A Choreographer's Creative Process in Real Time | Wayne McGregor | TED Talks

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Morton Bast

譯者: Chia-Hui Lee 審譯者: Adrienne Lin

As you might imagine, I'm absolutely passionate

如你所想的，我對舞蹈很有熱情。

about dance. I'm passionate about making it,

我熱衷創作舞蹈、

about watching it, about encouraging others

熱衷欣賞舞蹈，

也熱衷鼓勵別人參與其中。

to participate in it,

and I'm also really passionate about creativity.

我對創造力也很有熱情。

Creativity for me is something that's absolutely critical,

對我來說，創造力是至關重要的。

and I think it's something that you can teach.

我認為創造力是可以教的，

I think the technicities of creativity can be taught

我認為創造力技巧是可以傳授、分享的。

and shared, and I think you can find out things

我認為你可以找到專屬自己的身體符號、

about your own personal physical signature,

your own cognitive habits, and use that as

認知習慣，

a point of departure to misbehave beautifully.

並以此為出發點，好好地「胡鬧」一番。

I was born in the 1970s, and John Travolta was big

我出生於 1970 年代，

當時約翰屈伏塔可是個大人物， 像是《火爆浪子》、《週六夜瘋狂》。

in those days: "Grease," "Saturday Night Fever,"

and he provided a fantastic kind of male role model for me

他提供了很棒的男性榜樣，讓我開始跳舞。

to start dancing. My parents were very up for me going.

我的父母總是讓我做決定，

They absolutely encouraged me to take risks, to go,

他們全力地鼓勵我出發去冒險、

to try, to try. I had an opportunity, an access

去嘗試，再嘗試。

過去我有個機會在當地的舞蹈教室上課，

to a local dance studio, and I had an enlightened teacher

且我的老師很有啟發性。

who allowed me to make up my own and invent

她允許我自己獨立創編舞蹈。

my own dances, so what she did was let me make up

她所做的是

讓我自己編國標和拉丁舞，

my own ballroom and Latin American dances to teach

教給我的同儕。

to my peers.

And that was the very first time that I found an opportunity

那是我第一次有機會

to feel that I was able to express my own voice,

感受到我可以表達自己的心聲。

and that's what's fueled me, then, to become a choreographer.

這激勵了我日後成為一位編舞者。

I feel like I've got something to say and something to share.

我覺得我有東西要說，有東西要分享。

And I guess what's interesting is, is that I am now obsessed

我想有趣的地方在於，

現在我對肢體的技巧非常著迷。

with the technology of the body.

I think it's the most technologically literate thing that we have,

我認為這是我們最擅長的溝通傳達技巧。

and I'm absolutely obsessed with finding a way

我完全著迷於

尋找一種透過肢體 向觀眾表達理念的方式，

of communicating ideas through the body to audiences

that might move them, touch them,

來感動他們、觸動他們的心、

help them think differently about things.

幫助他們用不同角度思考。

So for me, choreography is very much a process

所以對我來說， 編舞是一種物理性思考。

of physical thinking. It's very much in mind,

這過程存在於腦中，

as well as in body, and it's a collaborative process.

也存在於身體，是一種合作式的過程。

It's something that I have to do with other people.

是必須和別人合作完成的事。

You know, it's a distributed cognitive process in a way.

某種程度上說，是種分散的認知過程。

I work often with designers and visual artists,

我常和設計師和視覺藝術家一起工作，

obviously dancers and other choreographers,

當然還有舞者和其他的編舞家，

but also, more and more, with economists,

但現在，我有更多的機會是和經濟學家、

anthropologists, neuroscientists, cognitive scientists,

人類學家、神經學家，認知科學家

people really who come from very different domains of

和許多來自不同領域的專家一起合作。

expertise, where they bring their intelligence to bear

他們把不同領域的智慧

on a different kind of creative process.

運用在不同的創新過程。

What I thought we would do today a little bit is

而今天我們要做的是稍稍探索一下

explore this idea of physical thinking,

物理性思考這個想法。

and we're all experts in physical thinking.

我們都是物理性思考的專家，

Yeah, you all have a body, right?

我們都有軀體，對吧？

And we all know what that body is like in the real world,

我們都知道身體在現實世界是怎樣的，

so one of the aspects of physical thinking

物理性思考的其中一個面向

that we think about a lot is this notion of proprioception,

就是「本體感受」這概念，

the sense of my own body in the space in the real world.

就是自己的身體在真實空間中的感覺。

So, we all understand what it feels like to know

我們都了解

當你敞開雙臂，

where the ends of your fingers are

when you hold out your arms, yeah?

知道自己手指在哪的感覺。

You absolutely know that when you're going to grab a cup,

你絕對知道你什麼時候要拿杯子、

or that cup moves and you have to renavigate it.

或要把移動了的杯子重新擺好。

So we're experts in physical thinking already.

我們早已是物理性思維的專家，

We just don't think about our bodies very much.

我們只是不常意識到我們的身體。

We only think about them when they go wrong, so, when

我們只有在身體出問題時才想到，

比如手骨折或是心臟病發的時候，

there's a broken arm, or when you have a heart attack,

then you become really very aware of your bodies.

你才會真正意識到你的身體。

But how is it that we can start to think about using

但我們如何將編舞的思維、

choreographic thinking, kinesthetic intelligence, to arm

動覺智能

the ways in which we think about things more generally?

運用在一般性的思考當中呢？

What I thought I'd do is, I'd make a TED premiere.

我接下要做的是一場 TED 首演。

I'm not sure if this is going to be good or not.

我不知道這會不會成功，

I'll just be doing it.

就姑且一試。

I thought what I'd do is, I'd use three versions

我要做的是，

用三種物理性思維模式來做些事情。

of physical thinking to make something.

I want to introduce you. This is Paolo. This is Catarina.

向您介紹，這是保歐羅，這是卡特琳娜。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

They have no idea what we're going to do.

他們完全不知道接下來要做什麼。

So this is not the type of choreography where

這不像一般的編舞，

I already have in mind what I'm going to make,

通常我會先計畫好要做什麼，

where I've fixed the routine in my head

並先在腦中設計一套固定舞步

and I'm just going to teach it to them,

再教給他們，

and these so-called empty vessels are just going to learn it.

這些所謂的「白紙」只要學習就好，

That's not the methodology at all that we work with.

這完全不是我們要用的方法。

But what's important about it is how it is that they're

整體的重點是他們如何

grasping information, how they're taking information,

掌握資訊，接受資訊，

how they're using it, and how they're thinking with it.

使用資訊，及思考這些資訊。

I'm going to start really, really simply.

我將簡單地開始。

Usually, dance has a stimulus or stimuli, and I thought

通常舞蹈需要一個或多個刺激元素。

I'd take something simple, TED logo, we can all see it,

我要用簡單的東西， 這個 TED 標誌，我們都能看到它，

it's quite easy to work with, and I'm going to do something

很容易利用，而我要做的也很簡單。

very simply, where you take one idea from a body,

我們先從某軀體來獲得一個想法，

and it happens to be my body, and translate that

這身體剛好是我的身體，然後把那個想法

into somebody else's body,

轉移到別人身上，

so it's a direct transfer, transformation of energy.

這是一種直接轉移、是能量的轉換。

And I'm going to imagine this, you can do this too if you like,

我將如此想像，如果您願意也可以照著做。

that I'm going to just take the letter "T" and I'm going

我只用字母"T"，

to imagine it in mind, and I'm going to place that outside in

先在心中想像它， 然後把它往外置於現實世界，

the real world. So I absolutely see a letter "T" in front of me.

所以我絕對有看到一個字母"T"在我前面。

Yeah? It's absolutely there.

有吧？它絕對在那，

I can absolutely walk around it when I see it, yeah?

當我看到它，我能繞著它走，對吧？

It has a kind of a grammar. I know what I'm going to do

它有某種語法，我知道如何使用它，

with it, and I can start to describe it, so I can describe it

所以我可以開始描述它， 我可以簡單描述它，

very simply. I can describe it in my arms, right?

我可以用我的手臂描述它，

So all I did was take my hand and then I move my hand.

所以我做的是用我的手， 然後移動我的手。

I can describe it, whoa, in my head, you know? Whoa.

我可以描述它，用我的頭，你知道嗎?

Okay. I can do also my shoulder. Yeah?

也可用我的肩，瞧？

It gives me something to do, something to work towards.

它讓我有事可做，讓我發揮作用。

If I were to take that letter "T" and flatten it down

要是我把字母"T"平放在地，

on the floor, here, maybe just off the floor,

這裡，也許就是這裡，

all of a sudden I could do maybe something with my knee,

我或許可以突然用我的膝蓋，

yeah? Whoa. So If I put the knee and the arms together,

如果我膝蓋和手臂並用，

I've got something physical, yeah? And I can start to build something.

就得到某種有形的東西，開始建立某物。

So what I'm going to do just for one and a half minutes or so

接下來我要做的大約一分半鐘左右，

is I'm going to take that concept, I'm going to make something,

我要用這概念要做點什麼。

and the dancers behind me are going to interpret it,

我身後的舞者將詮釋這概念，

they're going to snapshot it, they're going to take

他們要快速理解，並採取自己的觀點。

aspects of it, and it's almost like I'm offloading memory

有點像我在卸載記憶，

and they're holding onto memory? Yeah?

而他們在承接記憶，可以嗎？

And we'll see what we come up with.

我們來看可迸出怎樣的火花。

So just have a little watch about how they're, how they're

我們可以稍微看一下他們是如何

accessing this and what they're doing,

存取記憶和怎麼做。

and I'm just going to take this letter "T," the letter "E,"

我將用字母"T"、"E"

and the letter "D," to make something. Okay. Here goes.

和"D"做點什麼。好吧。就是這樣。

So I have to get myself in the zone. Right.

我要讓自己進入狀態，可以嗎?

It's a bit of a cross of my arm.

一些手臂的交叉。

So all I'm doing is exploring this space of "T"

我所做的是探討"T"的空間，

and flashing through it with some action.

並透過行動來反射這空間。

I'm not remembering what I'm doing.

我不記得我做了什麼。

I'm just working on my task. My task is this "T."

我只是在做我的任務，而任務是"T"。

Going to watch it from the side, whoa.

我要從旁邊來看，哇。

Strike moment.

攻擊時刻。

That's it.

就是這樣。

So we're starting to build a phrase.

所以我們開始建立一個舞句。

So what they're doing, let's see, something like that,

我們來看看他們做了什麼。

so what they're doing is grasping aspects of that movement

他們所做的是去理解動作的觀點，

and they're generating it into a phrase.

然後將它創造成一個舞句。

You can see the speed is extremely quick, yeah?

您可以看到的速度非常快，是吧？

I'm not asking them to copy exactly.

我並非要求他們要完全複製，

They're using the information that they receive

他們要用收到的資訊

to generate the beginnings of a phrase.

產成一個舞句的開端。

I can watch that and that can tell me something

我可以觀察並得知

about how it is that they're moving.

舞者們如何移動。

Yeah, they're super quick, right?

他們動作超級快，對吧？

So I've taken this aspect of TED and translated it

我詮釋 TED 的觀點，

並將它轉化成有形的事物。

into something that's physical.

Some dancers, when they're watching action,

有些舞者觀察動作時

take the overall shape, the arc of the movement,

採用整體形式，即移動的弧線、

the kinetic sense of the movement,

運動知覺的移動，

and use that for memory.

並以此作為記憶。

Some work very much in specific detail.

有些則著重在具體細節，

They start with small little units and build it up.

從小單位開始然後慢慢建立。

Okay, you've got something? One more thing.

好的，都理解了嗎？再來。

So they're solving this problem for me,

他們正在為我解決這個問題。

having a little --

有一點──

They're constructing that phrase.

他們正在建構這舞句，

They have something and they're going to hold on to it,

他們有些想法要緊緊抓住。

yeah? One way of making.

可以嗎？一種創作方法。

That's going to be my beginning in this world premiere.

這將是我在世界首演的開端。

Okay. From there I'm going to do a very different thing.

好，現在我要來點不一樣的。

So basically I'm going to make a duet.

簡單來說，我要來個雙人舞。

I want you to think about them as architectural objects,

我要你們把舞者看成結構物體，

so what they are, are just pure lines.

他們只是純粹的線條，

They're no longer people, just pure lines, and I'm going

不再是人，只是線條，然後我會

to work with them almost as objects to think with, yeah?

把他們視為物體來合作，可以嗎？

So what I'm thinking about is taking

我現在想

當我移動時，做幾個身體的延展，

a few physical extensions from the body as I move, and

I move them, and I do that by suggesting things to them:

我移動的同時也提示他們一些事情，

If, then; if, then. Okay, so here we go.

如果，就這樣 ；如果，就那樣。開始吧。

Just grab this arm.

抓住這個手臂，

Can you place that down into the floor?

你可以往下放到地上嗎？

Yeah, down to the floor. Can you go underneath?

對，到地上。可以鑽到底下嗎？

Yeah. Cat, can you put leg over that side? Yeah.

卡特，可以把腿跨到這邊嗎？

Can you rotate?

你可以旋轉嗎？

Whoom, just go back to the beginning.

再從頭開始。

Here we go, ready? And ... bam, bake ... (clicks metronome)

開始囉，準備好嗎？

Great. Okay, from there, you're both getting up.

很好。你們兩位都站起來。

You're both getting up. Here we go. Good, now? Them.

都起身。他們很棒吧?

(Applause)

（掌聲）

So from there, from there, we're both getting up,

從那裡，從那裡，我們都起身，

we're both getting up, going in this direction,

都起身往這邊。

going underneath. Whoa, whoa, underneath.

往下，往下，

Whoa, underneath, whoo-um. Yeah? Underneath. Jump.

往下，可以嗎？往下。往前跳。

Underneath. Jump. Paolo, kick. Don't care where. Kick.

往下、往前跳。保歐羅，踢。儘管踢。

Kick, replace, change a leg. Kick, replace, change the leg.

踢、站好、換腿。踢、站好、換腿。

Yeah? Okay? Cat, almost get his head. Almost get his head.

可以嗎？卡特，幾乎碰到他的頭。 幾乎碰到他的頭。

Whoaa. Just after it, maybe. Whoaa, whaaay, ooh.

也許再後面些，

Grab her waist, come up back into her first, whoom, spin,

扶她的腰部，起身，旋轉，

turn her, whoo-aa. (Snaps) Great.

把她轉身，很好。

Okay, let's have a little go from the beginning of that.

好，讓我們從頭開始。

Just, let me slow down here. Fancy having eight -- (Laughter)

讓我稍微慢下來。想像有八...（笑聲）

Fancy having eight hours with me in a day.

一天有八小時這些想像都在我腦海中，

So, maybe too much. So, here we go, ready, and -- (Clicks metronome)

也許太多了。準備好，開始。

（打拍子）

(Clicks metronome)

Nice, good job. Yeah? Okay. (Applause)

很好，做得好。是吧？（掌聲）

Okay, not bad. (Applause) A little bit more?

好，還不錯。（掌聲）再來一些？

Yeah. Just a little bit more, here we go, from that place.

好，再來一些。我們從這開始。

Separate. Face the front. Separate. Face the front.

分開，面對前面。分開，面對前面。

Imagine that there's a circle in front of you, yeah?

想像有個圈圈在你前面

Avoid it. Avoid it. Whoom. Kick it out of the way.

繞過它，繞過它，把它踢出去，

Kick it out of the way. Throw it into the audience. Whoom.

把它踢出去。把它扔向觀眾。

Throw it into the audience again.

再丟一次。

We've got mental architecture, we're sharing it,

我們有個心理結構，分享它

therefore solving a problem. They're enacting it.

因而解決問題。他們正這樣做。

Let me just see that a little bit. Ready, and go.

讓我看一下。預備，開始。

(Clicks metronome)

（打拍子）

Okay, brilliant. Okay, here we go. From the beginning,

太棒了。再來一次。

can we do our phrases first? And then that.

可以先跳我們的舞句？然後再這樣。

And we're going to build something now, organize it,

我們正在建立及組織

the phrases. Here we go. Nice and slow?

這些舞句。開始。很好，慢慢來？

Ready and go ... um. (Clicks metronome)

預備，開始。（打拍子）

(Clicks metronome)

（打拍子）

The duet starts. (Clicks metronome)

雙人舞開始了。（打拍子）

(Clicks metronome)

（打拍子）

So yeah, okay, good. Okay, nice, very nice. (Applause)

好的，很好，好，很好，非常好。（掌聲）

So good. So -- (Applause)

很好。所以──（掌聲）

Okay. So that was -- (Applause)

好的。那是──（掌聲）

Well done. (Applause)

做的好。（掌聲）

That was the second way of working.

這是第二種運作方式。

The first one, body-to-body transfer, yeah,

第一種，身體對身體的轉移，對吧？

with an outside mental architecture that I work with

和一個外在的心理結構合作，

that they hold memory with for me.

而他們為我承接記憶。

The second one, which is using them as objects to think

第二種，將他們視為物體來思考

with their architectural objects, I do a series of

和結構物體，我下了一連串指令，

provocations, I say, "If this happens, then that.

「如果這樣，然後那樣」

If this, if that happens -- " I've got lots of methods like that,

若這樣，若那樣── 「我有許多像這樣的方式，

but it's very, very quick, and this is a third method.

但是非常、 非常快速」， 這是第三種方法。

They're starting it already, and this is a task-based method,

他們已經開始了， 這是以任務為主的方法，

where they have the autonomy to make

他們有自主權，

可以做所有的決定。

all of the decisions for themselves.

So I'd like us just to do, we're going to do a little

我請大家試試看，

mental dance, a little, in this little one minute,

在這短短一分鐘來點心靈舞蹈。

so what I'd love you to do is imagine,

請大家開始想像，

you can do this with your eyes closed, or open, and if you

你可閉上雙眼或者睜開，

don't want to do it you can watch them, it's up to you.

如果你不想，大可觀賞，由你決定。

Just for a second, think about that word "TED" in front of

花一秒鐘想一下"TED"在你面前，

you, so it's in mind, and it's there right in front of your mind.

它就在你腦中，就在你腦海前，

What I'd like you to do is transplant that outside

我要你把它向外移植到

into the real world, so just imagine that word "TED"

現實世界，想像一下"TED"這個字

in the real world.

在真實世界。

What I'd like you to do what that is take an aspect of it.

我要你們從某個觀點來看。

I'm going to zone in on the "E," and I'm going to

我將專注在"E"這個字，

scale that "E" so it's absolutely massive,

我要放大它，所以它很龐大，

so I'm scaling that "E" so it's absolutely massive,

我正放大"E"，所以它現在很龐大。

and then I'm going to give it dimensionality.

然後我要它是立體的，

I'm going to think about it in 3D space. So now,

我要在三度空間思考這個字，

instead of it just being a letter that's in front of me,

而非只是一個我面前的字母，

it's a space that my body can go inside of.

這是我身體可走進的空間。

I now decide where I'm going to be in that space,

我要決定我在這空間的哪邊，

so I'm down on this small part of the bottom rib

我退到"E"底邊這小小的部分，

of the letter "E," and I'm thinking about it, and I'm imagining

我正在想，我正在想像

this space that's really high and above. If I asked you to

這空間高高在上。如果我要你伸手去摸，

reach out — you don't have to literally do it, but in mind —

你不必真的伸出手，而是在心中想像

reach out to the top of the "E," where would you reach?

伸手去碰"E"的頂端，你會碰觸到哪？

If you reach with your finger, where would it be?

如果用手指，會是如何？

If you reach with your elbow, where would it be?

如果用手肘，又會怎樣？

If I already then said about that space that you're in,

如果我已向你說明你所在的空間，

let's infuse it with the color red, what does that do

現在讓紅色融入這空間，

to the body? If I then said to you, what happens if

這對身體有什麼影響嗎？如果我說

that whole wall on the side of "E" collapses and you have to

"E"內部所有牆面都倒塌了，

use your weight to put it back up,

你必須用你所有力量把它再蓋起來，

what would you be able to do with it?

你能夠怎麼做?

So this is a mental picture, I'm describing a mental,

這是一幅心理圖畫，我正在描述心理的

vivid picture that enables dancers to make choices

鮮明的畫面讓舞者能夠

自己做出選擇。

for themselves about what to make.

Okay, you can open your eyes if you had them closed.

若你剛閉上眼，可睜開了。

So the dancers have been working on them.

舞者們從剛才就這樣做，

So just keep working on them for a little second.

讓他們稍微繼續一會。

So they've been working on those mental architectures in the here.

他們一直在這裡做這些心理結構。

I know, I think we should keep them as a surprise.

我知道，我們應該讓它出人意表。

So here goes, world premiere dance. Yeah? Here we go.

這就是我們的世界首演。可以嗎？開始。

TED dance. Okay. Here it comes. I'm going to organize it quickly.

TED 舞蹈。來吧。我將迅速組織一下。

So, you're going to do the first solo that we made,

你先跳我們設計的獨舞，

yeah blah blah blah blah, we go into the duet, yeah,

很好，這樣這樣，然後雙人舞，對，

blah blah blah blah. The next solo, blah blah blah blah,

然後...下一個獨舞...這樣這樣，

yeah, and both at the same time, you do the last solutions.

兩人同時，你做最後的詮釋，

Okay? Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, world premiere,

可以嗎？好。各位女士先生，世界首演，

TED dance, three versions of physical thinking. (Applause)

TED 舞蹈，三種模式的物理思維。（掌聲）

Well, clap afterwards, let's see if it's any good, yeah? (Laughter)

先看是不是那麼好再鼓掌好嗎?（笑聲）

So yeah, let's clap -- yeah, let's clap afterwards.

讓我們鼓掌──嗯，讓我們之後再拍。

Here we go. Catarina, big moment, here we go, one.

開始，卡塔琳娜，關鍵時刻，開始，

(Clicks metronome)

（打拍子）

Here it comes, Cat. (Clicks metronome)

來囉，卡特。（打拍子）

Paolo, go. (Clicks metronome) Last you solo.

保歐羅，開始。（打拍子）最後你獨舞。

The one you made. (Clicks metronome)

你剛設計的 。（打拍子）

(Clicks metronome)

(打拍子)

Well done. Okay, good. Super. So --

做的好。好，很好，很棒。所以──

(Applause)

（掌聲）

So -- (Applause)

所以──（掌聲）

Thank you. (Applause)

謝謝。（掌聲）

So -- three versions. (Applause) Oh. (Laughs)

所以──三種模式。（掌聲）哦。（笑聲）

(Applause) Three versions of physical thinking, yeah?

（掌聲）三種物理思維模式，可以嗎？

Three versions of physical thinking. I'm hoping that today,

三種物理思維。我希望今天離開後

what you're going to do is go away and make a dance

你會開始為自己而跳，

for yourself, and if not that,

如果不是這樣，

at least misbehave more beautifully, more often.

至少更常、更漂亮地「胡鬧」一番，

Thank you very much. (Applause)

非常感謝。（掌聲）

Thank you. Thank you. (Applause)

謝謝，謝謝。（掌聲）

Here we go. (Applause)

就這樣。（掌聲）

(Applause)

（掌聲）