Gordon Brown on global ethic vs. national interest

譯者: Wang-Ju Tsai 審譯者: Po-Chih Tsai

Chris Anderson: Thank you so much, Prime Minister,

克利斯.安德森：很感謝您，首相先生，

that was both fascinating and quite inspiring.

剛剛的演講真是引人入勝又發人省思

So, you're calling for a global ethic.

所以，您要倡導全球倫理

Would you describe that as global citizenship?

您會覺得它就是全球公民責任嗎？

Is that an idea that you believe in, and how would you define that?

這是您深信的概念嗎？您要如何定義它呢？

Gordon Brown: It is about global citizenship

布朗：我認爲這就是全球公民的責任。

and recognizing our responsibilities to others.

就是去認清楚我們對他人的責任。

There is so much to do over the next few years

接下來幾年有很多事要做

that is obvious to so many of us

我們都清楚非得要做點甚麼

to build a better world.

來讓世界變得更好。

And there is so much shared sense of what we need to do,

對於我們該做些什麽

大家也都很有共識

that it is vital that we all come together.

而合作是非常重要的。

But we don't necessarily have the means to do so.

但是我們不見得有方法可以做到

So there are challenges to be met.

所以接下來有很多的挑戰。

I believe the concept of global citizenship

我認爲全球公民責任的概念

will simply grow out of people talking to each other across continents.

會隨著洲際間的對話自然產生。

But of course the task is to create the institutions

當然，主要任務是設置

that make that global society work.

有效的全球社會的組織

But I don't think we should underestimate

我也認爲我們不該低估

the extent to which massive changes in technology

科技所帶來的重大改變

make possible the linking up of people across the world.

這使得串連全球的人變得可能。

CA: But people get excited about this idea of global citizenship,

安德森：人們對全球公民的概念很有興趣

but then they get confused a bit again

但同時也會有疑惑

when they start thinking about patriotism,

當他們想到愛國主義

and how to combine these two.

並且還要融合這兩個想法。

I mean, you're elected as Prime Minister

人們選您當英國首相

with a brief to bat for Britain.

您有捍衛英國的責任

How do you reconcile the two things?

您要如何去協調這兩種想法呢？

GB: Well, of course national identity remains important.

布朗：當然，國家認同是重要的。

But it's not at the expense of people accepting their global responsibilities.

但不能因此把全球責任棄之不顧

And I think one of the problems of recession

經濟衰退帶來的問題之一

is that people become more protectionist,

是保護主義的興起

they look in on themselves,

人們只看到自己

they try to protect their own nation,

只會保護自己國家的利益

perhaps at the expense of other nations.

並不惜犧牲他國的利益。

When you actually look at the motor of the world economy,

實際去看看世界經濟的動態

it cannot move forward

少了國與國之間的貿易

unless there is trade between the different countries.

它是無法往前進的。

And any nation that would become protectionist over the next few years

再過幾年，任一保護主義國家

would deprive itself of the chance of getting the benefits

自己也將被摒除在外

of growth in the world economy.

無法分享世界經濟發展的利益。

So, you've got to have a healthy sense of patriotism;

所以，有健康的愛國主義

that's absolutely important.

絕對是重要的

But you've got to realize that this world has changed fundamentally,

但你也要了解這世界已經根本的改變

and the problems we have cannot be solved by one nation and one nation alone.

我們現有的問題

不是單一國家就可以解決

CA: Well, indeed.

安德森：的確，但是當這兩個概念有所衝突

But what do you do when the two come into conflict

而您必需有所抉擇時，您該怎麽做呢？

and you're forced to make a decision

that either is in Britain's interest, or the interest of Britons,

是保護英國的利益

或者說是英國人的利益

or citizens elsewhere in the world?

還是全球其他國民的利益？

GB: Well I think we can persuade people

布朗：我想我們可以説服國民

that what is necessary for Britain's long-term interests,

為了英國長遠的利益

what is necessary for America's long-term interests,

也爲了美國長遠的利益

is proper engagement with the rest of the world,

去適當地與全球其他地區的互動

並採取必要的行動。

and taking the action that is necessary.

有一個關於尼克森的故事

There is a great story, again, told about Richard Nixon.

1958, Ghana becomes independent,

1958年，加納獨立了

so it is just over 50 years ago.

恰好才剛過五十年

Richard Nixon goes to represent the United States government

尼克森副總統代表美國出席

at the celebrations for independence in Ghana.

加納的獨立慶祝活動

And it's one of his first outings as Vice President to an African country.

這是他首次以副總統的身份去非洲國家訪問

He doesn't quite know what to do,

因為不確定該怎麽做，於是他走進人群

so he starts going around the crowd

and starts talking to people

並和人寒暄

and he says to people in this rather unique way,

他用一個獨特的開場白

"How does it feel to be free?"

”自由的感覺怎麽樣？“

And he's going around, "How does it feel to be free?"

邊走邊問”自由的感覺怎麽樣？“

"How does it feel to be free?"

”自由的感覺怎麽樣？“

And then someone says,

結果有個人回答 “我哪知道？我是從阿拉巴馬來的”

"How should I know? I come from Alabama."

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And that was the 1950s.

那是五零年代的事了

Now, what is remarkable

值得注意的是

美國的民權已在六零年代普及

is that civil rights in America were achieved in the 1960s.

But what is equally remarkable

不能忽視的是

is socioeconomic rights in Africa have not moved forward very fast

非洲的社會經濟權

在結束殖民時代後

even since the age of colonialism.

卻沒有向前快速發展。

And yet, America and Africa have got a common interest.

然而，美國和非洲

一直是禍福相依

And we have got to realize that if we don't link up

我們必須知道，如果我們不串起

with those people who are sensible voices and democratic voices in Africa,

非洲人理性和追求民主的聲音

to work together for common causes,

來一起奮鬥

then the danger of Al Qaeda and related groups

那麽基地組織一類的團體

making progress in Africa is very big.

在非洲擴張的機會是很大的。

So, I would say that what seems sometimes

所以我說，我們對非洲

to be altruism, in relation to Africa, or in relation to developing countries,

或其他發展中國家的作爲

有時候像是利他主義

is more than that.

其實更多是從自我利益出發

It is enlightened self-interest for us to work with other countries.

而去跟其他國家合作。

And I would say that national interest

我並認爲，國家的利益

and, if you like, what is the global interest

跟全球的利益

to tackle poverty and climate change

如：對付貧窮和氣候變遷

do, in the long run, come together.

在長期來看，是一致的。

And whatever the short-run price for taking action on climate change

在短期間，為應付氣候變遷

or on security, or taking action to provide opportunities

為安全問題採取行動，或為其他人

提供教育的機會

for people for education,

these are prices that are worth paying

這些付出都是值得的

so that you build a stronger global society

你將建立一個更健全的全球社會

where people feel able to feel comfortable with each other

人們可以互相和平共處

and are able to communicate with each other in such a way

也可以互相溝通

that you can actually build stronger links between different countries.

各國間的關係也更穩固。

CA: I still just want to draw out on this issue.

安德森：這裡是牛津，

哲學思想的實驗地。

So, you're on vacation at a nice beach,

這裡有一個這樣的例子

and word comes through that there's been a massive earthquake

我想更深入了解這個議題

and that there is a tsunami advancing on the beach.

假設您在海灘上度假

One end of the beach, there is a house containing a family of five Nigerians.

發生了一個大地震

And at the other end of the beach there is a single Brit.

大海嘯接著向海灘襲來

海灘的一端有一個房子

You have time to --

(Laughter)

住著一家五口的奈及利亞人。

you have time to alert one house.

在海灘的另一端

What do you do?

只住一個英國人。

(Laughter)

您的時間

GB: Modern communications.

（笑聲）

(Applause)

只夠通知一戶人家。您會怎麽做？

Alert both.

（笑聲）

(Applause)

布朗：現代的通訊

（掌聲）

I do agree that my responsibility

兩家都通知

is first of all to make sure that people in our country are safe.

（掌聲）

And I wouldn't like anything that is said today to suggest

我同意我的首要責任

that I am diminishing the importance of the responsibility

是保障我們國民的安全

that each leader has for their own country.

我今天所說的也絕不是企圖

But I'm trying to suggest that there is a huge opportunity

削弱各個領導人對他們國家

open to us that was never open to us before.

負起責任的重要性。

But the power to communicate across borders

allows us to organize the world in a different way.

我們現在有一個大好機會

眼前是全新的局面。

And I think, look at the tsunami, it's a classic example.

而跨國界溝通的能力

Where was the early warning systems?

讓我們能用新方法來動員這世界。

Where was the world acting together

東亞的大海嘯，是標準的例子

to deal with the problems that they knew arose

from the potential for earthquakes,

那時候有早期預警系統嗎？

as well as the potential for climate change?

世界各國一起合作

And when the world starts to work together,

來應付地震或者是

with better early-warning systems,

you can deal with some of these problems in a better way.

氣候變遷可能引起的後果

以前有這樣的合作嗎？

I just think we're not seeing, at the moment,

當世界各國開始合作

the huge opportunities open to us by the ability of people to cooperate

來準備早期預警系統

這些問題將可以處理得更好。

in a world where either there was isolationism before

只是我們還沒看清

or there was limited alliances based on convenience

擺在我們眼前的大好機會

那就是：藉由人們的合作

which never actually took you to deal with some of the central problems.

才能真的處理到問題的核心

CA: But I think this is the frustration

而這是以前孤立主義

that perhaps a lot of people have, like people in the audience here,

或有限結盟的組織所辦不到的。

where we love the kind of language that you're talking about.

It is inspiring.

安德森：但我覺得這是很多人

A lot of us believe that that has to be the world's future.

包括在場聽衆都有的挫折感

這也是為什麼您的話這麼地鼓舞人心

And yet, when the situation changes,

大部分的人也都相信

you suddenly hear politicians talking as if,

世界的未來就該是這樣。

you know, for example, the life of one American soldier

但是，一旦情況改變

is worth countless numbers of Iraqi civilians.

政治人物又會說另一套

When the pedal hits the metal,

例如說，好像無數伊拉克百姓的命

the idealism can get moved away.

比一個美國大兵的命還不值。

I'm just wondering whether you can see that changing over time,

一旦踢到鐵板

理想主義會很快消逝

whether you see in Britain

that there are changing attitudes,

我想知道，

and that people are actually more supportive

您覺得到現在

of the kind of global ethic that you talk about.

或是在英國裏

GB: I think every religion, every faith,

有看到人們態度的轉變嗎？

and I'm not just talking here to people of faith or religion --

是否有更多人支持您說的全球倫理？

it has this global ethic at the center of its credo.

布朗：我認爲所有的宗教，信念

And whether it's Jewish or whether it's Muslim

不只針對有信教的人

or whether it's Hindu, or whether it's Sikh,

其中心信念

the same global ethic is at the heart of each of these religions.

都有這全球倫理。

無論是猶太教，回教

印度教，或錫克教

So, I think you're dealing with something

that people instinctively see as part of their moral sense.

全球倫理都是

在這些宗教的中心。

So you're building on something that is not pure self-interest.

所以我們談的概念

本來就是

You're building on people's ideas and values --

人們道德感的一部分。

that perhaps they're candles that burn very dimly on certain occasions.

所以你經營的基礎不是自利

是人們的理想和價值觀

But it is a set of values that cannot, in my view, be extinguished.

而這就像是在角落

微微發光的蠟燭

Then the question is,

how do you make that change happen?

但這些信念是永遠不會熄滅的。

How do you persuade people that it is in their interest

接下來的問題是

to build strong --

你如何使這個改變發生？

After the Second World War,

we built institutions, the United Nations,

你如何說服人們

the IMF, the World Bank,

這是為了他們自身的利益

the World Trade Organization, the Marshall Plan.

來建立...二次世界大戰後

There was a period in which people talked about an act of creation,

成立了一些國際組織，如聯合國

because these institutions were so new.

國際貨幣組織，世界銀行

國際貿易組織，馬歇爾計劃

But they are now out of date. They don't deal with the problems.

那時大家還會期待新的作為

You can't deal with the environmental problem

through existing institutions.

因爲這些組織還很新。

You can't deal with the security problem in the way that you need to.

但現在他們已經過時了。無法應付問題

如我所說的，現存的組織

You can't deal with the economic and financial problem.

已無法應付環境的問題。

So we have got to rebuild our global institutions,

安全的問題也無法應付

build them in a way that is suitable to the challenges of this time.

也無法應付經濟和財政的問題。

And I believe that if you look at the biggest challenge we face,

所以我們必須重建全球的組織，

it is to persuade people to have the confidence

使他們能面對現在的挑戰

that we can build a truly global society

看看我們現在最大的挑戰

with the institutions that are founded on these rules.

其實是使人們去相信

So, I come back to my initial point.

以這些信念建立的組織

Sometimes you think things are impossible.

Nobody would have said 50 years ago

會產生一個真正的全球社會。

that apartheid would have gone in 1990,

所以，回到我的出發點

or that the Berlin wall would have fallen at the turn of the '80s and '90s,

總有人說這是辦不到的

50年以前，沒有人會相信

or that polio could be eradicated,

南非的隔離主義會在1990年結束

or perhaps 60 years ago,

或是柏林圍牆

nobody would have said a man could gone to the Moon.

會在八零年代末倒下

All these things have happened.

By tackling the impossible, you make the impossible possible.

小兒麻痹可以根絕。或是六十年前

CA: And we have had a speaker who said that very thing,

沒有人會說人類可以飛上月球

但這些事都發生了。

and swallowed a sword right after that, which was quite dramatic.

只要開始面對不可能的事，不可能也會變可能。

(Laughter)

安德森：我們之前有個演講者也這麽說

GB: Followed my sword and swallow.

CA: But, surely a true global ethic is for someone to say,

說完了還表演吞劍。十分有戲劇性。

（笑聲）

接下來該我吞劍了

"I believe that the life of every human on the planet

安德森：然而，真正的全球倫理

is worth the same, equal consideration,

是人們可以說

regardless of nationality and religion."

“我相信這世上的每個人

And you have politicians who have --

不論他的國籍和宗教

you're elected.

In a way, you can't say that.

都有同樣的價值，得到同等的對待“

Even if, as a human being, you believe that,

you can't say that.

身為政治人物，您是由選民選出的

You're elected for Britain's interests.

某種意義上，您不能這麽說

GB: We have a responsibility to protect.

即使，身爲人類，您認同這句話

I mean look, 1918, the Treaty of Versailles,

您還是不能這麽說。人們選您是爲了保衛英國的利益。

and all the treaties before that,

布朗：我們有責任去保護

the Treaty of Westphalia and everything else,

were about protecting the sovereign right of countries

看，1918年的凡爾賽條約

to do what they want.

Since then, the world has moved forward,

和之前所有的條約，威斯特伐利亞條約等

partly as a result of what happened with the Holocaust,

都只是為了保全單一國家主權

and people's concern about the rights of individuals

使他們爲所欲爲。

within territories where they need protection,

在那以後，世界進步了

部分是因爲發生了猶太人大屠殺

partly because of what we saw in Rwanda,

人們開始關心他國領土上

partly because of what we saw in Bosnia.

未受保障的人的權益，

The idea of the responsibility to protect

all individuals who are in situations where they are at humanitarian risk

部分是因爲看到了盧安達大屠殺

還有波士尼亞内戰的慘劇。

is now being established as a principle which governs the world.

“有責任去保護

So, while I can't automatically say

所有處在人道災難的

情況下的每一個人”

that Britain will rush to the aid of any citizen of any country, in danger,

已經是管理世界的主流原則之一。

所以，雖然我不能保證

I can say that Britain is in a position

英國將竭力協助

where we're working with other countries

所有處於危難的國家與人民

so that this idea that you have a responsibility

to protect people who are victims of either genocide or humanitarian attack,

但我相信英國已經準備好

跟其他國家一起合作

is something that is accepted by the whole world.

這就是 “有責任去保護

受到種族屠殺或人道災難

Now, in the end, that can only be achieved

if your international institutions work well enough to be able to do so.

的人民” 的概念。

And that comes back to what the future role of the United Nations,

是全球都能接受的概念。

而這只有在國際組織

and what it can do, actually is.

發揮應有效用的時候

But, the responsibility to protect is a new idea that is, in a sense,

才能達到的。

這囘到聯合國的未來角色

taken over from the idea of self-determination

這是聯合國確實能做到的。

as the principle governing the international community.

但是“去保護的責任”

CA: Can you picture, in our lifetimes,

是一個新的概念

是從管理國際社群的

a politician ever going out on a platform

"民主自決" 的概念延伸而來的。

of the kind of full-form global ethic, global citizenship?

安德森：您能想見，在我們這一代

政治人物能去實現

And basically saying, "I believe that all people across the planet

完整的全球倫理，或全球公民權嗎？

have equal consideration,

and if in power we will act in that way.

而且承諾 “我相信全球的人

And we believe that the people of this country

are also now global citizens and will support that ethic."

都一律平等，一旦掌權，

GB: Is that not what we're doing in the debate about climate change?

我也將平等對待所有人”

“我相信我的國民也是全球公民

We're saying that you cannot solve

而且也將支持全球倫理。”

the problem of climate change in one country;

布朗：針對氣候變遷對策的辯論

you've got to involve all countries.

不就是全球倫理的實現嗎？

You're saying that you must, and you have a duty to help those countries

我們強調，靠單一國家的力量是沒用的

that cannot afford to deal with the problems of climate change themselves.

你必須動員所有的國家。

大家必須要，並且有責任去幫助

You're saying you want a deal

with all the different countries of the world

那些無力面對

where we're all bound together

氣候變遷的國家。

to cutting carbon emissions in a way that is to the benefit of the whole world.

我們要的是一個能串連起所有的國家

We've never had this before because Kyoto didn't work.

大家一起來減碳，

並使大家都能受益的協議。

If you could get a deal at Copenhagen, where people agreed,

這是前所未有的，因為京都議定書並不成功

A, that there was a long-term target for carbon emission cuts,

B, that there was short-range targets that had to be met

如果能在哥本哈根達成協議

so this wasn't just abstract;

如果大家能同意以下兩點

it was people actually making decisions now

A. 一個長程的減碳目標

that would make a difference now,

B. 階段性的短程的減碳目標

and if you could then find a financing mechanism

讓協議不是空談；

that meant that the poorest countries that had been hurt

這才是人們在做決定

by our inability to deal with climate change

在有所作爲。

over many, many years and decades

如果能找到一個補貼機制

are given special help

在將來的數十年裏補貼

so that they can move to energy-efficient technologies,

因無法解決氣候變遷的問題

and they are in a position financially

而受害的貧窮國家

能獲得幫助而轉向

to be able to afford the long-term investment

that is associated with cutting carbon emissions,

使用節能科技

then you are treating the world equally,

並使得他們有足夠的錢

在減碳科技上

by giving consideration to every part of the planet

作長期的投資。

and the needs they have.

這才是平等地對待這個世界

It doesn't mean that everybody does exactly the same thing,

because we've actually got to do more financially

平等地考慮到地球的每一角落

to help the poorest countries,

和個別的需求。

but it does mean there is equal consideration

這不表示大家該做同樣的事：

for the needs of citizens in a single planet.

在財務上我們的確該多盡一些力

CA: Yes.

去幫助貧窮國家。而是真正表示

And then of course the theory is still that those talks get rent apart

地球上的每一個公民的需求

by different countries fighting over their own individual interests.

都獲得了平等的關注。

GB: Yes, but I think Europe has got a position,

安德森：理論上而言

各國還是會為爭奪自己的權益

which is 27 countries have already come together.

使得這些協議分崩離析。

I mean, the great difficulty in Europe

布朗：但是我想在歐洲

is if you're at a meeting and 27 people speak,

27國已經達成共識。

it takes a very, very long time.

But we did get an agreement on climate change.

歐洲開會最大的困難是

27個代表要輪流發言

America has made its first disposition on this

那很花時間。

with the bill that President Obama should be congratulated

但氣候政策上我們已有了共識。

for getting through Congress.

美國在這件事上也有所表示

Japan has made an announcement.

China and India have signed up to the scientific evidence.

要恭喜歐巴馬總統使這個法案

And now we've got to move them to accept

能在國會裏通過。

日本也作出了聲明。

a long-term target, and then short-term targets.

中國和印度也承認其科學證據。

But more progress has been made, I think, in the last few weeks

現在要促使他們接受

than had been made for some years.

And I do believe that there is a strong possibility

一個長期目標以及階段性的短期目標。

that if we work together, we can get that agreement to Copenhagen.

過去幾周的進步確實比

過去幾年都還多。

I certainly have been putting forward proposals

我真的相信

that would have allowed the poorest parts of the world

如果大家合作

在哥本哈根的協議就很可能達成。

to feel that we have taken into account their specific needs.

我也提出了一些建議

And we would help them adapt.

能讓較貧困的國家感受到

And we would help them make the transition to a low-carbon economy.

他們的特殊需求

I do think a reform of the international institutions is vital to this.

也被列入考量。

我們會幫助他們適應

When the IMF was created in the 1940s,

並協助他們轉化到低碳經濟。

it was created with resources that were five percent or so of the world's GDP.

對此，我認爲國際組織的改革是必須的。

The IMF now has limited resources, one percent.

當國際貨幣組織在四零年代創立時

It can't really make the difference

that ought to be made in a period of crisis.

它握有全球生産總值的百分之五的資源

So, we've got to rebuild the world institutions.

現在只剩下百分之一。

And that's a big task:

persuading all the different countries

這對需要大破大立的危機時期是不夠的。

with the different voting shares in these institutions to do so.

所以我們必須重建國際組織

There is a story told about the three world leaders

這會是個艱鉅的任務: 去說服

所有組織內的國家

of the day getting a chance to get some advice from God.

同意這麼作。

有一個故事說，世界三大領導人

And the story is told that Bill Clinton went to God

某天他們向上帝尋求建言

and he asked when there will be successful climate change

柯林頓走到上帝的面前

and a low-carbon economy.

And God shook his head and said,

他問上帝什麽時候會有

"Not this year, not this decade, perhaps not even in [your] lifetime."

成功的氣候政策和低碳經濟

And Bill Clinton walked away in tears

上帝搖了搖頭，“今年不會，

because he had failed to get what he wanted.

十年内也不會，你這輩子大概是看不到了。”

And then the story is that Barroso, the president of the European Commission,

柯林頓於是含著淚離開

went to God and he asked,

"When will we get a recovery of global growth?"

因爲這不是他期盼的答案。

接下來歐盟主席巴羅佐

And God said, "Not this year, not in this decade,

也來到上帝面前問到

perhaps not in your lifetime."

“全球經濟什麽時候才能變好？”

So Barroso walked away crying and in tears.

And then the Secretary-General of the United Nations

上帝說 “今年不會，十年内也不會

你這輩子大概是看不到了。”

於是巴羅佐也哭著離開。

came up to speak to God and said,

"When will our international institutions work?"

聯合國的秘書長

And God cried.

(Laughter)

也來到上帝面前問

“什麼時候我們這些國際組織才會起作用？”

It is very important to recognize that this reform of institutions

然後上帝哭了。

（笑聲）

is the next stage after agreeing upon ourselves

很重要的一點是，我們要去確認

that there is a clear ethic upon which we can build.

這個國際組織的改革

CA: Prime Minister, I think there are many in the audience

的第一步

who are truly appreciative of the efforts you made

是建立在一個

大家都同意且清楚的全球倫理之上。

in terms of the financial mess we got ourselves into.

And there are certainly many people in the audience

安德森：首相先生，我想在場的聼眾們

很多人都很感謝您

who will be cheering you on as you seek to advance this global ethic.

對財政危機所做出的貢獻。

Thank you so much for coming to TED.

對於您提倡的全球倫理的議題

GB: Well, thank you.

(Applause)

聽衆裏的很多人也會為您加油的

謝謝您來到TED

布朗：謝謝。

（掌聲）