Marc Pachter: The art of the interview

135,219 views ・ 2009-12-09

TED


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翻译人员: Xinli Geng 校对人员: Qian Yue
00:15
The National Portrait Gallery is the place dedicated
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国家人物志致力于
00:19
to presenting great American lives,
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展现非凡的美国生活,
00:21
amazing people.
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非凡的美国人。
00:23
And that's what it's about.
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这就是它的意义所在。
00:25
We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that's it.
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我们用肖像画的手法来还原这些人的生活,如此而已。
00:29
And so I'm not going to talk about the painted portrait today.
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所以我今天要说的不是真正的肖像画。
00:33
I'm going to talk about a program I started there,
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我想谈谈一个我发起的项目,
00:36
which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.
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我一生最得意的作品。
00:41
I started to worry about the fact
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我为一个事实而忧虑
00:45
that a lot of people don't get their portraits painted anymore,
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那就是很多人终生不为人所知,
00:48
and they're amazing people,
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然而他们是非常杰出的人物,
00:50
and we want to deliver them to future generations.
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我们想把他们的故事讲给我们的后代听。
00:53
So, how do we do that?
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那么我们该怎么做呢?
00:55
And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.
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于是我想到了发起这个自画像式的系列访谈。
00:57
And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically
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基本上就是说
01:01
my being a brush in the hand
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我作为被访谈者手中的画笔
01:03
of amazing people who would come and I would interview.
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请他们通过访谈为自己画像。
01:06
And so what I'm going to do is, not so much give you
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我不会谈
01:09
the great hits of that program,
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这个节目的成功之处,
01:11
as to give you this whole notion
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我想谈的是总体上
01:13
of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,
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在这种情况下你怎样去面对这些人,
01:16
what you try to find out about them,
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你想在他们身上发掘些什么,
01:18
and when people deliver and when they don't and why.
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以及他们滔滔不绝或缄口不语的原因是什么。
01:23
Now, I had two preconditions.
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我对采访设置两个前提。
01:26
One was that they be American.
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一,受访者应该是美国人。
01:28
That's just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery,
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这是由国家人物志的定位决定的---
01:31
it's created to look at American lives.
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这是一个探讨美国人的节目。
01:34
That was easy, but then I made the decision,
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这个很容易,而之后的一个决定,
01:37
maybe arbitrary,
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也许有些武断,
01:39
that they needed to be people of a certain age,
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就是受访者应该都到了一定的年纪,
01:43
which at that point, when I created this program,
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在我立项之初,
01:45
seemed really old.
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就决定被访群体主要是老人。
01:47
Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.
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60岁,70岁,80岁,甚至90岁。
01:50
For obvious reasons, it doesn't seem that old anymore to me.
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很明显,对我来说现在他们也不算很老了。
01:52
And why did I do that?
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那么我为什么这么做呢?
01:54
Well, for one thing, we're a youth-obsessed culture.
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第一,我们生活在一个推崇年轻人的文化里。
01:56
And I thought really what we need is an elders program
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但我觉得我们更需要给长者一个舞台,
02:00
to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.
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让我们可以坐在台下聆听这些长者娓娓道来。
02:04
But the second part of it -- and the older I get,
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第二个点是——随着我的年纪加深,
02:08
the more convinced I am that that's true.
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我越来越相信这一点——
02:11
It's amazing what people will say when they know
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他们大都洞悉世事发展的方向,
02:14
how the story turned out.
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听他们讲述这些故事是一件很神奇的事情。
02:16
That's the one advantage that older people have.
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这是长者独有的智慧之一。
02:20
Well, they have other, little bit of advantage,
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好吧,做老人家还有那么点儿好处,
02:22
but they also have some disadvantages,
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当然也会有不好的地方,
02:24
but the one thing they or we have is that
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但我们的共性就是
02:26
we've reached the point in life
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我们已经到了
02:28
where we know how the story turned out.
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能够看透世事的人生阶段了。
02:31
So, we can then go back in our lives,
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所以,我们回归生活,
02:33
if we've got an interviewer who gets that,
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如果恰好有一位理解这些的访问者,
02:36
and begin to reflect on how we got there.
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那么我们就可以为他讲述一路走来的人生历程。
02:40
All of those accidents that wound up
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所有这些悲悲喜喜
02:43
creating the life narrative that we inherited.
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成就了我们今天听到的这段精彩人生。
02:46
So, I thought okay, now,
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然后我就开始想:
02:48
what is it going to take to make this work?
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那么怎么才能达到这种效果呢?
02:51
There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.
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采访有很多种,我们都知道。
02:53
There are the journalist interviews,
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有一种是记者采访,
02:55
which are the interrogation that is expected.
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这更像是盘查和质问。
02:57
This is somewhat against resistance
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某种程度上你必须应对来自被访者
02:59
and caginess on the part of the interviewee.
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的抵触情绪和外交辞令。
03:03
Then there's the celebrity interview,
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另一种是名人访谈,
03:05
where it's more important who's asking the question than who answers.
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提问者的身份往往比被访者是谁更重要。
03:08
That's Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.
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Barbara Walters以及其他一些人就属于这种,大家都很喜欢。
03:12
That's Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important
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像Frost对Nixon的访问,Frost就显得跟Nixon
03:15
as Nixon in that process.
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一样重要。
03:17
Fair enough.
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就是如此。
03:19
But I wanted interviews that were different.
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但我想要的采访跟这些不一样。
03:21
I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic,
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我希望能达到“通感“的境界,这个词是我后来想到的。
03:28
which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say
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也就是说,要能体会到他们想要说的,©
03:33
and to be an agent of their self-revelation.
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然后代替他们揭示自我。
03:37
By the way, this was always done in public.
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别忘了,这都是要在大庭广众面前完成的。
03:39
This was not an oral history program.
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这不仅仅是一个谈论历史的节目。
03:41
This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual,
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300名观众坐在被访者身边,
03:46
and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.
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而我则化身为一支描绘被访者肖像的画笔。
03:50
Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.
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结果呢,我发现我其实很擅长这件事情。
03:53
I didn't know it coming into it.
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我开始并不知道。
03:55
And the only reason I really know that
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后来意识到的唯一原因是
03:57
is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fulbright,
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我对William Fullbright参议员所做的访谈。
04:02
and that was six months after he'd had a stroke.
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那是在他中风以后6个月的时候。
04:06
And he had never appeared in public since that point.
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他自打中风后还没公开露过面。
04:08
This was not a devastating stroke,
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那次中风并不是特别严重,
04:10
but it did affect his speaking and so forth.
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但也影响到了讲话和其他一些行为。
04:13
And I thought it was worth a chance,
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我觉得他可以试着重新出来见见大家了,
04:15
he thought it was worth a chance,
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他也觉得可行,
04:17
and so we got up on the stage,
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所以我们就来到舞台上,
04:19
and we had an hour conversation about his life,
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谈了一个小时,关于他的人生,
04:22
and after that a woman rushed up to me,
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结束后,一位女士跑到我面前,
04:25
essentially did,
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确实是这样,
04:27
and she said, "Where did you train as a doctor?"
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她对我说“你在哪里接受的医疗培训?”
04:30
And I said, "I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that."
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我说:“我从来没有学过,我也从没有说过我学过啊。”
04:34
And she said, "Well, something very weird was happening.
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然后她说:“好吧,那么刚才发生的就很令人费解了。
04:38
When he started a sentence, particularly
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当他开始说一句话,
04:40
in the early parts of the interview,
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尤其是在访问的最初阶段,
04:43
and paused, you gave him the word,
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然后稍稍停顿,这时你给递给他一个词,
04:45
the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,
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这个词就像桥梁一样帮助他到达句子的结尾。
04:48
and by the end of it,
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然后到了后来,
04:50
he was speaking complete sentences on his own."
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他就开始自己说完整的句子了。“
04:53
I didn't know what was going on,
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我不知道发生了什么,
04:55
but I was so part of the process of getting that out.
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但毋庸质疑是我在帮他完成那个过程。
04:58
So I thought, okay, fine, I've got empathy,
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所以我就想,好吧,看来我已经知道怎么“通感”了。
05:02
or empathy, at any rate,
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或者说“通感”,本来就是
05:04
is what's critical to this kind of interview.
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这类访谈成功的关键。
05:06
But then I began to think of other things.
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但过后我又开始思考其他一些事情。
05:08
Who makes a great interview in this context?
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怎样的受访者可以成就一个好的访谈?
05:12
It had nothing to do with their intellect,
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这与受访者的才智没有关系,
05:14
the quality of their intellect.
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他们的智商。
05:16
Some of them were very brilliant,
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他们中有些人非常聪明,
05:18
some of them were,
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有些人
05:20
you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals,
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也就是普通人,他们也从不认为自己智慧过人,
05:23
but it was never about that.
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但这些都不重要。
05:26
It was about their energy.
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他们自身的能量才是关键。
05:29
It's energy that creates extraordinary interviews
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是这些能量造就了非凡的访谈
05:32
and extraordinary lives.
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以及非凡的人生。
05:34
I'm convinced of it.
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我对这点确信无疑。
05:36
And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.
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而且这种能量也不是那种年轻人的能量,
05:39
These were people through their 90s.
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受访者有些都已经90多岁了。
05:41
In fact, the first person I interviewed
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实际上,我所采访的第一个人
05:43
was George Abbott, who was 97,
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是George Abbott, 他当时97岁。
05:46
and Abbott was filled with the life force --
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然而Abbott充满了生命力---
05:49
I guess that's the way I think about it -- filled with it.
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我就是这样想的——充满能量。
05:51
And so he filled the room,
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然后他来到这里,
05:53
and we had an extraordinary conversation.
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就有了我们之间不同寻常的对话。
05:56
He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do
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他曾被认为是最难搞定的受访者,
05:59
because he was famous for being silent,
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因为他以沉默著称,
06:03
for never ever saying anything
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什么都不说,
06:05
except maybe a word or two.
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即便说也就一两个词而已。
06:07
And, in fact, he did wind up opening up --
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不过,实际上,他那次还的确是说了不少。
06:09
by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.
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对了,他的能量还体现在其他一些方面。
06:13
He subsequently got married again at 102,
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他后来在102岁的时候又结婚了。
06:16
so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.
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所以你就知道了,他其实是有不少生命力的。
06:20
But after the interview, I got a call,
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但那次访谈之后,我接到了一个电话,
06:22
very gruff voice, from a woman.
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很生硬的声音,是位女士。
06:26
I didn't know who she was,
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我不知道她是谁。
06:28
and she said, "Did you get George Abbott to talk?"
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她说:“你让George Abbott开口说话了?“
06:32
And I said, "Yeah. Apparently I did."
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我说:“是啊,看起来是这样。”
06:35
And she said, "I'm his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton,
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然后她说:“我是他以前的女友,Maureen Stapleton,
06:39
and I could never do it."
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我都无法让他开口。“
06:41
And then she made me go up with the tape of it
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然后她又让我把那次的录像带翻出来
06:44
and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.
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证明给她看George Abbott的确是说话了。
06:47
So, you know, you want energy,
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所以,你看,你需要那种能量,
06:49
you want the life force,
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需要生命的能量,
06:51
but you really want them also to think
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但你同时也的确需要让他们觉得
06:55
that they have a story worth sharing.
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他们的故事是值得分享的。
06:59
The worst interviews that you can ever have
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最糟糕的采访
07:02
are with people who are modest.
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就是被访者是个谦虚的人。
07:05
Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who's modest,
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千万别去采访一个谦虚的人,
07:08
because all of these people have been assembled
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因为他们本来
07:11
to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,
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是要说点东西给别人听的,但他们却坐在那里说,
07:13
"Aw, shucks, it was an accident."
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“唉算了吧,那只是个偶然事件而已。“
07:15
There's nothing that ever happens that justifies
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似乎从来没有什么能
07:19
people taking good hours of the day to be with them.
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让他们为自己做过的事情引以为豪。
07:23
The worst interview I ever did: William L. Shirer.
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我做过的最糟糕的采访是William L. Shirer.
07:26
The journalist who did "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."
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他就是“第三德国的起落”的作者。
07:31
This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months,
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这个人在6个月里先后会见了希特勒和甘地。
07:35
and every time I'd ask him about it, he'd say, "Oh, I just happened to be there.
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关于这个每次我问到他的时候,他都会说,“噢,我只是碰巧在那里而已。
07:38
Didn't matter." Whatever.
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没什么大不了的。“此类的话。
07:41
Awful.
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糟糕透了。
07:43
I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.
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我再也不会答应去采访一个谦虚的人了。
07:46
They have to think that they did something
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这些人必须先明白他们确实做过些什么,
07:48
and that they want to share it with you.
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然后他们也愿意跟你分享这些。
07:50
But it comes down, in the end,
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但归根到底
07:54
to how do you get through all the barriers we have.
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是需要你去克服所有那些障碍。
08:01
All of us are public and private beings,
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我们每个人都有公众形象和个人形象,
08:04
and if all you're going to get from the interviewee is their public self,
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如果你通过采访所能获得的只是被访者的公众形象,
08:10
there's no point in it.
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那是无济于事的。
08:12
It's pre-programmed. It's infomercial,
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公众形象是我们事先安排好的,是用来作秀的,
08:15
and we all have infomercials about our lives.
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每个人都有可以拿来秀的一面。
08:18
We know the great lines, we know the great moments,
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我们都知道那些冠冕堂皇的话,知道那些让我们感到荣耀的时刻,
08:21
we know what we're not going to share,
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也知道什么事情是不能分享的,
08:23
and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.
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关键是我们说的话不能让别人感到难堪。
08:26
This wasn't -- and some of you will remember
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这并不难——也许你们有人记得
08:28
Mike Wallace's old interviews --
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Mike Wallace以前的采访——
08:30
tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.
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采访不难,也没什么侵略性。这样的采访没什么问题。
08:33
I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say,
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但我想做的是让他们说出他们想说的话,
08:37
to break out of their own cocoon of the public self,
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让他们从公众形象的束缚中挣脱出来。
08:44
and the more public they had been,
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他们作为公众人物的时间越长,
08:46
the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.
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这种束缚就越发的根深蒂固。
08:51
And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment
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让我来告诉你们这个采访系列中
08:54
that happened in this interview series.
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最坏的和最好的时刻吧。
08:56
It all has to do with that shell that most of us have,
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这都跟罩在我们身上的这个壳儿有关系,
09:01
and particularly certain people.
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对一些人来说尤为如此。
09:04
There's an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.
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Clare Boothe Luce是位杰出的女士。
09:07
It'll be your generational determinant
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是否知道她将是你是否属于特定年代
09:10
as to whether her name means much to you.
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的一个标志。
09:13
She did so much. She was a playwright.
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她做了很多的事情。她是一个剧作家。
09:18
She did an extraordinary play called "The Women."
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写了一部出色的剧本叫做“女人们”。
09:21
She was a congresswoman
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她也是一位国会议员,
09:23
when there weren't very many congresswomen.
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那个年代女议员屈指可数。
09:26
She was editor of Vanity Fair,
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她还是《名利场》的编辑,
09:28
one of the great phenomenal women of her day.
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总之,一个在那个年代非常杰出的女性。
09:32
And, incidentally, I call her
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不经意间我开始叫她
09:35
the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.
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右翼Eleanor Roosevlt。
09:38
She was sort of adored on the Right
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她被右翼人士所爱戴,
09:40
the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.
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正像是Eleanor Roosevelt被左翼爱戴一样。
09:43
And, in fact, when we did the interview --
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事实上,在我们做访谈的时候,
09:46
I did the living self-portrait with her --
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我对她做现场自画像,
09:48
there were three former directors of the CIA
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观众中有三名前CIA的主管,
09:50
basically sitting at her feet,
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坐在下面,
09:52
just enjoying her presence.
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很享受能跟她相距咫尺的感觉。
09:55
And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake,
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我当时认为这次应该不费吹灰之力,
09:57
because I always have preliminary talks with these people
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因为我总会在开始采访之前跟被访者聊一会儿,
10:01
for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
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大概10到15分钟的样子。
10:04
We never talk before that because if you talk before,
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在那之前我们不进行交流,因为如果聊了,
10:07
you don't get it on the stage.
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真正采访的时候就出不来了。
10:09
So she and I had a delightful conversation.
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后来我们的谈话非常令人愉悦,
10:13
We were on the stage and then --
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我们坐在台上,然后——
10:16
by the way, spectacular.
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那真的棒极了。
10:18
It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce's look.
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Clare Boothe Luce打扮的美极了。
10:21
She was in a great evening gown.
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她穿着漂亮的晚礼服,
10:24
She was 80, almost that day of the interview,
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采访当天她马上就要80岁了。
10:27
and there she was and there I was,
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她和我坐在那里,
10:29
and I just proceeded into the questions.
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我开始提问,®
10:31
And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.
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然后她就开始很不配合。真是难以置信。
10:36
Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss,
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我问的任何问题都被她回避掉,
10:41
and I was basically up there -- any of you
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我基本上就被晾在那里——你们中任何一个
10:43
in the moderate-to-full entertainment world
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了解娱乐节目的人都知道
10:45
know what it is to die onstage.
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什么是冷场。
10:48
And I was dying. She was absolutely not giving me a thing.
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我就被冷在那里了。她什么都不肯说。
10:53
And I began to wonder what was going on,
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然后我开始思考到底发生了什么。
10:55
and you think while you talk,
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一边说一边思考。
10:57
and basically, I thought, I got it.
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然后我真的想明白了。
11:00
When we were alone, I was her audience.
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当我们单独交谈的时候,我是她的听众。
11:04
Now I'm her competitor for the audience.
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但在台上我变成了她争取台下听众的竞争对手。
11:06
That's the problem here, and she's fighting me for that,
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这就是问题所在,她在跟我竞争。
11:10
and so then I asked her a question --
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所以当我问她一个问题,
11:12
I didn't know how I was going to get out of it --
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我不知道将得到什么样的回答。
11:14
I asked her a question about her days as a playwright,
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我问她关于剧作家的生活,
11:20
and again, characteristically,
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这就是她的典型回答:
11:22
instead of saying, "Oh yes, I was a playwright, and this is what blah blah blah,"
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她不是说:“嗯,我曾经是一名剧作家,如此这般,”
11:25
she said, "Oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.
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而是说:“噢,剧作家啊。人人都知道我曾是个剧作家啊。
11:28
Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress."
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很多人以为我还当过演员,其实我从来没有当过演员。“
11:32
But I hadn't asked that, and then she went off on a tear,
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但我并没有问关于演员的事情,然后她就开始掉眼泪,
11:36
and she said, "Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.
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继续说道:“嗯,其实,我有段时间的确是一名演员。
11:39
It was for a charity in Connecticut when I was a congresswoman,
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那是在当议员的时候为了康涅狄格的一次慈善活动,
11:42
and I got up there," and she went on and on, "And then I got on the stage."
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我就上去了,“然后她继续说,”我就上了舞台。“
11:45
And then she turned to me and said,
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接着她转向我说,
11:47
"And you know what those young actors did?
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“你知道那些演员都做了什么吗?
11:50
They upstaged me." And she said, "Do you know what that is?"
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他们对我很势力。“然后她又说,”你知道那是什么吗?“
11:52
Just withering in her contempt.
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我被她这种不屑的态度搞得有些气馁,
11:54
And I said, "I'm learning."
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于是就说,“我正在学习”
11:56
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
11:58
And she looked at me, and it was like the successful arm-wrestle,
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然后她看着我,就好像赢了一场掰手腕比赛。
12:03
and then, after that, she delivered an extraordinary account
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接下来,她终于开口讲述
12:07
of what her life really was like.
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她真正的生活是什么样子的,讲得非常精彩。
12:09
I have to end that one. This is my tribute to Clare Boothe Luce.
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这个故事我必须到此为止了。算是我向Clare Boothe Luce贡献的小小礼物吧。
12:12
Again, a remarkable person.
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再说一遍,她是个杰出的人。
12:14
I'm not politically attracted to her, but through her life force,
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我对她的政见并不感冒,但她身上散发的生命力,
12:17
I'm attracted to her.
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吸引着我。
12:20
And the way she died -- she had, toward the end, a brain tumor.
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她辞世的方式——她是因为晚期脑瘤去世的
12:25
That's probably as terrible a way to die as you can imagine,
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她可能是你能想到的最坏的离开方式了。
12:28
and very few of us were invited to a dinner party.
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极少的几个人被邀请到她的晚餐聚会,
12:34
And she was in horrible pain.
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当时她处在强烈的疼痛之中,
12:36
We all knew that.
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这我们都知道。
12:38
She stayed in her room.
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她待在自己的房里,
12:41
Everybody came. The butler passed around canapes.
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客人都来了。管家给大家分发鱼子面包,
12:43
The usual sort of thing.
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很稀松平常的东西。
12:46
Then at a certain moment, the door opened
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然后到了某个时刻,门打开了,
12:49
and she walked out perfectly dressed, completely composed.
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她走了出来,打扮得一丝不苟,而且非常镇定。
12:53
The public self, the beauty, the intellect,
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她的公众形象,她的美丽,她的智慧。
12:57
and she walked around and talked to every person there
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然后她走向大家,跟每个人进行交谈,
13:01
and then went back into the room and was never seen again.
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然后走回房间,从此再也没有人见过她。
13:04
She wanted the control of her final moment, and she did it amazingly.
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她希望掌控自己的最后时刻,她做到了,而且让人赞叹。
13:10
Now, there are other ways that you get somebody to open up,
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其实还有一些别的方法能让受访者敞开心扉,
13:14
and this is just a brief reference.
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这里我只能简单的提一下。
13:18
It wasn't this arm-wrestle,
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这个并不像刚才说过的“掰手腕”,
13:20
but it was a little surprising for the person involved.
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但也能让受访者感到出乎意料。
13:22
I interviewed Steve Martin. It wasn't all that long ago.
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我采访过Steve Martin。那是在很久以前了。
13:26
And we were sitting there,
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我们坐在那里,
13:28
and almost toward the beginning of the interview,
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采访刚刚开始,
13:31
I turned to him and I said, "Steve," or "Mr. Martin,
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我问他:“Steve” 或者“Martin先生,
13:36
it is said that all comedians have unhappy childhoods.
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人们都说所有的喜剧演员都有着不愉快的童年,
13:42
Was yours unhappy?"
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你的童年是否也是这样?“
13:44
And he looked at me, you know, as if to say,
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他看着我,就像是在说,
13:47
"This is how you're going to start this thing, right off?"
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”怎么一上来就问这个问题呢?“
13:50
And then he turned to me, not stupidly,
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然后他看着我,一点也不傻,
13:52
and he said, "What was your childhood like?"
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反问道,”那么你的童年是什么样子的?“
13:56
And I said -- these are all arm wrestles, but they're affectionate --
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这些都是”掰手腕“,但是很真诚。我回答说,
13:59
and I said, "My father was loving and supportive,
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”我的父亲很慈爱,也很支持我,
14:02
which is why I'm not funny."
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所以我现在这么无趣。“
14:04
(Laughter)
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(笑声)
14:06
And he looked at me, and then we heard the big sad story.
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然后他看着我,开始讲述他的伤心故事。
14:10
His father was an SOB,
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他的父亲是一个大混蛋,
14:12
and, in fact, he was another comedian with an unhappy childhood,
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事实上,他也是个有着不幸童年的喜剧演员,
14:16
but then we were off and running.
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然后我们就开始跑题了。
14:19
So the question is:
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问题在于:
14:20
What is the key that's going to allow this to proceed?
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是什么启动了这个过程?
14:23
Now, these are arm wrestle questions,
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这些确实是”掰手腕“的问题,
14:25
but I want to tell you about questions
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但我想告诉你们的是
14:28
that are more related to empathy
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那些由”通感“而引发的问题,
14:31
and that really, very often, are the questions
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那些问题往往是
14:34
that people have been waiting their whole lives to be asked.
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人们等待了一辈子想要被问到的问题。
14:37
And I'll just give you two examples of this because of the time constraints.
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时间关系我就只举两个例子吧。
14:41
One was an interview I did with one of the great American biographers.
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第一个是我对那位伟大的美国传记文学家所做的采访。
14:47
Again, some of you will know him, most of you won't, Dumas Malone.
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他叫Dumas Malone。你们有些人可能知道他,大多数可能并不知道。
14:49
He did a five-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson,
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他为Thomas Jefferson写了一部五卷的传记,
14:53
spent virtually his whole life with Thomas Jefferson,
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几乎一生都跟Thomas Jefferson在一起。
14:58
and by the way, at one point I asked him,
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对了,采访的时候我曾问他,
15:00
"Would you like to have met him?"
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”你觉得遇到他幸运吗?“
15:02
And he said, "Well, of course,
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他说,“当然了。
15:04
but actually, I know him better than anyone who ever met him,
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但实际上,我比谁都要了解他,
15:07
because I got to read all of his letters."
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因为我看过他所有的信件。“
15:09
So, he was very satisfied with the kind of relationship they had over 50 years.
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也就是说,他对他们之间50年的关系非常满意。
15:15
And I asked him one question.
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然后我问了他一个问题。
15:18
I said, "Did Jefferson ever disappoint you?"
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我说,”Jefferson有没有让你失望过?“
15:22
And here is this man who had given his whole life to uncovering Jefferson
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这个花了毕生精力来研究Jefferson
15:27
and connecting with him,
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并与他进行沟通的传记学者
15:29
and he said, "Well ..." -- I'm going to do a bad southern accent.
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回答道,“嗯——” 这里我准备拙劣的模仿一下南部口音,
15:34
Dumas Malone was from Mississippi originally.
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Dumas Malone的家乡在密西西比,
15:37
But he said, "Well," he said, "I'm afraid so."
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他回答道,“嗯——恐怕是的。”
15:41
He said, "You know, I've read everything,
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他说,“你知道吗,我看过他所有的东西,
15:44
and sometimes Mr. Jefferson would smooth the truth a bit."
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有时候Jefferson先生会稍微隐瞒一下事情的真相。”
15:52
And he basically was saying that this was a man
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其实他就是在说Jefferson
15:55
who lied more than he wished he had,
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不比他原以为的那么诚实,
15:58
because he saw the letters.
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因为他看过那些信件。
16:00
He said, "But I understand that." He said, "I understand that."
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他说,“但我理解,”他说,“我理解。”
16:04
He said, "We southerners do like a smooth surface,
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他说,“我们南方人喜欢表面看上去光鲜一些,
16:09
so that there were times when he just didn't want the confrontation."
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于是会有一些时候他不想要太多的正面冲突。”
16:13
And he said, "Now, John Adams was too honest."
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然后他又说,“你看,John Adams就过于诚实了。”
16:17
And he started to talk about that, and later on he invited me to his house,
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然后他开始说关于John Adams的事情。后来他邀请我去他家里,
16:20
and I met his wife who was from Massachusetts,
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我见到了他的妻子,她来自马萨诸塞州,
16:22
and he and she had exactly the relationship
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他们俩人之间的关系
16:25
of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
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跟Jefferson和Adams的关系一模一样。
16:28
She was the New Englander and abrasive,
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她来自新英格兰地区,说话很生硬率直,
16:30
and he was this courtly fellow.
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而他则是一个彬彬有礼的人。
16:33
But really the most important question I ever asked,
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但那个问题的确是我所问过的最重要的一个问题。
16:36
and most of the times when I talk about it,
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大多数时候,当我提到这个的时候,
16:39
people kind of suck in their breath at my audacity, or cruelty,
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人们会因为我的大胆,或者说残酷而倒吸一口冷气,
16:44
but I promise you it was the right question.
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但相信我,那绝对是该问的问题。
16:48
This was to Agnes de Mille.
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下面要说的是Agnes de Mille.
16:51
Agnes de Mille is one of the great choreographers in our history.
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Agnes de Mille是历史上最杰出的舞蹈编导之一。
16:55
She basically created the dances in "Oklahoma,"
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她创作了“俄克拉荷马”,
16:59
transforming the American theater.
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从而改变了整个美国的舞台剧。
17:01
An amazing woman.
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令人惊叹的女人。
17:03
At the time that I proposed to her that --
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当初我向她提出——
17:08
by the way, I would have proposed to her; she was extraordinary --
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顺便说一句,我没准真会向她求婚,她是那么的与众不同——
17:10
but proposed to her that she come on.
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我邀请她过来接受采访,
17:12
She said, "Come to my apartment."
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她说,“到我的公寓来吧。”
17:14
She lived in New York.
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她住在纽约,
17:16
"Come to my apartment and we'll talk for those 15 minutes,
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“到这里来,我们先聊15分钟,
17:20
and then we'll decide whether we proceed."
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然后再决定是否继续。”
17:22
And so I showed up in this dark, rambling New York apartment,
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所以我就去了那个黑暗杂乱的纽约公寓,
17:27
and she called out to me, and she was in bed.
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听到她叫我,她躺在床上。
17:30
I had known that she had had a stroke,
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我之前已经知道她中过风,
17:32
and that was some 10 years before.
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大概10年以前,
17:34
And so she spent almost all of her life in bed,
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所以她的生命大部分时间都是在床上度过的。
17:39
but -- I speak of the life force --
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然而——我要说的是生命力——
17:41
her hair was askew.
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她的头发是杂乱的,
17:43
She wasn't about to make up for this occasion.
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她并没有为采访而化妆。
17:46
And she was sitting there surrounded by books,
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她坐在那里,被书籍所包围,
17:49
and her most interesting possession she felt at that moment
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她认为她当时拥有的最有趣的东西
17:53
was her will, which she had by her side.
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是她的遗嘱,就放在她手边。
17:59
She wasn't unhappy about this. She was resigned.
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她对此并不满意,但她屈服了。
18:03
She said, "I keep this will by my bed, memento mori,
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她说,“我把遗嘱放在床边,它是死亡的象征,
18:09
and I change it all the time
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我不停的修改它,
18:12
just because I want to."
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我就是想这么做。”
18:14
And she was loving the prospect of death as much as she had loved life.
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她对生死一样热爱。
18:19
I thought, this is somebody I've got to get in this series.
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当时我就想,一定要把她放在我的采访系列中。
18:22
She agreed.
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她同意了。
18:24
She came on. Of course she was wheelchaired on.
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她出来了,当然是坐着轮椅出来的。
18:27
Half of her body was stricken, the other half not.
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她受中风影响,半身不遂,
18:30
She was, of course, done up for the occasion,
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当然她做好了访谈的准备,
18:33
but this was a woman in great physical distress.
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但她承受着巨大的肉体折磨。
18:37
And we had a conversation,
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然后我们开始交谈,
18:40
and then I asked her this unthinkable question.
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我问了她一个意想不到的问题。
18:43
I said, "Was it a problem for you in your life that you were not beautiful?"
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我说,“你曾因为自己不漂亮而感到困扰吗?”
18:52
And the audience just -- you know,
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在场的观众——你也知道,
18:55
they're always on the side of the interviewee,
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他们总是站在受访者一边,
18:58
and they felt that this was a kind of assault,
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他们觉得这个问题有攻击性,
19:01
but this was the question she had
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但这个问题是她一生
19:03
wanted somebody to ask her whole life.
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一直想要被问到的问题。
19:06
And she began to talk about her childhood, when she was beautiful,
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然后她就开始讲述她的童年,那时她还很漂亮,
19:11
and she literally turned -- here she was, in this broken body --
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然后她转身——尽管她的身体很虚弱——
19:14
and she turned to the audience and
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她转向观众,
19:17
described herself as the fair demoiselle
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把她自己描述成一名待嫁的少女,
19:19
with her red hair and her light steps and so forth,
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一头红发,脚步轻盈,如此这般,
19:25
and then she said, "And then puberty hit."
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然后她接着说,“在那之后青春期就到了。”
19:28
And she began to talk about things that had happened
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然后她开始讲述
19:30
to her body and her face,
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发生在她身上和脸上的事情,
19:32
and how she could no longer count on her beauty,
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她从此不能再指望她的长相了,
19:36
and her family then treated her like the ugly sister of the beautiful one
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她的家人从此只把她当成一个丑小鸭,
19:43
for whom all the ballet lessons were given.
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她漂亮的姐妹们都去上芭蕾课,
19:45
And she had to go along just to be with her sister for company,
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而她只能陪她们一同前往。
19:50
and in that process, she made a number of decisions.
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就在那段时间,她做了一些决定。
19:53
First of all, was that dance, even though
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第一个就是,尽管她不能上跳舞课,
19:55
it hadn't been offered to her, was her life.
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跳舞仍会是她的生命。
19:57
And secondly, she had better be,
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第二,尽管她以前是跳舞的,
19:59
although she did dance for a while, a choreographer
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但如果能成为一名编舞就更好了,
20:01
because then her looks didn't matter.
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因为那样的话她长什么样都无所谓了。
20:04
But she was thrilled to get that out as a real, real fact in her life.
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童年的梦想终于成真的时候,她激动不已。
20:11
It was an amazing privilege to do this series.
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能完成这一系列访谈是我的幸运。
20:16
There were other moments like that, very few moments of silence.
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类似的时刻还有一些,很少的一些让人默然的时刻。
20:22
The key point was empathy
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关键所在就是要产生“通感”,
20:25
because everybody in their lives
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因为每个人在他们的生命里
20:29
is really waiting for people to ask them questions,
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都在等待一些问题,
20:33
so that they can be truthful about who they are
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这样他们就能坚持真实的自我,
20:35
and how they became what they are,
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以及他们是如何成为今天的自己的。
20:38
and I commend that to you, even if you're not doing interviews.
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我建议你们,即便你们不做采访,
20:42
Just be that way with your friends
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对自己的朋友也试着这么去做,
20:44
and particularly the older members of your family.
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尤其是对家里的长辈。
20:47
Thank you very much.
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非常感谢!
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