A Choreographer's Creative Process in Real Time | Wayne McGregor | TED Talks

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

翻译人员: Bowen Yang 校对人员: Yi Shao

As you might imagine, I'm absolutely passionate

你们能想象到，我对舞蹈充满了热情

about dance. I'm passionate about making it,

我热衷于编舞，

about watching it, about encouraging others

看别人跳舞，鼓励他人

to participate in it,

参与到舞蹈中来，

and I'm also really passionate about creativity.

我同样对创造力充满了激情。

Creativity for me is something that's absolutely critical,

创造力对我来说是至关重要的，

and I think it's something that you can teach.

我认为创造力是可以教的。

I think the technicities of creativity can be taught

我认为创造力的技术细节是可以教的

and shared, and I think you can find out things

也可以被分享，我认为你可以找到

about your own personal physical signature,

你自己的标志性动作，

your own cognitive habits, and use that as

你自己的认知习惯，

a point of departure to misbehave beautifully.

并以此为起点优美地去“不守规矩”。

I was born in the 1970s, and John Travolta was big

我是一个七零后，那时候约翰.屈伏塔是大明星

in those days: "Grease," "Saturday Night Fever,"

《油脂》、《周末夜狂热》

and he provided a fantastic kind of male role model for me

他给了我一个男性舞者的最好榜样

to start dancing. My parents were very up for me going.

让我开始习舞。我父母非常支持我。

They absolutely encouraged me to take risks, to go,

他们绝对鼓励我去冒险，去努力，去尝试，不断地尝试

to try, to try. I had an opportunity, an access

我当时有个机会，进了一间

to a local dance studio, and I had an enlightened teacher

本地的舞蹈培训班，有一位开明的启蒙老师

who allowed me to make up my own and invent

她允许我自己编排，创造自己的舞蹈

my own dances, so what she did was let me make up

她让我自己编排

my own ballroom and Latin American dances to teach

舞厅舞和拉丁舞的节目

to my peers.

并教给同学们。

And that was the very first time that I found an opportunity

那就是我生平头一次有机会

to feel that I was able to express my own voice,

感受到自己有能力表达自己的声音，

and that's what's fueled me, then, to become a choreographer.

这成了之后我想做编舞的动力，

I feel like I've got something to say and something to share.

我感到自己有东西要说，要分享。

And I guess what's interesting is, is that I am now obsessed

它的有趣之处在于，也是让我为之沉迷的是，

with the technology of the body.

人体技术。

I think it's the most technologically literate thing that we have,

我认为这是我们拥有的最具技术文明的东西，

and I'm absolutely obsessed with finding a way

我一门心思想要找到一种方法

of communicating ideas through the body to audiences

能通过肢体语言与观众交流

that might move them, touch them,

能够带动他们，感动他们，

help them think differently about things.

帮助他们转变思维和观念。

So for me, choreography is very much a process

对我来说，编舞是一个用肢体思考的过程

of physical thinking. It's very much in mind,

不光存在于我们的思维中，

as well as in body, and it's a collaborative process.

也存在于我们的身体里。它是一个互相协作的过程。

It's something that I have to do with other people.

这是需要与他人合作才能完成的。

You know, it's a distributed cognitive process in a way.

从某种意义上说，这是一个分散的认知过程。

I work often with designers and visual artists,

我经常与设计师和视觉艺术家合作，

obviously dancers and other choreographers,

当然还有舞者和其他的编舞，

but also, more and more, with economists,

但越来越多的，我会与经济学家、

anthropologists, neuroscientists, cognitive scientists,

人类学家、核物理学家、认知科学家搭档，

people really who come from very different domains of

大家的专业领域各不相同，

expertise, where they bring their intelligence to bear

他们为

on a different kind of creative process.

个人专业之外的创作过程贡献才华。

What I thought we would do today a little bit is

我觉得今天要让大家

explore this idea of physical thinking,

稍稍发掘一下肢体思考的理念，

and we're all experts in physical thinking.

我们全都是肢体思考的专家。

Yeah, you all have a body, right?

大家都长了一个身体，不是吗？

And we all know what that body is like in the real world,

我们都知道现实世界中的人体是什么样子的，

so one of the aspects of physical thinking

所以肢体思考的一个方面就是

that we think about a lot is this notion of proprioception,

我们一直要提到“本体感受”这个概念，

the sense of my own body in the space in the real world.

在真实空间中对自己身体的意识。

So, we all understand what it feels like to know

比如说，我们都知道

where the ends of your fingers are

自己的手指尖在哪里

when you hold out your arms, yeah?

当你双臂平举的时候，对不对？

You absolutely know that when you're going to grab a cup,

你完全知道当你去拿一个杯子的时候，

or that cup moves and you have to renavigate it.

或者杯子动了一下，你需要重新调整方向。

So we're experts in physical thinking already.

所以我们已经是肢体思考的专家了。

We just don't think about our bodies very much.

我们只是不太关注自己的身体。

We only think about them when they go wrong, so, when

我们只有在身体出问题时才关注它，

there's a broken arm, or when you have a heart attack,

比如手臂骨折了，比如心脏病发了，

then you become really very aware of your bodies.

这时候你才会密切关注自己的身体。

But how is it that we can start to think about using

但是我们怎样才能开始

choreographic thinking, kinesthetic intelligence, to arm

用舞蹈艺术的思维，运动知觉的智慧去

the ways in which we think about things more generally?

武装我们的思维呢？

What I thought I'd do is, I'd make a TED premiere.

我想我要做的是，办一个TED首演。

I'm not sure if this is going to be good or not.

我不知道能不能成功。

I'll just be doing it.

只要试试看。

I thought what I'd do is, I'd use three versions

我想要用三种肢体思考的方法

of physical thinking to make something.

来做个什么东西。

I want to introduce you. This is Paolo. This is Catarina.

我要向大家介绍：这是保罗，这是卡特琳娜。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

They have no idea what we're going to do.

他们不知道我们将要做什么。

So this is not the type of choreography where

所以这不是一种已知的舞蹈编排

I already have in mind what I'm going to make,

我脑海中已经有成品舞的那种，

where I've fixed the routine in my head

我要打破惯例

and I'm just going to teach it to them,

只是要教他们，

and these so-called empty vessels are just going to learn it.

这所谓的两张白纸就能学会。

That's not the methodology at all that we work with.

这不是我们通常用的方法。

But what's important about it is how it is that they're

这里的关键点在于

grasping information, how they're taking information,

他们是如何获取和接受信息的，

how they're using it, and how they're thinking with it.

他们如何运用这些信息来思考。

I'm going to start really, really simply.

我从非常简单的开始。

Usually, dance has a stimulus or stimuli, and I thought

通常，舞蹈都有一个或多个刺激因素

I'd take something simple, TED logo, we can all see it,

我用个简单的，TED标志，我们都能看到，

it's quite easy to work with, and I'm going to do something

用起来很简单，我将要做的也很简单

very simply, where you take one idea from a body,

就是你从一个肢体提取一个信息，

and it happens to be my body, and translate that

假设这个肢体是我的身体，然后将它

into somebody else's body,

翻译成另一个人的肢体语言，

so it's a direct transfer, transformation of energy.

所以这是个直接的信息传递，能量的传递。

And I'm going to imagine this, you can do this too if you like,

我会想象，如果喜欢你也可以这么做，

that I'm going to just take the letter "T" and I'm going

我只取这个字母“T"，我要

to imagine it in mind, and I'm going to place that outside in

在我的脑海中想象它的形状，然后我把它呈现在

the real world. So I absolutely see a letter "T" in front of me.

外面的实体世界。所以我真切地看到一个字母T在我面前。

Yeah? It's absolutely there.

对吗？它的的确确在那。

I can absolutely walk around it when I see it, yeah?

当我看到它的时候，我完全可以绕着它走，对吗？

It has a kind of a grammar. I know what I'm going to do

好像一种语法。我知道我将用它来做什么

with it, and I can start to describe it, so I can describe it

我可以开始描述它，比如我简单地

very simply. I can describe it in my arms, right?

描述一下。我可以用我的胳膊描述它，对吗？

So all I did was take my hand and then I move my hand.

我做的仅仅是拿起我的手，然后舞动我的手。

I can describe it, whoa, in my head, you know? Whoa.

我也可以，哇，用我的头描述它，你知道吗？哇。

Okay. I can do also my shoulder. Yeah?

好。我还可以用我的肩膀。不是吗？

It gives me something to do, something to work towards.

它让我有东西可做，给了我一个目标。

If I were to take that letter "T" and flatten it down

如果我拿那个字母T，把它推到在地板上

on the floor, here, maybe just off the floor,

在这里，或者要掉下舞台，

all of a sudden I could do maybe something with my knee,

突然我可以用我的膝盖做些动作，

yeah? Whoa. So If I put the knee and the arms together,

是吗？哇。如果我同时运用我的膝盖和手臂，

I've got something physical, yeah? And I can start to build something.

我就有了些实体的东西，对吗？然后我可以开始组建些东西。

So what I'm going to do just for one and a half minutes or so

所以在接下来的大约1分半钟，我要做的是

is I'm going to take that concept, I'm going to make something,

用这一概念，创造些东西，

and the dancers behind me are going to interpret it,

我身后的舞者将诠释它，

they're going to snapshot it, they're going to take

他们会连续地定格它，

aspects of it, and it's almost like I'm offloading memory

提取它的某些部分，就好像我在卸载记忆

and they're holding onto memory? Yeah?

而他们在接收这些记忆？是吗？

And we'll see what we come up with.

让我们看看究竟会有什么收获。

So just have a little watch about how they're, how they're

请注意一下他们是，他们是如何

accessing this and what they're doing,

接收这些，他们在做什么，

and I'm just going to take this letter "T," the letter "E,"

我仅仅只是要用这个字母T，字母E，

and the letter "D," to make something. Okay. Here goes.

和字母D，来做些东西。好，现在开始。

So I have to get myself in the zone. Right.

我得站在这块区域。对。

It's a bit of a cross of my arm.

一些手臂的交叉

So all I'm doing is exploring this space of "T"

我在做的仅仅是探索”T"的空间

and flashing through it with some action.

通过一些动作穿梭于这个空间。

I'm not remembering what I'm doing.

我没有在记忆我做过的动作。

I'm just working on my task. My task is this "T."

我只是在做我的任务。我的任务是“T"。

Going to watch it from the side, whoa.

从这侧看一下，哇。

Strike moment.

爆发的时候。

That's it.

就是它。

So we're starting to build a phrase.

所以我们开始组建一个词语。

So what they're doing, let's see, something like that,

所以他们在做的，让我们看一下，类似那样的

so what they're doing is grasping aspects of that movement

他们在做的是抓住那个动作的某些方面

and they're generating it into a phrase.

用它来生成一个词语

You can see the speed is extremely quick, yeah?

你可以看到这速度相当快，是吗？

I'm not asking them to copy exactly.

我并没有要求他们完全复制我的动作。

They're using the information that they receive

他们用他们获取的信息

to generate the beginnings of a phrase.

来生成一句话的开始。

I can watch that and that can tell me something

我可以观看它，它能告诉我一些东西

about how it is that they're moving.

关于他们在舞动些什么。

Yeah, they're super quick, right?

他们现在已经很快了，是吗？

So I've taken this aspect of TED and translated it

所以我用了TED的这一方面，把它翻译成

into something that's physical.

有形的东西。

Some dancers, when they're watching action,

一些舞者，当他们观察动作的时候，

take the overall shape, the arc of the movement,

吸取的是大致的形状，动作的弧线，

the kinetic sense of the movement,

动作的动力感，

and use that for memory.

以此作为信息的来源。

Some work very much in specific detail.

有些则比较关注细节。

They start with small little units and build it up.

他们以很小的单元开始，慢慢构建。

Okay, you've got something? One more thing.

好，你体会到些什么了吗？还有一点。

So they're solving this problem for me,

他们在帮我解决这个问题，

having a little --

用一点--

They're constructing that phrase.

他们在组建那个词语。

They have something and they're going to hold on to it,

他们有些信息，他们会抓住它，

yeah? One way of making.

这是一种创造的方法。

That's going to be my beginning in this world premiere.

这将是我世界首演的开始。

Okay. From there I'm going to do a very different thing.

好。接下来我要做一些不同的事。

So basically I'm going to make a duet.

简单地说，我要创造一个二重唱。

I want you to think about them as architectural objects,

我需要你把他们想象成建筑的零部件，

so what they are, are just pure lines.

所以他们是什么，仅仅是线条。

They're no longer people, just pure lines, and I'm going

他们不是人体，仅仅是线条

to work with them almost as objects to think with, yeah?

我将他们一起合作，但把他们当成物体。

So what I'm thinking about is taking

所以我在想的是

a few physical extensions from the body as I move, and

在运动的时候，从身体本身做一些形体的延伸

I move them, and I do that by suggesting things to them:

我让他们移动，通过给他们一些建议：

If, then; if, then. Okay, so here we go.

以如果，那么；如果，那么的形式。好，我们开始。

Just grab this arm.

抓住这手臂。

Can you place that down into the floor?

把它放下到地板上可以吗？

Yeah, down to the floor. Can you go underneath?

对，到地板上。然后你从下面穿过去可以吗？

Yeah. Cat, can you put leg over that side? Yeah.

对。小凯，你把腿跨过那边可以吗？对。

Can you rotate?

再旋转一下？

Whoom, just go back to the beginning.

喔，我们从头开始。

Here we go, ready? And ... bam, bake ... (clicks metronome)

准备好了吗？.... bam, bake .... （打节拍）

Great. Okay, from there, you're both getting up.

非常棒。好，从那起，你们一起站起来。

You're both getting up. Here we go. Good, now? Them.

都站起来。对了。好，现在。他们。

(Applause)

（掌声）

So from there, from there, we're both getting up,

所以从那起，我们都站起来，

we're both getting up, going in this direction,

我们都站起来，向这个方向走，

going underneath. Whoa, whoa, underneath.

再从底下绕过去。哇，哇，底下过去。

Whoa, underneath, whoo-um. Yeah? Underneath. Jump.

哇，下面走，喔。可以吗？下面走。跳。

Underneath. Jump. Paolo, kick. Don't care where. Kick.

下面走。跳。保罗，踢一下。不用管哪里。踢一下。

Kick, replace, change a leg. Kick, replace, change the leg.

踢，替换，换一只脚站。踢，替换，换腿。

Yeah? Okay? Cat, almost get his head. Almost get his head.

可以吗？小凯，差一点触碰到他的头。差一点。

Whoaa. Just after it, maybe. Whoaa, whaaay, ooh.

哇。紧跟在它后面，也许。哇，喂，哦。

Grab her waist, come up back into her first, whoom, spin,

搂住她的腰，起来回到她旁边，喔，旋转

turn her, whoo-aa. (Snaps) Great.

转她，哇。（打响指）非常棒。

Okay, let's have a little go from the beginning of that.

好，让我们从最开始来一遍。

Just, let me slow down here. Fancy having eight -- (Laughter)

让我先在这放慢些节奏。对八小时 -- （笑声）

Fancy having eight hours with me in a day.

对一天和我在一起八小时感兴趣吗。

So, maybe too much. So, here we go, ready, and -- (Clicks metronome)

也许多了点。所以，我们开始，准备，开始（打节拍）

(Clicks metronome)

（打节拍）

Nice, good job. Yeah? Okay. (Applause)

漂亮，做得好。是吗？好。（掌声）

Okay, not bad. (Applause) A little bit more?

好，不错。（掌声）再多一点？

Yeah. Just a little bit more, here we go, from that place.

再多一点点，我们开始，从那边。

Separate. Face the front. Separate. Face the front.

分开。面对前方。分开。面对前方。

Imagine that there's a circle in front of you, yeah?

想象你们前面有一个圆，看到吗？

Avoid it. Avoid it. Whoom. Kick it out of the way.

躲开它。躲开它。喔。把它踢走。

Kick it out of the way. Throw it into the audience. Whoom.

把它踢走。把它丢给观众。喔

Throw it into the audience again.

把它丢给观众多一次

We've got mental architecture, we're sharing it,

我们已经有了一个思维的建筑，我们在分享它

therefore solving a problem. They're enacting it.

也就是在解决一个问题。他们在实现它

Let me just see that a little bit. Ready, and go.

让我们再来看一下。准备，开始。

(Clicks metronome)

（打节奏）

Okay, brilliant. Okay, here we go. From the beginning,

好，非常好。好，我们开始。从头

can we do our phrases first? And then that.

我们可以先做我们的词语吗？然后再是那个

And we're going to build something now, organize it,

我们现在要组建一些东西，让它有条理地

the phrases. Here we go. Nice and slow?

成为一个流畅的词语。我们开始。优美的，慢慢的

Ready and go ... um. (Clicks metronome)

开始。（打节奏）

(Clicks metronome)

（打节奏）

The duet starts. (Clicks metronome)

双人舞开始。（打节奏）

(Clicks metronome)

（打节奏）

So yeah, okay, good. Okay, nice, very nice. (Applause)

对了，好的，好。好，很漂亮，非常漂亮。（掌声）

So good. So -- (Applause)

太棒了。太-- （掌声）

Okay. So that was -- (Applause)

好的。刚才那是-- （掌声）

Well done. (Applause)

干得漂亮（掌声）

That was the second way of working.

那是第二种创造模式

The first one, body-to-body transfer, yeah,

第一种，肢体对肢体的传递

with an outside mental architecture that I work with

把我展现出来的一个思维构架

that they hold memory with for me.

他们存入记忆，为我保留。

The second one, which is using them as objects to think

第二种则是把他们当作物体来思考

with their architectural objects, I do a series of

他们的构架，我发出一连串的

provocations, I say, "If this happens, then that.

提示，我会说，“如果这个发生了，那么怎样。

If this, if that happens -- " I've got lots of methods like that,

如果这个发生了，那么怎样--” 我有很多类似那样的方法，

but it's very, very quick, and this is a third method.

但它非常非常快，这是第三种方法。

They're starting it already, and this is a task-based method,

他们已经开始了，这是一个任务型的方法，

where they have the autonomy to make

他们有自主权去做

all of the decisions for themselves.

他们自己的决定。

So I'd like us just to do, we're going to do a little

所以我想让大家来体验一下，我们来做一个小小的

mental dance, a little, in this little one minute,

思维的舞蹈，不多，只要短短一分钟，

so what I'd love you to do is imagine,

所以我想要你们做的是想象一下，

you can do this with your eyes closed, or open, and if you

你可以闭上眼睛做，或者睁着眼睛，如果

don't want to do it you can watch them, it's up to you.

不想做，你可以看他们做，都可以。

Just for a second, think about that word "TED" in front of

只要一秒钟，想象“TED”这个词在你面前，

you, so it's in mind, and it's there right in front of your mind.

它在你的脑子里，它就在那，在你面前。

What I'd like you to do is transplant that outside

我想让你做的是把它搬到外面的

into the real world, so just imagine that word "TED"

现实世界中，所以想象"TED"这个词

in the real world.

在现实世界里。

What I'd like you to do what that is take an aspect of it.

我想要你们做的是截取它的一个方面

I'm going to zone in on the "E," and I'm going to

我要放大聚焦在字母“E"上，然后我要

scale that "E" so it's absolutely massive,

把”E"放大，直到它变得绝对的巨大

so I'm scaling that "E" so it's absolutely massive,

所以我在放大“E"直到它变得绝对巨大，

and then I'm going to give it dimensionality.

然后我要赋予它立体感。

I'm going to think about it in 3D space. So now,

我要想象它存在于一个3D空间里。所以现在，

instead of it just being a letter that's in front of me,

它不仅仅是一个字母在我面前，

it's a space that my body can go inside of.

而是一个空间，我的身体可以走进其中。

I now decide where I'm going to be in that space,

我现在决定我会在这空间的哪个地方，

so I'm down on this small part of the bottom rib

所以我在最底层那条的某个小空间里

of the letter "E," and I'm thinking about it, and I'm imagining

在这个字母”E"中，我在想象，想象

this space that's really high and above. If I asked you to

我头顶上很高的空间。如果我让你

reach out — you don't have to literally do it, but in mind —

伸出手去触摸 -- 你不必真的做，可以在脑子里 --

reach out to the top of the "E," where would you reach?

去触摸“E"的顶端，你会触碰到哪里？

If you reach with your finger, where would it be?

如果用你的手指去触摸，它会在哪？

If you reach with your elbow, where would it be?

如果用你的手肘，它会在哪？

If I already then said about that space that you're in,

如果我已经告诉了你身处的空间，

let's infuse it with the color red, what does that do

那么让我们用红色填满它，这会造成什么影响

to the body? If I then said to you, what happens if

对你的身体？如果我对你说，如果

that whole wall on the side of "E" collapses and you have to

”E"边上的整面墙倒塌了，又会怎样，你必须

use your weight to put it back up,

靠自己的体重把它撑起，

what would you be able to do with it?

你又会做什么？

So this is a mental picture, I'm describing a mental,

所以这是一个脑海中的画面，我在描述一幅生动的

vivid picture that enables dancers to make choices

思维图画，让舞者能够自己决定

for themselves about what to make.

要创造什么。

Okay, you can open your eyes if you had them closed.

好的，如果你一直闭着眼睛的话，现在可以睁开了。

So the dancers have been working on them.

所以舞者已经在演练这些了。

So just keep working on them for a little second.

请在继续一会儿。

So they've been working on those mental architectures in the here.

所以他们已经在致力于那些思维构架了，就在这。

I know, I think we should keep them as a surprise.

我知道，我想我们得把他们作为一个惊喜。

So here goes, world premiere dance. Yeah? Here we go.

所以现在开始，世界首演舞蹈。是吗？开始。

TED dance. Okay. Here it comes. I'm going to organize it quickly.

TED舞蹈。好的。它开始了。我先快速地安排一下。

So, you're going to do the first solo that we made,

所以，你们先做我们刚才设计的独舞，

yeah blah blah blah blah, we go into the duet, yeah,

对，等等，然后我们进入双人舞，对，

blah blah blah blah. The next solo, blah blah blah blah,

等等等等。下一个独舞，略过，

yeah, and both at the same time, you do the last solutions.

对，然后你们同时做最后一段。

Okay? Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, world premiere,

好吗？好。女士们，先生们，世界首演，

TED dance, three versions of physical thinking. (Applause)

TED舞蹈，三种身体 思考的版本。（掌声）

Well, clap afterwards, let's see if it's any good, yeah? (Laughter)

好的，请之后再鼓掌，让我们看看它够不够好，好吗？（笑声）

So yeah, let's clap -- yeah, let's clap afterwards.

所以，让我们给点掌声 -- 对，之后再鼓掌。

Here we go. Catarina, big moment, here we go, one.

我们开始。凯特琳娜，大动作，对了，一。

(Clicks metronome)

（打节奏）

Here it comes, Cat. (Clicks metronome)

现在来，小凯。（打节拍）

Paolo, go. (Clicks metronome) Last you solo.

保罗，走。（打节拍）最后的独舞。

The one you made. (Clicks metronome)

你们编的那个。（打节拍）

(Clicks metronome)

（打节拍）

Well done. Okay, good. Super. So --

太棒了。好的，很好，非常好。所以 --

(Applause)

（掌声）

So -- (Applause)

所以 -- （掌声）

Thank you. (Applause)

谢谢。（掌声）

So -- three versions. (Applause) Oh. (Laughs)

所以 -- 三个版本。（掌声） 哦。（笑声）

(Applause) Three versions of physical thinking, yeah?

（掌声）这就是三个版本的身体思考

Three versions of physical thinking. I'm hoping that today,

三个版本的身体思考。我希望今天

what you're going to do is go away and make a dance

回去后你自己编一个舞蹈

for yourself, and if not that,

或者

at least misbehave more beautifully, more often.

至少更加华丽的、更加平凡的打破陈规。

Thank you very much. (Applause)

非常感谢。（掌声）

Thank you. Thank you. (Applause)

谢谢，谢谢你们。（掌声）

Here we go. (Applause)

就这样。（掌声）

(Applause)

（掌声）