Tom Shannon: The painter and the pendulum

翻译人员: Cherie Yip 校对人员: Diming Yu

John Hockenberry: It's great to be here with you, Tom.

John Hockenberry:很高兴见到你，Tom.

And I want to start with a question

我想先问一个问题

that has just been consuming me

从我熟悉你的作品开始

since I first became familiar with your work.

就一直让我着迷的问题。

In you work there's always this kind of hybrid quality

自然的力量和创造力总是

of a natural force

以某种方式混在一起

in some sort of interplay with creative force.

出现在你的作品里。

Are they ever in equilibrium

你觉得在你的作品里，

in the way that you see your work?

它们是平衡的吗？

Tom Shannon: Yeah, the subject matter that I'm looking for,

Tom Shannon:通常我寻找的主要物质

it's usually to solve a question.

都是可以解决问题的。

I had the question popped into my head:

我突然想起有个问题，

What does the cone that connects the sun and the Earth look like

如果能把太阳和地球两个球体连起来，

if you could connect the two spheres?

那么中间那个圆锥体会是怎么样的呢？

And in proportion, what would the size of the sphere

这个椎体的尺寸，长度

and the length, and what would the taper be to the Earth?

和锥尖和地球有着怎样的比例关系呢？

And so I went about and made that sculpture,

所以我着手解决它，并做了这个用

turning it out of solid bronze.

铜铸的模型。

And I did one that was about 35 feet long.

我做了一个大概是35尺长的。

The sun end was about four inches in diameter,

于是太阳端的直径大概是四寸，

and then it tapered over about 35 feet

高是35尺，

to about a millimeter at the Earth end.

地球端的直径是大概是一毫米。

And so for me, it was really exciting

所以，对于我来说，就算只是看看它

just to see what it looks like

到底是怎样的都会十分令人兴奋。

if you could step outside and into a larger context,

如果你可以踏出外面，走进一个更大的关系网中，

as though you were an astronaut,

就好像你成为了一名宇航员一样，

and see these two things as an object,

并把两个物体看做一个物体，

because they are so intimately bound,

因为他们是如此密切的相关。

and one is meaningless without the other.

任何一个物体如果缺少另一方的存在都会变得毫无意义。

JH: Is there a relief

JH:在与这些力量打交道的时候，

in playing with these forces?

您是否曾有过一个信念呢？

And I'm wondering how much of a sense of discovery there is

同时，我正思考说与这些力量打交道时，

in playing with these forces.

发现新事物的直觉在其中占多少比重呢？

TS: Well, like the magnetically levitated objects --

TS:其实，好像磁悬浮物体一样，

like that silver one there,

比如说：那里那银做的作品。

that was the result

这是我经过上百次对

of hundreds of experiments with magnets,

磁力进行实验的结果，

trying to find a way to make something float

我尝试找到一种可以让物体悬浮，

with the least possible connection to the ground.

并跟地面的接触最小化的方法。

So I got it down to just one tether

所以我最后只用一根绳子

to be able to support that.

拴住它作为支撑。

JH: Now is this electromagnetic here, or are these static?

JH：现在是用电磁力吧，那这作品是永久性的吗？

TS: Those are permanent magnets, yeah.

TS：是的，那些是永久磁铁。

JH: Because if the power went out, there would just be a big noise.

JH：因为如果打开开关， 会有很大噪音。

TS: Yeah.

TS:嗯，的确。

It's really unsatisfactory having plug-in art.

有意见要插电的艺术品的确不方便。

JH: I agree.

JH:我同意。

TS: The magnetic works

TS：磁铁的工作

are a combination of gravity and magnetism,

需要结合重力和磁性，

so it's a kind of mixture of these ambient forces

所以它混合了很多这些

that influence everything.

对周围物体有影响的力量。

The sun has a tremendous field

太阳有很多能量是

that extends way beyond the planets

发送到行星以外的地方。

and the Earth's magnetic field protects us from the sun.

而地球的磁场保护我们免受太阳伤害。

So there's this huge

所以磁性在宇宙

invisible shape structures

中有了这巨大的，

that magnetism takes in the universe.

不可见的性质。

But with the pendulum,

但是，通过钟摆，

it allows me to manifest

我可以明白这些

these invisible forces

让磁铁悬浮的，

that are holding the magnets up.

隐形的力量。

My sculptures

我的雕塑通常

are normally very simplified.

都十分简约。

I try to refine them down

我尝试把它们提炼出

to very simple forms.

一种简单的模式。

But the paintings become very complex,

但说到绘画的时候就十分复杂了，

because I think the fields

因为那些我认为对

that are supporting them,

作品有启发性的场

they're billowing, and they're interpenetrating,

各自都在躁动着，

and they're interference patterns.

它们正互相渗透，它们是互相关联的。

JH: And they're non-deterministic.

JH:而且它们是不确定的。

I mean, you don't know necessarily where you're headed when you begin,

我是指你开始的时候不知道你将会走到那个地方，

even though the forces can be calculated.

尽管那些力量都可以被测量。

So the evolution of this --

所以，这个的革新是—

I gather this isn't your first pendulum.

我想这不是你首个钟摆作品。

TS: No. (JH: No.)

TS:不是（JH:嗯，不是。）

TS: The first one I did was in the late 70's,

TS：我做的第一个是在70年代后期，

and I just had a simple cone

我只有一个简单的圆锥，

with a spigot at the bottom of it.

圆锥底部有一个栓。

I threw it into an orbit,

我把它抛出去，让它沿着一个轨迹运动，

and it only had one color,

而这只有一种颜色，

and when it got to the center, the paint kept running out,

当它逐渐离中心越来越近的时候，颜料快用完了，

so I had to run in there,

所以我只能停在那里了，

didn't have any control over the spigot remotely.

那时候我对那个栓没有任何遥控。

So that told me right away: I need a remote control device.

所以那告诉我，我需要遥控那个装置。

But then I started dreaming of having six colors.

但是，然后我想我的画能有6种颜色。

I sort of think about it as the DNA --

我把它大概想象成了DNA—

these colors, the red, blue, yellow,

这些颜色，红，蓝，黄，

the primary colors and white and black.

三原色和白，黑。

And if you put them together in different combinations --

如果你把它们用不同的方法组合起来—

just like printing in a sense,

好像打印一样，

like how a magazine color is printed --

比如说，杂志颜色就是这样混合出来的—

and put them under certain forces,

组合的同时，用它们一定的力量控制它们

which is orbiting them

沿一定轨迹运动，

or passing them back and forth

或者让它们前后运动

or drawing with them,

或者用它们作画，

these amazing things started appearing.

这时候，这些美妙的东西开始出现了。

JH: It looks like we're loaded for bear here.

JH:这看上去我们是为了防备熊才搞成这样。

TS: Yeah, well let's put a couple of canvases.

TS：好的，让我们准备一些画布

I'll ask a couple of my sons

我会问一下我的徒弟们

to set up the canvases here.

去准备几块画布放在这里。

I want to just say --

让我介绍一下—

so this is Jack, Nick and Louie.

这是Jack, Nick, Louie。

JH: Thanks guys.

JH：谢谢，伙计们。

TS: So here are the --

TS：所以这里有—

JH: All right, I'll get out of the way here.

JH：好，先让我走开。

TS: I'm just going to throw this into an orbit

TS：我准备让这个沿着轨迹运动

and see if I can paint everybody's shoes in the front.

并看看我能不能画出在场前排各位的鞋子。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

JH: Whoa. That is ...

JH：哇，这是...

ooh, nice.

噢，十分漂亮。

TS: So something like this.

TS：我做的就是这些。

I'm doing this as a demo,

我做这个是作为一个示范，

and it's more playful,

更多是游戏性质的。

but inevitably,

但可见，

all of this can be used.

所有这些都是可以作为素材的。

I can redeem this painting,

我可以通过继续在上面画，一

just continuing on,

层叠一层地来

doing layers upon layers.

改善这幅画。

And I keep it around for a couple of weeks,

这个过程会持续几个星期。

and I'm contemplating it,

我会凝视它，

and I'll do another session with it

而且我会再次重复上面的步骤

and bring it up to another level,

以把它带到另一个层次，

where all of this

在那里，这些

becomes the background, the depth of it.

都会变成背景，深埋在画面底下。

JH: That's fantastic.

JH：这太棒了。

So the valves at the bottom of those tubes there

所以底部那些管道的阀门

are like radio-controlled airplane valves.

就好像无线电飞机的阀门

TS: Yes, they're servos with cams

TS：是啊，他们通过凸轮轴

that pinch these rubber tubes.

固定这些橡胶管来工作。

And they can pinch them very tight and stop it,

他们可以上紧轮轴来停止它，

or you can have them wide open.

也可以调得很松。

And all of the colors

所有颜色都

come out one central port

从一个在底部的

at the bottom.

中央点那里出来。

You can always be changing colors, put aluminum paint,

你可以随时改变颜色，比如把铝放进去，

or I could put anything into this.

其实我任何东西都可以放进去。

It could be tomato sauce,

可能是番茄酱，

or anything could be dispensed --

或者什么可以分散的—

sand, powders or anything like that.

沙子，粉末，或者类似的。

JH: So many forces there.

JH：原来有如此多的力量混在这里。

You've got gravity, you've got the centrifugal force,

重力，离心力，

you've got the fluid dynamics.

液体表面张力。

Each of these beautiful paintings,

这里每一张美丽的图画，

are they images in and of themselves,

都有它们自己的特质，又超越了它们的特质，

or are they records

和它们曾做过的

of a physical event

在纸张上做

called the pendulum approaching the canvas?

钟摆运动的物理现象？

TS: Well, this painting here,

TS：那么，就着这张作品，

I wanted to do something very simple,

我想做一些十分简单的事情，

a simple, iconic image

画一个简单，图标式的

of two ripples interfering.

两条波浪交汇的图案。

So the one on the right was done first,

首先右手边的这一个先做，

and then the one on the left

然后左边的这一个

was done over it.

用自己的画覆盖上去。

And then I left gaps

然后我留下空位

so you could see the one that was done before.

让你可以看到之前做的那些。

And then when I did the second one,

然后我做第二次，

it really disturbed the piece --

这些线真的扰乱了这作品—

these big blue lines

这些蓝色的线条

crashing through the center of it --

在中心杂乱地穿过。

and so it created a kind of tension and an overlap.

所以我制造了一种张力和一种重叠。

There are lines in front of the one on the right,

这里有些线条在右边画的那些的上面，

and there are lines behind the one on the left,

这里有线条在左边画的那些的下面。

and so it takes it into different planes.

所以我把它分进不同平面。

What it's also about,

就是这么做的，

just the little events,

这只是一些小作品，

the events of the interpenetration of --

这是一种交汇，有关....

JH: Two stars, or --

JH：两颗星星，或者—

TS: Two things that happened --

TS：两件发生了的事情，

there's an interference pattern, and then a third thing happens.

这里是一个重叠的图案，然后，第三件事情产生了。

There are shapes that come about

这里一些图形掺和了进来，

just by the marriage

正是在两个图案

of two events that are happening,

联姻的时候。

and I'm very interested in that.

我对此十分感兴趣。

Like the occurrence of moire patterns.

就好像云纹图案的创作。

Like this green one,

比如这个绿色的，

this is a painting I did about 10 years ago,

这是一幅我大概10年前画的画。

but it has some --

但是它有一些—

see, in the upper third --

看，上面第三个—

there are these moires and interference patterns

这里有一些云纹重叠的图案

that are radio kind of imagery.

好像是想象力的不断迸发。

And that's something that in painting

而这是一些从来没试过

I've never seen done.

在我的作品里出现的东西。

I've never seen a representation

我从来没有见过这种

of a kind of radio interference patterns,

如此普遍、在我们生活中

which are so ubiquitous

如此重要的放射状的

and such an important part of our lives.

重叠图案出现在我的画中。

JH: Is that a literal part of the image,

JH：这是画中一个真实的重叠图案，

or is my eye making that interference pattern --

还是我眼睛错觉造成的呢?

is my eye completing that interference pattern?

是我自己造成的这种图案吗？

TS: It is the paint actually,

TS：是画的原因，

makes it real.

让这感觉如此真实。

It's really manifested there.

这其实很容易明白。

If I throw a very concentric circle,

如果我定一个同心圆，

or concentric ellipse,

或者一个同心的弧形，

it just dutifully makes

它只会完成这个任务，

these evenly spaced lines,

画出这些固定的线条

which get closer and closer together,

这些线条靠得越来越近，

which describes how gravity works.

并因此告诉人们重力到底是怎样工作的。

There's something very appealing

这里有一些关于科学的正确性

about the exactitude of science

的东西很显而易见。

that I really enjoy.

我很享受这些东西。

And I love the shapes that I see

我很喜欢这些我

in scientific observations

在科学观察和

and apparatus,

仪器中见到的形状，

especially astronomical forms

特别是航天类的，

and the idea of the vastness of it,

它那广阔

the scale,

和精确的计算

is very interesting to me.

让我十分着迷。

My focus in recent years

我近年的焦点

has kind of shifted more toward biology.

某程度上转向了生物。

Some of these paintings, when you look at them very close,

有一些作品，如果你近距离地观察它们，

odd things appear

你会发现奇怪的东西，

that really look like horses or birds

这些东西看起来像马或者鸟

or crocodiles, elephants.

又或者是鳄鱼，大象。

There are lots of things that appear.

有很多这些东西出现。

When you look into it, it's sort of like looking at cloud patterns,

如果你仔细地观察，这些图案有点像云，

but sometimes they're very modeled and highly rendered.

但有时候它们只是一个模型，而且是高度抽象了的。

And then there are all these forms

然后有了这些图案

that we don't know what they are,

我不知道它们是什么，

but they're equally well-resolved

但是它们很好看，

and complex.

而且复杂。

So I think, conceivably, those could be predictive.

我想，有可能是预言。

Because since it has the ability

因为自从它有能力

to make forms

自己创造

that look like forms that we're familiar with

我们熟悉的

in biology,

生物图案，

it's also making other forms that we're not familiar with.

它也创造了我们不熟悉的图案。

And maybe it's the kind of forms

也许人们会从火星

we'll discover underneath the surface of Mars,

表面下发现这些图案，

where there are probably lakes

那些地区里有湖泊

with fish swimming under the surface.

可以让鱼在下面游泳。

JH: Oh, let's hope so. Oh, my God, let's.

JH:噢，但愿如此，天啊，让我，

Oh, please, yes. Oh, I'm so there.

哦，天啊，我好像置身其中了。

You know, it seems

它好像在你生命的舞台上

at this stage in your life,

占据了一个位置，

you also very personally

你自己也

are in this state of confrontation

正处于一个矛盾的，

with a sort of dissonant --

有一系列不协调—

I suppose it's an electromagnetic force

我想有一种类似电磁力的东西

that somehow governs your Parkinson's

在控制帕金森症，

and this creative force

而这种创造性的力量

that is both the artist

是艺术家们

who is in the here and now

朝思暮想的，

and this sort of arc of your whole life.

也是贯穿你整个生命的一道弧线。

Is that relevant to your work?

那么这是否与你的工作相关？

TS: As it turns out,

TS：结果是

this device kind of comes in handy,

这装置越来越便携了，

because I don't have to have

因为我不一定需要

the fine motor skills to do,

好的控制电源的技术，

that I can operate slides,

我也能控制圆锥的滑动，

which is more of a mental process.

这其实是一项脑力运动，

I'm looking at it and making decisions:

我看着它，做各种决定。

It needs more red, it needs more blue,

它需要多点红色，它需要多点蓝色，

it needs a different shape.

它需要一个不同的形状。

And so I make these creative decisions

所以我做出了有创意的决定

and can execute them

并将它们用一个十分十分

in a much, much simpler way.

简单的方法付诸实践、

I mean, I've got the symptoms.

我的意思是，我有这些症状。

I guess Parkinson's kind of creeps up over the years,

我想帕金森在这几年有加重的趋势，

but at a certain point you start seeing the symptoms.

对于你来说，你会看到明显的征兆。

In my case,

对于我来说，

my left hand has a significant tremor

就是我左手的一个特别的颤抖，

and my left leg also.

我的左脚也是这样。

I'm left-handed, and so I draw.

我是左撇子，所以我画画。

All my creations

我的所有创意

really start on small drawings,

真的来源于一幅幅小绘画，

which I have thousands of,

我有上千张这些小画。

and it's my way of just thinking.

我想东西的时候

I draw with a simple pencil,

我会拿着一只铅笔画画。

and at first, the Parkinson's

开始的时候，帕金森

was really upsetting,

真的十分令人沮丧，

because I couldn't get the pencil to stand still.

因为我不能稳定的拿着铅笔。

JH: So you're not a gatekeeper for these forces.

JH：所以，你不是这些力量的守护者。

You don't think of yourself as the master of these forces.

你不觉得自己是这些力量的主人。

You think of yourself as the servant.

相反，你觉得自己是它们的奴隶。

TS: Nature is -- well, it's a godsend.

TS：自然是—自然是神明。

It just has so much in it.

它含有太多太多。

And I think nature

我觉得自然

wants to express itself

想要表达我们也是自然地一部分，我们也是宇宙的一部分。

in the sense that we are nature,

也是自然地一部分，

humans are of the universe.

我们也是宇宙的一部分。

The universe is in our mind,

宇宙在我们心中，

and our minds are in the universe.

我们心中也拥有整个宇宙。

And we are expressions

本质上说，我们是宇宙

of the universe, basically.

表达出来的产物。

As humans,

作为人类，

ultimately being part of the universe,

最终成为宇宙的一部分，

we're kind of the spokespeople

我们某程度上是

or the observer part

做了表达者

of the constituency

或者全部宇宙

of the universe.

居民的观察者。

And to interface with it,

为了与这些力量产生共鸣，

with a device that lets these forces

我们用一个装置，让这些遍布周围

that are everywhere

的力量展示它能做的事情，

act and show what they can do,

给它们色彩，

giving them pigment and paint just like an artist,

让它们如艺术家般作画，

it's a good ally.

这是一种很好的关系。

It's a terrific studio assistant.

这是个让人震惊的工作室助手。

JH: Well, I love the idea

JH： 我喜欢这个想法

that somewhere within this idea

在这个想法里

of fine motion and control

有着一些你双手可以控制的

with the traditional skills

传统技术，

that you have with your hand,

里面夹带着正面的情绪和控制。

some sort of more elemental force gets revealed,

一些掺杂各种元素的力量得到呈现，

and that's the beauty here.

而这正是它美丽之处。

Tom, thank you so much. It's been really, really great.

Tom，非常感谢，这感觉真的是棒极了。

TS: Thank you, John.

TS：谢谢，John.

(Applause)

(掌声)