Gordon Brown on global ethic vs. national interest

翻译人员: Chunxiang Qian 校对人员: Xiaoqiao Xie

克里斯・安德森：非常感谢，首相阁下

Chris Anderson: Thank you so much, Prime Minister,

that was both fascinating and quite inspiring.

十分精彩而振奋的演讲

So, you're calling for a global ethic.

您倡导全球伦理

Would you describe that as global citizenship?

您会称之为

世界公民吗？

Is that an idea that you believe in, and how would you define that?

您同意这个说法吗？

您会怎么定义？

Gordon Brown: It is about global citizenship

戈登・布朗：我想这是世界公民的意思

and recognizing our responsibilities to others.

我们要认识到对别人的责任

There is so much to do over the next few years

在今后的几年里我们要做的还有很多

that is obvious to so many of us

我们很多人显然都很清楚我们需要建设一个更好的世界

to build a better world.

And there is so much shared sense of what we need to do,

对于要做什么我们持有很多共识

that it is vital that we all come together.

合作是至关重要的

But we don't necessarily have the means to do so.

但我们还无法做到这一点

So there are challenges to be met.

所以我们面临挑战

I believe the concept of global citizenship

我认为，世界公民的概念

会随着人们跨洲际的交流而自然生发

will simply grow out of people talking to each other across continents.

But of course the task is to create the institutions

所以任务就是要

建立一个机构

that make that global society work.

保证世界社会的运营

But I don't think we should underestimate

我们不应当低估

the extent to which massive changes in technology

技术的巨大发展

make possible the linking up of people across the world.

将为世界人民的联结

提供可能性

CA: But people get excited about this idea of global citizenship,

CA:人们听到世界公民

就会兴奋起来

but then they get confused a bit again

不过当他们思及爱国主义

when they start thinking about patriotism,

以及如何结合二者时

and how to combine these two.

难免又有点困惑

I mean, you're elected as Prime Minister

您是首相

with a brief to bat for Britain.

身负英国人民的厚望

How do you reconcile the two things?

您是如何平衡二者的呢？

GB: Well, of course national identity remains important.

GB：国民身份

固然重要

But it's not at the expense of people accepting their global responsibilities.

但这与承认世界公民责任

并不相悖

And I think one of the problems of recession

经济衰退带来的问题之一

is that people become more protectionist,

是人们更倾向保护主义

they look in on themselves,

他们只看着自己

they try to protect their own nation,

要看好自己的家门

perhaps at the expense of other nations.

也许代价就是别国的利益

When you actually look at the motor of the world economy,

但是当你看看世界经济的引擎时

it cannot move forward

没有国家间贸易

unless there is trade between the different countries.

这个引擎无法转动

And any nation that would become protectionist over the next few years

如果某国在未来几年里死守保护主义

would deprive itself of the chance of getting the benefits

只会脱离全球经济的利益链条

作茧自缚

of growth in the world economy.

So, you've got to have a healthy sense of patriotism;

所以爱国主义也得是健全的

that's absolutely important.

这很重要

But you've got to realize that this world has changed fundamentally,

但是我们必须意识到，这个世界有了翻天覆地的变化

and the problems we have cannot be solved by one nation and one nation alone.

我们面临的问题不是

单单一个国家能解决的

CA: Well, indeed.

CA：的确。但是二者冲突时

But what do you do when the two come into conflict

您会怎么做

and you're forced to make a decision

您必须二择一的话

that either is in Britain's interest, or the interest of Britons,

就是，一边是英国的利益

或者说英国人的利益

or citizens elsewhere in the world?

另一边是别的地方的人们的利益？

GB: Well I think we can persuade people

GB：我认为，我们能说服人们

that what is necessary for Britain's long-term interests,

英国人的长期利益是什么

what is necessary for America's long-term interests,

美国人的长期利益是什么

is proper engagement with the rest of the world,

我们的利益和世界各国人们的利益

and taking the action that is necessary.

是可以统一并且需要共同努力的

There is a great story, again, told about Richard Nixon.

只要想想－关于理查德・尼克松

有个极好的故事

1958, Ghana becomes independent,

1958年，加纳独立

so it is just over 50 years ago.

不过是五十年前的事

Richard Nixon goes to represent the United States government

理查德・尼克松代表

美国政府

at the celebrations for independence in Ghana.

前往加纳出席

独立庆典

And it's one of his first outings as Vice President to an African country.

那是他作为副总统

第一次出访非洲国家

He doesn't quite know what to do,

他有点不知所措

so he starts going around the crowd

他就穿梭在人群里

and starts talking to people

四处交谈

and he says to people in this rather unique way,

他的问话很独特

"How does it feel to be free?"

“自由的感觉如何？”

And he's going around, "How does it feel to be free?"

他就到处问：“自由的感觉怎么样？”

"How does it feel to be free?"

“自由的感觉怎么样？”

然后有个人说

And then someone says,

"How should I know? I come from Alabama."

“我怎么知道？我来自阿拉巴马州。”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And that was the 1950s.

那是上世纪五十年代

Now, what is remarkable

耐人寻味的是

在美国，民权是到六十年代

is that civil rights in America were achieved in the 1960s.

才被普遍承认的

But what is equally remarkable

同样值得注意的是

is socioeconomic rights in Africa have not moved forward very fast

非洲的社会和经济权利

自殖民时代以来

even since the age of colonialism.

并没有大的改善

And yet, America and Africa have got a common interest.

但是，美国和非洲

有一个共同利益

And we have got to realize that if we don't link up

我们意识到

如果不团结起

with those people who are sensible voices and democratic voices in Africa,

非洲理性和民主的人士

为共同目标而努力

to work together for common causes,

then the danger of Al Qaeda and related groups

那么诸如基地组织等就会

在非洲大肆横行

making progress in Africa is very big.

So, I would say that what seems sometimes

所以我们对非洲国家的关系

to be altruism, in relation to Africa, or in relation to developing countries,

还有其他发展中国家的关系

有时候看起来是利他主义，但远不止如此

is more than that.

我们从自身利益出发

It is enlightened self-interest for us to work with other countries.

去和其他国家合作

And I would say that national interest

国家利益和

and, if you like, what is the global interest

比如，消除贫困和应对气候变化的

to tackle poverty and climate change

全球利益是

do, in the long run, come together.

在长期上是一致的

And whatever the short-run price for taking action on climate change

不论是针对气候变化、安全问题

or on security, or taking action to provide opportunities

或者提供教育机会

采取措施而带来的短期代价

for people for education,

these are prices that are worth paying

是值得的

so that you build a stronger global society

如此我们才能建设更强健的全球社会

where people feel able to feel comfortable with each other

人们能够平和相处

and are able to communicate with each other in such a way

这样一来

that you can actually build stronger links between different countries.

国家间的关系

也就更紧密

CA: I still just want to draw out on this issue.

CA：我还想深入了解一下这个问题

So, you're on vacation at a nice beach,

假如您在某个美丽的海滩上度假

and word comes through that there's been a massive earthquake

听说发生了地震

and that there is a tsunami advancing on the beach.

海啸正向海滩袭来

One end of the beach, there is a house containing a family of five Nigerians.

海滩的一边是

尼日利亚一家五口人

海滩另一边

And at the other end of the beach there is a single Brit.

是一个英国人

You have time to --

你只有通知一户人家的时间

(Laughter)

you have time to alert one house.

你会怎么办？

（笑声）

What do you do?

(Laughter)

GB：有现代通讯呢

GB: Modern communications.

(Applause)

（掌声）

Alert both.

两边都提醒（掌声）

(Applause)

I do agree that my responsibility

我承认我的首要职责

是要保证

is first of all to make sure that people in our country are safe.

我国人民的安全

我希望我今天的话

And I wouldn't like anything that is said today to suggest

被理解成我在

that I am diminishing the importance of the responsibility

我对责任的重要性

that each leader has for their own country.

责任的重要性

But I'm trying to suggest that there is a huge opportunity

我要说的是

我们今天拥有的机会

open to us that was never open to us before.

以前我们从未有过是

But the power to communicate across borders

这是个我们能够跨越国界

allows us to organize the world in a different way.

用新方法鼓动起整个世界的机会

比如海啸，这是个经典例子

And I think, look at the tsunami, it's a classic example.

Where was the early warning systems?

早期预警系统干什么去了？

Where was the world acting together

为什么没有

针对地震和气候变化

to deal with the problems that they knew arose

from the potential for earthquakes,

导致的潜在问题的

as well as the potential for climate change?

共同行动方案

And when the world starts to work together,

当我们有早期预警系统

来共同协作

with better early-warning systems,

you can deal with some of these problems in a better way.

那么你就能更好地

处理这些问题

I just think we're not seeing, at the moment,

我觉得我们没有看到

the huge opportunities open to us by the ability of people to cooperate

机会向我们敞开大门

只要我们能同心协力

in a world where either there was isolationism before

抛弃之前的孤立主义

or there was limited alliances based on convenience

或者为了暂时利益

而结成的

which never actually took you to deal with some of the central problems.

无法解决核心问题的

短暂联盟

CA: But I think this is the frustration

CA：但是我相信很多人

that perhaps a lot of people have, like people in the audience here,

在场观众也会，有种挫折感

where we love the kind of language that you're talking about.

我们喜欢你说的话

It is inspiring.

振奋人心 很多人相信

A lot of us believe that that has to be the world's future.

这就是世界的未来

但是 一旦风向变了

And yet, when the situation changes,

you suddenly hear politicians talking as if,

这些政客们就是另一番说辞

you know, for example, the life of one American soldier

比如，一个美国士兵的价值

is worth countless numbers of Iraqi civilians.

抵过千万名伊拉克平民

When the pedal hits the metal,

但是一旦战线全速推进

the idealism can get moved away.

理想主义就遁形了

I'm just wondering whether you can see that changing over time,

我想知道

您觉得现在

whether you see in Britain

或是在英国

that there are changing attitudes,

人民的态度在转变吗？

and that people are actually more supportive

是不是有很多人支持

of the kind of global ethic that you talk about.

您所谓的全球伦理？

GB: I think every religion, every faith,

GB：我认为每种宗教，每种信仰

and I'm not just talking here to people of faith or religion --

我不是在这儿对宗教和信仰

夸夸其谈

it has this global ethic at the center of its credo.

每种信仰在其教义里含有全球伦理

And whether it's Jewish or whether it's Muslim

不论是犹太人还是穆斯林

or whether it's Hindu, or whether it's Sikh,

不论是印度教徒还是锡克教徒

the same global ethic is at the heart of each of these religions.

这些宗教的核心

都包括全球伦理

So, I think you're dealing with something

我想这是

that people instinctively see as part of their moral sense.

人们本能地将其

看作自身道德的一部分

So you're building on something that is not pure self-interest.

所以这并不是完全

自身利益的事

You're building on people's ideas and values --

这是基于人们的理想和价值

that perhaps they're candles that burn very dimly on certain occasions.

如同蜡烛一样

有时候烛光微弱

但是我认为这些价值

But it is a set of values that cannot, in my view, be extinguished.

是不可能熄灭的

Then the question is,

问题在于

how do you make that change happen?

怎样才能改变？

How do you persuade people that it is in their interest

怎样才能说服人们

这是为了他们自身利益

to build strong --

二战以后

After the Second World War,

we built institutions, the United Nations,

成立了一些国际组织

联合国，国际货币基金组织，世界银行

the IMF, the World Bank,

the World Trade Organization, the Marshall Plan.

世界贸易组织，马歇尔计划

There was a period in which people talked about an act of creation,

那个时期

人们都期待新的作为

because these institutions were so new.

因为这些组织当时还很新

But they are now out of date. They don't deal with the problems.

但是现在他们已经过时了，无法解决问题

如我所说，现存的组织

You can't deal with the environmental problem

无法解决环境问题

through existing institutions.

You can't deal with the security problem in the way that you need to.

无法应对安全问题

无法应付经济和财政问题

You can't deal with the economic and financial problem.

So we have got to rebuild our global institutions,

我们必须重建全球性组织

build them in a way that is suitable to the challenges of this time.

使他们能够适应

现今的挑战 我相信

And I believe that if you look at the biggest challenge we face,

我们现在最大的挑战

it is to persuade people to have the confidence

是说服人们去相信

that we can build a truly global society

靠基于这些新年的组织

with the institutions that are founded on these rules.

我们能建起一个真正的全球社会

So, I come back to my initial point.

所以回答我开始的观点

Sometimes you think things are impossible.

有时候你觉得不可能的事

Nobody would have said 50 years ago

五十年前没人会说

that apartheid would have gone in 1990,

南非的种族隔离在1990年被消除

or that the Berlin wall would have fallen at the turn of the '80s and '90s,

或是柏林墙会在八九十年代之际被推倒

or that polio could be eradicated,

或者小儿麻痹症能被根除

or perhaps 60 years ago,

又或许六十年前没人会说

nobody would have said a man could gone to the Moon.

人类能登上月球

All these things have happened.

这些都发生了

By tackling the impossible, you make the impossible possible.

始于不可能

化为可能

CA: And we have had a speaker who said that very thing,

CA：我们之前有个演讲者也这么说过

然后他就表演了吞剑

and swallowed a sword right after that, which was quite dramatic.

非常惊险（笑声）

(Laughter)

GB：下面我将表演吞剑（笑声）

GB: Followed my sword and swallow.

CA：但是一个真正的全球伦理

CA: But, surely a true global ethic is for someone to say,

人们会说

“我相信这个世界上的

"I believe that the life of every human on the planet

每一个生命都是同等的

is worth the same, equal consideration,

不论国籍宗教

regardless of nationality and religion."

需得到同等对待”

And you have politicians who have --

政治家是选出来的

you're elected.

所以某种程度上说你不能说这话

In a way, you can't say that.

Even if, as a human being, you believe that,

哪怕作为一个人来说你相信这一点

you can't say that.

你也不能说

You're elected for Britain's interests.

你被选择了代表英国人的利益

GB: We have a responsibility to protect.

GB：但是我们有责任去保护

I mean look, 1918, the Treaty of Versailles,

1918年的凡尔赛条约

and all the treaties before that,

和之前的所有条约

the Treaty of Westphalia and everything else,

威斯特伐利亚和约等等

were about protecting the sovereign right of countries

都只是为了保护一个国家的主权

从而他们自己可以为所欲为

to do what they want.

Since then, the world has moved forward,

但世界有了变化

partly as a result of what happened with the Holocaust,

一部分是因为

对犹太人的大屠杀

and people's concern about the rights of individuals

人们对开始关注他们要保护的领土内

within territories where they need protection,

人们的权利

partly because of what we saw in Rwanda,

一部分是因为卢旺达的屠杀

一部分是发生在波斯尼亚的屠杀

partly because of what we saw in Bosnia.

保护所有处在

The idea of the responsibility to protect

人道危机的人们的责任

all individuals who are in situations where they are at humanitarian risk

已经成为了

is now being established as a principle which governs the world.

世界上广泛接受原则

So, while I can't automatically say

虽然我不能说

that Britain will rush to the aid of any citizen of any country, in danger,

英国会义无反顾地投入

对任何一个国家处于危险的人们援救

I can say that Britain is in a position

但可以这么说英国会和

其他国家共同努力

where we're working with other countries

so that this idea that you have a responsibility

把保护大屠杀的

to protect people who are victims of either genocide or humanitarian attack,

或者人道攻击的受害者

视为己任的意识

is something that is accepted by the whole world.

推广到全世界

只有国际机构发挥效力

Now, in the end, that can only be achieved

if your international institutions work well enough to be able to do so.

这个目标才能达成

And that comes back to what the future role of the United Nations,

这就说到联合国在未来的角色

and what it can do, actually is.

及其力之所及

But, the responsibility to protect is a new idea that is, in a sense,

保护的责任

是一个新的概念

taken over from the idea of self-determination

正取代原先国际社会的

as the principle governing the international community.

民族自决的原则

CA: Can you picture, in our lifetimes,

CA:您觉得有可能在我们这一代

a politician ever going out on a platform

一个政客会在

of the kind of full-form global ethic, global citizenship?

一个全球伦理

世界公民的立场上，说

And basically saying, "I believe that all people across the planet

“我相信，全世界人民

应得到平等对待

have equal consideration,

and if in power we will act in that way.

如果当选我们将奉行此理念

And we believe that the people of this country

我相信这个国家的国民也由此

are also now global citizens and will support that ethic."

成为世界公民并支持这样的伦理。”

GB: Is that not what we're doing in the debate about climate change?

GB：这不正是在气候变化之争中

我们的做法吗？

We're saying that you cannot solve

我们说一个国家

无法单独解决气候问题

the problem of climate change in one country;

you've got to involve all countries.

所有国家都得参与

也就是说，我们有责任

You're saying that you must, and you have a duty to help those countries

帮助那些

that cannot afford to deal with the problems of climate change themselves.

无法独自解决

气候问题的国家

You're saying you want a deal

也就是说我们谋求与世界各国的合作

with all the different countries of the world

where we're all bound together

携手共同减排

to cutting carbon emissions in a way that is to the benefit of the whole world.

从而惠及世界

We've never had this before because Kyoto didn't work.

如果能做到－这从来没有过

京都议定书没做到

If you could get a deal at Copenhagen, where people agreed,

如果在哥本哈根会议上

各国能够

A, that there was a long-term target for carbon emission cuts,

在共同减排长期目标

B, that there was short-range targets that had to be met

和短期具体目标上

so this wasn't just abstract;

达成一致

it was people actually making decisions now

这样的决议就有可能

that would make a difference now,

带来变化

and if you could then find a financing mechanism

如果我们能找到财务机制

that meant that the poorest countries that had been hurt

来帮助那些

by our inability to deal with climate change

因为过去很多年里由于

over many, many years and decades

我们的不作为而

are given special help

受牵连的贫困国家

so that they can move to energy-efficient technologies,

从而他们可以转向节能科技

and they are in a position financially

并且能在财务上

长期投资

to be able to afford the long-term investment

来帮助减排

that is associated with cutting carbon emissions,

then you are treating the world equally,

那么这就是对各国的公平对待

因为我们对每一个国家

by giving consideration to every part of the planet

都会考虑他们的需求

and the needs they have.

It doesn't mean that everybody does exactly the same thing,

这并不是说每个人的要求一样

because we've actually got to do more financially

因为我们应该为最贫困的国家

to help the poorest countries,

付出更多

but it does mean there is equal consideration

但这意味着对全世界人民的需求

给予公平的对待

for the needs of citizens in a single planet.

CA: Yes.

And then of course the theory is still that those talks get rent apart

CA：是的。但不可否认

各国为了各自利益

by different countries fighting over their own individual interests.

而撕破脸的忧虑仍然存在

GB: Yes, but I think Europe has got a position,

GB：是的。但我认为

欧盟27国已经

which is 27 countries have already come together.

团结在了一起

I mean, the great difficulty in Europe

最大的困难是

is if you're at a meeting and 27 people speak,

如果欧盟的27个盟国开会

it takes a very, very long time.

很花时间

But we did get an agreement on climate change.

但是我们对气候变化有了共同认识

America has made its first disposition on this

美国也对此首次作出表态

应该感谢奥巴马总统

with the bill that President Obama should be congratulated

为此在国会

for getting through Congress.

作出的努力

Japan has made an announcement.

日本也发表了声明

China and India have signed up to the scientific evidence.

中国和印度在科学证明上签了字

下面我们要做的就是

And now we've got to move them to accept

促进他们采纳长期目标

a long-term target, and then short-term targets.

和短期目标

But more progress has been made, I think, in the last few weeks

过去的几周我们取得了很大成绩

than had been made for some years.

远多去过去几年

And I do believe that there is a strong possibility

我深信如果我们能够

携手努力

that if we work together, we can get that agreement to Copenhagen.

完全有可能达成哥本哈根协议

我自然也提出了相应提案

I certainly have been putting forward proposals

that would have allowed the poorest parts of the world

保证贫困国家的利益

to feel that we have taken into account their specific needs.

在我们的

考虑之内

And we would help them adapt.

我们将帮助他们适应

And we would help them make the transition to a low-carbon economy.

过渡到

低碳经济

I do think a reform of the international institutions is vital to this.

我认为国际机构的变革

是至关重要的一步

When the IMF was created in the 1940s,

20世纪40年代，IMF设立之初

it was created with resources that were five percent or so of the world's GDP.

举全世界GDP百分之五的资源建成

现在的IMF只有百分之一的有限资源

The IMF now has limited resources, one percent.

It can't really make the difference

无法在危机之时

that ought to be made in a period of crisis.

力挽狂澜

So, we've got to rebuild the world institutions.

所有我们要重建世界机构

我们任重道远

And that's a big task:

persuading all the different countries

要说服在这些机构中持有不同投票权的国家

with the different voting shares in these institutions to do so.

是很困难的

There is a story told about the three world leaders

有个故事

说的是当时三位领导人

of the day getting a chance to get some advice from God.

向上帝

寻求建议的事

And the story is told that Bill Clinton went to God

说比尔・克林顿

找上帝

and he asked when there will be successful climate change

问问什么时候才会有

成功的气候变化和低碳经济

and a low-carbon economy.

And God shook his head and said,

上帝摇摇头说

"Not this year, not this decade, perhaps not even in [your] lifetime."

“不在今年，不在这十年间。

也许你这辈子都不一定。”

And Bill Clinton walked away in tears

比尔・克林顿伤心地走了

因为他没能达成他的目标

because he had failed to get what he wanted.

然后是巴罗索

And then the story is that Barroso, the president of the European Commission,

欧盟执委会主席

去找上帝问

went to God and he asked,

"When will we get a recovery of global growth?"

“全球经济什么时候复苏？”

And God said, "Not this year, not in this decade,

上帝说：“不在今年，不在这十年间。

perhaps not in your lifetime."

也许你这辈子都不一定。”

So Barroso walked away crying and in tears.

巴罗索伤心地走了

And then the Secretary-General of the United Nations

然后是

联合国秘书长

came up to speak to God and said,

去找上帝

"When will our international institutions work?"

问”咱们国际机构

什么时候才能有点作用？“

And God cried.

上帝哭了

(Laughter)

（笑声）

It is very important to recognize that this reform of institutions

在对我们可以

共建全球伦理达成共识后

is the next stage after agreeing upon ourselves

下一步就是

国际机构的改革

that there is a clear ethic upon which we can build.

认识到这一点

非常重要

CA: Prime Minister, I think there are many in the audience

CA：首相阁下，我想下面有很多观众

who are truly appreciative of the efforts you made

对您针对我们所处的经济危机

作出的努力是很感动的

in terms of the financial mess we got ourselves into.

And there are certainly many people in the audience

肯定也会有很多观众

who will be cheering you on as you seek to advance this global ethic.

会赞同您提倡的全球伦理

Thank you so much for coming to TED.

非常感谢您的光临

GB: Well, thank you.

GB：也谢谢你

(Applause)

（鼓掌）