Richard Ledgett: The NSA responds to Edward Snowden's TED Talk

翻译人员: Zhiting Chen 校对人员: Geoff Chen

Chris Anderson: We had Edward Snowden here

克里斯‧安德森：爱德华‧斯诺登

a couple days ago,

数天前在这里发表演说，

and this is response time.

现在是应答时间。

And several of you have written to me

我收到来自你们的反馈

with questions to ask our guest here from the NSA.

有些问题想要询问， 这位来自美国国家安全局的客人。

So Richard Ledgett is the 15th deputy director

理查德‧莱杰特是第15任

of the National Security Agency,

美国国安局副局长，

and he's a senior civilian officer there,

他是一名资深的文职官员，

acts as its chief operating officer,

是首席运营官，

guiding strategies, setting internal policies,

指导策略，制定内部政策，

and serving as the principal advisor to the director.

并担任国安局局长的首席顾问。

And all being well,

一切都很顺利，

welcome, Rick Ledgett, to TED.

欢迎理查德‧莱杰特 来到 TED 讲台。

(Applause)

（掌声）

Richard Ledgett: I'm really thankful for the opportunity to talk to folks here.

理查德‧莱杰特: 我非常感谢有这个机会， 能在这里和大家交流。

I look forward to the conversation,

我非常期待这次的交谈，

so thanks for arranging for that.

谢谢你的安排。

CA: Thank you, Rick.

克里斯‧安德森： 谢谢你，理查德。

We appreciate you joining us.

我们感到十分荣幸。

It's certainly quite a strong statement

这是相当有力的声明

that the NSA is willing to reach out

表现出美国国家安全局 是愿意接触公众的，

and show a more open face here.

同时表现出更加开放的态度。

You saw, I think,

我认为，

the talk and interview that Edward Snowden

几天前在这里，

gave here a couple days ago.

我们和爱德华‧斯诺登的对谈。

What did you make of it?

你有怎样的评论呢？

RL: So I think it was interesting.

理查德‧莱杰特：我认为这很有趣。

We didn't realize that he was going to show up there,

我们没想到他会在那里出现，

so kudos to you guys for arranging

感谢你们安排

a nice surprise like that.

这样有趣的惊喜。

I think that, like a lot of the things

我认为，像很多的事情爆发出来

that have come out since Mr. Snowden

自从斯诺登先生

started disclosing classified information,

开始披露保密信息资料，

there were some kernels of truth in there,

有一些是事实真相，

but a lot of extrapolations and half-truths in there,

但也带有大量的猜测 和半真半假的故事，

and I'm interested in helping to address those.

我很乐意就此提出见解。

I think this is a really important conversation

我认为这是一个非常重要的对话

that we're having in the United States

对美国

and internationally,

和在国际社会来说都是这样，

and I think it is important and of import,

我认为这是至关重要的，

and so given that, we need to have that be

因此我们需要的是

a fact-based conversation,

基于事实的对话，

and we want to help make that happen.

我们愿意为此做出努力。

CA: So the question that a lot of people have here is,

克里斯‧安德森: 在这儿，很多人感到好奇的问题是，

what do you make of Snowden's motivations

你认为斯诺登的动机是什么

for doing what he did,

他为什么要这样做，

and did he have an alternative way that he could have gone?

他有其他选择吗？

RL: He absolutely did

理查德‧莱杰特：他绝对有

have alternative ways that he could have gone,

除此之外的多种选择，

and I actually think that characterizing him

我认为

作为一名歇发者

as a whistleblower

actually hurts legitimate whistleblowing activities.

实际上伤害正当的揭秘活动。

So what if somebody who works in the NSA --

如果一个为美国国家安全局工作的人，

and there are over 35,000 people who do.

我们有超过 35000 名雇员。

They're all great citizens.

他们都是好公民。

They're just like your husbands, fathers, sisters,

他们只是普通人， 像是你的丈夫，父亲，姐妹们，

brothers, neighbors, nephews, friends and relatives,

兄弟，邻居，侄子，朋友，亲戚，

all of whom are interested in doing the right thing

他们都致力于

for their country

为国家

and for our allies internationally,

和我们在国际上的盟友效力，

and so there are a variety of venues to address

如果工作人员遇到一些困扰

if folks have a concern.

有很多方式可以解决。

First off, there's their supervisor,

首先，他们有上司，

and up through the supervisory chain

并且通过监管链向上

within their organization.

在他们的组织内部。

If folks aren't comfortable with that,

如果工作人员对这样的方式 感到不满意，

there are a number of inspectors general.

我们有许多监察人员 可以帮助处理问题。

In the case of Mr. Snowden, he had the option

就斯诺登先生的问题而言， 他可以寻求

of the NSA inspector general,

美国国家安全局监察长，

the Navy inspector general,

海军总监察长，

the Pacific Command inspector general,

太平洋司令部监察长，

the Department of Defense inspector general,

国防部门监察长，

and the intelligence community inspector general,

和情报系统监察长，

any of whom would have both kept his concerns in classified channels

他们中的任何一位都会 将这样的问题归类

and been happy to address them.

并且乐于帮助解决。

(CA and RL speaking at once)

（CA 和 RL 同时讲话）

He had the option to go to congressional committees,

他可以选择去国会，

and there are mechanisms to do that that are in place,

是有解决机制的，

and so he didn't do any of those things.

然而他没有寻求 上述任何一种方式。

CA: Now, you had said that

克里斯‧安德森：你刚刚说到，

Ed Snowden had other avenues

斯诺登有其他的途径

for raising his concerns.

来寻求解决他的问题。

The comeback on that is a couple of things:

主要有这样几件事情：

one, that he certainly believes that as a contractor,

首先，他肯定认为， 作为一名合同工，

the avenues that would have been available to him as an employee weren't available,

原本可以追溯的途径 却由于他是雇员而是不可用的，

two, there's a track record of other whistleblowers,

第二，其他揭发者的记录，

like [Thomas Andrews Drake] being treated

像是 [托马斯‧安德鲁斯‧德雷克]

pretty harshly, by some views,

很多人认为， 受到了不好的对待，

and thirdly, what he was taking on

第三，就他所看到的问题

was not one specific flaw that he'd discovered,

并不是一种具体的缺陷，

but programs that had been approved

而是，这样的程序已全被

by all three branches of government.

三个政府部门批准了。

I mean, in that circumstance,

我的意思是，在这种情况下，

couldn't you argue that what he did

你认为他做的事情

was reasonable?

是否合理？

RL: No, I don't agree with that.

理查德‧莱杰特： 不，我不同意。

I think that the —

我认为 — —

sorry, I'm getting feedback

对不起，我听到

through the microphone there —

那里的麦克风有些噪音 — —

the actions that he took were inappropriate

他的行动是不适当的，

because of the fact that he put people's lives at risk,

因为他给人们的生活带来风险，

basically, in the long run,

基本上，从长远来看，

and I know there's been a lot of talk

我知道在公共场合

in public by Mr. Snowden and some of the journalists

斯诺登先生和一些记者

that say that the things that have been disclosed

说已披露的事情

have not put national security and people at risk,

没有给国家安全和人民带来风险，

and that is categorically not true.

这绝对不是真实的。

They actually do.

事实上是有风险的。

I think there's also an amazing arrogance

我认为他令人惊异地骄傲自大，

to the idea that he knows better than

仿佛他比制宪者

the framers of the Constitution

知道更多

in how the government should be designed and work

有关政府该

for separation of powers

如何治理与分权。

and the fact that the executive and the legislative branch

事实上，行政部门和立法部门

have to work together and they have checks and balances on each other,

合作同时也彼此制衡，

and then the judicial branch,

还有司法部门

which oversees the entire process.

负责监督整个过程。

I think that's extremely arrogant on his part.

我认为他这样的想法是 非常傲慢自大的。

CA: Can you give a specific example

克里斯‧安德森： 请给出一个具体的例子好吗？

of how he put people's lives at risk?

有关他是如何将人们置于危险中的？

RL: Yeah, sure.

理查德‧莱杰特：好，没问题。

So the things that he's disclosed,

他已透露的情报，

the capabilities,

国安局的能力，

and the NSA is a capabilities-based organization,

和美国国家安全局是一个 基于能力的组织，

so when we have foreign intelligence targets,

因此，当我们有境外情报目标，

legitimate things of interest --

合法的感兴趣的事 — —

like, terrorists is the iconic example,

恐怖分子是个标志性的例子，

but it includes things like human traffickers,

但它也包括了像是贩卖人口，

drug traffickers,

贩卖毒品，

people who are trying to build advanced weaponry, nuclear weapons,

建造先进武器， 核武器的人，

and build delivery systems for those,

为其提供运输途径的人，

and nation-states who might be executing aggression against their immediate neighbors,

那些可能侵犯其近邻的国家，

which you may have some visibility

当发现这样的情况

into some of that that's going on right now,

和正在发生的这样的情况，

the capabilities are applied

我们要让能力得到

in very discrete and measured and controlled ways.

分散的，指挥的，受控制的运用。

So the unconstrained disclosure of those capabilities

因此，不受约束地披露这样的能力

means that as adversaries see them

就意味着，对手会得到讯息

and recognize, "Hey, I might be vulnerable to this,"

并意识到，"嘿，我有这个弱点，"

they move away from that,

他们就会避开，

and we have seen targets in terrorism,

我们看到恐怖主义的目标，

in the nation-state area,

在民族国家范围，

in smugglers of various types, and other folks

在各种走私方式，

who have, because of the disclosures,

有些人，得益于这样的能力披露，

moved away from our ability

得以逃脱我们的视线，

to have insight into what they're doing.

我们很难得到 有关他们行踪的情报。

The net effect of that is that our people

这样产生的效应是

who are overseas in dangerous places,

我们在海外危险地区的工作人员，

whether they're diplomats or military,

无论他们是外交或是军事人员，

and our allies who are in similar situations,

还有我们处于同样境地的盟友，

are at greater risk because we don't see

处于更大的风险中， 因为我们无法知晓

the threats that are coming their way.

即将到来的对他们的威胁。

CA: So that's a general response saying that

克里斯‧安德森： 总的来说，你的回应是

because of his revelations,

由于他的揭露行为，

access that you had to certain types of information

你对某些信息的接触管道

has been shut down, has been closed down.

被关闭了。

But the concern is that the nature of that access

但关注点是，这种接触的性质

was not necessarily legitimate in the first place.

首先就不需要是合法的。

I mean, describe to us this Bullrun program

我的意思是，请给我们描述一下 这个布尔溪程序，

where it's alleged that the NSA

它宣称美国国家安全局

specifically weakened security

为了得到你所说的 那种信息的接触管道

in order to get the type of access that you've spoken of.

是削弱了我们的安全的。

RL: So there are, when our

理查德‧莱杰特：是的，当我们

legitimate foreign intelligence targets of the type that I described before,

有我之前描述过的类型的 合法的外国情报目标，

use the global telecommunications system

使用全球电信系统

as their communications methodology,

作为他们的通信方式，

and they do, because it's a great system,

他们这样做是因为 这是一个很棒的系统，

it's the most complex system ever devised by man,

它是人类所能设计出来的 最复杂的系统，

and it is a wonder,

它是一个奇迹，

and lots of folks in the room there

很多工作人员在房间里

are responsible for the creation

负责创造

and enhancement of that,

和增强其应用

and it's just a wonderful thing.

它是很好的系统。

But it's also used by people who are

但是用他的人也包括那些

working against us and our allies.

对抗我们和我们盟友的人。

And so if I'm going to pursue them,

因此，如果我们要去追击他们，

I need to have the capability

就需要具备这样那样的能力

to go after them,

去找到他们，

and again, the controls are in

再重申一次，将控件的

how I apply that capability,

我该如何运用这种能力，

not that I have the capability itself.

不是我本身所拥有的能力。

Otherwise, if we could make it so that

不然，如果我们能这样做

all the bad guys used one corner of the Internet,

所有使用互联网的坏人

we could have a domain, badguy.com.

我们可以有个域名，badguy.com。

That would be awesome,

这会很棒，

and we could just concentrate all our efforts there.

我们可以把所有的心血专注于此。

That's not how it works.

可惜并不是这样。

They're trying to hide

他们试图

from the government's ability

躲避政府

to isolate and interdict their actions,

隔离并阻截他们的能力，

and so we have to swim in that same space.

所以我们必须在 同一空间内活动。

But I will tell you this.

我要说的是，

So NSA has two missions.

美国国家安全局有两个任务。

One is the Signals Intelligence mission

一是的信号情报任务

that we've unfortunately read so much about in the press.

很遗憾，我们从媒体上读到了很多。

The other one is the Information Assurance mission,

另一个是信息安全保障任务，

which is to protect the national security systems of the United States,

这是为了保护美国的国家安全系统，

and by that, that's things like

我们所保护的通信包括下列这些

the communications that the president uses,

美国总统的通信往来，

the communications that control our nuclear weapons,

管理核武器的通信，

the communications that our military uses around the world,

我们世界范围内的军事通信，

and the communications that we use with our allies,

我们与盟友共同使用的通信，

and that some of our allies themselves use.

盟友间的通信。

And so we make recommendations on standards to use,

所以我们提出 使用标准的建议，

and we use those same standards,

我们也使用相同的标准，

and so we are invested

我们投入

in making sure that those communications

以确保使这些通信

are secure for their intended purposes.

是安全的。

CA: But it sounds like what you're saying is that

克里斯‧安德森： 你的意思是，

when it comes to the Internet at large,

以互联网整体来看，

any strategy is fair game

任何战略都是公平的游戏

if it improves America's safety.

只要它提高了美国的安全水平。

And I think this is partly where there is such

我想这就是出现

a divide of opinion,

不同观点的部分，

that there's a lot of people in this room

很多人，包括这个房间里

and around the world

和世界各地的人们

who think very differently about the Internet.

对互联网有不同看法。

They think of it as a momentous

他们认为互联网是重大的

invention of humanity,

人类发明，

kind of on a par with the Gutenberg press, for example.

可以与古腾堡印刷机相提并论。

It's the bringer of knowledge to all.

它是人类知识的使者。

It's the connector of all.

它是一切的连接器。

And it's viewed in those sort of idealistic terms.

从那些有点理想主义的角度来看。

And from that lens,

从那个角度看来，

what the NSA has done is equivalent to

美国国家安全局做的事相当于

the authorities back in Germany

德国当局

inserting some device into every printing press

在每个印刷机里装上设备

that would reveal which books people bought

了解人们买了哪些书

and what they read.

和他们所阅读的内容。

Can you understand that from that viewpoint,

从这样的观点看来，

it feels outrageous?

国安局的行为有些粗暴？

RL: I do understand that, and I actually share the view of the utility of the Internet,

理查德‧莱杰特： 我明白并且同意互联网的功能，

and I would argue it's bigger than the Internet.

我想说它比互联网更大。

It is a global telecommunications system.

它是一个全球电信系统。

The Internet is a big chunk of that, but there is a lot more.

互联网是其中的一个大块， 但还有更多。

And I think that people have legitimate concerns

我认为人们有正当理由关注

about the balance between transparency and secrecy.

透明度和秘密的平衡。

That's sort of been couched as a balance

这种表达也指

between privacy and national security.

隐私和国家安全间的平衡。

I don't think that's the right framing.

这不认为这是正确的框架。

I think it really is transparency and secrecy.

我认为它真的是透明且保密的。

And so that's the national and international conversation that we're having,

我们正在讨论的 有关国家和国际的对话，

and we want to participate in that, and want

和我们想要参加其中，

people to participate in it in an informed way.

希望人们了解。

So there are things,

所以有些事情，

let me talk there a little bit more,

让我扩展一下，

there are things that we need to be transparent about:

有件事情是需要保持透明的：

our authorities, our processes,

我们的当局，我们的流程，

our oversight, who we are.

我们的监督，我们是谁。

We, NSA, have not done a good job of that,

我们，美国国家安全局， 在这方面做得不够好，

and I think that's part of the reason

我认为其中的原因

that this has been so revelational

已经被媒体揭示

and so sensational in the media.

并引起轰动。

Nobody knew who we were. We were the No Such Agency, the Never Say Anything.

没人知道我们是谁。 我们是“没听过的机构”，“沉默的机构”。

There's takeoffs of our logo

我们标志里的老鹰起飞了

of an eagle with headphones on around it.

这只鹰还带着耳机。

And so that's the public characterization.

这就是公共属性。

And so we need to be more transparent about those things.

因此我们需要将这些事情透明化。

What we don't need to be transparent about,

我们不需要保持透明的是

because it's bad for the U.S.,

那些对美国来说不利的事情，

it's bad for all those other countries that we work with

那些对与我们有合作的

and that we help provide information

接受我们信息的国家不利

that helps them secure themselves

这会帮助他们保护自己

and their people,

以及人民的安全，

it's bad to expose operations and capabilities

公开运作和能力是不利的行为

in a way that allows the people that we're all working against,

如果这样做将会使得那些 我们反对的人，

the generally recognized bad guys,

一般公认的坏人们，

to counter those.

能够有办法对付我们。

CA: But isn't it also bad to deal

克里斯▪安德森: 但是， 是不是也不好应对

a kind of body blow to the American companies

惨败的美国公司

that have essentially given the world

这些公司提供了世界上

most of the Internet services that matter?

大部分的互联网服务？

RL: It is. It's really the companies are

理查德▪莱杰特：是的。 确实这些公司都处于

in a tough position, as are we,

一个艰难的位置，如同我们，

because the companies,

因为是我们

we compel them to provide information,

强迫这些公司提供信息，

just like every other nation in the world does.

就像在世界的每个其他国家一样。

Every industrialized nation in the world

世界上的每个工业化国家

has a lawful intercept program

都有一套合法截取信息的程序

where they are requiring companies

他们要求公司

to provide them with information

为他们提供用以保障安全

that they need for their security,

的信息，

and the companies that are involved

这次事件所涉及的公司

have complied with those programs

都遵从这些程序

in the same way that they have to do

他们也要从事同样的活动

when they're operating in Russia or the U.K.

当营运在俄罗斯或英国

or China or India or France,

或中国或印度或法国，

any country that you choose to name.

你能说出的任何国家。

And so the fact that these revelations

这些揭示

have been broadly characterized as

被广泛地描绘成

"you can't trust company A because

"你不能信任A公司，因为

your privacy is suspect with them"

您的隐私是不受他们保护的"

is actually only accurate in the sense that

在某种意义上这是准确的

it's accurate with every other company in the world

世界上的任何其他公司

that deals with any of those countries in the world.

在处理与任何国家间关系的时候。

And so it's being picked up by people

这被人们用来

as a marketing advantage,

作为一个市场营销策略，

and it's being marketed that way by several countries,

几个国家都在推销着

including some of our allied countries,

包括一些与我们联盟的国家，

where they are saying,

他们说，

"Hey, you can't trust the U.S.,

“嘿，你不能信任美国，

but you can trust our telecom company,

但你可以信赖我们的通信公司，

because we're safe."

因为我们保障用户的安全。”

And they're actually using that to counter

实际上他们在用这个营销策略

the very large technological edge

来与美国的公司竞争

that U.S. companies have

美国公司在云技术和

in areas like the cloud and Internet-based technologies.

基于互联网的技术领域 有很大的技术优势。

CA: You're sitting there with the American flag,

克里斯▪安德森： 你身后有美国国旗，

and the American Constitution guarantees

美国宪法保障了公民的

freedom from unreasonable search and seizure.

不遭受不合理的搜查和扣押的自由。

How do you characterize

你是如何描述

the American citizen's right to privacy?

美国公民隐私权的？

Is there such a right?

有这样的一种权利吗？

RL: Yeah, of course there is.

理查德▪莱杰特： 是的，当然有。

And we devote an inordinate amount of time and pressure,

我们投入大量的时间和精力，

inordinate and appropriate, actually I should say,

我是指，过度却又适当的，

amount of time and effort in order to ensure

时间和努力，以确保

that we protect that privacy.

我们保护公民隐私。

and beyond that, the privacy of citizens

我们也保护，

around the world, it's not just Americans.

不只是美国人，而是 世界各地公民的隐私权。

Several things come into play here.

可以用几件事情来论述这点。

First, we're all in the same network.

第一，我们都使用同一个网络。

My communications,

我的通讯，

I'm a user of a particular Internet email service

我是某个电子邮件公司的用户

that is the number one email service of choice

这个是全球恐怖分子

by terrorists around the world, number one.

首选的公司。

So I'm there right beside them in email space

在互联网中，我的邮件账户就在

in the Internet.

他们的电子邮件账户隔壁。

And so we need to be able to pick that apart

因此我们需要把这些信息拆分，

and find the information that's relevant.

找出相关的信息。

In doing so, we're going to necessarily encounter

要这样做，一定会遇到

Americans and innocent foreign citizens

美国人和无辜的外国公民

who are just going about their business,

那些只是在忙各自事物的人。

and so we have procedures in place that shreds that out,

因此，我们有操作程序 将那些事情分别出来，

that says, when you find that,

也就是说，当你发现它，

not if you find it, when you find it, because you're certain to find it,

不是如果你发现它，而是当你找到它， 因为你无法避免会发现它

here's how you protect that.

这是你如何保护它的程序。

These are called minimization procedures.

这些被称为，最小化程序。

They're approved by the attorney general

他们是由联邦司法部批准

and constitutionally based.

并且是基于宪法规定的。

And so we protect those.

于是，我们保护这样的信息。

And then, for people, citizens of the world

对人们来说，世界上的公民

who are going about their lawful business

那些在处理其合法的业务

on a day-to-day basis,

日常工作的，

the president on his January 17 speech,

总统在他1月17日的演讲中提到，

laid out some additional protections

会有额外的保护措施

that we are providing to them.

能提供给他们。

So I think absolutely,

所以我绝对认为，

folks do have a right to privacy,

人们是有隐私权的，

and that we work very hard to make sure

我们非常努力工作以确保

that that right to privacy is protected.

这样的隐私权受到保护。

CA: What about foreigners using

克里斯‧安德森：那么当外国人使用

American companies' Internet services?

美国公司的互联网服务

Do they have any privacy rights?

他们有任何隐私权吗？

RL: They do. They do, in the sense of,

理查德‧莱杰特： 他们有。 他们有，从某种意义上说，

the only way that we are able to compel

只有这样，我们才能够强迫

one of those companies to provide us information

某一家公司为我们提供信息

is when it falls into one of three categories:

是当他属于下列 三个类别之一的情况下：

We can identify that this particular person,

我们可以确定，这个特定的人，

identified by a selector of some kind,

被挑选出来认为

is associated with counterterrorist

与反恐怖主义或者

or proliferation or other foreign intelligence target.

核扩散或其他境外情报目标。

CA: Much has been made of the fact that

克里斯‧安德森： 事实上，

a lot of the information that you've obtained

你们已经通过这些计划

through these programs is essentially metadata.

获得了很多信息， 本质上是元数据。

It's not necessarily the actual words

它不一定是实际的语词，

that someone has written in an email

像是某人电子邮件中写的内容

or given on a phone call.

或是一通电话里说的话。

It's who they wrote to and when, and so forth.

而是收件方是谁，什么时候写的，等等。

But it's been argued,

但有人一直认为，

and someone here in the audience has talked

这座观众中有人与

to a former NSA analyst who said

前美国国家安全局分析师交谈过 那位分析师说

metadata is actually much more invasive

元数据实际上

than the core data,

比核心数据更具有攻击性，

because in the core data

因为在核心数据

you present yourself as you want to be presented.

你表现出的是你希望展现的样子。

With metadata, who knows what the conclusions are

而元数据，谁知道会被得出

that are drawn?

怎样的结论？

Is there anything to that?

是这样吗？

RL: I don't really understand that argument.

理查德‧莱杰特： 我不是很明白这一论点。

I think that metadata's important for a couple of reasons.

我认为元数据的重要性 有下列几个原因。

Metadata is the information that lets you

元数据可以让你找到

find connections that people are trying to hide.

人们试图隐藏的关系。

So when a terrorist is corresponding

因此当一名恐怖分子在回应

with somebody else who's not known to us

某个我们不知道的人，

but is engaged in doing or supporting terrorist activity,

而这人从事或支持恐怖活动，

or someone who's violating international sanctions

这人或许违反了国际制裁

by providing nuclear weapons-related material

提供与核武器相关的材料

to a country like Iran or North Korea,

给伊朗或朝鲜这样的国家，

is trying to hide that activity because it's illicit activity.

正试图隐藏这种活动， 因为它是非法的。

What metadata lets you do is connect that.

元数据在这种时候就能帮你 连接这些资讯。

The alternative to that

供替代的做法

is one that's much less efficient

是一种效率较低的

and much more invasive of privacy,

并且更加侵犯隐私权的方式，

which is gigantic amounts of content collection.

那将是数量庞大的内容集合。

So metadata, in that sense,

因此元数据，在这个意义上，

actually is privacy-enhancing.

其实是加强隐私的。

And we don't, contrary to some of the stuff

我们不像报道中

that's been printed,

所说的那样，

we don't sit there and grind out

我们不会坐在那里

metadata profiles of average people.

查看普罗大众的元数据文件。

If you're not connected

如果你没有与那些

to one of those valid intelligence targets,

有根据的情报目标有联系，

you are not of interest to us.

我们对你并不感兴趣。

CA: So in terms of the threats

克里斯‧安德森：总地来说

that face America overall,

以美国所面临的威胁，

where would you place terrorism?

你认为恐怖主义的重要性在哪个位置?

RL: I think terrorism is still number one.

理查德‧莱杰特： 我认为 恐怖主义仍是第一位的。

I think that we have never been in a time

我们从来没有过在一段时间内

where there are more places

有越来越多的地方

where things are going badly

事情变得越来越糟糕，

and forming the petri dish in which terrorists

恐怖分子利用政府的治理漏洞

take advantage of the lack of governance.

来制造恐怖活动培养皿。

An old boss of mine, Tom Fargo, Admiral Fargo,

我的老领导，汤姆·法戈，法戈上将，

used to describe it as arcs of instability.

用不稳定的弧线描述它。

And so you have a lot of those arcs of instability

当今世界上，有很多

in the world right now,

这样不稳定的因素，

in places like Syria, where there's a civil war

在叙利亚，正在进行一次内战

going on and you have massive numbers,

你会得到大量的数字，

thousands and thousands of foreign fighters

成千上万的外国武装分子

who are coming into Syria

正在前往叙利亚

to learn how to be terrorists

去了解如何成为恐怖分子

and practice that activity,

实践恐怖活动，

and lots of those people are Westerners

那些人中的很多是西方人

who hold passports to European countries

持有欧洲国家的护照

or in some cases the United States,

或在某些情况下，美国护照，

and so they are basically learning how

他们去学习如何参与圣战，

to do jihad and have expressed intent

表达了走出去

to go out and do that later on

以后在自己的国家实践

in their home countries.

这样的意图。

You've got places like Iraq,

像伊拉克这样的地方

which is suffering from a high level of sectarian violence,

遭受着更高水平的宗派暴力事件，

again a breeding ground for terrorism.

于是再一次成为 恐怖主义的滋生地。

And you have the activity in the Horn of Africa

一些活动发生在非洲之角

and the Sahel area of Africa.

和非洲的萨赫勒地区。

Again, lots of weak governance

再次，许多政府治理的薄弱性

which forms a breeding ground for terrorist activity.

造就了恐怖活动的温床。

So I think it's very serious. I think it's number one.

因此我认为这是非常严重的。 我认为它是我国面临的首要威胁。

I think number two is cyber threat.

第二个是网络安全威胁。

I think cyber is a threat in three ways:

我认为网络是安全威胁 表现在三个方面：

One way, and probably the most common way

方式一，也是人们听说过

that people have heard about it,

最常见的方式，

is due to the theft of intellectual property,

是盗窃知识产权，

so basically, foreign countries going in,

基本上，外国进入网络，

stealing companies' secrets,

窃取公司机密，

and then providing that information

然后将该信息

to state-owned enterprises

提供给国有企业

or companies connected to the government

或是与政府有关系的公司

to help them leapfrog technology

以帮助他们跨越技术的鸿沟

or to gain business intelligence

或者是获得商业情报

that's then used to win contracts overseas.

用于赢得境外合同。

That is a hugely costly set of activities that's going on right now.

这是一套非常昂贵的活动。

Several nation-states are doing it.

几个民族国家正在进行这样的活动。

Second is the denial-of-service attacks.

第二是阻绝服务攻击。

You're probably aware that there have been

你可能注意到自2012年起

a spate of those directed against

已经出现一连串针对

the U.S. financial sector since 2012.

美国金融业的攻击。

Again, that's a nation-state who is executing those attacks,

再次，执行这些攻击的，是某一个国家，

and they're doing that

他们一直在这样做，

as a semi-anonymous way of reprisal.

作为一种半匿名式的报复。

And the last one is destructive attacks,

最后一个是破坏性的攻击，

and those are the ones that concern me the most.

这是我最担心的。

Those are on the rise.

这些行动有上升的趋势。

You have the attack against Saudi Aramco in 2012,

在2012年有针对 沙特阿美石油公司的攻击，

August of 2012.

那是在2012年的8月。

It took down about 35,000 of their computers

大约35,000台电脑遭到

with a Wiper-style virus.

雨刷风格的病毒攻击。

You had a follow-on a week later

一周后延续到

to a Qatari company.

一家卡塔尔公司。

You had March of 2013,

在2013年3月，

you had a South Korean attack

一场针对韩国的攻击，

that was attributed in the press to North Korea

新闻界将其归功于朝鲜，

that took out thousands of computers.

当时数千台计算机遭到攻击。

Those are on the rise,

这些行动出现的频率正在上升，

and we see people expressing interest

我们感到人们正在

in those capabilities

对这样的行为表示兴趣

and a desire to employ them.

并且有实施这一行为的愿望。

CA: Okay, so a couple of things here,

克里斯‧安德森：一些事情，

because this is really the core of this, almost.

因为这几乎是真正的核心部分。

I mean, first of all,

我的意思是，首先，

a lot of people who look at risk

很多人看到风险

and look at the numbers

再看到数字

don't understand this belief that terrorism

不明白仍将恐怖主义

is still the number one threat.

视为头号威胁的原因。

Apart from September 11,

除了911事件之外，

I think the numbers are that in the last 30 or 40 years

数据表明在过去的 30年或40年间

about 500 Americans have died from terrorism,

美国约有500人死于恐怖主义，

mostly from homegrown terrorists.

绝大多数死于本土恐怖分子手中。

The chance in the last few years

在过去的几年中

of being killed by terrorism

死于恐怖主义的几率

is far less than the chance of being killed by lightning.

是远小于被雷电击中的几率的。

I guess you would say that a single nuclear incident

我猜你会解释说某一起核事故

or bioterrorism act or something like that

或生化恐怖主义行为或类似的事情

would change those numbers.

就能改变这些数字。

Would that be the point of view?

是这样吗？

RL: Well, I'd say two things.

理查德‧莱杰特： 好吧， 我主要说两件事。

One is, the reason that there hasn't been

其中一个就是，

a major attack in the United States since 9/11,

美国自9/11以来 并未遭受重大的恐怖袭击

that is not an accident.

不是偶然的。

That's a lot of hard work that we have done,

因为我们很努力地工作，

that other folks

那些在情报系统

in the intelligence community have done,

任职的工作人员的工作成果，

that the military has done,

那些军队的工作成果，

and that our allies around the globe have done.

和我们全球各地的盟友的工作成果。

You've heard the numbers about

那些数字

the tip of the iceberg in terms

只是冰山一角，

of numbers of terrorist attacks that NSA programs

美国国家安全局项目

contributed to stopping was 54,

成功阻止了54场恐怖袭击，

25 of those in Europe,

25起在欧洲，

and of those 25,

那25起中的，

18 of them occurred in three countries,

18起出现在三个国家，

some of which are our allies,

其中包括我们的盟友，

and some of which are beating the heck out of us

顺便说一下，其中有些打败了

over the NSA programs, by the way.

美国国家安全局的程序。

So that's not an accident that those things happen.

因此，那些事情发生不是偶然的。

That's hard work. That's us finding intelligence

是辛苦工作的成果。 我们寻找

on terrorist activities

关于恐怖活动的情报

and interdicting them through one way or another,

通过这样那样的方式封锁他们，

through law enforcement,

通过诉诸法律，

through cooperative activities with other countries

通过与其他国家通力合作

and sometimes through military action.

有时候会采取军事行动。

The other thing I would say is that

我想说的另一件事是

your idea of nuclear or chem-bio-threat

有关核武器或生化武器的想法

is not at all far-fetched

绝不牵强，

and in fact there are a number of groups

确实有一些团体

who have for several years expressed interest

常年保有希望获得

and desire in obtaining those capabilities

这样能力的兴趣，

and work towards that.

并且已经在付诸行动。

CA: It's also been said that,

克里斯‧安德森：也有人说，

of those 54 alleged incidents,

那54起的指控，

that as few as zero of them

和斯诺登先生透露的

were actually anything to do

饱受争议的项目

with these controversial programs

之间的联系

that Mr. Snowden revealed,

趋拘于零，

that it was basically through other forms of intelligence,

那是通过其他形式的情报工作，

that you're looking for a needle in a haystack,

如同你在干草堆中寻找一根针，

and the effects of these programs,

这些项目的影响

these controversial programs,

这些有争议的项目，

is just to add hay to the stack,

只是往干草堆中添加干草，

not to really find the needle.

而非找到那根针。

The needle was found by other methods.

针是通过其他方式发现的。

Isn't there something to that?

请问你要如何回应？

RL: No, there's actually two programs

理查德‧莱杰特：不，实际上两个程序

that are typically implicated in that discussion.

涉及到这方面的讨论。

One is the section 215 program,

一是章节215项目，

the U.S. telephony metadata program,

美国电话系统元数据的程序，

and the other one is

另一个是

popularly called the PRISM program,

俗称的棱镜门程序，

and it's actually section 702 of the FISA Amendment Act.

它是外国情报监听法 修正案第702条。

But the 215 program

但是215程序

is only relevant to threats

只与直接针对美国的

that are directed against the United States,

行动有关，

and there have been a dozen threats

受此牵连的

where that was implicated.

有十几个威胁。

Now what you'll see people say publicly

现在你会看到人们公开说

is there is no "but for" case,

是有没有"，但却"的情况下，

and so there is no case where, but for that,

所以有没有什么地方，但为此，

the threat would have happened.

威胁将会发生。

But that actually indicates a lack of understanding

但是，实际上表明了一种无知，

of how terrorist investigations actually work.

人们不了解调查恐怖分子 的工作是如何完成的。

You think about on television,

你想到在电视上，

you watch a murder mystery.

看到一个神秘的谋杀。

What do you start with? You start with a body,

你是如何开始？开始于一个人，

and then they work their way from there to solve the crime.

他们解决犯罪。

We're actually starting well before that,

实际上我们在那之前就开始工作了，

hopefully before there are any bodies,

希望在任何机构前工作,

and we're trying to build the case for

我们试图建立档案

who the people are, what they're trying to do,

这些人是谁，他们想做些什么，

and that involves massive amounts of information.

这就涉及到大量的信息。

Think of it is as mosaic,

把它想作是马赛克，

and it's hard to say that any one piece of a mosaic

很难说，马赛克中任何一片

was necessary to building the mosaic,

对建筑马赛克至关重要，

but to build the complete picture,

但是为了建立完整的图片，

you need to have all the pieces of information.

你需要有所有的信息片段。

On the other, the non-U.S.-related threats out of those 54,

另一方面，那54起 并非与美国相关的威胁

the other 42 of them,

其中的42件，

the PRISM program was hugely relevant to that,

棱镜项目与其非常相关，

and in fact was material in contributing

事实上是在提供材料

to stopping those attacks.

以阻止这些攻击。

CA: Snowden said two days ago

克里斯‧安德森：斯诺登两天前说

that terrorism has always been

恐怖主义一直

what is called in the intelligence world

在情报系统称之为

"a cover for action,"

"行动的幌子"，

that it's something that,

这是重要的，

because it invokes such a powerful

因为它会调动人们

emotional response in people,

强大的情绪反应，

it allows the initiation of these programs

它允许这些程序启动，

to achieve powers that an organization like yours

让像你们这样的机构本拥有

couldn't otherwise have.

本不该有的权利。

Is there any internal debate about that?

关于这个话题你们有内部辩论吗？

RL: Yeah.

理查德‧莱杰特：是的。

I mean, we debate these things all the time,

我的意思是，我们时常 在辩论这些问题，

and there is discussion that goes on

在行政部门还有

in the executive branch

持续不断的讨论

and within NSA itself

在美国国家安全局内部

and the intelligence community about

和情报系统

what's right, what's proportionate,

关于什么是正确的，什么是相称的，

what's the correct thing to do.

什么是正确的事情。

And it's important to note that the programs

重点提一下这些

that we're talking about

我们正在谈论的项目

were all authorized by two different presidents,

是被两个不同的总统授权的，

two different political parties,

两个不同的政党，

by Congress twice,

两次经手国会，

and by federal judges 16 different times,

由联邦法官16次不同时间，

and so this is not NSA running off

所以这不是美国国家安全局

and doing its own thing.

自编自导自演的。

This is a legitimate activity

这是一项合法的活动，

of the United States foreign government

让美国国外政府，

that was agreed to by all the branches

美国政府的

of the United States government,

所有分支，

and President Madison would have been proud.

和麦迪逊总统感到自豪。

CA: And yet, when congressmen discovered

克里斯‧安德森：然而， 当国会议员们发现

what was actually being done with that authorization,

在授权情况下实际上的行为，

many of them were completely shocked.

他们中的很多都完全惊呆了。

Or do you think that is not a legitimate reaction,

或者，你认为那不是一个合理的反应，

that it's only because it's now come out publicly,

它是因为公开在民众眼前，

that they really knew exactly what you were doing

他们才真的知道你们在做什么

with the powers they had granted you?

在他们授予的权力之下？

RL: Congress is a big body.

理查德‧莱杰特：国会是一个巨大的组织，

There's 535 of them,

国会议员有535名，

and they change out frequently,

人员经常变动，

in the case of the House, every two years,

众议院每隔两年变动，

and I think that the NSA provided

我认为美国国家安全局提供了

all the relevant information to our oversight committees,

监督委员会所需的所有相关信息，

and then the dissemination of that information

然后这些信息的传播

by the oversight committees throughout Congress

通过整个国会监督委员会

is something that they manage.

是他们管理的东西。

I think I would say that Congress members

我会说，国会议员

had the opportunity to make themselves aware,

有机会让自己意识到这些，

and in fact a significant number of them,

事实上他们中的大多数，

the ones who are assigned oversight responsibility,

那些被分配有监督责任的人

did have the ability to do that.

没有能力做到这一点。

And you've actually had the chairs of those committees say that in public.

委员会主席在公共场合说过多次。

CA: Now, you mentioned the threat of cyberattacks,

克里斯‧安德森：你所提到 网络攻击的威胁

and I don't think anyone in this room would disagree

我认为在场所有人都同意

that that is a huge concern,

这是一个巨大的关注点，

but do you accept that there's a tradeoff

但你是否认为有个权衡点

between offensive and defensive strategies,

在进攻性和防御性战略之间，

and that it's possible that the very measures taken

和它是可能，而采取的非常措施

to, "weaken encryption,"

以"削弱加密"

and allow yourself to find the bad guys,

允许你自己找到的坏家伙，

might also open the door to forms of cyberattack?

可能还敞开一扇门招致网络攻击吗？

RL: So I think two things.

理查德‧莱杰特：我想说两件事情。

One is, you said weaken encryption. I didn't.

一是你说的削弱加密。我没有。

And the other one is that

那是另一个

the NSA has both of those missions,

美国国家安全局 同时具有这些特派团，

and we are heavily biased towards defense,

我们都严重偏向于防御，

and, actually, the vulnerabilities that we find

实际上，我们发现的漏洞

in the overwhelming majority of cases,

在绝大多数情况下，

we disclose to the people who are responsible

我们向那些负责任的人披露

for manufacturing or developing those products.

那些人负责制造或开发这些产品。

We have a great track record of that,

我们有记录，

and we're actually working on a proposal right now

我们实际上正在建议

to be transparent and to publish transparency reports

要透明，透明度报告发布

in the same way that the Internet companies

与互联网公司同样

are being allowed to publish transparency reports for them.

都允许发布透明度报告。

We want to be more transparent about that.

我们想要变得更加透明。

So again, we eat our own dog food.

同样的我们吃我们自己的狗食。

We use the standards, we use the products

我们使用同样的标准， 我们使用同样的产品

that we recommend,

我们建议，

and so it's in our interest

所以这是我们的利益所在

to keep our communications protected

以保护我们的通信

in the same way that other people's need to be.

以其他人所需要的同样的方式。

CA: Edward Snowden,

克里斯‧安德森：爱德华‧斯诺登

when, after his talk, was wandering the halls here

在他的谈话之后通过机器人

in the bot,

在这里徘徊，

and I heard him say to a couple of people,

我听到几个人

they asked him about what he thought

问他对于美国国安局

of the NSA overall,

总的看法，

and he was very complimentary about the people

他对那些与你共事的人

who work with you,

称赞有加，

said that it's a really

他说这些是

impassioned group of employees

充满干劲的员工，

who are seeking to do the right thing,

这些员工在做正确的事，

and that the problems have come from

而问题只是来自于

just some badly conceived policies.

错误构想的政策。

He came over certainly very reasonably and calmly.

他的表现非常合理并且冷静。

He didn't come over like a crazy man.

他不是个疯子。

Would you accept that at least,

你会接受这样的看法吗，

even if you disagree with how he did it,

即使你不同意他的作法，

that he has opened a debate that matters?

但他开启了一场重要辩论？

RL: So I think that the discussion

理查德‧莱杰特：我认为，

is an important one to have.

讨论是重要的。

I do not like the way that he did it.

我不喜欢他那样的处理方式。

I think there were a number of other ways

我认为有多种其他的方法

that he could have done that

可供选择，

that would have not endangered our people

那些方法不会危及我们的人民

and the people of other nations

和其他国家的人民，

through losing visibility

失去看到我们对手

into what our adversaries are doing.

在做什么的能力。

But I do think it's an important conversation.

但我认为它是一个重要的谈话。

CA: It's been reported that there's

克里斯‧安德森：报道称

almost a difference of opinion

你和你的同事们

with you and your colleagues

有着几乎不同的意见

over any scenario in which

在何种情况下，

he might be offered an amnesty deal.

他可能会提出大赦协议。

I think your boss, General Keith Alexander,

我想，你的老板， 基思‧亚历山大将军，

has said that that would be a terrible example

说过这这将是一个对他人的

for others;

糟糕示范；

you can't negotiate with someone

你不能与那些已经

who's broken the law in that way.

已经触犯了法律的人商谈。

But you've been quoted as saying that,

但你曾说过，

if Snowden could prove that he was surrendering

如果斯诺登交出

all undisclosed documents,

所有未披露的文件，

that a deal maybe should be considered.

这样的交易也许应该可以考虑。

Do you still think that?

你仍然这样认为吗？

RL: Yeah, so actually,

理查德‧莱杰特：是的，实际上，

this is my favorite thing about that "60 Minutes" interview

这是我最喜欢的《60分钟》 采访，

was all the misquotes that came from that.

一切都是值得。

What I actually said, in response to a question about,

我在回答如下问题，

would you entertain any discussions

你愿意包容

of mitigating action against Snowden,

有关减轻对斯诺登采取行动的讨论吗？

I said, yeah, it's worth a conversation.

我说是的， 它是值得的一次谈话。

This is something that the attorney general

这些事情美国的司法部长

of the United States and the president also

和总统都

actually have both talked about this,

谈到过这样的问题，

and I defer to the attorney general,

我遵从司法部长，

because this is his lane.

因为这是他的领域。

But there is a strong tradition

但是美国法律界

in American jurisprudence

较强的传统是

of having discussions with people

与那些被控有罪

who have been charged with crimes in order to,

但可能对政府有益的人

if it benefits the government,

进行交谈协商，

to get something out of that,

以得到一些东西，

that there's always room for that kind of discussion.

总会有这种讨论的余地。

So I'm not presupposing any outcome,

所以我不会假设任何结果，

but there is always room for discussion.

但总是会有讨论的空间。

CA: To a lay person it seems like

克里斯‧安德森：在非专业人士看来

he has certain things to offer the U.S.,

他有一些东西可以提供给美国，

the government, you, others,

政府，你，其他人，

in terms of putting things right

以纠正错误

and helping figure out a smarter policy,

并帮助找出一个更优异的政策，

a smarter way forward for the future.

和走向未来的好方法。

Do you see, has that kind of possibility

你认为这种可能性

been entertained at all?

会被包容吗？

RL: So that's out of my lane.

理查德‧莱杰特：这已超出我领域。

That's not an NSA thing.

这不是一个美国国家安全局的事情。

That would be a Department of Justice

这将是司法部的

sort of discussion.

研究讨论。

I'll defer to them.

我会听从他们。

CA: Rick, when Ed Snowden ended his talk,

克里斯‧安德森：理查德， 当斯诺登结束讲话的时候，

I offered him the chance to share an idea worth spreading.

我请他分享 值得传播的想法。

What would be your idea worth spreading

你值得传播的想法

for this group?

是什么呢？

RL: So I think, learn the facts.

理查德‧莱杰特：我认为是，了解事实。

This is a really important conversation,

这是一个非常重要的谈话，

and it impacts, it's not just NSA,

它的影响涉及极广， 不只是有关于美国国家安全局，

it's not just the government,

不是只有关于政府，

it's you, it's the Internet companies.

它有关于你，它有关于互联网公司。

The issue of privacy and personal data

隐私和个人数据的问题

is much bigger than just the government,

比政府多得多，

and so learn the facts.

所以了解事实。

Don't rely on headlines,

不要依赖头条新闻，

don't rely on sound bites,

不要依赖于大众评论，

don't rely on one-sided conversations.

不要依赖于片面的看法。

So that's the idea, I think, worth spreading.

这就是我认为，值得推广的想法。

We have a sign, a badge tab,

我们有一个标志， 一个徽章，

we wear badges at work with lanyards,

我们在工作时 用挂袋佩戴徽章，

and if I could make a plug,

如果我能制作一个插头，

my badge lanyard at work says, "Dallas Cowboys."

证件挂绳上写着， "达拉斯牛仔队"。

Go Dallas.

去达拉斯。

I've just alienated half the audience, I know.

我已经疏远了一半的观众，我知道。

So the lanyard that our people

所以我们员工

who work in the organization

那些在工作中

that does our crypto-analytic work

处理密码分析的员工

have a tab that says, "Look at the data."

有一个挂绳标签， 写着“看看这些数据”。

So that's the idea worth spreading.

这就是值得传播的思想。

Look at the data.

看看数据。

CA: Rick, it took a certain amount of courage,

克里斯‧安德森：理查德， 这需要很大的勇气，

I think, actually, to come and speak openly

我认为，来到这里

to this group.

公开演讲。

It's not something the NSA has done a lot of in the past,

这不只关于美国国家安全局 过去的工作成就，

and plus the technology has been challenging.

这也涉及了对技术水平的挑战。

We truly appreciate you doing that

我们真的很感激你来到这里

and sharing in this very important conversation.

与我们大家共享非常重要的演说。

Thank you so much.

非常感谢。

RL: Thanks, Chris.

理查德‧莱杰特：谢谢你，克里斯。

(Applause)

（掌声）