Tom Shannon: The painter and the pendulum

譯者: Mick Chen 審譯者: Shelley Krishna Tsang

John Hockenberry: It's great to be here with you, Tom.

John Hockenberry:很高興認識你,Tom

And I want to start with a question

我想要問你一個問題

that has just been consuming me

一個一直很困擾我的問題

since I first became familiar with your work.

自從我開始認識你的作品後

In you work there's always this kind of hybrid quality

我發現在你的作品中一直有著某種

of a natural force

自然元素

in some sort of interplay with creative force.

與創意互相影響的呈現

Are they ever in equilibrium

以你看作品的眼光來看

in the way that you see your work?

自然與創意甚麼時候會出現平衡呢?

Tom Shannon: Yeah, the subject matter that I'm looking for,

TM:在我尋找的素材中

it's usually to solve a question.

通常都是為了要解決一個問題

I had the question popped into my head:

我腦中一直有一個疑惑

What does the cone that connects the sun and the Earth look like

什麼樣的圓錐體可以聯繫著太陽與地球

if you could connect the two spheres?

如果你可以使他們連結在一起呢?

And in proportion, what would the size of the sphere

並且,這兩個星球大小與長度的比例應該如何

and the length, and what would the taper be to the Earth?

以及到達地球這端時這個錐體會是怎麼樣的樣子?

And so I went about and made that sculpture,

所以我往這方面思考並且做出了雕塑品

turning it out of solid bronze.

最後用青銅做出了成品

And I did one that was about 35 feet long.

它大約有35公尺長

The sun end was about four inches in diameter,

在太陽端直徑有4吋

and then it tapered over about 35 feet

接著以錐狀延伸約35公尺長

to about a millimeter at the Earth end.

到了地球端直徑約1毫米

And so for me, it was really exciting

對我來說,光是看到它會長成什麼樣子

just to see what it looks like

是非常有趣的事情

if you could step outside and into a larger context,

假如你可以踏出去,進入一個更大的空間

as though you were an astronaut,

就像你是個太空人一樣

and see these two things as an object,

並且看到這兩個星球像是個物體一般

because they are so intimately bound,

因為他們是如此親近的結合著

and one is meaningless without the other.

如果其中一個失去另一個那麼它就會毫無意義了

JH: Is there a relief

JH:當你在思考這個問題時

in playing with these forces?

是否有感覺到放鬆的時候?

And I'm wondering how much of a sense of discovery there is

並且,我在想當你在探討這些事情的時候

in playing with these forces.

在這個問題上到底有多少的可能性可以開發?

TS: Well, like the magnetically levitated objects --

TS:唔,就像那邊那個用銀做成

like that silver one there,

磁性吸引力原理的作品

that was the result

那是個經過數百次材料實驗

of hundreds of experiments with magnets,

的結果

trying to find a way to make something float

我在尋找一個可以使用最少與地表連結

with the least possible connection to the ground.

並且漂浮的方法

So I got it down to just one tether

所以我只做了一個栓繩

to be able to support that.

來支撐它

JH: Now is this electromagnetic here, or are these static?

JH:所以這是使用電磁學的還是固定的?

TS: Those are permanent magnets, yeah.

TS:它們是永久性磁石沒錯

JH: Because if the power went out, there would just be a big noise.

JH:因為如果它的磁力消失了當他掉下來會產生很大的聲音

TS: Yeah.

TS:是阿

It's really unsatisfactory having plug-in art.

使用插電式的藝術實在令人非常不滿意

JH: I agree.

JH:我同意

TS: The magnetic works

TS:電磁學作品是一種

are a combination of gravity and magnetism,

地心引力與磁力的結合

so it's a kind of mixture of these ambient forces

所以這算是一種混合了影響周遭一切

that influence everything.

的素材創作而成的結合

The sun has a tremendous field

太陽光有著極大的活動範疇

that extends way beyond the planets

並且擴張越過了星球

and the Earth's magnetic field protects us from the sun.

而地球有磁場可以保護我們免於太陽的力量

So there's this huge

所以,其實在宇宙中

invisible shape structures

磁力有種非常巨大

that magnetism takes in the universe.

並且隱形的結構

But with the pendulum,

然而,有了鐘擺

it allows me to manifest

它讓我明白了

these invisible forces

這個構成磁力的

that are holding the magnets up.

隱形的力量

My sculptures

我的雕塑作品

are normally very simplified.

都非常的簡單

I try to refine them down

我嘗試著去使它們更精煉

to very simple forms.

變成一個很簡單的構造

But the paintings become very complex,

但是在繪畫上它們變得非常的複雜

because I think the fields

因為我認為

that are supporting them,

那個支持著它們的力量

they're billowing, and they're interpenetrating,

是波浪似並且互相滲透貫穿

and they're interference patterns.

而且互相干擾的圖形

JH: And they're non-deterministic.

JH:而且他們是無法預測的

I mean, you don't know necessarily where you're headed when you begin,

我是指,儘管那些素材可以被計算出來,然而

even though the forces can be calculated.

當你一開始做的時候你並不知道你會往哪個方向走

So the evolution of this --

所以以現在的進展來看

I gather this isn't your first pendulum.

我想這不是你的第一個鐘擺吧

TS: No. (JH: No.)

TS:不 (JH:不)

TS: The first one I did was in the late 70's,

TS:我做的第一個是在1970年後期

and I just had a simple cone

而且我只有一個很簡單的圓錐體

with a spigot at the bottom of it.

有個一個小小的栓在它的底部

I threw it into an orbit,

我把它丟進一個軌道

and it only had one color,

而且他只有一個顏色

and when it got to the center, the paint kept running out,

當他到了中心的時候,顏料一直跑出來

so I had to run in there,

所以我必須跑進裡面

didn't have any control over the spigot remotely.

我無法在外面遙控那個栓

So that told me right away: I need a remote control device.

所以這件事情告訴我,我需要一個遙控裝置

But then I started dreaming of having six colors.

然後從那次之後我一直想著要有6個顏色

I sort of think about it as the DNA --

我有一點把它想成DNA的感覺

these colors, the red, blue, yellow,

這些顏色,紅的藍的黃的

the primary colors and white and black.

這些主要的顏色以及白色跟黑色

And if you put them together in different combinations --

如果你把他們使用不同的合併方式放在一起

just like printing in a sense,

某方面來說就像是在畫畫

like how a magazine color is printed --

像是雜誌的顏色是如何被印出來的

and put them under certain forces,

並把它們放在一些條件下

which is orbiting them

使它們繞軌道運行

or passing them back and forth

或是讓他們前後交替運動

or drawing with them,

或是用他們畫畫

these amazing things started appearing.

接著這些驚人的事情就開始發生了

JH: It looks like we're loaded for bear here.

JH: 我們已經準備好要面對了

TS: Yeah, well let's put a couple of canvases.

TS:是阿,我叫我兒子

I'll ask a couple of my sons

把兩片帆布

to set up the canvases here.

放在這裡

I want to just say --

這是

so this is Jack, Nick and Louie.

Jack, Nick和Louie

JH: Thanks guys.

JH:謝謝你們

TS: So here are the --

TS: 所以這是....

JH: All right, I'll get out of the way here.

JH: 我應該要到這裡來

TS: I'm just going to throw this into an orbit

TS:我現在要將它隨著軌道推出去

and see if I can paint everybody's shoes in the front.

我想想看看你們放在前面的腳會不會被上色

(Laughter)

(大笑)

JH: Whoa. That is ...

JH:哇嗚,這真是....

ooh, nice.

太好了

TS: So something like this.

TS:就像我

I'm doing this as a demo,

示範的這樣

and it's more playful,

那麼好玩

but inevitably,

錯誤

all of this can be used.

是不可避免的

I can redeem this painting,

只要一層又一層

just continuing on,

的覆蓋上去

doing layers upon layers.

就可以改變這幅畫

And I keep it around for a couple of weeks,

我讓它就這樣繞一兩個禮拜

and I'm contemplating it,

在這段時間

and I'll do another session with it

我會再做另外一個

and bring it up to another level,

更高難度的

where all of this

讓這一切

becomes the background, the depth of it.

成為背景

JH: That's fantastic.

這真是太棒了

So the valves at the bottom of those tubes there

所以在這個管子下面

are like radio-controlled airplane valves.

有個像是無線電遙控飛機的閥

TS: Yes, they're servos with cams

TS:只要用這個遙控器

that pinch these rubber tubes.

就可以控制他

And they can pinch them very tight and stop it,

可以讓它動的比較快或是讓他停止

or you can have them wide open.

你也可以就讓他打開

And all of the colors

這些顏色

come out one central port

是從底部的中心點

at the bottom.

出來的

You can always be changing colors, put aluminum paint,

你可以改變想要的顏色

or I could put anything into this.

你可以放顏料或放任何有顏色的東西

It could be tomato sauce,

番茄醬也可以

or anything could be dispensed --

什麼都可以放

sand, powders or anything like that.

沙子,粉 諸如此類的

JH: So many forces there.

JH:你用了很多力學的原裡

You've got gravity, you've got the centrifugal force,

像是動力,離心力

you've got the fluid dynamics.

還有流體動力學

Each of these beautiful paintings,

每一幅

are they images in and of themselves,

漂亮的畫

or are they records

都有被為記錄

of a physical event

稱為鐘擺理論

called the pendulum approaching the canvas?

的物理事件

TS: Well, this painting here,

TS:我只是想要做一個

I wanted to do something very simple,

簡單的標誌

a simple, iconic image

就像那幅

of two ripples interfering.

兩個連在一起的波紋

So the one on the right was done first,

右邊的那個波紋

and then the one on the left

先完成然後

was done over it.

左邊的波紋再上去

And then I left gaps

你可以從依些差距

so you could see the one that was done before.

看出先後順序

And then when I did the second one,

當我做第二個的時候

it really disturbed the piece --

有點不安

these big blue lines

因為這條藍色的線

crashing through the center of it --

沒有隨著軌道上去

and so it created a kind of tension and an overlap.

但是他卻表現出了張力和重疊

There are lines in front of the one on the right,

這些左邊的線條疊在右邊的線條上

and there are lines behind the one on the left,

右邊的線條在左邊的線條下

and so it takes it into different planes.

變成了不一樣的平面

What it's also about,

雖然對...

just the little events,

只是一個

the events of the interpenetration of --

滲透現象

JH: Two stars, or --

JH:兩個星星或...

TS: Two things that happened --

TS:對兩件事情

there's an interference pattern, and then a third thing happens.

這只是一個干涉的圖樣,然而第三件事情就發生了

There are shapes that come about

這是一個圖片

just by the marriage

就像是兩個人遇到了

of two events that are happening,

然後就結婚了

and I'm very interested in that.

我覺得

Like the occurrence of moire patterns.

疊紋原理很有趣

Like this green one,

就像是這幅我在十年前

this is a painting I did about 10 years ago,

做的畫

but it has some --

看一看

see, in the upper third --

上面第三個

there are these moires and interference patterns

這裡有些疊紋和滲透原理

that are radio kind of imagery.

像是無線電圖案

And that's something that in painting

在所有畫作上

I've never seen done.

我從來沒有看過

I've never seen a representation

像這樣的

of a kind of radio interference patterns,

一種無線電干擾圖樣

which are so ubiquitous

是無所不在的

and such an important part of our lives.

以及在我們日常生活中是非常重要的

JH: Is that a literal part of the image,

JH: 那是文字的部分圖像

or is my eye making that interference pattern --

或是在我眼中所顯現的干擾圖樣?

is my eye completing that interference pattern?

我完成那個干擾圖樣了嗎?

TS: It is the paint actually,

TS:那是真的畫

makes it real.

使他變真實

It's really manifested there.

他真的是在那邊

If I throw a very concentric circle,

如果我丟一個同心圓

or concentric ellipse,

或一個同心橢圓

it just dutifully makes

他將會使

these evenly spaced lines,

這些變成線狀

which get closer and closer together,

那些同心圓或同心橢圓會越來越靠近

which describes how gravity works.

這可以解釋重力如何運作

There's something very appealing

這有些事非常吸引人

about the exactitude of science

有關於科學的正確性

that I really enjoy.

我非常享受在其中

And I love the shapes that I see

而且我喜歡我所看到的形狀

in scientific observations

在科學的觀察

and apparatus,

以及儀器

especially astronomical forms

特別是天文學領域

and the idea of the vastness of it,

以及它無邊無際的想法

the scale,

它的規模

is very interesting to me.

非常使我感到興趣

My focus in recent years

我這幾年所專注的領域

has kind of shifted more toward biology.

有慢慢往生物學移動

Some of these paintings, when you look at them very close,

當你非常靠近得看這些畫時

odd things appear

奇怪的事情發生了

that really look like horses or birds

它們看起來真像馬或是鳥

or crocodiles, elephants.

或者是鱷魚以及大象

There are lots of things that appear.

有好多種東西同時出現

When you look into it, it's sort of like looking at cloud patterns,

當你往裡面看時,他有點像在看雲

but sometimes they're very modeled and highly rendered.

但他們有時很像模型且畫得很真實

And then there are all these forms

然後有這些形式

that we don't know what they are,

那些我們不知道它們是什麼的東西

but they're equally well-resolved

但他們同樣地很好解決

and complex.

且複雜

So I think, conceivably, those could be predictive.

所以我認為那些可以想像的將可以被預測

Because since it has the ability

因為它們有能力

to make forms

去做那些形式

that look like forms that we're familiar with

就像我們熟悉的形式一樣

in biology,

在生物學中

it's also making other forms that we're not familiar with.

他也可以做另一種我們不熟悉的形式

And maybe it's the kind of forms

且也許是某種形式

we'll discover underneath the surface of Mars,

某人可以發現火星的地表下面

where there are probably lakes

有湖泊

with fish swimming under the surface.

有魚在水裡游泳

JH: Oh, let's hope so. Oh, my God, let's.

JH:OH,讓我們祈禱吧

Oh, please, yes. Oh, I'm so there.

拜託,我想去那

You know, it seems

你知道,那似乎

at this stage in your life,

是在你生命中的某一階段

you also very personally

你也非常個人的

are in this state of confrontation

在這種比較的狀況下

with a sort of dissonant --

有一種不和諧的來源

I suppose it's an electromagnetic force

我提議一個電磁力量

that somehow governs your Parkinson's

那是種控制巴金森氏症的東西

and this creative force

而且他創造的力量

that is both the artist

都是藝術家

who is in the here and now

誰現在在這

and this sort of arc of your whole life.

而且是一種你整個生命裡的弧形

Is that relevant to your work?

這跟你的工作有關係嗎

TS: As it turns out,

TS:結果證明是

this device kind of comes in handy,

這個裝置是一種手持式的裝置

because I don't have to have

因為我不必去擁有

the fine motor skills to do,

一個精巧的馬達技術去做

that I can operate slides,

我可以利用滑動來操作他

which is more of a mental process.

這是種行為的過程

I'm looking at it and making decisions:

我在尋找他並做結論

It needs more red, it needs more blue,

它需要更多紅色,也需要很多的藍色

it needs a different shape.

它也需要不同的形狀

And so I make these creative decisions

所以我創造出這些有創意的結論

and can execute them

而且可以執行它們

in a much, much simpler way.

在一個非常簡單的方法之下

I mean, I've got the symptoms.

我的意思是,我得到了一些徵兆

I guess Parkinson's kind of creeps up over the years,

我猜巴金森氏症是一種在近幾年不知不覺發現的症狀

but at a certain point you start seeing the symptoms.

但在某些特定的情況下,你可以看到一些徵兆

In my case,

在我的例子裡

my left hand has a significant tremor

我的左手有劇烈的顫抖

and my left leg also.

我的左腿也是

I'm left-handed, and so I draw.

我是左撇子,所以我可以畫畫

All my creations

在我的創意裡

really start on small drawings,

真的從小的畫作開始

which I have thousands of,

現在已經有成千上萬個了

and it's my way of just thinking.

而且這是我的所想像的方式

I draw with a simple pencil,

我用一隻簡單的鉛筆畫

and at first, the Parkinson's

一開始,巴金森氏症患者

was really upsetting,

是非常不開心的

because I couldn't get the pencil to stand still.

因為我不行讓鉛筆靜止不動

JH: So you're not a gatekeeper for these forces.

JH:所以你不是這些力量的把關人

You don't think of yourself as the master of these forces.

你不必把你自己想像成這種力量的專家

You think of yourself as the servant.

你把你自己想像成是一個公僕

TS: Nature is -- well, it's a godsend.

TS:自然是--好吧,那是個天賜之物

It just has so much in it.

它有很多東西在那裏面

And I think nature

並且我認為自然

wants to express itself

想要表達他自己

in the sense that we are nature,

在我們都是自然的那種感覺下

humans are of the universe.

人類是在宇宙之中的

The universe is in our mind,

宇宙它在我們的心裡

and our minds are in the universe.

而且我們的心靈是在宇宙中的

And we are expressions

我們是表達

of the universe, basically.

基本上在宇宙中

As humans,

像人類一樣

ultimately being part of the universe,

最後的將成為宇宙的一部分

we're kind of the spokespeople

我們是一種發言人

or the observer part

或是一種觀察員

of the constituency

全體選民的

of the universe.

在宇宙中

And to interface with it,

且要聯繫它

with a device that lets these forces

藉由一種裝置使得這些力量

that are everywhere

可以在任何地方出現

act and show what they can do,

行動或是顯示什麼可以做

giving them pigment and paint just like an artist,

給它們一些顏料和畫就像一個藝術家一樣

it's a good ally.

是個很好的夥伴

It's a terrific studio assistant.

這是種嚇人的工作室助手

JH: Well, I love the idea

JH:很好,我喜歡這個想法

that somewhere within this idea

何時何地我曾想過這個想法

of fine motion and control

藉由精確的行動以及控制

with the traditional skills

以及擁有傳統的技能

that you have with your hand,

你的手所擁有的

some sort of more elemental force gets revealed,

某種自然力的來源被揭發

and that's the beauty here.

並且這是非常美麗的

Tom, thank you so much. It's been really, really great.

非常謝謝你Tom,今天的談話非常的愉快

TS: Thank you, John.

TS:John,謝謝你

(Applause)

(掌聲)