The genius puppetry behind War Horse | Handspring Puppet Company

翻译人员: Xiaoqiao Xie 校对人员: Bear Jin

Adrian Kohler: Well, we're here today

艾德里安 科勒：我们今天来

to talk about the evolution of a puppet horse.

是想讲讲木偶战马的进化

Basil Jones: But actually we're going to start this evolution

贝索 琼斯：事实上我们想以木偶鬣狗

with a hyena.

来开篇

AK: The ancestor of the horse.

艾德里安 科勒：也就是木偶战马的先祖

Okay, we'll do something with it.

现在我们要表演了

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Hahahaha.

哈哈

The hyena is the ancestor of the horse

这个木偶鬣狗是木偶战马的先祖

because it was part of a production

因为它是整个制作的一部分

called "Faustus in Africa,"

叫做“非洲的浮士德”

a Handspring Production from 1995,

是我们回春手公司1995年的作品

where it had to play draughts with Helen of Troy.

用来在海伦特洛伊一剧中拖载重物

This production was directed

这个作品是由一个

by South African artist and theater director,

南非的艺术家和剧场导演来指导的

William Kentridge.

威廉 肯持觉

So it needed a very articulate front paw.

所以这个鬣狗需要有非常灵敏的前爪

But, like all puppets, it has other attributes.

但是就像所有的木偶一样，它也有其他的特性

BJ: One of them is breath,

贝索 琼斯：其中之一就是呼吸

and it kind of breathes.

它能呼吸

AK: Haa haa haaa.

艾德里安 科勒：（呼吸声）

BJ: Breath is really important for us.

贝索 琼斯：呼吸对我们是很重要的

It's the kind of original movement

在舞台上对木偶来说

for any puppet for us onstage.

这是一个非常基本的动作

It's the thing that distinguishes the puppet --

这是区分木偶-

AK: Oops.

艾德里安 科勒：不好！

BJ: From an actor.

贝索 琼斯：和演员的基本原则

Puppets always have to try to be alive.

木偶总是试图活过来的

It's their kind of ur-story onstage,

这是它们台上的挣扎

that desperation to live.

它们对生命的渴望

AK: Yeah, it's basically a dead object, as you can see,

艾德里安 科勒：这是个没有生命的物体，像大家看到的

and it only lives

它只有在你使它活过来的时候

because you make it.

才有生命

An actor struggles to die onstage,

演员试图在台上演死去

but a puppet has to struggle to live.

木偶在台上试图活过来

And in a way that's a metaphor for life.

这也是一种生命的隐喻

BJ: So every moment it's on the stage, it's making the struggle.

贝索 琼斯：所以每时每刻在舞台上，它都会试着试图活下去。

So we call this

我们管它叫做

a piece of emotional engineering

一个情感工程

that uses up-to-the-minute

它使用最新的

17th century technology --

十七世纪的技术-

(Laughter)

（笑声）

to turn nouns

来把名词

into verbs.

变成动词

AK: Well actually I prefer to say

艾德里安 科勒：其实我想说

that it's an object

这是个物体

constructed out of wood and cloth

由木头和布做的

with movement built into it

当我们融入动作

to persuade you to believe that it has life.

就能诱使你相信它是有生命的

BJ: Okay so.

贝索 琼斯：好的

AK: It has ears that move passively

艾德里安 科勒：当它的头转的时候

when the head goes.

耳朵能跟着移动

BJ: And it has these bulkheads

贝索 琼斯：它有这些隔板

made out of plywood,

都是压合板作的

covered with fabric --

覆上布料-

curiously similar, in fact,

事实上和艾德里安的父亲

to the plywood canoes

还是个孩童时

that Adrian's father used to make

在工作间里做的

when he was a boy in their workshop.

压板独木舟出奇地相似

AK: In Port Elizabeth, the village outside Port Elizabeth in South Africa.

艾德里安 科勒：在伊丽莎白港，港外的小村庄里

BJ: His mother was a puppeteer.

贝索 琼斯：他的妈妈是一个木偶剧演员

And when we met at art school

我们在1971年

and fell in love

在艺术学院相识

in 1971,

相爱

I hated puppets.

我当时讨厌木偶

I really thought they were so beneath me.

总觉得它们很低贱

I wanted to become an avant-garde artist --

我想成为特别前卫的艺术家-

and Punch and Judy was certainly not where I wanted to go.

《庞奇和朱迪》可我绝对不想做的

And, in fact, it took about 10 years

事实上，我花了十年

to discover

来发掘

the Bambara Bamana puppets of Mali in West Africa,

非洲西部的马里的特有木偶

where there's a fabulous tradition of puppetry,

那里有令人惊叹的木偶制作传统

to learn a renewed, or a new, respect

从而领会到了更新的，或者说是全新的

for this art form.

对于木偶艺术的崇敬

AK: So in 1981, I persuaded Basil and some friends of mine

艾德里安 科勒：在1981年，我劝服贝索和我的一些朋友

to form a puppet company.

成立了一个木偶公司

And 20 years later, miraculously,

二十年后，出乎意料地

we collaborated with a company from Mali,

我们和马里的公司合作

the Sogolon Marionette Troupe of Bamako,

巴马口的艺术团

where we made a piece about a tall giraffe.

制作出了一个长颈鹿木偶

It was just called "Tall Horse," which was a life-sized giraffe.

名字叫做“高马”的，是一个真长颈鹿大小的木偶

BJ: And here again, you see the same structure.

贝索 琼斯：这里，你可以看到同样的结构

The bulkheads have now turned into hoops of cane,

但换做用藤蔓做主框架，

but it's ultimately the same structure.

但是差不多是一样的结构

It's got two people inside it on stilts,

它需要在里面藏两个人，踩着高跷

which give them the height,

把他们拔高

and somebody in the front

一个人在前面

who's using a kind of steering wheel to move that head.

用方向盘来移动头部

AK: The person in the hind legs

艾德里安 科勒：一个人在后腿这里

is also controlling the tail, a bit like the hyena --

同时掌控尾巴，就像是鬣狗一样-

same mechanism, just a bit bigger.

同样的工艺`，只是更大些

And he's controlling the ear movement.

他还能掌握耳朵的动作

BJ: So this production

贝索 琼斯：这个制作

was seen by Tom Morris

被在伦敦的国家剧团

of the National Theatre in London.

的汤姆 摩瑞斯看到了

And just around that time,

差不多也是这个时候

his mother had said,

他的母亲说：

"Have you seen this book by Michael Morpurgo

“你有没有看过麦克 莫普构的书

called 'War Horse'?"

叫做“战马”的？”

AK: It's about a boy who falls in love with a horse.

艾德里安 科勒：这是个关于一个男孩爱上一匹马的故事

The horse is sold to the First World War,

这匹马被卖到去参加一次世界大战

and he joins up to find his horse.

这个男孩就参了军去找到了他的马

BJ: So Tom gave us a call and said,

贝索 琼斯：这样汤姆就给我们打了个电话说

"Do you think you could make us a horse

“你觉得你能不能给我们作匹马

for a show to happen at the National Theatre?"

在国家剧院演戏用？”

AK: It seemed a lovely idea.

艾德里安 科勒：这主意听起来妙极了

BJ: But it had to ride. It had to have a rider.

贝索 琼斯：但是这马得能骑，它得有个骑士

AK: It had to have a rider,

艾德里安 科勒：不错，它得有个骑士

and it had to participate in cavalry charges.

它还得加入骑兵队

(Laughter)

（笑声）

A play about early 20th century plowing technology

对于伦敦的国家剧院来说

and cavalry charges

一个二十世纪初的耕技术

was a little bit of a challenge for the accounting department

和骑兵团的费用

at the National Theatre in London.

是有点超支了

But they agreed to go along with it for a while.

但是他们同意看看发展再说

So we began with a test.

所以们就开始试验了

BJ: This is Adrian and Thys Stander,

贝索 琼斯：这是艾德里安和塞斯 斯丹德

who went on to actually design the cane system for the horse,

他们是马的藤圈系统的设计者

and our next-door neighbor Katherine,

我们的邻居卡瑟琳

riding on a ladder.

在梯子上的

The weight is really difficult when it's up above your head.

这样的重量在悬在头顶的时候是非常吃重的

AK: And once we put Katherine

艾德里安 科勒：一旦我们逼着卡瑟琳

through that particular brand of hell,

经历了这个特别的“炼狱”

we knew that we might be able to make a horse, which could be ridden.

我们就意识到我们可能能够作出一个能被骑的马来

So we made a model.

所以我们做了个模型

This is a cardboard model,

是个纸板模型

a little bit smaller than the hyena.

比鬣狗稍小一点

You'll notice that the legs are plywood legs

你能看到这些腿都是压合板的

and the canoe structure is still there.

也使用了独木舟式的结构

BJ: And the two manipulators are inside.

贝索 琼斯：两个操纵者在里面

But we didn't realize at the time

当时我们没有意识到

that we actually needed a third manipulator,

我们其实需要第三个操纵者

because we couldn't manipulate the neck

因为我们不能从里面

from inside

控制脖子的运动

and walk the horse at the same time.

同时也让马行走

AK: We started work on the prototype

艾德里安 科勒：在设计模型通过后，

after the model was approved,

我们开始作雏形

and the prototype took a bit longer

制作雏形很费了些时间

than we anticipated.

比我们想象中长

We had to throw out the plywood legs and make new cane ones.

我们必须放弃原来的压合板马腿，改用藤制的

And we had a crate built for it.

我们还得给雏形做个大箱子

It had to be shipped to London.

它得被运往伦敦

We were going to test-drive it on the street outside of our house in Cape Town,

我们原本想在我们克珀城外的道路上试跑

and it got to midnight and we hadn't done that yet.

但是一直忙到半夜我们也没顾得上试跑一回

BJ: So we got a camera,

贝索 琼斯：我们拿了照像机

and we posed the puppet

把木偶马摆出

in various galloping stances.

奔腾的立像（大照特照）

And we sent it off

然后把照片都

to the National Theatre,

寄到国家剧院

hoping that they believed

希望他们能一见之下

that we created something that worked.

就相信我们真的是造出了能动的东西

(Laughter)

（笑声）

AK: A month later, we were there in London

艾德里安 科勒：一个月后，我们在伦敦

with this big box and a studio full of people about to work with us.

带着这个大盒子，和一整个剧院的人等着和我们合作呢

BJ: About 40 people.

贝索 琼斯：总共四十个人

AK: We were terrified.

艾德里安 科勒：我们可害怕了

We opened the lid, we took the horse out,

我们打开盖子，把马拿出来

and it did work; it walked and it was able to be ridden.

它居然真的能动，能走能骑

Here I have an 18-second clip

这里我有一个十八秒钟的录像

of the very first walk of the prototype.

是这个雏形第一次走路的录像

This is in the National Theatre studio,

这是国家剧院的剧场

the place where they cook new ideas.

人们酝酿新题材的地方

It had by no means got the green light yet.

当时我们还没有过关呢

The choreographer, Toby Sedgwick,

舞蹈指导托比 萨剧维克

invented a beautiful sequence

设计了一系列优美的动作

where the baby horse,

这个小马

which was made out of sticks and bits of twigs,

整个由木签和细棍做成

grew up into the big horse.

慢慢长大变成壮年的马

And Nick Starr, the director of the National Theatre,

尼克 斯达，国家剧院的导演

saw that particular moment, he was standing next to me -- he nearly wet himself.

看到了这个片段-他当时站在我身边-他差点尿了裤子

And so the show was given the green light.

就这样这个表演就通过了

And we went back to Cape Town and redesigned the horse completely.

我们回到克珀城，重新设计了整匹马。

Here is the plan.

现在说说我们的计划

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And here is our factory in Cape Town

这是克珀城我们的工厂

where we make horses.

我们在那里造马

You can see quite a lot of skeletons in the background there.

你可以看到背景中很多骨架

The horses are completely handmade.

这些马都是手工制作的

There is very little 20th century technology in them.

二十世纪的科技含量很少

We used a bit of laser cutting on the plywood

我们用激光切割压合板

and some of the aluminum pieces.

和一些铝片

But because they have to be light and flexible,

因为这些马必须要很轻，可塑性强

and each one of them is different,

每匹马都不完全一样

they can't be mass-produced, unfortunately.

很不幸，它们不能被批量生产出来

So here are some half-finished horses

这里是一些半成品

ready to be worked in London.

正在伦敦加工

And now we would like to introduce you

现在我们想为大家介绍

to Joey.

乔伊

Joey boy, you there?

乔伊，你在哪里？

Joey.

乔伊

(Applause)

（掌声）

(Applause)

（掌声）

Joey.

乔伊

Joey, come here.

乔伊，到这里来

No, no, I haven't got it.

我这里没有（吃的）

He's got it; it's in his pocket.

他口袋里有

BJ: Joey.

贝索 琼斯：乔伊

AK: Joey, Joey, Joey, Joey.

艾德里安 科勒：乔伊乔伊乔伊乔伊

Come here. Stand here where people can see you.

来这里，站在这里，大家都能看见你

Move around. Come on.

转一圈，来吧

I'd just like to describe --

我想和大家描述一下-

I won't talk too loud. He might get irritated.

我会轻轻地讲，要不乔伊该发脾气了

Here, Craig is working the head.

这里， 克莱格在控制马的头

He has bicycle brake cables

他用的是自行车的闸线

going down to the head control in his hand.

每条都汇集到他手里的头部的控制中心

Each one of them

每条线

operates either an ear, separately,

分别管一个耳朵

or the head, up and down.

或者是头部上下动

But he also controls the head directly

他也用他的手直接

by using his hand.

控制整个头部

The ears are obviously

耳朵显然是

a very important emotional indicator of the horse.

对展示了马的表情非常重要的

When they point right back,

当耳朵向后指

the horse is fearful or angry,

说明马不是害怕就是愤怒

depending upon what's going on in front of him, around him.

取决于马的面前，或者周围有什么

Or, when he's more relaxed, the head comes down

或者当马放松的时候，头会垂下来

and the ears listen, either side.

耳朵会听，指向两边

Horses' hearing is very important.

马的听觉十分常重要的

It's almost more important than their eyesight.

几乎比它们的视觉更重要

Over here,

大家看这里

Tommy's got what you call the heart position.

汤姆掌握了所谓的心脏部位

He's working the leg.

他驱使马的腿

You see the string tendon from the hyena,

请看这里的弦腱

the hyena's front leg,

像在鬣狗的前腿里一样

automatically pulls the hoop up.

自动把环拉起来

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Horses are so unpredictable.

马是很不好预测的

(Laughter)

（笑声）

The way a hoof comes up with a horse

马扬前蹄

immediately gives you the feeling

马上就给你一种

that it's a convincing horse action.

真的马的动作的感觉

The hind legs have got the same action.

后腿也有相似的动作

BJ: And Mikey also has,

贝索 琼斯：迈克还有

in his fingers,

在他的手指里

the ability to move the tail

控制马尾巴的能力

from left to right,

能让尾巴左右摆

and up and down with the other hand.

另一只手能控制尾巴上下动

And together, there's quite a complex possibility

合在一起，带给尾巴的表情

of tail expression.

很复杂的组合

AK: You want to say something about the breathing?

艾德里安 科勒：你想说说关于呼吸的部分么？

BJ: We had a big challenge with breathing.

贝索 琼斯：我们在呼吸的模拟上撞了南墙

Adrian thought

艾德里安以为

that he was going to have to split the chest of the puppet in two

他必须要把木偶的胸部剖成两半

and make it breathe like that --

才能做出呼吸-

because that's how a horse would breathe, with an expanded chest.

因为这是真的马呼吸的样子，胸部扩张

But we realized

但是我们发现

that, if that were to be happening,

如果这样做

you wouldn't, as an audience, see the breath.

作为观众的你们是看不到的

So he made a channel in here,

所以他在这里做了个通道

and the chest moves up and down in that channel.

这样胸腔就在通道里上下动

So it's anti-naturalistic really, the up and down movement,

这个和自然的动作是相悖的，上下动

but it feels like breath.

但是看起来更像呼吸

And it's very, very simple

所以就非常简单就解决了

because all that happens

只需要表演者

is that the puppeteer breathes with his knees.

的膝盖运动，马就呼吸了

AK: Other emotional stuff.

艾德里安 科勒：另一个表情

If I were to touch the horse here

如果我在马这里按下去

on his skin,

在它的皮肤上

the heart puppeteer can shake the body from inside

核心的表演者能够从身体里面摇动

and get the skin to quiver.

使整个皮肤抖动

You'll notice, of course,

你能看到，当然了

that the puppet is made out of cane lines.

这个木偶是用藤线作的

And I would like you to believe that it was an aesthetic choice,

我希望你理解这是个审美的选择

that I was making a three-dimensional drawing of a horse

我在画这个马的三维立体图的时候选择的

that somehow moves in space.

为了能让它在空中腾跃

But of course, it was the cane is light,

当然了，这里用的藤线很轻

the cane is flexible, the cane is durable

也很有弹性，很经用

and the cane is moldable.

藤线的可塑性也很强

And so it was a very practical reason why it was made of cane.

选用藤线还有一个很实际的原因

The skin itself

就是这块皮肤自己

is made out of a see-through nylon mesh,

是用透明的尼龙网作的

which, if the lighting designer

如果灯光师

wants the horse to almost disappear,

想让这个马在舞坛上消失

she can light the background

她可以在背景打灯

and the horse becomes ghostlike.

马就好像是幽灵一样

You see the skeletal structure of it.

你只能看见马的骨骼

Or if you light it from above, it becomes more solid.

如果你从下面打灯，它就变得更实际一些

Again, that was a practical consideration.

所以说这是个实际考虑

The guys inside the horse have to be able to see out.

马里面的表演者必须能够看得见外面

They have to be able to act

他们需要及时作出反应

along with their fellow actors in the production.

和表演中的其他的演员演对手

And it's very much an in-the-moment activity that they're engaged in.

每时每刻他们都要能够跟得上

It's three heads making one character.

这三个臭皮匠顶个诸葛亮啊

But now we would like you to put Joey through some paces.

现在我想让你们让乔伊跑起来

And plant.

现在站住

(Whinny)

（马嘶声）

Thank you.

谢谢你们

And now just --

现在-

(Applause)

（掌声）

All the way from sunny California

从加州的阳光海岸远道而来的

we have Zem Joaquin

泽姆 乔安坤

who's going to ride the horse for us.

将要为我们表演骑马

(Applause)

（掌声）

(Applause)

（掌声）

(Music)

（音乐）

So we would like to stress

我们想强调的是

that the performance you see in the horse

你现在看到的骑马表演

is three guys

是三个人的协作

who have studied horse behavior incredibly thoroughly.

每个人都仔细研究了马的行为

BJ: Not being able to talk to one another

贝索 琼斯他们在台上时

while they're onstage

是不能够互相交谈的

because they're mic'd.

因为他们都有麦克风

The sound that that very large chest makes, of the horse --

这里的音效，马的嘶鸣-

the whinnying and the nickering and everything --

轻声嘶鸣和大声嘶吼等等-

that starts usually with one performer,

都是由一个表演者发起的

carries on with a second person

然后第二个人接上去

and ends with a third.

第三个人结束

AK: Mikey Brett from Leicestershire.

艾德里安 科勒：迈克 伯瑞特，来自莱斯特

(Applause)

（掌声）

Mikey Brett, Craig, Leo,

迈克 伯瑞特，克莱格，里奥，

Zem Joaquin and Basil and me.

泽姆 乔安坤， 贝索和我自己

(Applause)

（掌声）

Thank you. Thank you.

谢谢，谢谢大家

(Applause)

（掌声）