, we will fall off on the other side of the ocean. OK?

如果我們往內搬， 會從另一邊掉到海裡去，好嗎？

But these are the kinds of issues that people don't understand.

這些就是大家都不了解的問題。

CA: So certainly this is just a picture of fragility there.

克：這張照片無疑 顯示出你們的脆弱。

When was it that you yourself realized

你從什麼時候領悟到

that there might be impending peril for your country?

你的國家或許有危險逼近？

AT: Well, the story of climate change has been one that has been going on

湯：氣候變遷的情況

for quite a number of decades.

已經流傳了幾十年。

And when I came into office in 2003,

我於 2003 年當選總統時，

I began talking about climate change at the United Nations General Assembly,

開始在聯合國大會談論氣候變遷，

but not with so much passion,

但是當時我並沒有太多熱情，

because then there was still this controversy among the scientists

因為那時候科學界對此 仍然存有歧見，

whether it was human-induced, whether it was real or it wasn't.

到底是不是人為， 到底是真還是假。

But I think that that debate was fairly much concluded in 2007

但是我想在 2007 年 爭議大抵結束，

with the Fourth Assessment Report of the IPCC,

《政府間氣候變化專門委員會 第四次評估報告》

which made a categorical statement that it is real, it's human-induced,

發表明確聲明， 指出此為真實、人為的情況，

and it's predicting some very serious scenarios

並預測會有非常嚴重的情況發生在

for countries like mine.

像我們這樣的國家。

And so that's when I got very serious.

那時我才開始認真起來。

In the past, I talked about it.

過去我只是談論它。

We were worried.

我們很擔心。

But when the scenarios, the predictions came in 2007,

但在 2007 年發布預測情況時，

it became a real issue for us.

這變成我們真正的問題。

CA: Now, those predictions are, I think, that by 2100,

克：我想現在的預測是 到了 2100 年，

sea levels are forecast to rise perhaps three feet.

海平面可能會升高三呎。

There's scenarios where it's higher than that, for sure,

還有一些預測說會比那還高，

but what would you say to a skeptic who said,

但你要怎麼對懷疑論者解釋？

"What's three feet?

他們說：「三呎又怎麼樣？

You're on average six feet above sea level.

你們平均高於海平面六呎，

What's the problem?"

哪裡有問題？」

AT: Well, I think it's got to be understood

湯：我想大家都必須了解

that a marginal rise in sea level

沿岸的海平面上升，

would mean a loss of a lot of land,

代表你會失去很多土地，

because much of the land is low.

因為通常沿海的土地都很低。

And quite apart from that, we are getting the swells at the moment.

就算撇開這個不談， 我們現在也有湧浪，

So it's not about getting two feet.

所以這不僅僅是升高兩呎而已。

I think what many people do not understand

我想很多人不瞭解，

is they think climate change is something that is happening in the future.

他們以為氣候變遷是未來的事。

Well, we're at the very bottom end of the spectrum.

但是我們最先受到影響。

It's already with us.

它已經影響了我們。

We have communities who already have been dislocated.

我們已經有社區必須搬離。

They have had to move, and every parliament session,

他們必須搬遷， 每一次議會開議期間，

I'm getting complaints from different communities

我都聽到來自不同社區的抱怨，

asking for assistance to build seawalls,

要求援助蓋海堤，

to see what we can do about the freshwater lens

看我們能不能拯救淡水透鏡體，

because it's being destroyed,

因為這些都被破壞了，

and so in my trips to the different islands,

所以每次我到不同的島上，

I'm seeing evidence of communities

我都看到社區

which are now having to cope with the loss of food crops,

現在必須面對糧食作物損失，

the contamination of the water lenses,

及淡水透鏡體遭受汙染的證據，

and I see these communities perhaps leaving, having to relocate,

我也看到這些社區 也許必須離開、遷移，

within five to 10 years.

在五到十年內。

CA: And then, I think the country suffered its first cyclone,

克：之前這個國家 首次遭到氣旋侵襲，

and this is connected, yes? What happened here?

這些都有關連，對嗎？ 怎麼會發生這種事？

AT: Well, we're on the equator,

湯：我們位於赤道上，

and I'm sure many of you understand that when you're on the equator,

我確信在座很多人瞭解 如果你位於赤道，

it's supposed to be in the doldrums. We're not supposed to get the cyclones.

就應該是在赤道無風帶上。 我們不應該有氣旋。

We create them, and then we send them either north or south.

應該是我們產生氣旋， 然後往北邊南邊送。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But they aren't supposed to come back.

但是它們不該跑回來。

But for the first time, at the beginning of this year,

但這是破天荒頭一遭， 在今年年初，

the Cyclone Pam, which destroyed Vanuatu,

熱帶氣旋帕姆摧毀了萬那杜，

and in the process, the very edges of it actually touched

這個氣旋肆虐期間， 邊緣其實掃過

our two southernmost islands,

我們最南端的兩個島嶼，

and all of Tuvalu was underwater when Hurricane Pam struck.

帕姆颶風把整個吐瓦魯都淹沒了。

But for our two southernmost islands,

但是我們兩個最南端的島嶼，

we had waves come over half the island,

超過一半的島被巨浪吞噬，

and so this has never happened before.

這真是前所未見。

It's a new experience.

這是全新的經驗。

And I've just come back from my own constituency,

我才剛從我的選區回來，

and I've seen these beautiful trees which had been there for decades,

我看到一些漂亮的樹 過去幾十年都屹立不搖，

they've been totally destroyed.

卻被徹底摧毀。

So this is what's happening,

所以這就是現況，

but when we talk about the rising sea level,

但是當我們談海平面上升，

we think it's something that happens gradually.

我們都以為這是慢慢發生的事。

It comes with the winds, it comes with the swells,

它會隨著風來， 它會隨著湧浪來，

and so they can be magnified,

所以會有放大的現象，

but what we are beginning to witness is the change in the weather pattern,

但是我們開始目睹天氣型態改變，

which is perhaps the more urgent challenge

這也許是更緊急的挑戰，

that we will face sooner than perhaps the rising sea level.

我們很快就要面對， 可能比海平面上升更緊急。

CA: So the country is already seeing effects now.

克：所以這個國家 現在已經開始看到效應。

As you look forward,

往未來看，

what are your options as a country, as a nation?

你們身為一個國家 有什麼樣的選擇？

AT: Well, I've been telling this story every year.

湯：我每年都要說這個故事。

I think I visit a number of --

我想我去過很多——

I've been traveling the world to try and get people to understand.

我拜訪全世界， 試著讓大家瞭解情況。

We have a plan, we think we have a plan.

我們有個計畫， 我們認為我們有個計畫。

And on one occasion, I think I spoke in Geneva

有一次我在日內瓦演說，

and there was a gentleman who was interviewing me

有位先生訪問我，

on something like this,

就像現在這樣，

and I said, "We are looking at floating islands,"

我說：「我們想做漂浮島。」

and he thought it was funny, but somebody said,

他覺得很好笑， 但是有個人說：

"No, this is not funny. These people are looking for solutions."

「這一點都不好笑， 這些人在找解決方案。」

And so I have been looking at floating islands.

所以我在研究漂浮島。

The Japanese are interested in building floating islands.

日本對建造漂浮島很有興趣。

But, as a country, we have made a commitment

但是，身為一個國家， 我們做出了承諾，

that no matter what happens, we will try as much as possible

無論發生什麼事，

我們都要盡可能留在島上， 繼續以國家存在。

to stay and continue to exist as a nation.

What that will take,

但是這個代價

it's going to be something quite significant,

將會非常大，

very, very substantial.

非常、非常可觀。

Either we live on floating islands,

我們要不就在漂浮島上生活，

or we have to build up the islands to continue to stay out of the water

要不就是增高島嶼， 讓我們不會被淹沒，

as the sea level rises and as the storms get more severe.

因為海平面上升， 暴風也會愈來愈強烈。

But even that, it's going to be very, very difficult

即便如此， 我們也非常、非常難

to get the kind of resourcing that we would need.

取得所需的資源。

CA: And then the only recourse is some form of forced migration.

克：要不然最後的手段 就是某種形式的強制遷移。

AT: Well, we are also looking at that

湯：我們也在研究這個，

because in the event that nothing comes forward

因為在沒有國際協助的情況下，

from the international community,

we are preparing,

我們要預備好，

we don't want to be caught like what's happening in Europe.

我們不想被困在 像歐洲現在的情況，

OK? We don't want to mass migrate at some point in time.

好嗎？我們不想看到 大規模遷移發生。

We want to be able to give the people the choice today,

我們希望今天能給人民選擇，

those who choose and want to do that, to migrate.

想要遷移的人可以遷移。

We don't want something to happen that they are forced to migrate

我們不想看到大家被強制遷移，

without having been prepared to do so.

而且毫無防備。

Of course, our culture is very different, our society is very different,

當然，我們的文化很不一樣， 我們的社會很不一樣，

and once we migrate into a different environment,

一旦我們遷移進入不同的環境，

a different culture,

不同的文化，

there's a whole lot of adjustments that are required.

一定需要很多的調適。

CA: Well, there's forced migration in your country's past,

克：過去你的國家 曾有過強制遷移，

and I think just this week,

我想就在這個星期，

just yesterday or the day before yesterday,

就在昨天或前天，

you visited these people.

你訪問了這些人。

What happened here? What's the story here?

發生了什麼事？ 是怎樣的情況？

AT: Yes, and I'm sorry, I think somebody was asking

湯：是，而且很抱歉， 我知道有人在問

why we were sneaking off to visit that place.

為什麼我們要溜出去 訪問那個地方。

I had a very good reason, because we have a community of Kiribati people

我有個很好的理由， 因為有一群吉里巴斯人

living in that part of the Solomon Islands,

住在索羅門群島上那塊區域，

but these were people who were relocated from the Phoenix Islands, in fact,

但是他們其實是在 1960 年代

從鳳凰群島搬遷到那裡的。

in the 1960s.

There was serious drought, and the people could not continue to live on the island,

那時有嚴重的乾旱， 人民無法繼續在島上生活，

and so they were moved to live here in the Solomon Islands.

所以他們搬到索羅門群島這裡。

And so yesterday it was very interesting to meet with these people.

昨天與這些人會面很有意思。

They didn't know who I was. They hadn't heard of me.

他們不知道我是誰。 他們沒聽過我。

Some of them later recognized me,

有些人後來認出我，

but I think they were very happy.

但是我想他們都很高興。

Later they really wanted to have the opportunity to welcome me formally.

後來他們真的想要 辦一個正式的歡迎會。

But I think what I saw yesterday was very interesting

但是我想昨天 我看到的情況非常有意思，

because here I see our people.

因為我在這裡看到我們的人民。

I spoke in our language, and of course they spoke back, they replied,

我用我們的語言與他們交談， 當然他們也用同樣的語言回答，

but their accent, they are beginning not to be able to speak Kiribati properly.

但是他們有口音，他們已經開始 講不太標準的吉里巴斯話。

I saw them, there was this lady with red teeth.

我看見他們， 有位女士有紅色的牙齒。

She was chewing betel nuts,

她在嚼檳榔，

and it's not something we do in Kiribati.

我們在吉里巴斯不吃這個。

We don't chew betel nuts.

我們不嚼檳榔。

I met also a family who have married the local people here,

我也遇到一個家庭與當地人通婚，

and so this is what is happening.

這就是實際情況。

As you go into another community, there are bound to be changes.

你進入另一個社區， 就會發生必然的改變。

There is bound to be a certain loss of identity,

必然會喪失某種程度的認同感，

and this is what we will be looking for in the future

這就是我們在未來會看到的現象，

if and when we do migrate.

如果我們選擇遷移。

CA: It must have been just an extraordinarily emotional day

克：那必定是非常激動的一天，

because of these questions about identity,

因為這些身分認同的問題，

the joy of seeing you and perhaps an emphasized sense of what they had lost.

看到你的喜悅， 或許加強了他們的失落感。

And it's very inspiring to hear you say you're going to fight to the end

所以其實很讓人感動 聽到你說你要奮戰到底，

to try to preserve the nation in a location.

試著讓這個國家保留在原地。

AT: This is our wish.

湯：這是我們的願望。

Nobody wants ever to leave their home,

沒有人想離開自己的家，

and so it's been a very difficult decision for me.

所以這對我是個很艱難的決定。

As a leader, you don't make plans to leave your island, your home,

你當領袖，不想計畫 離開你的島、你的家，

and so I've been asked on a number of occasions,

我在不同的場合被問了好多次，

"So how do you feel?"

「你有什麼感受？」

And it doesn't feel good at all.

這一點都不好受。

It's an emotional thing, and I've tried to live with it,

這是很感傷的事， 我一直試著與其共存，

and I know that on occasions, I'm accused of not trying to solve the problem

我知道有時候， 我被指責沒有試著解決問題，

because I can't solve the problem.

因為我無法解決這個問題。

It's something that's got to be done collectively.

這必須集體合作才做得到。

Climate change is a global phenomenon, and as I've often argued,

氣候變遷是全球現象， 正如我常提出的，

unfortunately, the countries, when we come to the United Nations --

不幸的是，各國到聯合國開會時，

I was in a meeting with the Pacific Island Forum countries

我與太平洋島國論壇國家開會，

where Australia and New Zealand are also members,

澳洲及紐西蘭也是論壇成員，

and we had an argument.

我們有一項爭執。

There was a bit of a story in the news

新聞曾經報過一點，

because they were arguing that to cut emissions,

因為他們認為要減少排放量

it would be something that they're unable to do

是他們做不到的事情，

because it would affect the industries.

因為那會影響產業。

And so here I was saying,

我當時就說，

OK, I hear you,

是，我懂你的意思，

I understand what you're saying,

我知道你在說什麼，

but try also to understand what I'm saying

但也請試著瞭解我在說什麼，

because if you do not cut your emissions,

因為如果你不減少排放量，

then our survival is on the line.

那我們的生存就岌岌可危。

And so it's a matter for you to weigh this, these moral issues.

所以這是你要權衡的問題， 這些道德問題。

It's about industry as opposed to the survival of a people.

這是產業對上人民存亡。

CA: You know, I ask you yesterday what made you angry,

克：昨天我問你， 是什麼讓你生氣，

and you said, "I don't get angry." But then you paused.

你說：「我沒有生氣。」 但是你馬上頓了一下。

I think this made you angry.

我想這就是讓你生氣的原因。

AT: I'd refer you to my earlier statement at the United Nations.

湯：我要向你指出 早先我在聯合國發表的聲明，

I was very angry, very frustrated and then depressed.

我很生氣，非常灰心， 而且很消沉沮喪。

There was a sense of futility

有一種徒勞無功的感覺，

that we are fighting a fight that we have no hope of winning.

好像我們在打一場 毫無勝算的仗。

I had to change my approach.

我必須改變我的做法。

I had to become more reasonable

我必須變得更理性，

because I thought people would listen to somebody who was rational,

因為我認為大家會聽 理性的人說話，

but I remain radically rational, whatever that is.

但是我保持「極其理性」， 不管這是什麼意思。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CA: Now, a core part of your nation's identity is fishing.

克：你的國家最主要的部分是漁業，

I think you said pretty much everyone is involved in fishing in some way.

我想你說過幾乎每個人 都跟漁業有點關係。

AT: Well, we eat fish every day, every day,

湯：我們每天都吃魚， 天天如此，

and I think there is no doubt that our rate of consumption of fish

而且我想我們吃魚的量

is perhaps the highest in the world.

無疑可說是世界最高的，

We don't have a lot of livestock,

我們沒有很多家畜，

so it's fish that we depend on.

所以我們都靠魚維生。

CA: So you're dependent on fish, both at the local level

克：所以你們都靠魚維生， 無論是從地方層面，

and for the revenues that the country receives

還是這個國家

from the global fishing business for tuna,

從全球鮪魚業收到的 收入都是如此，

and yet despite that, a few years ago you took a very radical step.

儘管如此，幾年前你採取了 一個非常激進的手段。

Can you tell us about that?

可以說明一下嗎？

I think something happened right here in the Phoenix Islands.

我想跟鳳凰群島這裡 發生的事有關。

AT: Let me give some of the background of what fish means for us.

湯：容我說明一下 魚對我們有何意義。

We have one of the largest tuna fisheries remaining in the world.

我們的鮪魚漁場 是全球現存極少數的大漁場。

In the Pacific, I think we own something like 60 percent

我想我們在太平洋

擁有世界僅存約六成的鮪魚漁場，

of the remaining tuna fisheries,

and it remains relatively healthy for some species, but not all.

這個漁場對某些魚種來說還算健康， 但不是全都這樣。

And Kiribati is one of the three major resource owners,

吉里巴斯是三大資源擁有國之一，

tuna resource owners.

鮪魚資源擁有國。

And at the moment, we have been getting

目前我們收到的收入，

something like 80 to 90 percent of our revenue

大約八成到九成

from access fees, license fees.

是入漁費、捕撈執照費。

CA: Of your national revenue.

克：你是指國庫收入。

AT: National revenue,

湯：國庫收入，

which drives everything that we do

推動我們所做的一切，

in governments, hospitals, schools and what have you.

政府、醫院、學校諸如此類。

But we decided to close this, and it was a very difficult decision.

但是我們決定要關掉這個漁場， 這是非常困難的決定。

I can assure you, politically, locally, it was not easy,

我可以向你保證，在政治上、 在當地發展上，都很困難，

but I was convinced that we had to do this

但是我堅信我們必須這麼做，

in order to ensure that the fishery remains sustainable.

以確保漁場能永續發展。

There had been some indications that some of the species,

已經有指標指出有些魚種，

in particular the bigeye, was under serious threat.

尤其是大目鮪面臨嚴重威脅。

The yellowfin was also heavily fished.

黃鰭鮪也過度捕撈。

Skipjack remains healthy.

鰹鮪還算豐沛。

And so we had to do something like that, and so that was the reason I did that.

所以我們必須採取措施， 這也就是我做出此項決定的原因。

Another reason why I did that

另一個我做出這個決定的原因，

was because I had been asking the international community

是因為我被國際社會質問，

that in order to deal with climate change, in order to fight climate change,

為了要因應氣候變遷， 要對抗氣候變遷，

there has got to be sacrifice, there has got to be commitment.

一定得有所犧牲， 一定得有所承諾。

So in asking the international community to make a sacrifice,

在要求國際社會犧牲的同時，

I thought we ourselves need to make that sacrifice.

我想我們自己也得有所犧牲。

And so we made the sacrifice.

所以我們作出犧牲。

And forgoing commercial fishing

停止商業捕撈

in the Phoenix Islands protected area

在鳳凰群島保護海域

would mean a loss of revenue.

意味著損失收入。

We are still trying to assess what that loss would be

我們還在評估損失情況，

because we actually closed it off at the beginning of this year,

因為我們今年初才關閉漁場，

and so we will see by the end of this year

我們到今年年底才會知道

what it means in terms of the lost revenue.

到底損失層面有多大。

CA: So there's so many things playing into this.

克：所以這牽涉很廣。

On the one hand, it may prompt healthier fisheries.

一方面，這可以促使漁場更豐沛。

I mean, how much are you able to move the price up

那你能調漲多少

that you charge for the remaining areas?

其它僅存的漁場入漁費上？

AT: The negotiations have been very difficult,

湯：這方面的協商極為困難，

but we have managed to raise the cost of a vessel day.

但是我們已經成功調漲 每艘船每天的捕撈費。

For any vessel to come in to fish for a day,

我們對進來捕魚的船隻 每日所收的費用，

we have raised the fee from -- it was $6,000 and $8,000,

已從每艘六千到八千元

now to $10,000, $12,000 per vessel day.

提高到現在的 一萬到一萬二千元。

And so there's been that significant increase.

漲幅很顯著。

But at the same time, what's important to note is,

但同時，要注意的重點是，

whereas in the past these fishing boats

以往這些捕魚船

might be fishing in a day and maybe catch 10 tons,

一天可能捕到十噸的魚，

now they're catching maybe 100 tons because they've become so efficient.

現在他們能捕到約一百噸， 因為船隻的效能變得很高。

And so we've got to respond likewise.

所以我們也要有所因應。

We've got to be very, very careful because the technology has so improved.

我們必須非常非常小心， 因為科技如此進步。

There was a time when the Brazilian fleet moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

過去巴西船隊曾經 想從大西洋移到太平洋。

They couldn't.

他們沒成功。

They started experimenting if they could, per se.

他們開始嘗試是否可行。

But now they've got ways of doing it, and they've become so efficient.

現在他們做到了， 而且變得非常高效能。

CA: Can you give us a sense of what it's like in those negotiations?

克：你能讓我們瞭解一下 這些協商是什麼嗎？

Because you're up against companies

因為你起來對抗的公司

that have hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, essentially.

基本上在這投注了上億美元。

How do you hold the line?

你如何堅持不讓步？

Is there any advice you can give

你有沒有什麼建言

to other leaders who are dealing with the same companies

給其他在跟同樣公司 打交道的領袖？

about how to get the most for your country,

怎樣為你的國家爭取到最大利益，

get the most for the fish?

怎樣為魚類爭取到最大利益？

What advice would you give?

你有什麼建議？

AT: Well, I think we focus too often on licensing

湯：我想我們太著重在 捕撈執照費上，

in order to get the rate of return,

為了報酬率的關係。

because what we are getting from license fees

因為捕撈執照費用所得

is about 10 percent of the landed value of the catch

大約是捕獲魚類 上岸價格的一成，

on the side of the wharf, not in the retail shops.

是在碼頭上岸的價格， 不是店裡販售的價格。

And we only get about 10 percent.

而我們只拿到約一成。

What we have been trying to do over the years

我們過去一直試著

is actually to increase our participation in the industry,

要更加實際參與該行業，

in the harvesting, in the processing,

參與捕撈、參與加工，

and eventually, hopefully, the marketing.

並希望最終能參與行銷。

They're not easy to penetrate,

這些都不容易打通，

but we are working towards that,

但是我們在想辦法，

and yes, the answer would be to enhance.

所以是的，答案是「增加」。

In order to increase our rate of return, we have to become more involved.

為了增加我們的報酬率， 我們要更積極參與。

And so we've started doing that,

所以我們開始這麼做，

and we have to restructure the industry.

而且我們必須重整該行業。

We've got to tell these people that the world has changed.

我們必須告訴這些人 世界已經改變。

Now we want to produce the fish ourselves.

現在我們想要自己 生產魚類加工品。

CA: And meanwhile, for your local fishermen,

克：同時，貴國當地的漁夫，

they are still able to fish,

他們還是可以捕魚，

but what is business like for them?

這個產業對他們又是如何？

Is it getting harder? Are the waters depleted?

更艱難了嗎？ 水域資源是否枯竭？

Or is that being run on a sustainable basis?

或是以永續基礎經營？

AT: For the artisanal fishery,

湯：對傳統捕撈漁業，

we do not participate in the commercial fishing activity

我們不參與商業的漁業活動，

except only to supply the domestic market.

我們只供應國內市場。

The tuna fishery is really entirely for the foreign market,

鮪魚工業其實 完全是針對國外市場，

mostly here in the US, Europe, Japan.

絕大部分是在美國這裡， 還有歐洲、日本。

So I am a fisherman, very much,

我自己可說是漁夫，

and I used to be able to catch yellowfin.

以前我還能捕到黃鰭鮪。

Now it's very, very rare to be able to catch yellowfin

現在很難捕到黃鰭鮪，

because they are being lifted out of the water by the hundreds of tons

因為現在都是以圍網漁船 從水中吊起幾百噸的魚。

by these purse seiners.

CA: So here's a couple of beautiful girls from your country.

克：這裡有幾位貴國的漂亮女孩。

I mean, as you think about their future,

我想問，當你想到她們的未來，

what message would you have for them

你會跟她們說什麼？

and what message would you have for the world?

你會跟這個世界說什麼？

AT: Well, I've been telling the world that we really have to do something

湯：我一直對世界說 我們真的該採取行動

about what is happening to the climate

來因應氣候變遷，

because for us, it's about the future of these children.

因為對我們而言， 這是為了這些孩子的未來。

I have 12 grandchildren, at least.

我有 12 個孫子，至少吧？

I think I have 12, my wife knows.

我想我有 12 個， 我太太才知道。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And I think I have eight children.

我想我有 8 個孩子。

It's about their future.

這是為了他們的未來。

Every day I see my grandchildren, about the same age as these young girls,

每天我都見到我的孫子， 跟這幾個小女孩差不多大，

and I do wonder,

我真的在想，

and I get angry sometimes, yes I do.

有時候我也很生氣，真的。

I wonder what is to become of them.

我在想他們會變成什麼樣。

And so it's about them

所以這是為了他們，

that we should be telling everybody,

我們必須告訴每一個人，

that it's not about their own national interest,

這不是為了他們自己國家的利益，

because climate change, regrettably, unfortunately,

因為氣候變遷， 很遺憾，很不幸

is viewed by many countries as a national problem. It's not.

被許多國家視為國家的問題。 並非如此。

And this is the argument we got into recently with our partners,

這是我們最近與 論壇夥伴爭論的問題，

the Australians and New Zealanders,

就是澳洲人及紐西蘭人，

because they said, "We can't cut any more."

因為他們說： 「我們不能再減了。」

This is what one of the leaders, the Australian leader, said,

其中一位領袖， 澳洲領導人這麼說，

that we've done our part, we are cutting back.

我們盡了自己的責任， 我們都在縮減。

I said, What about the rest? Why don't you keep it?

我說，那其它的呢？ 你為什麼不自己留著？

If you could keep the rest of your emissions

如果你把你其它的排放物

within your boundaries, within your borders,

留在自己的疆界內， 留在你的邊界內，

we'd have no question.

我們就沒有問題。

You can go ahead as much as you like.

你要怎麼排放都可以。

But unfortunately, you're sending it our way,

但不幸的是， 你把它排到我這裡，

and it's affecting the future of our children.

而這會影響我們孩子的未來。

And so surely I think that is the heart of the problem of climate change today.

我很確定這就是今天 氣候變遷的核心問題所在。

We will be meeting in Paris at the end of this year,

我們今年年底將在巴黎開會，

but until we can think of this as a global phenomenon,

但是除非我們能視其為全球現象，

because we create it, individually, as nations,

因為雖然我們 是以各國為單位製造出，

but it affects everybody else,

但這會影響其他每個人，

and yet, we refuse to do anything about it,

然而，我們拒絕做任何事情，

and we deal with it as a national problem,

我們也認為這是各國的問題，

which it is not -- it is a global issue,

並非如此，這是全球議題，

and it's got to be dealt with collectively.

必須全球集思廣益。

CA: People are incredibly bad at responding to graphs and numbers,

克：大家對圖表及數字的反應很差，

and we shut our minds to it.

我們的頭腦在這方面不太靈光。

Somehow, to people, we're slightly better at responding to that sometimes.

好像大家對人物比較有反應。

And it seems like it's very possible that your nation,

現在看來，你的國家似乎會

despite, actually because of the intense problems you face,

——儘管其實是因為 你們面對極為棘手的問題——

you may yet be the warning light to the world that shines most visibly,

你們會成為這世界最閃亮、

most powerfully.

最有力的警告之光。

I just want to thank you, I'm sure, on behalf of all of us,

我僅代表在座各位 在此對你致謝，

for your extraordinary leadership and for being here.

謝謝你非凡的領導， 也謝謝你撥冗參加。

Mr. President, thank you so much.

總統先生，非常謝謝你。

AT: Thank you.

湯：謝謝！

(Applause)

（掌聲）