Richard Ledgett: The NSA responds to Edward Snowden's TED Talk

Prevoditelj: Marija Saric Recezent: Ivan Stamenković

Chris Anderson: We had Edward Snowden here

Chris Anderson: Edward Snowden je bio ovdje

a couple days ago,

prije nekoliko dana,

and this is response time.

a ovo je vrijeme za odgovor.

And several of you have written to me

Nekoliko osoba mi je pisalo

with questions to ask our guest here from the NSA.

s pitanjima za našeg gosta iz NSA.

So Richard Ledgett is the 15th deputy director

Richard Ledgett je 15. zamjenik direktora

of the National Security Agency,

Nacionalne sigurnosne agencije,

and he's a senior civilian officer there,

viši je civilni službenik,

acts as its chief operating officer,

djeluje u svojstvu operativnog direktora,

guiding strategies, setting internal policies,

usmjerava strategije, postavlja interne politike

and serving as the principal advisor to the director.

te djeluje kao glavni savjetnik direktora.

And all being well,

Sve u svemu,

welcome, Rick Ledgett, to TED.

poželite dobrodošlicu Ricku Ledgettu na TED.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

Richard Ledgett: I'm really thankful for the opportunity to talk to folks here.

Richard Ledgett: Zbilja sam zahvalan za priliku razgovarati s vama.

I look forward to the conversation,

Veseli me ovaj razgovor

so thanks for arranging for that.

i zato hvala što ste ovo organizirali.

CA: Thank you, Rick.

CA: Hvala, Rick.

We appreciate you joining us.

Drago nam je što ste nam se pridružili.

It's certainly quite a strong statement

Ovo je zasigurno snažna izjava

that the NSA is willing to reach out

što je NSA voljna surađivati

and show a more open face here.

i ovdje pokazati otvorenije lice.

You saw, I think,

Vidjeli ste, barem mislim,

the talk and interview that Edward Snowden

govor i intervju koji je Edward Snowden

ovdje držao prije par dana.

gave here a couple days ago.

What did you make of it?

Što mislite o tome?

RL: So I think it was interesting.

RL: Mislim da je bilo zanimljivo.

We didn't realize that he was going to show up there,

Nismo znali da će se on pojaviti ovdje

so kudos to you guys for arranging

stoga vam čestitamo na organizaciji

a nice surprise like that.

tako lijepog iznenađenja.

I think that, like a lot of the things

Mislim da, kao kod mnogo stvari

that have come out since Mr. Snowden

koje su izašle otkad je g. Snowden

started disclosing classified information,

počeo otkrivati tajne informacije,

there were some kernels of truth in there,

bilo tu zrnaca istine,

but a lot of extrapolations and half-truths in there,

ali mnogo je ekstrapolacija i poluistina

and I'm interested in helping to address those.

i želim se osvrnuti na njih.

I think this is a really important conversation

Mislim da je ovo bitan dijalog

that we're having in the United States

koji vodimo u Sjedinjenim Državama

and internationally,

i međunarodno

and I think it is important and of import,

i mislim da je važan i bitan

and so given that, we need to have that be

te s obzirom na to, to mora biti

a fact-based conversation,

dijalog koji se temelji na činjenicama,

and we want to help make that happen.

a mi želimo pomoći da se to ostvari.

CA: So the question that a lot of people have here is,

CA: Pitanje koje mnogo ljudi ovdje ima jest:

what do you make of Snowden's motivations

"Što mislite o Snowdenovoj motivaciji

for doing what he did,

za činjenje toga što je učinio

and did he have an alternative way that he could have gone?

i je li imao alternativni način na koji je mogao djelovati?"

RL: He absolutely did

RL: Apsolutno je imao

have alternative ways that he could have gone,

alternativnih načina na koje je mogao djelovati

and I actually think that characterizing him

i mislim da ga karakterizacijom

as a whistleblower

kao zviždača

actually hurts legitimate whistleblowing activities.

zapravo oštećujemo legitimne aktivnosti zviždača.

So what if somebody who works in the NSA --

Što ako netko tko radi za NSA --

and there are over 35,000 people who do.

a tu radi preko 35 000 ljudi.

They're all great citizens.

To su sve odlični građani.

They're just like your husbands, fathers, sisters,

Oni su poput vaših supruga, očeva, sestara,

brothers, neighbors, nephews, friends and relatives,

braće, susjeda, nećaka, prijatelja i rodbine,

all of whom are interested in doing the right thing

i svi žele učiniti ispravnu stvar

for their country

za svoju državu

and for our allies internationally,

i za naše međunarodne saveznike,

and so there are a variety of venues to address

stoga je mnogo mjesta na koja se može obratiti

if folks have a concern.

ako netko ima brige.

First off, there's their supervisor,

Prvo, tu je njihov nadglednik

and up through the supervisory chain

te svi uz nadgledni lanac

within their organization.

unutar njihove organizacije.

If folks aren't comfortable with that,

Ako nekome ovo nije ugodno,

there are a number of inspectors general.

velik je broj glavnih inspektora.

In the case of Mr. Snowden, he had the option

U slučaju g. Snowdena, imao je opciju između

of the NSA inspector general,

NSA-inog glavnog inspektora,

the Navy inspector general,

glavnog inspektora Ratne mornarice,

the Pacific Command inspector general,

glavnog inspektora Pacifičke komande,

the Department of Defense inspector general,

glavnog inspektora Ministarstva obrane

and the intelligence community inspector general,

te glavnog inspektora obavještajne zajednice,

any of whom would have both kept his concerns in classified channels

a bilo koji od njih zadržao bi primjedbe u tajnim kanalima

and been happy to address them.

i bio bi sretan istražiti ih.

(CA and RL speaking at once)

(CA i RL pričaju istodobno)

He had the option to go to congressional committees,

Imao je opciju obratiti se kongresnim odborima,

and there are mechanisms to do that that are in place,

a postoje i uspostavljeni mehanizmi za ovo

and so he didn't do any of those things.

i nije napravio ništa od toga.

CA: Now, you had said that

CA: Rekli ste da je

Ed Snowden had other avenues

Ed Snowden imao druga mjesta

for raising his concerns.

na koja se mogao obratiti.

The comeback on that is a couple of things:

Odgovor na to su dvije stvari:

one, that he certainly believes that as a contractor,

prvo, što on doista vjeruje da on kao ugovornik

the avenues that would have been available to him as an employee weren't available,

nije imao iste mogućnosti obraćanja poput stalnih zaposlenika,

two, there's a track record of other whistleblowers,

a drugo, poznato je da se druge zviždače,

like [Thomas Andrews Drake] being treated

poput [Thomasa Andrewsa Drakea] vrlo grubo

pretty harshly, by some views,

tretiralo u nekim pogledima

and thirdly, what he was taking on

i treće, ono čime se on bavio

was not one specific flaw that he'd discovered,

nije bila jedna specifična greška koju je otkrio,

but programs that had been approved

nego programi koje su odobrile

by all three branches of government.

sve tri grane vlasti.

I mean, in that circumstance,

Mislim, u ovim okolnostima

couldn't you argue that what he did

može li se reći da je ono što je on učinio

was reasonable?

bilo razumno?

RL: No, I don't agree with that.

RL: Ne, ne slažem se s tim.

I think that the —

Mislim da —

sorry, I'm getting feedback

oprostite, dobivam povratnu vezu

through the microphone there —

kroz mikrofon —

the actions that he took were inappropriate

da su djela koja je učinio neprikladna

because of the fact that he put people's lives at risk,

zbog činjenice što je stavio ljudske živote u rizik,

basically, in the long run,

zapravo, dugotrajno,

and I know there's been a lot of talk

i znam da su o tome puno pričali

in public by Mr. Snowden and some of the journalists

u javnosti i g. Snowden i neki novinari

that say that the things that have been disclosed

koji su rekli da stvari koje su otkrivene

have not put national security and people at risk,

nisu stavile nacionalnu sigurnost i ljude u rizik,

and that is categorically not true.

a to, kategorički, nije istina.

They actually do.

Zapravo jesu.

I think there's also an amazing arrogance

Također mislim da je nevjerojatno arogantna

to the idea that he knows better than

ideja da on zna bolje od

the framers of the Constitution

stvaratelja Ustava

in how the government should be designed and work

kako bi vlast trebala biti organizirana i djelovati

for separation of powers

kroz raspodjelu moći

and the fact that the executive and the legislative branch

te o činjenici da izvršna i zakonodavna grana

have to work together and they have checks and balances on each other,

moraju raditi zajedno i držati jedna drugu pod kontrolom

and then the judicial branch,

i da sudska grana

which oversees the entire process.

nadgleda cijeli proces.

I think that's extremely arrogant on his part.

Mislim da je to jako arogantno s njegove strane.

CA: Can you give a specific example

CA: Možete li dati konkretan primjer

of how he put people's lives at risk?

kako je stavio ljudske živote u rizik?

RL: Yeah, sure.

Da, naravno.

So the things that he's disclosed,

Stvari koje je otkrio,

the capabilities,

mogućnosti,

and the NSA is a capabilities-based organization,

a NSA je organizacija utemeljena na mogućnostima,

so when we have foreign intelligence targets,

kada imamo strane obavještajne mete,

legitimate things of interest --

legitimne objekte interesa --

like, terrorists is the iconic example,

poput terorista u tipičnom primjeru,

but it includes things like human traffickers,

ali ovo uključuje i trgovanje ljudima,

drug traffickers,

trgovinu drogom,

people who are trying to build advanced weaponry, nuclear weapons,

ljude koji pokušavaju izraditi napredna oružja, nuklearna oružja

and build delivery systems for those,

i grade sustave za njihovu isporuku

and nation-states who might be executing aggression against their immediate neighbors,

te države koje su agresor prema svojim neposrednim susjedima,

which you may have some visibility

za koje imate nekakav uvid

into some of that that's going on right now,

u to što se sada događa,

the capabilities are applied

mogućnosti se primjenjuju

in very discrete and measured and controlled ways.

na vrlo diskretan, odmjeren i kontroliran način.

So the unconstrained disclosure of those capabilities

Nekontrolirano otkrivanje ovih mogućnosti

means that as adversaries see them

znači da ih protivnici mogu vidjeti

and recognize, "Hey, I might be vulnerable to this,"

i prepoznati: "Hej, možda sam ranjiv na ovo",

they move away from that,

te se odmaknu od toga,

and we have seen targets in terrorism,

a vidjeli smo mete u terorizmu

in the nation-state area,

u području država,

in smugglers of various types, and other folks

kod raznoraznih krijumčara i drugih ljudi

who have, because of the disclosures,

koji su se zbog ovih otkrića

moved away from our ability

odmaknuli od naše sposobnosti

to have insight into what they're doing.

uvida u to što rade.

The net effect of that is that our people

Efekt je takav da su naši ljudi

who are overseas in dangerous places,

koji su u inozemstvu na opasnim mjestima,

whether they're diplomats or military,

bez obzira jesu li diplomati ili vojska

and our allies who are in similar situations,

i naši saveznici koji su u sličnim situacijama,

are at greater risk because we don't see

u većem riziku jer ne vidimo

the threats that are coming their way.

prijetnje koje idu prema njima.

CA: So that's a general response saying that

CA: To je općeniti odgovor,

because of his revelations,

da je zbog njegovih otkrića

access that you had to certain types of information

pristup koji ste imali određenim informacijama

has been shut down, has been closed down.

ugašen, zatvoren je.

But the concern is that the nature of that access

No, briga postoji jer priroda tog pristupa

was not necessarily legitimate in the first place.

nije nužno legitimna od samog početka.

I mean, describe to us this Bullrun program

Mislim, opišite nam taj Bullrun program

where it's alleged that the NSA

gdje je navodno NSA

specifically weakened security

izričito oslabljivala sigurnost

in order to get the type of access that you've spoken of.

kako bi dobila pristup o kojem pričate.

RL: So there are, when our

RL: Kada naše

legitimate foreign intelligence targets of the type that I described before,

legitimne strane obavještajne mete, koje sam već opisao,

use the global telecommunications system

koriste globalne telekomunikacijske sustave

as their communications methodology,

kao svoju telekomunikacijsku metodologiju,

and they do, because it's a great system,

a čine to jer je to odličan sustav,

it's the most complex system ever devised by man,

to je najkompleksniji sustav koji je čovjek izmislio,

and it is a wonder,

i čudo je,

and lots of folks in the room there

i mnogo je ljudi u ovoj prostoriji

are responsible for the creation

odgovorno za njegovo stvaranje

and enhancement of that,

i poboljšanje

and it's just a wonderful thing.

i to je krasna stvar.

But it's also used by people who are

No koriste ga i ljudi koji

working against us and our allies.

djeluju protiv nas i naših saveznika.

And so if I'm going to pursue them,

Ako ih želim slijediti,

I need to have the capability

moram imati mogućnost

to go after them,

pratiti ih

and again, the controls are in

i ponovno, postoje kontrole

how I apply that capability,

načina primjene ove mogućnosti

not that I have the capability itself.

i nije da ja imam ovu mogućnost.

Otherwise, if we could make it so that

S druge strane, kada bismo mogli učiniti to

all the bad guys used one corner of the Internet,

da svi zločinci koriste jedan dio interneta,

we could have a domain, badguy.com.

mogli bismo imati domenu zlocinac.com.

That would be awesome,

To bi bilo odlično

and we could just concentrate all our efforts there.

i sav trud bismo mogli koncentrirati ondje.

That's not how it works.

To ne funkcionira tako.

They're trying to hide

Pokušavaju se skriti

from the government's ability

od vladine sposobnosti

to isolate and interdict their actions,

izolacije i zabrane ovih djelovanja,

and so we have to swim in that same space.

stoga i sami plivamo u istom prostoru.

But I will tell you this.

No, reći ću vam ovo.

So NSA has two missions.

NSA ima dvije misije.

One is the Signals Intelligence mission

Jedna je Signals Intelligence misija

that we've unfortunately read so much about in the press.

o kojoj smo nažalost toliko čitali u vijestima.

The other one is the Information Assurance mission,

Druga je Information Assurance misija,

which is to protect the national security systems of the United States,

odnosno zaštita sustava nacionalne sigurnosti Sjedinjenih Država,

and by that, that's things like

a to su stvari poput

the communications that the president uses,

komunikacija koje koristi predsjednik,

the communications that control our nuclear weapons,

komunikacija koje kontroliraju naše nuklearno naoružanje,

the communications that our military uses around the world,

komunikacija koje koristi naša vojska diljem svijeta

and the communications that we use with our allies,

te komunikacija koje koristimo s našim saveznicima

and that some of our allies themselves use.

i neke koje i sami saveznici koriste.

And so we make recommendations on standards to use,

Mi dajemo preporuke koje standarde koristiti,

and we use those same standards,

ali i sami koristimo iste standarde,

and so we are invested

stoga mnogo ulažemo

in making sure that those communications

u provjeru jesu li ove komunikacije

are secure for their intended purposes.

sigurne za svoje svrhe.

CA: But it sounds like what you're saying is that

CA: Ali zvuči kao da govorite da

when it comes to the Internet at large,

što se tiče interneta u cjelini,

any strategy is fair game

bilo koja strategija je u igri

if it improves America's safety.

ako unaprijedi sigurnost Amerike.

And I think this is partly where there is such

I mislim da upravo zbog ovoga dolazi do

a divide of opinion,

takve raspodjele mišljenja,

that there's a lot of people in this room

da je u ovoj prostoriji puno ljudi

and around the world

i diljem svijeta

who think very differently about the Internet.

koji na drugačiji način razmišljaju o internetu.

They think of it as a momentous

O njemu misle kao o monumentalnom

invention of humanity,

izumu čovječanstva,

kind of on a par with the Gutenberg press, for example.

otprilike u razini Gutenbergova tiska, na primjer.

It's the bringer of knowledge to all.

On svima donosi znanje.

It's the connector of all.

On sve povezuje.

And it's viewed in those sort of idealistic terms.

I gleda se u takvim idealističkim terminima.

And from that lens,

I iz ove perspektive,

what the NSA has done is equivalent to

ono što je NSA učinila jednako je

the authorities back in Germany

vlastima u prošloj Njemačkoj,

inserting some device into every printing press

umetanju nekakvog uređaja u svaku printanu štampu,

that would reveal which books people bought

koji otkriva koje knjige ljudi kupuju

and what they read.

i što čitaju.

Can you understand that from that viewpoint,

Možete li shvatiti da iz ove perspektive

it feels outrageous?

čini se nečuveno?

RL: I do understand that, and I actually share the view of the utility of the Internet,

RL: Shvaćam to i zapravo dijelim pogled o koristi interneta

and I would argue it's bigger than the Internet.

i istaknuo bih da je ovo veće od interneta.

It is a global telecommunications system.

To je globalni telekomunikacijski sustav.

The Internet is a big chunk of that, but there is a lot more.

Internet je veliki dio toga, ali tu je i puno više.

And I think that people have legitimate concerns

Mislim da ljudi imaju legitimne brige

about the balance between transparency and secrecy.

o ravnoteži između transparentnosti i povjerljivosti.

That's sort of been couched as a balance

Ovo se nekako umotalo kao ravnoteža

between privacy and national security.

između privatnosti i nacionalne sigurnosti.

Mislim da to nije ispravan okvir.

I don't think that's the right framing.

I think it really is transparency and secrecy.

Mislim da se doista radi o transparentnosti i povjerljivosti.

And so that's the national and international conversation that we're having,

I to je nacionalni i međunarodni dijalog koji vodimo

and we want to participate in that, and want

i želimo sudjelovati u njemu te želimo da

people to participate in it in an informed way.

ljudi sudjeluju na informirani način.

So there are things,

Postoje stvari,

let me talk there a little bit more,

dopustite mi da kažem još nešto,

there are things that we need to be transparent about:

postoje stvari o kojima moramo biti transparentni:

our authorities, our processes,

naše ovlasti, naši procesi,

our oversight, who we are.

naš nadzor, o tome tko smo mi.

We, NSA, have not done a good job of that,

Mi, NSA, nismo dobro ovo obavili

and I think that's part of the reason

i djelomice je zbog toga

that this has been so revelational

ovo otkriće izazvalo

and so sensational in the media.

takvu senzaciju u medijima. Nitko nije znao tko smo mi.

Nobody knew who we were. We were the No Such Agency, the Never Say Anything.

Mi smo bili No Such Agency ili Never Say Anything.

There's takeoffs of our logo

Postoji prerada našeg logoa

of an eagle with headphones on around it.

kao orla sa slušalicama oko njega.

And so that's the public characterization.

To je javna karakterizacija.

And so we need to be more transparent about those things.

Stoga moramo biti transparentniji oko ovih stvari.

What we don't need to be transparent about,

Ne moramo biti transparentni

because it's bad for the U.S.,

jer je to opasno za SAD,

it's bad for all those other countries that we work with

opasno za sve druge države s kojima radimo

and that we help provide information

i kojima pomažemo dostaviti informacije,

that helps them secure themselves

koje njima pomažu osigurati sebe

and their people,

i svoje ljude,

it's bad to expose operations and capabilities

opasno je izložiti operacije i mogućnosti

in a way that allows the people that we're all working against,

na način koji omogućuje ljudima protiv kojih radimo,

the generally recognized bad guys,

protiv opće priznatih negativaca,

to counter those.

stvaranje protumjera.

CA: But isn't it also bad to deal

CA: Ali nije li isto tako opasno dati

a kind of body blow to the American companies

udarac u tijelo američkim tvrtkama

that have essentially given the world

koje su pružile svijetu

most of the Internet services that matter?

većinu važnijih internetskih usluga?

RL: It is. It's really the companies are

RL: Jeste. Istina je da su tvrtke

in a tough position, as are we,

u nezgodnoj poziciji, kao što smo i mi,

because the companies,

jer tvrtke

we compel them to provide information,

silimo na pružanje informacija,

just like every other nation in the world does.

baš kao i bilo koja druga nacija na svijetu.

Every industrialized nation in the world

Svaka industrijalizirana nacija u svijetu

has a lawful intercept program

ima zakoniti program presretanja

where they are requiring companies

prema kojem zahtijevaju od tvrtki

to provide them with information

pružanje informacija

that they need for their security,

koje su im potrebne za sigurnost,

and the companies that are involved

a uključene tvrtke

have complied with those programs

su pristale na ove programe

in the same way that they have to do

na isti način na koji to moraju

when they're operating in Russia or the U.K.

kada rade u Rusiji ili u U.K.-u

or China or India or France,

ili u Kini ili Indiji ili Francuskoj,

any country that you choose to name.

u bilo kojoj državi koju izaberete.

And so the fact that these revelations

Činjenica da su ova otkrića

have been broadly characterized as

široko okarakterizirana kao:

"you can't trust company A because

"Ne možete vjerovati tvrtki A jer

your privacy is suspect with them"

vam je privatnost s njima upitna",

is actually only accurate in the sense that

je samo točna u smislu da je

it's accurate with every other company in the world

točna s bilo kojom drugom tvrtkom na svijetu

that deals with any of those countries in the world.

koja djeluje u bilo kojoj državi na svijetu.

And so it's being picked up by people

Stoga ovo ljudi uzimaju

as a marketing advantage,

kao marketinšku prednost,

and it's being marketed that way by several countries,

a i neke države je tako tretiraju,

including some of our allied countries,

uključujući i neke savezničke države,

where they are saying,

kada govore:

"Hey, you can't trust the U.S.,

"Hej, ne možete vjerovati SAD-u,

but you can trust our telecom company,

ali možete vjerovati našoj telekomunikacijskoj tvrtki

because we're safe."

jer smo mi sigurni."

And they're actually using that to counter

I koriste ovo kako bi se suprostavili

the very large technological edge

vrlo jakoj tehnološkoj prednosti

that U.S. companies have

koju tvrtke SAD-a imaju

in areas like the cloud and Internet-based technologies.

u područjima tehnologije oblaka i interneta.

CA: You're sitting there with the American flag,

CA: Sjedite tamo s američkom zastavom

and the American Constitution guarantees

i američki Ustav garantira

freedom from unreasonable search and seizure.

slobodu od nerazumne pretrage i zadržavanja.

How do you characterize

Kako karakterizirate

the American citizen's right to privacy?

pravo američkog građanina na privatnost?

Is there such a right?

Postoji li takvo pravo?

RL: Yeah, of course there is.

RL: Da, naravno da postoji.

And we devote an inordinate amount of time and pressure,

I mi posvećujemo veliku količinu vremena i pritiska,

inordinate and appropriate, actually I should say,

veliku i prikladnu, rekao bih,

amount of time and effort in order to ensure

količinu vremena i truda kako bismo osigurali

that we protect that privacy.

zaštitu privatnosti.

and beyond that, the privacy of citizens

I više od toga, zaštitu privatnosti građana

around the world, it's not just Americans.

diljem svijeta, ne samo amerikanaca.

Several things come into play here.

Ovdje se radi o nekoliko stvari.

First, we're all in the same network.

Prvo, svi smo na istoj mreži.

My communications,

Moje komunikacije,

I'm a user of a particular Internet email service

ja sam korisnik jednog servisa za e-mail,

that is the number one email service of choice

koji je prvi po odabiru

by terrorists around the world, number one.

terorista diljem svijeta, prvi.

So I'm there right beside them in email space

Tako da sam ja točno pored njih u prostoru e-maila

in the Internet.

na internetu.

And so we need to be able to pick that apart

Moramo imati sposobnost ovo razdvojiti

and find the information that's relevant.

i pronaći relevantne informacije.

In doing so, we're going to necessarily encounter

Dok ovo radimo, nesumnjivo ćemo naići na

Americans and innocent foreign citizens

amerikance i nevine strane državljane,

who are just going about their business,

koji se bave svojim poslom

and so we have procedures in place that shreds that out,

i imamo uspostavljene postupke koji ovo raščlanjuju,

that says, when you find that,

koji kažu da kada nađemo to,

ne ako nađemo, nego kada nađemo jer ćemo sigurno naći,

not if you find it, when you find it, because you're certain to find it,

here's how you protect that.

ovako to zaštitite.

These are called minimization procedures.

Ovo se naziva postupcima minimalizacije.

They're approved by the attorney general

Njih odobrava državni odvjetnik

and constitutionally based.

i temelje se na Ustavu.

And so we protect those.

Tako da ovo štitimo.

And then, for people, citizens of the world

Potom, za ljude, građane svijeta

who are going about their lawful business

koji se bave zakonitim poslovima

on a day-to-day basis,

na svakodnevnoj bazi,

the president on his January 17 speech,

predsjednik je u svojem govoru 17. siječnja

laid out some additional protections

predstavio dodatne zaštite

that we are providing to them.

koje se njima pružaju.

So I think absolutely,

Apsolutno smatram da

folks do have a right to privacy,

ljudi imaju pravo na privatnost

and that we work very hard to make sure

te radimo naporno kako bismo osigurali

that that right to privacy is protected.

to da je pravo na privatnost zaštićeno.

CA: What about foreigners using

CA: Što je sa strancima koji koriste

American companies' Internet services?

internet usluge američkih tvrtki?

Do they have any privacy rights?

Imaju li oni pravo na privatnost?

RL: They do. They do, in the sense of,

RL: Imaju. Imaju, u smislu da je

the only way that we are able to compel

jedini način na koji možemo prisiliti

one of those companies to provide us information

jednu od takvih tvrtki da nam pruži informacije je

is when it falls into one of three categories:

kada pripada jednoj od ove tri kategorije:

We can identify that this particular person,

identificiramo da je taj pojedinac,

identified by a selector of some kind,

identificiran pomoću nekakvog izbornika,

is associated with counterterrorist

povezan s protuterorizmom

or proliferation or other foreign intelligence target.

ili proliferacijom ili drugim stranim obavještajnim metama.

CA: Much has been made of the fact that

CA: Mnogo se govorilo o činjenici da je

a lot of the information that you've obtained

puno informacija prikupljenih

through these programs is essentially metadata.

kroz ove programe zapravo metapodatci.

It's not necessarily the actual words

Nisu nužno stvarne riječi

that someone has written in an email

koje je netko napisao u e-mailu

or given on a phone call.

ili rekao preko telefona.

It's who they wrote to and when, and so forth.

Radi se o tome kome se pisalo i kada, itd.

But it's been argued,

No kaže se,

and someone here in the audience has talked

i netko iz publike je razgovarao s

to a former NSA analyst who said

bivšim analitičarom za NSA, koji je rekao

metadata is actually much more invasive

da su metapodatci zapravo invazivniji

than the core data,

od osnovnih podataka

because in the core data

jer se osnovnim podatcima

you present yourself as you want to be presented.

predstavljate onako kako se želite predstaviti.

With metadata, who knows what the conclusions are

Kroz metapodatke, tko zna kakvi se zaključci

that are drawn?

donose?

Is there anything to that?

Postoji li nešto u tome?

RL: I don't really understand that argument.

RL: Doista ne razumijem ovaj argument.

I think that metadata's important for a couple of reasons.

Mislim da su metapodatci važni iz dva razloga.

Metadata is the information that lets you

Metapodatci su informacije koje vam dopuštaju

find connections that people are trying to hide.

pronalaženje veza koje ljudi žele sakriti.

So when a terrorist is corresponding

Kada se terorist dopisuje

with somebody else who's not known to us

s nekim tko nam još nije poznat,

ali je uključen u djelovanje ili podržavanje terorističkih aktivnosti

but is engaged in doing or supporting terrorist activity,

or someone who's violating international sanctions

ili nekim tko krši međunarodne sankcije

by providing nuclear weapons-related material

pružanjem materijala povezanog s nuklearnim naoružanjem

to a country like Iran or North Korea,

državi poput Irana ili Sjeverne Koreje,

is trying to hide that activity because it's illicit activity.

oni pokušavaju prikriti ovu aktivnost jer je protuzakonita.

What metadata lets you do is connect that.

Metapodatci dopuštaju povezivanje ovoga.

The alternative to that

Alternativa ovome je

is one that's much less efficient

mnogo manje učinkovita,

and much more invasive of privacy,

a mnogo više zadire u privatnost,

which is gigantic amounts of content collection.

a to su gigantske količine skupljanja sadržaja.

So metadata, in that sense,

Metapodatci, na neki način,

actually is privacy-enhancing.

unaprjeđuju privatnost.

And we don't, contrary to some of the stuff

Suprotno od nekih stvari

that's been printed,

koje su pisane o nama,

we don't sit there and grind out

mi ne sjedimo tamo da bismo mljeli

metadata profiles of average people.

profile metapodataka prosječnih ljudi.

If you're not connected

Ako niste u vezi

to one of those valid intelligence targets,

s jednom od valjanih obavještajnih meta,

you are not of interest to us.

niste nam od interesa.

CA: So in terms of the threats

CA: U pogledu prijetnji

that face America overall,

s kojima se Amerika općenito suočava,

where would you place terrorism?

gdje biste smjestili terorizam?

RL: I think terrorism is still number one.

RL: Mislim da je terorizam još uvijek na prvom mjestu.

I think that we have never been in a time

Mislim da nismo bili u vremenu

where there are more places

u kojem ima više mjesta

where things are going badly

na kojima sve ide po zlu

and forming the petri dish in which terrorists

i koja stvaraju Petrijevu zdjelicu u kojoj teroristi

take advantage of the lack of governance.

iskorištavaju nedostatak vlasti.

An old boss of mine, Tom Fargo, Admiral Fargo,

Moj stari šef, Tom Fargo, Admiral Fargo,

used to describe it as arcs of instability.

opisivao je to kao svodove nestabilnosti.

And so you have a lot of those arcs of instability

Ima mnogo svodova nestabilnosti

in the world right now,

sada u svijetu,

in places like Syria, where there's a civil war

u mjestima poput Sirije, gdje je građanski rat

going on and you have massive numbers,

i gdje imate ogromne brojke,

thousands and thousands of foreign fighters

tisuće i tisuće stranih ratnika

who are coming into Syria

koji dolaze u Siriju

to learn how to be terrorists

da nauče biti teroristi

and practice that activity,

i prakticirati ovu aktivnost

and lots of those people are Westerners

i mnogo tih ljudi su Zapadnjaci,

who hold passports to European countries

koji imaju putovnice europskih država

or in some cases the United States,

ili u nekim slučajevima Sjedinjenih Država,

and so they are basically learning how

oni u osnovi uče kako

to do jihad and have expressed intent

djelovati u džihadu te iskazuju namjeru

to go out and do that later on

vratiti se i učiniti to

in their home countries.

u svojim domovinama.

You've got places like Iraq,

Imate mjesta poput Iraka,

which is suffering from a high level of sectarian violence,

koji pati od visoke razine sektaškog nasilja

again a breeding ground for terrorism.

što je, isto tako, plodno tlo za terorizam.

And you have the activity in the Horn of Africa

Imate i aktivnosti u Afričkom rogu

and the Sahel area of Africa.

i u sahelskom području Afrike.

Again, lots of weak governance

Opet, mnogo slabih vlasti

which forms a breeding ground for terrorist activity.

čime se stvara plodno tlo za terorističke aktivnosti.

Zato mislim da je vrlo ozbiljno. Mislim da je na prvom mjestu.

So I think it's very serious. I think it's number one.

I think number two is cyber threat.

Mislim da je na drugom mjestu cyber prijetnja.

I think cyber is a threat in three ways:

Mislim da cyber predstavlja prijetnju na tri načina:

One way, and probably the most common way

prvi i vjerojatno najuobičajeniji

that people have heard about it,

za koji su ljudi čuli jest

is due to the theft of intellectual property,

krađa intelektualnog vlasništva,

so basically, foreign countries going in,

u osnovi, strane države ulaze,

stealing companies' secrets,

kradu tajne tvrtki

and then providing that information

i predaju ove informacije

to state-owned enterprises

državnim poduzećima

or companies connected to the government

ili tvrtkama povezanim s vladom

to help them leapfrog technology

kako bi im pomogli u tehnološkom skoku

or to gain business intelligence

ili kako bi došli do poslovnih podataka

that's then used to win contracts overseas.

koji se koriste kako bi dobili natječaje u inozemstvu.

That is a hugely costly set of activities that's going on right now.

Ovo je niz skupih aktivnosti koje se sada odvijaju.

Several nation-states are doing it.

Nekoliko država ovo radi.

Second is the denial-of-service attacks.

Drugo su napadi uskraćivanjem usluge.

You're probably aware that there have been

Vjerojatno znate da je mnoštvo takvih

a spate of those directed against

usmjerenih na

the U.S. financial sector since 2012.

financijski sektor SAD-a od 2012. godine.

Again, that's a nation-state who is executing those attacks,

Ponovno, jedna država izvršava ove napade,

and they're doing that

a radi to

as a semi-anonymous way of reprisal.

na poluanonimni način odmazde.

Posljednji su destruktivni napadi,

And the last one is destructive attacks,

and those are the ones that concern me the most.

a ti me najviše zabrinjavaju.

Those are on the rise.

Ovi napadi su u usponu.

You have the attack against Saudi Aramco in 2012,

Imate napad protiv Saudi Aramca u 2012.,

August of 2012.

u kolovozu 2012. godine.

It took down about 35,000 of their computers

Ugasili su oko 35 000 njihovih računala

with a Wiper-style virus.

s virusom Wiper varijante.

You had a follow-on a week later

Imali ste sljedeći napad već tjedan kasnije,

to a Qatari company.

usmjeren na katarsku tvrtku.

You had March of 2013,

U ožujku 2013.,

you had a South Korean attack

imali ste napad Južne Koreje,

that was attributed in the press to North Korea

koji se u vijestima pripisivao Sjevernoj Koreji,

that took out thousands of computers.

koji je ugasio tisuće računala.

Those are on the rise,

Ovi su u usponu

and we see people expressing interest

i vidimo da ljudi izražavaju zanimanje

in those capabilities

za ove mogućnosti

and a desire to employ them.

i želju za njihovim korištenjem.

CA: Okay, so a couple of things here,

CA: OK, par stvari ovdje

because this is really the core of this, almost.

jer je ovo zaista središnji dio.

I mean, first of all,

Prvo,

a lot of people who look at risk

mnogo ljudi koji pogledaju rizike

and look at the numbers

i pogledaju brojeve,

don't understand this belief that terrorism

ne razumiju ovo vjerovanje da je terorizam

is still the number one threat.

još uvijek na prvom mjestu prijetnji.

Apart from September 11,

Pored 11. rujna,

I think the numbers are that in the last 30 or 40 years

u zadnjih 30 ili 40 godina, mislim da se radi o

about 500 Americans have died from terrorism,

500-tinjak amerikanaca koji su poginuli od terorizma,

mostly from homegrown terrorists.

uglavnom zbog domaćih terorista.

The chance in the last few years

U zadnjih par godina, vjerojatnost da će vas

of being killed by terrorism

is far less than the chance of being killed by lightning.

ubiti terorizam je

puno manja od toga da će vas ubiti munja.

I guess you would say that a single nuclear incident

Pretpostavljam da ćete reći da bi jedan nuklearni incident

or bioterrorism act or something like that

ili bioterorizam ili nešto tako

would change those numbers.

izmijenio ove brojke.

Would that be the point of view?

Je li ovo vaša perspektiva?

RL: Well, I'd say two things.

RL: Rekao bih dvije stvari.

One is, the reason that there hasn't been

Prvo, razlog što nije bilo

a major attack in the United States since 9/11,

većih napada u Sjedinjenim Državama od 11. rujna

that is not an accident.

nije slučajnost.

That's a lot of hard work that we have done,

Napravili smo puno posla

that other folks

kao i drugi kolege

in the intelligence community have done,

u obavještajnoj zajednici

that the military has done,

i vojska

and that our allies around the globe have done.

i naši saveznici diljem svijeta.

You've heard the numbers about

Čuli ste brojeve o

the tip of the iceberg in terms

vrhu sante leda u pogledu

of numbers of terrorist attacks that NSA programs

broja terorističkih napada koje su NSA-ini programi

contributed to stopping was 54,

pomogli spriječiti bio 54,

25 of those in Europe,

od toga 25 u Europi,

and of those 25,

a od tih 25,

18 of them occurred in three countries,

18 ih se dogodilo u tri države,

some of which are our allies,

od kojih su neke naši saveznici,

and some of which are beating the heck out of us

a neke nam otežavaju život

over the NSA programs, by the way.

zbog NSA-inih programa.

So that's not an accident that those things happen.

Nije slučajnost da se takve stvari događaju.

That's hard work. That's us finding intelligence

To je naporan rad. To smo mi koji nalazimo informacije

on terrorist activities

o terorističkim aktivnostima

and interdicting them through one way or another,

i zaustavljamo ih

through law enforcement,

kroz policiju,

through cooperative activities with other countries

kroz suradničke aktivnosti s drugim državama,

and sometimes through military action.

a ponekad kroz vojnu akciju.

The other thing I would say is that

Druga stvar koju bih rekao jest da

your idea of nuclear or chem-bio-threat

Vaša ideja o nuklearnoj ili kemijsko-biološkoj prijetnji

is not at all far-fetched

nije toliko nategnuta

and in fact there are a number of groups

i veći broj grupa je

who have for several years expressed interest

u zadnjih nekoliko godina izrazilo zanimanje

and desire in obtaining those capabilities

i želju nabaviti ove mogućnosti

and work towards that.

te rade prema tome.

CA: It's also been said that,

CA: Isto tako je rečeno da

of those 54 alleged incidents,

od ova 54 navodna incidenta,

that as few as zero of them

da ih je malo, možda nijedan,

were actually anything to do

zapravo imalo veze

with these controversial programs

s ovim kontroverznim programima

that Mr. Snowden revealed,

koje je g. Snowden otkrio,

that it was basically through other forms of intelligence,

da se ovo odvilo kroz druge oblike informiranja,

that you're looking for a needle in a haystack,

da tražite iglu u plastu sijena,

and the effects of these programs,

a učinci ovih programa,

these controversial programs,

ovih kontroverznih programa,

is just to add hay to the stack,

jest da samo dodaju sijena na plast,

not to really find the needle.

kako se igla ne bi našla.

The needle was found by other methods.

Igla se našla drugim metodama.

Isn't there something to that?

Ima li nešto u tome?

RL: No, there's actually two programs

RL: Ne, zapravo postoje dva programa

that are typically implicated in that discussion.

koja se obično uvode u ovu raspravu.

One is the section 215 program,

Jedan je program Odjeljka 215,

the U.S. telephony metadata program,

program metapodataka telefonije SAD-a,

and the other one is

a drugi se

popularly called the PRISM program,

popularno naziva PRISM program,

and it's actually section 702 of the FISA Amendment Act.

a to je zapravo Odjeljak 702 Zakona o izmjenama i dopunama FISA-e.

But the 215 program

No program 215 je

is only relevant to threats

relevantan samo za prijetnje

that are directed against the United States,

koje su usmjerene protiv Sjedinjenih Država,

and there have been a dozen threats

a bilo je na desetke prijetnji

where that was implicated.

u koje je on bio uključen.

Now what you'll see people say publicly

Ono što ljudi javno kažu

is there is no "but for" case,

je da nema "samo zbog" slučaja,

and so there is no case where, but for that,

i nema slučaja u kojem se "samo zbog" toga

the threat would have happened.

prijetnja nije dogodila.

But that actually indicates a lack of understanding

No ovo ukazuje na nedostatak razumijevanja

of how terrorist investigations actually work.

toga kako teroristička istraga funkcionira.

You think about on television,

Mislite da je kao na televiziji

you watch a murder mystery.

kada gledate istragu ubojstva.

What do you start with? You start with a body,

S čim započinjete? Započinjete s tijelom,

and then they work their way from there to solve the crime.

a potom rade dalje kako bi riješili zločin.

We're actually starting well before that,

Mi zapravo počinjemo puno prije toga,

hopefully before there are any bodies,

prije nego što postoje tijela

and we're trying to build the case for

i pokušavamo stvoriti slučaj

who the people are, what they're trying to do,

otkrivajući tko su ti ljudi i što namjeravaju učiniti,

and that involves massive amounts of information.

a to uključuje masivne količine informacija.

Think of it is as mosaic,

Zamislite to kao mozaik

and it's hard to say that any one piece of a mosaic

gdje je teško reći da je jedan dio mozaika

was necessary to building the mosaic,

bio odgovoran za njegovu izgradnju,

but to build the complete picture,

ali da se stvori cijela slika

you need to have all the pieces of information.

morate imati sve informacije.

On the other, the non-U.S.-related threats out of those 54,

S druge strane, od one 54 prijetnje koje nisu bile povezane sa SAD-om,

the other 42 of them,

preostale 42,

the PRISM program was hugely relevant to that,

program PRISM bio je neopisivo relevantan

and in fact was material in contributing

i bio je neophodan

to stopping those attacks.

u zaustavljanju tih napada.

CA: Snowden said two days ago

CA: Snowden je prije dva dana rekao

that terrorism has always been

da je terorizam uvijek bio

what is called in the intelligence world

ono što se u obavještajnom svijetu naziva

"a cover for action,"

"paravan za akciju",

that it's something that,

da je to nešto,

because it invokes such a powerful

zbog toga što se poziva na snažan

emotional response in people,

emocionalni odgovor u ljudima,

it allows the initiation of these programs

omogućava pokretanje ovih programa

to achieve powers that an organization like yours

kako bi se stekla moć kakvu organizacija poput vaše

couldn't otherwise have.

inače ne bi mogla imati.

Is there any internal debate about that?

Postoji li interna rasprava o tome?

RL: Yeah.

RL: Postoji.

I mean, we debate these things all the time,

Neprestano raspravljamo o ovim stvarima,

and there is discussion that goes on

a rasprava koja se odvija

in the executive branch

u izvršnoj grani

and within NSA itself

i unutar same NSA

and the intelligence community about

i u obavještajnoj zajednici o tome

what's right, what's proportionate,

što je ispravno, što je razmjerno,

what's the correct thing to do.

što je pravilno za napraviti.

And it's important to note that the programs

Važno je za napomenuti da su programe

that we're talking about

o kojima pričamo

were all authorized by two different presidents,

ovlastila dva različita predsjednika,

two different political parties,

dvije različite političke stranke,

by Congress twice,

Kongres dvaput

and by federal judges 16 different times,

te savezni sudci 16 puta,

and so this is not NSA running off

tako da nije da se NSA skriva

and doing its own thing.

i radi ono što želi.

This is a legitimate activity

Ovo je legitimna aktivnost

of the United States foreign government

vanjskih poslova Sjedinjenih Država

that was agreed to by all the branches

koju su dogovorile sve tri grane

of the United States government,

vlasti Sjedinjenih Država,

and President Madison would have been proud.

a predsjednik Madison bio bi ponosan.

CA: And yet, when congressmen discovered

CA: Pa ipak, kada su kongresnici otkrili

what was actually being done with that authorization,

što se točno odvijalo s tom ovlasti,

many of them were completely shocked.

mnogi su bili potpuno šokirani.

Or do you think that is not a legitimate reaction,

Ili mislite da to nije legitimna reakcija

that it's only because it's now come out publicly,

nego je takva jer je sve proizašlo u javnost

that they really knew exactly what you were doing

i da su točno znali što radite

with the powers they had granted you?

s ovlastima koje su vam dane?

RL: Congress is a big body.

RL: Kongres je veliko tijelo.

There's 535 of them,

Njih je 535

and they change out frequently,

i često se mijenjaju,

in the case of the House, every two years,

u slučaju doma, svake dvije godine

and I think that the NSA provided

i mislim da je NSA predala

all the relevant information to our oversight committees,

sve relevantne informacije nadzornim odborima,

and then the dissemination of that information

a tada je raspodjela informacija

by the oversight committees throughout Congress

nadzornog odbora u Kongresu

is something that they manage.

nešto čime se oni bave.

I think I would say that Congress members

Rekao bih da su članovi Kongresa

had the opportunity to make themselves aware,

imali mogućnost informirati se,

and in fact a significant number of them,

a značajan broj njih,

the ones who are assigned oversight responsibility,

onih kojima se dodijelila odgovornost nadzora,

did have the ability to do that.

imao je mogućnost to napraviti.

And you've actually had the chairs of those committees say that in public.

I predsjedatelji ovih odbora rekli su to u javnosti.

CA: Now, you mentioned the threat of cyberattacks,

CA: Spomenuli ste prijetnju cyber napada

and I don't think anyone in this room would disagree

i svi u ovoj prostoriji bi se složili

that that is a huge concern,

da je to ogromna briga,

but do you accept that there's a tradeoff

ali prihvaćate li da postoji dvojba

between offensive and defensive strategies,

između ofenzivnih i defenzivnih strategija

and that it's possible that the very measures taken

i da je moguće da su te iste mjere

to, "weaken encryption,"

koje su "oslabile enkripciju"

and allow yourself to find the bad guys,

i omogućavaju vam pronalazak zločinaca,

might also open the door to forms of cyberattack?

mogu otvoriti vrata oblicima cyber napada?

RL: So I think two things.

RL: Mislim dvije stvari.

One is, you said weaken encryption. I didn't.

Prvo, rekao si oslabljena enkripcija. Ja nisam.

And the other one is that

A drugo je to da

the NSA has both of those missions,

NSA ima obje ove misije

and we are heavily biased towards defense,

i mi smo teško naklonjeni obrani

and, actually, the vulnerabilities that we find

i, zapravo, ranjivosti koje nalazimo

in the overwhelming majority of cases,

u velikoj većini slučajeva,

we disclose to the people who are responsible

otkrivamo ljudima koji su odgovorni

for manufacturing or developing those products.

za proizvodnju i razvoj ovih proizvoda.

We have a great track record of that,

Imamo dobra postignuća u vezi toga,

and we're actually working on a proposal right now

a trenutno radimo na prijedlogu

to be transparent and to publish transparency reports

o transparentnosti i objavi izvješća o transparentnosti

in the same way that the Internet companies

na isti način na koji se tvrtkama za internet

are being allowed to publish transparency reports for them.

dozvoljava objava izvješća o transparentnosti.

We want to be more transparent about that.

Želimo biti transparentniji o tome.

So again, we eat our own dog food.

Ponovno, mi koristimo ista rješenja.

We use the standards, we use the products

Koristimo standarde i proizvode

that we recommend,

koje preporučamo

and so it's in our interest

tako da nam je u interesu

to keep our communications protected

zaštititi komunikacije

in the same way that other people's need to be.

na isti način kao i tuđe.

CA: Edward Snowden,

CA: Edward Snowden,

when, after his talk, was wandering the halls here

kada je šetao hodnicima nakon svog govora

in the bot,

u svom botu,

and I heard him say to a couple of people,

nekoliko ljudi ga je pitalo

they asked him about what he thought

o tome što misli

of the NSA overall,

o NSA općenito

and he was very complimentary about the people

i davao je komplimente o ljudima

who work with you,

koji rade s vama

said that it's a really

i rekao da je to zbilja

impassioned group of employees

strastvena grupa zaposlenika

who are seeking to do the right thing,

koji žele učiniti ispravnu stvar

and that the problems have come from

i da se problem javio

just some badly conceived policies.

zbog loše zamišljene politike.

He came over certainly very reasonably and calmly.

Doimao se jako razumno i mirno.

He didn't come over like a crazy man.

Nije se doimao kao luđak.

Would you accept that at least,

Biste li prihvatili barem,

even if you disagree with how he did it,

čak i ako se ne slažete s tim kako je to napravio,

that he has opened a debate that matters?

da je otvorio bitnu raspravu?

RL: So I think that the discussion

RL: Mislim da je bitno

is an important one to have.

da se ova rasprava odvija.

I do not like the way that he did it.

Ne sviđa mi se način na koji je to učinio.

I think there were a number of other ways

Mislim da su brojni drugi načini

that he could have done that

na koje je to mogao napraviti,

that would have not endangered our people

a koji ne bi stavili naše ljude u opasnost

and the people of other nations

i ljude drugih nacija

through losing visibility

kroz gubitak uvida

into what our adversaries are doing.

u to što rade naši protivnici.

But I do think it's an important conversation.

Ali mislim da je ovo važan dijalog.

CA: It's been reported that there's

CA: Rečeno nam je da

almost a difference of opinion

postoji razlika u mišljenjma

with you and your colleagues

između Vas i Vaših kolega

over any scenario in which

o scenariju u kojemu

he might be offered an amnesty deal.

bi mu se mogla dati amnestija.

I think your boss, General Keith Alexander,

Mislim da je Vaš šef, general Keith Alexander,

has said that that would be a terrible example

rekao da bi to bio grozan primjer

for others;

drugima;

you can't negotiate with someone

ne možete pregovarati s nekim

who's broken the law in that way.

tko je na taj način prekršio zakon.

But you've been quoted as saying that,

No, citirali su Vas i rekli ste da

if Snowden could prove that he was surrendering

ako Snowden može dokazati da predaje

all undisclosed documents,

sve još neotkrivene dokumente,

that a deal maybe should be considered.

da je dogovor možda moguć.

Do you still think that?

Mislite li još uvijek ovo?

RL: Yeah, so actually,

RL: Da, zapravo,

this is my favorite thing about that "60 Minutes" interview

moj najdraži dio o tom "60-minutnom" intervjuu

was all the misquotes that came from that.

su svi iskrivljeni citati koji su iz toga proizašli.

What I actually said, in response to a question about,

Ono što sam zapravo rekao kao odgovor na pitanje o tome

would you entertain any discussions

bih li sudjelovao u raspravama

of mitigating action against Snowden,

o ublažavanju akcija protiv Snowdena.

I said, yeah, it's worth a conversation.

Rekao sam da da, da vrijedi porazgovarati o tome.

This is something that the attorney general

Ovo je nešto o čemu su glavni državni odvjetnik

of the United States and the president also

Sjedinjenih Država i predsjednik

actually have both talked about this,

razgovarali

and I defer to the attorney general,

i poštujem državnog odvjetnika

because this is his lane.

jer je to njegova odluka.

But there is a strong tradition

No postoji snažna tradicija

in American jurisprudence

u američkoj zakonskoj praksi

of having discussions with people

o dijalogu s ljudima

who have been charged with crimes in order to,

koji su optuženi za zločine,

if it benefits the government,

ukoliko je na korist vladi,

to get something out of that,

kada bi vlada dobila nešto od toga,

that there's always room for that kind of discussion.

da uvijek postoji mjesto za takav dijalog.

So I'm not presupposing any outcome,

Ne pretpostavljam nikakav ishod,

but there is always room for discussion.

ali uvijek postoji mjesto za dijalog.

CA: To a lay person it seems like

CA: Laicima se čini kako

he has certain things to offer the U.S.,

ima nešto za ponuditi SAD-u,

the government, you, others,

vladi, Vama, drugima,

in terms of putting things right

u pogledu ispravljanja stvari

and helping figure out a smarter policy,

i pomaganju smišljanja pametnije politike,

a smarter way forward for the future.

pametnijem putu naprijed, u budućnost.

Do you see, has that kind of possibility

Smatrate li da bi se ovakva mogućnost

been entertained at all?

uopće mogla ostvariti?

RL: So that's out of my lane.

RL: Ovo je izvan mojih odluka.

That's not an NSA thing.

To nije pitanje NSA.

That would be a Department of Justice

To bi bilo pitanje za

sort of discussion.

Ministarstvo pravosuđa.

I'll defer to them.

Ja ću poštovati njih.

CA: Rick, when Ed Snowden ended his talk,

CA: Rick, kada je Ed Snowden završio svoj govor,

I offered him the chance to share an idea worth spreading.

ponudio sam mu priliku podijeliti ideju vrijednu širenja.

What would be your idea worth spreading

Što bi bila Vaša ideja vrijedna širenja

for this group?

ovoj grupi?

RL: So I think, learn the facts.

RL: Doznajte činjenice.

This is a really important conversation,

Ovo je zbilja važan dijalog,

and it impacts, it's not just NSA,

i utječe, ne samo na NSA,

it's not just the government,

ne samo na vlast,

it's you, it's the Internet companies.

nego na vas, na internet tvrtke.

The issue of privacy and personal data

Pitanje privatnosti i osobnih podataka

is much bigger than just the government,

mnogo je veće od same vlade

and so learn the facts.

stoga doznajte činjenice.

Don't rely on headlines,

Nemojte se oslanjati na naslove novina,

don't rely on sound bites,

na zvučne isječke,

don't rely on one-sided conversations.

na jednostrane razgovore.

So that's the idea, I think, worth spreading.

Mislim da je to ideja vrijedna širenja.

We have a sign, a badge tab,

Imamo natpis, iskaznice,

we wear badges at work with lanyards,

nosimo iskaznice na poslu na vrpcama,

and if I could make a plug,

ako bih mogao skrenuti s teme,

my badge lanyard at work says, "Dallas Cowboys."

na mojoj vrpci piše: "Dallas Cowboys."

Go Dallas.

Idemo, Dallas.

I've just alienated half the audience, I know.

Upravo sam se otuđio od pola publike, znam.

So the lanyard that our people

Ljudi

koji rade u organizaciji

who work in the organization

that does our crypto-analytic work

koja se bavi kripto-analitičkim radom

imaju vrpce na kojima piše: "Pogledajte podatke."

have a tab that says, "Look at the data."

So that's the idea worth spreading.

To je ideja vrijedna širenja.

Look at the data.

Pogledajte podatke.

CA: Rick, it took a certain amount of courage,

CA: Rick, mislim da je trebalo

I think, actually, to come and speak openly

imati hrabrosti doći i otvoreno razgovarati

to this group.

s ovom grupom.

It's not something the NSA has done a lot of in the past,

To nije nešto što je NSA radila u prošlosti,

and plus the technology has been challenging.

a i tehnologija je stvarala izazov.

We truly appreciate you doing that

Doista nam je drago što ste ovo učinili

and sharing in this very important conversation.

i sudjelovali u ovom važnom razgovoru.

Thank you so much.

Puno hvala.

RL: Thanks, Chris.

RL: Hvala, Chris.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)