Marc Pachter: The art of the interview

135,165 views ・ 2009-12-09

TED


μ•„λž˜ μ˜λ¬Έμžλ§‰μ„ λ”λΈ”ν΄λ¦­ν•˜μ‹œλ©΄ μ˜μƒμ΄ μž¬μƒλ©λ‹ˆλ‹€.

λ²ˆμ—­: Surie Lee κ²€ν† : Seo Rim Kim
00:15
The National Portrait Gallery is the place dedicated
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ꡭ립 μ΄ˆμƒν™” κ°€λŸ¬λ¦¬λŠ”
00:19
to presenting great American lives,
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μœ„λŒ€ν•œ 미ꡭ인의 μ‚Άκ³Ό λ†€λΌμš΄ 인물듀을
00:21
amazing people.
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보여주기 μœ„ν•œ κ³³μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:23
And that's what it's about.
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λ°”λ‘œ 그곳의 쑴재 μ΄μœ μ§€μš”.
00:25
We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that's it.
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μ΄ˆμƒν™”λ₯Ό 삢을 μ „λ‹¬ν•˜λŠ” ν†΅λ‘œλ‘œ μ‚¬μš©ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ, 그것 λΏμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:29
And so I'm not going to talk about the painted portrait today.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ˜€λŠ˜μ€ μ΄ˆμƒν™”μ— λŒ€ν•΄ μ΄μ•ΌκΈ°ν•˜μ§€ μ•Šμ„ κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:33
I'm going to talk about a program I started there,
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λŒ€μ‹  μ œκ°€ μ‹œμž‘ν•œ ν”„λ‘œκ·Έλž¨μ— λŒ€ν•΄ μ΄μ•ΌκΈ°ν•˜κ³ μž ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:36
which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.
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μ œκ°€ ν•œ 일 μ€‘μ—μ„œ κ°€μž₯ μžλž‘μŠ€λŸ½κ²Œ μ—¬κΈ°λŠ” μΌμ΄μ§€μš”.
00:41
I started to worry about the fact
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μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄ 더 이상 μžμ‹ μ˜ μ΄ˆμƒν™”λ₯Ό 그리지 μ•ŠλŠ”
00:45
that a lot of people don't get their portraits painted anymore,
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ν˜„μƒμ„ κ±±μ •ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:48
and they're amazing people,
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그리고 μš°λ¦¬μ—κ²ŒλŠ” ν›„μ†μ—κ²Œ
00:50
and we want to deliver them to future generations.
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남기고 싢은 μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄ μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:53
So, how do we do that?
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자, μš°λ¦¬κ°€ μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ ν•΄μ•Ό ν• κΉŒμš”?
00:55
And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ €λŠ” μ‚΄μ•„μžˆλŠ” μžν™”μƒ μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆλ₯Ό κΈ°νšν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:57
And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically
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μ‚΄μ•„μžˆλŠ” μžν™”μƒ μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆλŠ” 기본적으둜
01:01
my being a brush in the hand
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μ œκ°€ 인터뷰 ν•  μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ˜ 손에 μ₯μ–΄μ§„
01:03
of amazing people who would come and I would interview.
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뢓이 λ˜μ–΄ μ£ΌλŠ” κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:06
And so what I'm going to do is, not so much give you
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μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„λ“€μ΄ λ³΄μ‹œκΈ°μ—λŠ” 제 아이디어가
01:09
the great hits of that program,
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μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ μ‚¬λžŒμ„ λ§Œλ‚˜κ³ 
01:11
as to give you this whole notion
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μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ μ΄ν•΄ν•˜λ €κ³  ν•˜λŠ”μ§€μ— λŒ€ν•΄,
01:13
of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,
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μ–Έμ œ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄ λ§ν•˜κ³ , λ§ν•˜μ§€ μ•ŠλŠ”μ§€, 또 μ™œ κ·ΈλŸ°μ§€
01:16
what you try to find out about them,
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μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ κ±°μ°½ν•˜κ²Œ μ„€λͺ…ν•˜λŠ” κ°œλ…μ²˜λŸΌ
01:18
and when people deliver and when they don't and why.
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μ„±κ³΅μ μœΌλ‘œ λ³΄μ΄μ§€λŠ” μ•Šμ„ κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:23
Now, I had two preconditions.
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μ €μ—κ²ŒλŠ” 두 가지 μ „μ œ 쑰건이 μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:26
One was that they be American.
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μ²«μ§ΈλŠ” λ―Έκ΅­μΈλ§Œμ„ λŒ€μƒμœΌλ‘œ ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:28
That's just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery,
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μ™œλƒν•˜λ©΄, ꡭ립 μ΄ˆμƒν™” λ―Έμˆ κ΄€μ˜ 쑴재 이유이기 λ•Œλ¬Έμ΄μ§€μš”.
01:31
it's created to look at American lives.
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ꡭ립 μ΄ˆμƒν™” λ―Έμˆ κ΄€μ€ 미ꡭ의 삢을 듀여닀보기 μœ„ν•΄ λ§Œλ“€μ–΄μ§„ κ³³μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:34
That was easy, but then I made the decision,
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μ‰¬μš΄ μΌμ΄μ§€λ§Œ, 결정을 λ‚΄λ €μ•Ό ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:37
maybe arbitrary,
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자의적인 κΈ°μ€€μΌμ§€λŠ” λͺ¨λ₯΄μ§€λ§Œ,
01:39
that they needed to be people of a certain age,
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λŒ€μƒμžλ“€μ„ νŠΉμ •ν•œ μ—°λ ΉλŒ€λ‘œ ν•œμ •ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:43
which at that point, when I created this program,
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μ œκ°€ 이 ν”„λ‘œκ·Έλž¨μ„ λ§Œλ“€μ—ˆμ„ λ•Œμ˜ κΈ°μ€€μœΌλ‘œ
01:45
seemed really old.
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κ½€ λŠ™μ€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
01:47
Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.
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60λŒ€λΆ€ν„° 90λŒ€μ— 이λ₯΄λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:50
For obvious reasons, it doesn't seem that old anymore to me.
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사싀 그리 λŠ™μ—ˆλ‹€κ³  μƒκ°ν•˜μ§€λŠ” μ•ŠμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:52
And why did I do that?
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μ™œ κ·ΈλŸ΄κΉŒμš”?
01:54
Well, for one thing, we're a youth-obsessed culture.
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κΈ€μŽ„μš”, ν•œ 가지 μ΄μœ λŠ” ν˜„μž¬λŠ” μ Šμ€μ΄λ“€μ˜ λ¬Έν™”κ°€ 널리 퍼져 μžˆμ–΄
01:56
And I thought really what we need is an elders program
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λ‚˜μ΄ λ“  μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ„ μœ„ν•΄
02:00
to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.
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μœ„λŒ€ν•œ 인물의 이야기λ₯Ό λ“£κΈ° μœ„ν•œ ν”„λ‘œκ·Έλž¨μ΄ ν•„μš”ν•˜λ‹€κ³  μƒκ°ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:04
But the second part of it -- and the older I get,
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λ‹€λ₯Έ μ΄μœ λ‘œλŠ” μ œκ°€ λ‚˜μ΄κ°€ λ“€μ–΄κ°ˆμˆ˜λ‘
02:08
the more convinced I am that that's true.
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λ‚˜μ΄λŠ” μˆ«μžμ— λΆˆκ³Όν•˜λ‹€λŠ” 생각이 λ“­λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:11
It's amazing what people will say when they know
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이야기가 펼쳐질 λ•Œλ§ˆλ‹€
02:14
how the story turned out.
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그듀이 λ§ν•˜λŠ” λ‚΄μš©μ€ λ†€λžμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:16
That's the one advantage that older people have.
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λ‚˜μ΄ λ“  μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄ 가지고 μžˆλŠ” μœ λ¦¬ν•œ μ μ΄μ§€μš”.
02:20
Well, they have other, little bit of advantage,
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λ¬Όλ‘  μœ λ¦¬ν•œ 점도 μžˆμ§€λ§Œ,
02:22
but they also have some disadvantages,
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λΆˆλ¦¬ν•œ 점도 μ—­μ‹œ μžˆμ§€μš”.
02:24
but the one thing they or we have is that
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‚˜ μš°λ¦¬κ°€ 가지고 μžˆλŠ” μœ λ¦¬ν•œ 점 ν•œ κ°€μ§€λŠ”
02:26
we've reached the point in life
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” μΈμƒμ˜ ν•œ 지점에 λ„λ‹¬ν–ˆλ‹€λŠ” κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:28
where we know how the story turned out.
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이야기가 μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ μ™„μ„±λ˜μ–΄ μ™”λŠ”μ§€ μ•„λŠ” κ·Έκ³³μ—μš”.
02:31
So, we can then go back in our lives,
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μš°λ¦¬λŠ” 삢을 λŒμ•„λ³Ό 수 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:33
if we've got an interviewer who gets that,
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그곳에 λ„λ‹¬ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒμ΄ μžˆλ‹€λ©΄
02:36
and begin to reflect on how we got there.
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μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ 그곳에 이λ₯Ό 것인지 이야기λ₯Ό μ‹œμž‘ν•  수 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:40
All of those accidents that wound up
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μƒμ²˜λ₯Ό μ€€ 사건듀은 λͺ¨λ‘
02:43
creating the life narrative that we inherited.
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μš°λ¦¬μ—κ²Œ 전해진 μΈμƒμ˜ 이야기λ₯Ό κ΅¬μ„±ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:46
So, I thought okay, now,
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자, 이제,
02:48
what is it going to take to make this work?
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이 μž‘μ—…μ„ μ™„μ„±ν•˜κΈ° μœ„ν•΄ 무엇을 ν•΄μ•Ό ν• κΉŒμš”?
02:51
There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.
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μΈν„°λ·°μ—λŠ” λ§Žμ€ μ’…λ₯˜κ°€ μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€. 잘 μ•Œκ³  μžˆλ“―μ΄ 말이죠.
02:53
There are the journalist interviews,
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미리 λ§žμΆ°λ†“μ€ μ§ˆλ¬Έμ§€λ‘œ κ΅¬μ„±λœ
02:55
which are the interrogation that is expected.
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기자의 인터뷰가 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:57
This is somewhat against resistance
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μ–΄λŠ 정도 κ±°λΆ€λ°˜μ‘κ³Ό
02:59
and caginess on the part of the interviewee.
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ν—ˆμˆ ν•¨μ„ 보이지 μ•ŠμœΌλ €λŠ” κΈ΄μž₯감을 κ°€μ§‘λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:03
Then there's the celebrity interview,
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그리고 유λͺ…μΈμ‚¬μ˜ 인터뷰가 μžˆμ§€μš”.
03:05
where it's more important who's asking the question than who answers.
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λˆ„κ°€ λŒ€λ‹΅ν•˜λƒ λ³΄λ‹€λŠ” λˆ„κ°€ μ§ˆλ¬Έμ„ λ˜μ§€λŠλƒκ°€ 더 μ€‘μš”ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:08
That's Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.
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μš°λ¦¬κ°€ μ’‹μ•„ν•˜λŠ” 바바라 μ›”ν„°μŠ€μ™€ λ‹€λ₯Έ μ΄λ“€μ²˜λŸΌ λ§μ΄μ§€μš”.
03:12
That's Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important
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ν”„λ‘œμŠ€νŠΈ-λ‹‰μŠ¨ 인터뷰도 λ‹‰μŠ¨λ§ŒνΌμ΄λ‚˜ ν”„λ‘œμŠ€νŠΈκ°€
03:15
as Nixon in that process.
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μ€‘μš”ν•œ κ²ƒμœΌλ‘œ λ³΄μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:17
Fair enough.
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κ³΅ν‰ν•œκ±°μ£ .
03:19
But I wanted interviews that were different.
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ μ €λŠ” λ‹€λ₯Έ λ°©μ‹μ˜ 인터뷰λ₯Ό μ›ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:21
I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic,
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λ‚˜μ€‘μ— 생각해 λ³΄λ‹ˆ, 힘 μžˆλŠ” 인터뷰λ₯Ό μ›ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:28
which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say
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즉, 그듀이 λ§ν•˜κ³  μ‹Άμ–΄ν•˜λŠ” 것을 λ§ν•˜κ³  느끼게 ν•˜λŠ” 것이죠.
03:33
and to be an agent of their self-revelation.
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λ˜ν•œ 슀슀둜λ₯Ό λ“œλŸ¬λ‚΄κ²Œ ν•˜λŠ” λŒ€λ³€μž 역할을 ν•˜κΈ° μ›ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:37
By the way, this was always done in public.
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μΈν„°λ·°λŠ” 항상 λŒ€μ€‘ μ•žμ—μ„œ μ§„ν–‰λ˜μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:39
This was not an oral history program.
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말둜 λ– λ“œλŠ” 역사 μ‹œκ°„μ΄ μ•„λ‹ˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:41
This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual,
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μ•½ 300λͺ…μ˜ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄ λ³΄λŠ” μ•žμ—μ„œ
03:46
and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.
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μ €λ₯Ό 톡해 인터뷰 λŒ€μƒμžμ˜ μ΄ˆμƒν™”λ₯Ό κ·Έλ¦¬λŠ” μ‹œκ°„μ΄μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
03:50
Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.
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μ΄μ œμ•Ό μ œκ°€ μ•„μ£Ό μž˜ν•΄λƒˆλ‹€λŠ” 것을 κΉ¨λ‹¬μ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:53
I didn't know it coming into it.
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μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ 될 쀄은 λͺ°λžμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
03:55
And the only reason I really know that
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μ œκ°€ κ·Έ 사싀을 μ•Œκ²Œ 된 것은
03:57
is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fulbright,
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μƒμ›μ˜μ› μœŒλ¦¬μ—„ ν’€λΈŒλΌμ΄νŠΈμ™€μ˜ 인터뷰λ₯Ό ν†΅ν•΄μ„œμ˜€μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
04:02
and that was six months after he'd had a stroke.
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κ·Έμ—κ²Œ λ‡Œμ‘Έμ¦μ΄ 온이 6κ°œμ›” ν›„μ˜€μ§€μš”.
04:06
And he had never appeared in public since that point.
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λ‹Ήμ‹œ κ·ΈλŠ” λŒ€μ€‘λ“€ μ•žμ— μ ˆλŒ€ λ‚˜νƒ€λ‚˜μ§€ μ•Šμ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
04:08
This was not a devastating stroke,
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μ‹¬κ°ν•œ λ‡Œμ‘Έμ¦μ€ μ•„λ‹ˆμ—ˆμ§€λ§Œ
04:10
but it did affect his speaking and so forth.
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μ–Έμˆ  등에 영ν–₯을 미치긴 ν–ˆμ§€μš”.
04:13
And I thought it was worth a chance,
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μ €λŠ” κ·Έ λ•Œκ°€ 기회라고 μƒκ°ν–ˆκ³ ,
04:15
he thought it was worth a chance,
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μœŒλ¦¬μ—„λ„ κ·Έλ ‡κ²Œ μƒκ°ν–ˆκΈ°μ—
04:17
and so we got up on the stage,
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μš°λ¦¬λŠ” λ¬΄λŒ€μ— 올라
04:19
and we had an hour conversation about his life,
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ν•œ μ‹œκ°„ λ™μ•ˆ 그의 삢에 λŒ€ν•΄ 이야기λ₯Ό λ‚˜λˆ„μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
04:22
and after that a woman rushed up to me,
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κ°‘μžκΈ° ν•œ μ—¬μžλΆ„μ΄ 제게 ν™©κΈ‰νžˆ λ›°μ–΄μ™€μ„œλŠ”
04:25
essentially did,
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μ •λ§λ‘œ κΈ‰ν•˜κ²Œ 달렀왔죠,
04:27
and she said, "Where did you train as a doctor?"
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"μ–΄λ””μ„œ μ˜μ‚¬ μˆ˜λ ¨μ„ λ°›μœΌμ…¨λ‚˜μš”?"라고 λ¬Όμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
04:30
And I said, "I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that."
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"μ €λŠ” μ˜μ‚¬ μˆ˜λ ¨μ„ 받은 적이 μ—†μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€. κ·Έλ ‡κ²Œ λ§ν•œ 적도 μ—†κ³ μš”."라고 λ‹΅ν–ˆμ§€μš”.
04:34
And she said, "Well, something very weird was happening.
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그러자 κ·Έλ…€λŠ” "κ·Έλž˜μš”? μ‹ κΈ°ν•œ 일이 λ²Œμ–΄μ‘Œκ΅°μš”.
04:38
When he started a sentence, particularly
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μœŒλ¦¬μ—„μ΄ 말을 μ‹œμž‘ν•  λ•Œ, 특히
04:40
in the early parts of the interview,
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인터뷰 μ΄ˆλ°˜μ—λŠ”
04:43
and paused, you gave him the word,
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μž μ‹œ λ©ˆμΆ”μ—ˆλ‹€κ°€ 당신이 λ¬Έμž₯을 μ™„μ„±μ‹œν‚¬ 수 μžˆλŠ”
04:45
the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,
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연결고리가 λ˜λŠ” 단어λ₯Ό μ œμ‹œν•˜λ©΄
04:48
and by the end of it,
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λκΉŒμ§€
04:50
he was speaking complete sentences on his own."
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슀슀둜 μ™„μ „ν•œ λ¬Έμž₯을 말할 수 μžˆλ”κ΅°μš”."
04:53
I didn't know what was going on,
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μ €λŠ” 무슨 일이 λ²Œμ–΄μ§€λŠ” 지 λͺ°λžμ§€μš”.
04:55
but I was so part of the process of getting that out.
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ μ €λŠ” κ·Έ 일련 κ³Όμ •μ˜ ν•œ λΆ€λΆ„μ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
04:58
So I thought, okay, fine, I've got empathy,
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ €λŠ” μ €μ—κ²Œ κ³΅κ°ν•˜λŠ” λŠ₯λ ₯이 μžˆλ‹€λŠ” 것을 μ•Œμ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:02
or empathy, at any rate,
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λ˜λŠ” μ–΄λŠ 정도라도 κ³΅κ°ν•œλ‹€λ©΄
05:04
is what's critical to this kind of interview.
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인터뷰에 μžˆμ–΄ 맀우 μ€‘μš”ν•œ 영ν–₯을 λΌμΉœλ‹€λŠ” 것을 μ•Œμ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:06
But then I began to think of other things.
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‚˜ μ €λŠ” λ‹€λ₯Έ 것듀도 κ³ λ €ν•˜κΈ° μ‹œμž‘ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:08
Who makes a great interview in this context?
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이런 μƒν™©μ—μ„œ λˆ„κ°€ ν›Œλ₯­ν•œ 인터뷰λ₯Ό λ§Œλ“œλŠ” κ²ƒμΌκΉŒ?
05:12
It had nothing to do with their intellect,
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κ·Έλ“€μ˜ 지식, μ§€μ‹μ˜ μ§ˆκ³ΌλŠ”
05:14
the quality of their intellect.
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상관이 μ—†μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:16
Some of them were very brilliant,
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κ·Έλ“€ μ€‘μ˜ μΌλΆ€λŠ” λ›°μ–΄λ‚œ μ²œμž¬μ˜€μ§€λ§Œ
05:18
some of them were,
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λ‹€λ₯Έ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€
05:20
you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals,
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천재라고 λΆˆλ¦¬μ§€ μ•ŠλŠ” ν‰λ²”ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄μ—ˆμœΌλ‚˜
05:23
but it was never about that.
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μ „ν˜€ 상관이 μ—†μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:26
It was about their energy.
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κ·Έλ“€μ˜ μ—λ„ˆμ§€μ™€ 관계가 μžˆμ—ˆμ§€μš”.
05:29
It's energy that creates extraordinary interviews
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그것은 λ°”λ‘œ νŠΉλ³„ν•œ 인터뷰λ₯Ό λ§Œλ“€κ³ ,
05:32
and extraordinary lives.
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νŠΉλ³„ν•œ 삢을 λ§Œλ“œλŠ” νž˜μ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:34
I'm convinced of it.
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μ €λŠ” 그것을 ν™•μ‹ ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:36
And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.
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μ ŠμŒκ³Όλ„ 상관이 μ—†μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:39
These were people through their 90s.
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κ·Έ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€ 90λŒ€μ˜€κ±°λ“ μš”.
05:41
In fact, the first person I interviewed
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사싀, μ œκ°€ 처음으둜 μΈν„°λ·°ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒμ€
05:43
was George Abbott, who was 97,
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97μ„Έμ˜ 쑰지 μ• λ³΄νŠΈμ˜€μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:46
and Abbott was filled with the life force --
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κ·ΈλŠ” ν™œλ ₯이 λ„˜μ³€μ§€μš”.
05:49
I guess that's the way I think about it -- filled with it.
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μ œκ°€ μƒκ°ν•˜κΈ°λ‘œλŠ” 그것이 λ°”λ‘œ μΆ©λ§Œν•œ μ‚Άμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:51
And so he filled the room,
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κ·Έ 곡간을 가득 채웠고,
05:53
and we had an extraordinary conversation.
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ν‰λ²”ν•˜μ§€ μ•Šμ€ λŒ€ν™”λ₯Ό λ‚˜λˆ„μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:56
He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do
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λˆ„κ΅¬λ³΄λ‹€λ„ νž˜λ“  인터뷰가 될 것이라고 μ˜ˆμƒν–ˆλ˜ μ΄μœ λŠ”
05:59
because he was famous for being silent,
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κ·Έκ°€ 아무 말도 ν•˜μ§€ μ•ŠκΈ°λ‘œ
06:03
for never ever saying anything
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유λͺ…ν–ˆκΈ° λ•Œλ¬ΈμΈλ°,
06:05
except maybe a word or two.
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ν•œ 두 λ§ˆλ””λ§Œ λ˜μ§€λŠ” μ •λ„μ˜€μ§€μš”.
06:07
And, in fact, he did wind up opening up --
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μ‹€μ œλ‘œλŠ” κ·ΈλŠ” 말문을 μ—΄κ³ μ„œ
06:09
by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.
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ν•œνŽΈ 그의 열정을 λ‹€λ₯Έ λ°©λ²•μœΌλ‘œ λ“œλŸ¬λƒˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
06:13
He subsequently got married again at 102,
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κ·Έ 증거둜, κ·ΈλŠ” 102세에 λ‹€μ‹œ κ²°ν˜Όν–ˆμ§€μš”.
06:16
so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.
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λ³΄μ‹œλ‹€μ‹œν”Ό, 맀우 큰 μ‚Άμ˜ ν™œλ ₯을 μ§€λ‹ˆκ³  μžˆμ—ˆμ§€μš”.
06:20
But after the interview, I got a call,
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인터뷰가 λλ‚œ ν›„ μ „ν™”λ₯Ό ν•œ 톡 λ°›μ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
06:22
very gruff voice, from a woman.
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ν•œ μ—¬μžλΆ„μ΄ μ‰° λͺ©μ†Œλ¦¬λ‘œ μ „ν™”λ₯Ό κ±Έμ–΄μ™€μ„œλŠ”,
06:26
I didn't know who she was,
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λˆ„κ΅°μ§€λ„ λͺ¨λ₯΄λŠ”데 말이죠,
06:28
and she said, "Did you get George Abbott to talk?"
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"당신이 쑰지 μ• λ³΄νŠΈλ₯Ό λ§ν•˜κ²Œ ν–ˆλ‹€λŠ”κ²Œ μ‚¬μ‹€μΈκ°€μš”?" 라고 λ¬Όμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
06:32
And I said, "Yeah. Apparently I did."
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"λ„€, κ·Έλ ‡κ²Œ ν–ˆμ§€μš”"라고 λŒ€λ‹΅ν•˜μž
06:35
And she said, "I'm his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton,
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"λ‚˜λŠ” μ‘°μ§€μ˜ μ˜› μ—¬μžμΉœκ΅¬ λ¨Έλ¦° μŠ€ν…Œν”Œν„΄μΈλ°
06:39
and I could never do it."
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ν•œ λ²ˆλ„ κ·Έλ₯Ό λ§ν•˜κ²Œ ν•  수 μ—†μ—ˆμ–΄μš”"라고 λ§ν•˜λ”κ΅°μš”.
06:41
And then she made me go up with the tape of it
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μ œμ—κ²Œ λ…ΉμŒν•œ ν…Œμ΄ν”„λ₯Ό λ°›μ•„κ°€μ„œλŠ”
06:44
and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.
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쑰지 μ• λ³΄νŠΈκ°€ μ§„μ§œλ‘œ 말할 수 μžˆλ‹€λŠ” 것을 ν™•μΈν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
06:47
So, you know, you want energy,
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자, λ΄…μ‹œλ‹€. μ—λ„ˆμ§€λ₯Ό ν•„μš”ν•˜κ³ ,
06:49
you want the life force,
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ν™œλ ₯이 ν•„μš”ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ
06:51
but you really want them also to think
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또 ν•œκ°€μ§€ μ€‘μš”ν•œ 것은
06:55
that they have a story worth sharing.
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그듀이 λ‚˜λˆŒ κ°€μΉ˜κ°€ μžˆλŠ” 이야기λ₯Ό 가지고 μžˆλ‹€κ³  μƒκ°ν•˜κ²Œ λ§Œλ“œλŠ” κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
06:59
The worst interviews that you can ever have
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κ°€μž₯ νž˜λ“  μΈν„°λ·°λŠ”
07:02
are with people who are modest.
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κ²Έμ†ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒκ³Όμ˜ μΈν„°λ·°μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
07:05
Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who's modest,
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κ²Έμ†§λ‚˜ μ‚¬λžŒκ³Ό 인터뷰λ₯Ό ν•œλ‹€λ©΄
07:08
because all of these people have been assembled
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λͺ¨μΈ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€ 단지
07:11
to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,
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μžλ¦¬μ— μ•‰μ•„μ„œ 듀을 수 μžˆλŠ” μ–˜κΈ°λž€
07:13
"Aw, shucks, it was an accident."
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"μ•„, 이런, 그건 μš°μ—°μ΄μ—ˆμ–΄μš”." 밖에 μ—†κΈ° λ•Œλ¬Έμ΄μ£ .
07:15
There's nothing that ever happens that justifies
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κ·€μ€‘ν•œ μ‹œκ°„μ„ μžλ¦¬μ— 앉아
07:19
people taking good hours of the day to be with them.
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ν—ˆλΉ„ν•  μ΄μœ κ°€ μ „ν˜€ μ—†μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
07:23
The worst interview I ever did: William L. Shirer.
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μœŒλ¦¬μ•” L. μ‰¬λŸ¬μ™€μ˜ 인터뷰가 그런 κ²½μš°μ§€μš”.
07:26
The journalist who did "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."
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"제 3제ꡭ(μ£Ό : νžˆν‹€λŸ¬ μΉ˜ν•˜μ˜ 독일)의 ν₯망"을 μ“΄ λΆ„μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
07:31
This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months,
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반 λ…„ 사이에 νžˆν‹€λŸ¬μ™€ κ°„λ””λ₯Ό λ‘˜ λ‹€ λ§Œλ‚  일이 μžˆμ—ˆλŠ”λ°
07:35
and every time I'd ask him about it, he'd say, "Oh, I just happened to be there.
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κ·Έ 일에 λŒ€ν•΄ λ¬Όμ–΄λ³Ό λ•Œλ§ˆλ‹€ 단지 "μ•„, κ·Έλƒ₯ μš°μ—°νžˆ μΌμ–΄λ‚œ 일일 λΏμ΄μ—μš”.
07:38
Didn't matter." Whatever.
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별 일 μ•„λ‹ˆμ§€μš”." 라고 λŒ€λ‹΅ν•  λΏμ΄μ—ˆμ£ .
07:41
Awful.
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μ΅œμ•…μ΄μ£ .
07:43
I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.
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μ €λŠ” κ²Έμ†ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒκ³Όμ˜ μΈν„°λ·°λŠ” μ ˆλŒ€ μ‚¬μ–‘ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
07:46
They have to think that they did something
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그듀은 μžμ‹ λ“€μ΄ 무슨 일을 ν–ˆκ³ 
07:48
and that they want to share it with you.
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청쀑듀과 λ‚˜λˆŒ 것이 μžˆλ‹€λŠ” 것을 생각해 λ΄μ•Όλ§Œ ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
07:50
But it comes down, in the end,
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 결ꡭ은
07:54
to how do you get through all the barriers we have.
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이런 λ¬Έμ œλ“€μ„ μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ ν—€μ³λ‚˜κ°ˆ 것인가λ₯Ό κ³ λ―Όν•΄μ•Ό ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
08:01
All of us are public and private beings,
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우리 λͺ¨λ‘λŠ” 곡적이며 사적인 μ‘΄μž¬μ΄μ§€λ§Œ
08:04
and if all you're going to get from the interviewee is their public self,
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인터뷰 μƒλŒ€μ˜ 곡적인 면을 톡해 μ ‘κ·Όν•œλ‹€λ©΄
08:10
there's no point in it.
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얻을 것이 μ—†μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
08:12
It's pre-programmed. It's infomercial,
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그건 미리 κ³„νšλœ 기사성 광고에 λΆˆκ³Όν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
08:15
and we all have infomercials about our lives.
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각자의 삢에 λŒ€ν•œ κ΄‘κ³ κ°€ 있기 마련이죠.
08:18
We know the great lines, we know the great moments,
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μœ„λŒ€ν•œ λ§μ΄λ‚˜ μœ„λŒ€ν•œ μˆœκ°„λ“€μ„ 잘 μ•Œκ³  있고,
08:21
we know what we're not going to share,
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무엇을 λ“œλŸ¬λ‚΄μ•Ό ν•˜λŠ”μ§€ 잘 μ•Œκ³  μžˆμ§€μš”.
08:23
and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ μƒλŒ€λ₯Ό λ‹Ήν™©ν•˜μ§€ μ•Šκ²Œ ν•˜λŠ” 것이
08:26
This wasn't -- and some of you will remember
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잘 ν•˜λŠ” 게 μ•„λ‹™λ‹ˆλ‹€. λͺ‡λͺ‡ 뢄듀은
08:28
Mike Wallace's old interviews --
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마이크 μ™ˆλΌμŠ€μ˜ 였래 μ „ 인터뷰λ₯Ό κΈ°μ–΅ν•˜μ‹€ κ²λ‹ˆλ‹€.
08:30
tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.
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κ±°μΉ κ³ , 곡격적인 인터뷰 λ§μ΄μ§€μš”. κ·Έλž˜μ•Όλ§Œ ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
08:33
I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say,
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μ•„λ§ˆλ„ 그듀이 λ§ν•˜κ³  μ‹Άμ–΄ν–ˆλ˜ 것듀을 λŒμ–΄λ‚΄μ–΄
08:37
to break out of their own cocoon of the public self,
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곡적인 λͺ¨μŠ΅μ˜ κ΅΄λ ˆμ™€
08:44
and the more public they had been,
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λŒ€μ€‘ μ•žμ— λ“œλŸ¬λ‚œ λͺ¨μŠ΅λ“€,
08:46
the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.
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κ²‰μ‚¬λžŒ 속에 μˆ¨μ–΄μžˆλŠ” λͺ¨μŠ΅μ„ λ²—μ–΄λ‚˜κ²Œ ν•˜κ³ μž λ…Έλ ₯ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
08:51
And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment
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이 인터뷰 μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆ μ•ˆμ—μ„œ
08:54
that happened in this interview series.
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μ΅œμ•…μ˜ μˆœκ°„κ³Ό 졜고의 μˆœκ°„μ„ λ§μ”€λ“œλ¦¬μžλ©΄,
08:56
It all has to do with that shell that most of us have,
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우리 λŒ€λΆ€λΆ„κ³Ό, 특히 일뢀 μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄ 가지고 μžˆλŠ”
09:01
and particularly certain people.
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껍질과 κ΄€λ ¨λœ μΌμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:04
There's an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.
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ν΄λ ˆμ–΄ λΆ€μŠ€ λ£¨μŠ€λΌλŠ” νŠΉλ³„ν•œ 여성뢄이 μžˆμ—ˆλŠ”λ°,
09:07
It'll be your generational determinant
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μ–΄λ–€ μ‚¬λžŒμœΌλ‘œ 더 잘 μ•Œκ³  μžˆλŠ” 지λ₯Ό 보면
09:10
as to whether her name means much to you.
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μ„ΈλŒ€λ₯Ό κ΅¬λΆ„ν•˜λŠ” 기쀀이 될 수 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:13
She did so much. She was a playwright.
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λ§Žμ€ 일듀을 ν–ˆλŠ”λ°, κ·Έ 쀑 ν•˜λ‚˜κ°€ κ·Ήμž‘κ°€μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:18
She did an extraordinary play called "The Women."
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"κ·Έ μ—¬μžλ“€"μ΄λΌλŠ” 희곑을 μΌμ§€μš”.
09:21
She was a congresswoman
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κ·Έλ…€λŠ” μ—¬μž κ΅­νšŒμ˜μ›μ΄ λ³„λ‘œ μ—†λ˜ μ‹œλŒ€μ—
09:23
when there weren't very many congresswomen.
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κ΅­νšŒμ˜μ›μ΄μ—ˆκ³ ,
09:26
She was editor of Vanity Fair,
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λ°°λ‹ˆν‹° νŽ˜μ–΄(μ£Ό : 미ꡭ의 유λͺ… λŒ€μ€‘λ¬Έν™” μž‘μ§€)의 νŽΈμ§‘μžμ΄κΈ°λ„ ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:28
one of the great phenomenal women of her day.
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λ‹Ήμ‹œ κ°€μž₯ 영ν–₯λ ₯ μžˆλŠ” μ—¬μ„± 쀑 ν•œ λͺ…μ΄μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
09:32
And, incidentally, I call her
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덧뢙여 λ§ν•˜μžλ©΄ μ €λŠ” κ·Έλ…€λ₯Ό
09:35
the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.
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λ³΄μˆ˜μ§„μ˜μ˜ μ—˜λ¦¬λ„ˆ 루즈벨트라고 λΆˆλ €μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:38
She was sort of adored on the Right
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κ·Έλ…€λŠ” λ³΄μˆ˜μ§„μ˜μ—μ„œ
09:40
the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.
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진보세λ ₯의 μ—˜λ¦¬λ„ˆ 루즈벨트처럼 μ‚¬λž‘λ°›λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒμ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:43
And, in fact, when we did the interview --
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이 μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆμ˜ μΌν™˜μœΌλ‘œ 행해진
09:46
I did the living self-portrait with her --
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인터뷰λ₯Ό ν•  λ•Œ
09:48
there were three former directors of the CIA
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전직 CIA μΆœμ‹ μ˜ 간뢀듀이
09:50
basically sitting at her feet,
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κ·Έλ…€ μ•žμ— μ²­μ€‘μœΌλ‘œ 앉아
09:52
just enjoying her presence.
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이야기λ₯Ό λ“£κ³  μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:55
And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake,
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μ•„μ£Ό μ‰¬μš΄ 인터뷰가 될 거라고 μƒκ°ν–ˆμ—ˆλŠ”λ°
09:57
because I always have preliminary talks with these people
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μ™œλƒν•˜λ©΄ 인터뷰λ₯Ό μ‹œμž‘ν•˜κΈ° μ „
10:01
for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
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10~15λΆ„ 정도 μ˜ˆν–‰ μ—°μŠ΅μ„ ν•˜κΈ° λ•Œλ¬Έμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:04
We never talk before that because if you talk before,
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전에 말해 λ³Έ 적이 μ—†λ‹€λ©΄ μ‰½κ²Œ λ§ν•˜κΈ° νž˜λ“€κ³ ,
10:07
you don't get it on the stage.
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λ¬΄λŒ€ μœ„μ—μ„œλΌλ©΄ λ”λ”μš± κ·Έλ ‡μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:09
So she and I had a delightful conversation.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ 그녀와 즐거운 λŒ€ν™”λ₯Ό λ‚˜λˆ„μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
10:13
We were on the stage and then --
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λ¬΄λŒ€μ— μ˜¬λΌμ„œμž
10:16
by the way, spectacular.
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μž₯κ΄€μ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:18
It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce's look.
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ν΄λ ˆμ–΄ λΆ€μŠ€ 루슀의 μ™Έλͺ¨ λ•λΆ„μ΄μ—ˆλŠ”λ°
10:21
She was in a great evening gown.
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κ·Έλ…€λŠ” μ΄λΈŒλ‹ κ°€μš΄μ„ μž…κ³  μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:24
She was 80, almost that day of the interview,
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인터뷰λ₯Ό ν•˜λ˜ λ•Œκ°€ 80μ„Έ μ―€ λ˜μ—ˆμ„ κ²λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:27
and there she was and there I was,
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그녀와 ν•¨κ»˜ 앉아
10:29
and I just proceeded into the questions.
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λͺ‡ 가지 μ§ˆλ¬Έμ„ λ˜μ‘ŒμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:31
And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‚˜ κ·Έλ…€λŠ” λƒ‰λž­ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€. 믿기지 μ•Šμ„ μ •λ„λ‘œμš”.
10:36
Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss,
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λ¬Όμ–΄λ³Ό λ•Œλ§ˆλ‹€ λŒμ•„μ•‰μ•„ λ¬΄μ‹œν•˜λ”κ΅°μš”.
10:41
and I was basically up there -- any of you
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그런 상황에 μžˆμœΌλ‹ˆ 말이지,
10:43
in the moderate-to-full entertainment world
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μ—°μ˜ˆκ³„λ₯Ό μ‘°κΈˆμ΄λΌλ„ μ•„μ‹œλŠ” 뢄이라면
10:45
know what it is to die onstage.
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λ¬΄λŒ€ μœ„μ—μ„œ μ£½λŠ”λ‹€λŠ” 것이 무엇인지 μ•„μ‹€κ²λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:48
And I was dying. She was absolutely not giving me a thing.
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μ „ μ£½μ–΄κ°€κ³  μžˆμ—ˆμ£ . 아무 것도 얻을 μˆ˜κ°€ μ—†μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:53
And I began to wonder what was going on,
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이게 μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ λ˜κ°€λŠ” 건지 어리λ‘₯μ ˆν–ˆμ§€μš”.
10:55
and you think while you talk,
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λ§ν•˜λŠ” λ™μ•ˆ μƒκ°ν•˜λŠ”λ°,
10:57
and basically, I thought, I got it.
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κ°‘μžκΈ° 아이디어가 λ– μ˜¬λžμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
11:00
When we were alone, I was her audience.
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우리끼리만 μžˆλ‹€λ©΄ μ €λŠ” 그의 μ²­μ€‘μ΄μ§€λ§Œ,
11:04
Now I'm her competitor for the audience.
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κ·Έ μƒν™©μ—μ„œλŠ” 청쀑을 놓고 그와 κ²½μŸν•˜λŠ” κ΅¬λ„μ˜€μ§€μš”.
11:06
That's the problem here, and she's fighting me for that,
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그것이 λ¬Έμ œμ˜€μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€. κ·Έλ…€λŠ” 저와 겨루고 μžˆμ—ˆλ˜ κ²ƒμ΄μ§€μš”.
11:10
and so then I asked her a question --
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ§ˆλ¬Έμ„ ν•˜λ‚˜ λ˜μ‘ŒμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
11:12
I didn't know how I was going to get out of it --
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μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ κ·Έ 상황을 ν—€μ³λ‚˜μ™€μ•Ό 할지 λͺ°λžμ–΄μš”.
11:14
I asked her a question about her days as a playwright,
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κ·Έλ…€μ˜ μž‘κ°€ μ‹œμ ˆμ— λŒ€ν•΄ λ¬Όμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
11:20
and again, characteristically,
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또 λ‹€μ‹œ μ—­μ‹œλ‚˜,
11:22
instead of saying, "Oh yes, I was a playwright, and this is what blah blah blah,"
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"λ„€ λ§žμ•„μš”, μ €λŠ” μž‘κ°€ μ‹œμ ˆμ— μ΄λž˜μ €λž˜ ν–ˆμ§€μš”."λΌλŠ” 말 λŒ€μ‹ ,
11:25
she said, "Oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.
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"μ•„, μž‘κ°€ μ’‹μ§€μš”. λˆ„κ΅¬λ‚˜ μ œκ°€ μž‘κ°€μ˜€λ‹€λŠ” κ±Έ μ•Œκ³  있죠.
11:28
Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress."
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λ§Žμ€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄ μ œκ°€ 배우인 쀄 μ•Œκ³  μžˆλŠ”λ°, μ „ 배우λ₯Ό ν•œ 적이 μ—†μ–΄μš”." 라고 λ§ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
11:32
But I hadn't asked that, and then she went off on a tear,
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ μ €λŠ” κ·Έκ±Έ 묻지 μ•Šμ•˜μ—ˆμ£ . κ°‘μžκΈ° κ·Έκ°€ λˆˆλ¬Όμ„ 흘리기 μ‹œμž‘ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
11:36
and she said, "Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.
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"κ·Έλž˜μš”, μ œκ°€ 배우λ₯Ό ν–ˆλ˜ 적이 ν•œ 번 μžˆμ—ˆμ£ .
11:39
It was for a charity in Connecticut when I was a congresswoman,
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μ œκ°€ κ΅­νšŒμ˜μ›μ΄μ—ˆμ„ λ•Œ μ½”λ„€ν‹°μ»·μ—μ„œ μ—΄λ¦° μžμ„ κ³΅μ—°μ—
11:42
and I got up there," and she went on and on, "And then I got on the stage."
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μΆœμ—°ν–ˆλ˜ 적이 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€." 말을 이어, "κ·Έ λ•Œ λ¬΄λŒ€μ— μ˜¬λžμ§€μš”."
11:45
And then she turned to me and said,
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μ €λ₯Ό λŒμ•„λ³΄λ©΄μ„œ μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ λ¬Όμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
11:47
"And you know what those young actors did?
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"μ Šμ€ λ°°μš°λ“€μ΄ μ–΄λ• λŠ”μ§€ μ•Œμ•„μš”?
11:50
They upstaged me." And she said, "Do you know what that is?"
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λ‚˜λ³΄λ‹€ 인기가 λ§Žμ•˜μ–΄μš”." "그게 무슨 말인지 μ•Œμ•„μš”?"
11:52
Just withering in her contempt.
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κ·Έλ…€μ—κ²Œ 살짝 κΈ°κ°€ μ£½μ–΄μ„œλŠ”
11:54
And I said, "I'm learning."
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μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ λŒ€λ‹΅ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€. "κΈ€μŽ„μš”."
11:56
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
11:58
And she looked at me, and it was like the successful arm-wrestle,
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마치 νŒ”μ”¨λ¦„μ—μ„œ 이긴 μ‚¬λžŒμ²˜λŸΌ λ„λ„ν•˜κ²Œ μ €λ₯Ό μ³λ‹€λ³΄λ©΄μ„œ
12:03
and then, after that, she delivered an extraordinary account
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κ·Έ λ’€λ‘œλŠ” κ·Έλ…€μ˜ 삢이 μ–΄λ– ν–ˆλŠ”μ§€μ— λŒ€ν•΄
12:07
of what her life really was like.
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λΉ„λ²”ν•œ 이야기듀을 λ“€λ €μ£Όλ”κ΅°μš”.
12:09
I have to end that one. This is my tribute to Clare Boothe Luce.
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이 이야기λ₯Ό λ§ˆμ³μ•Όκ² λ„€μš”. 이건 ν΄λ ˆμ–΄ λΆ€μŠ€ λ£¨μŠ€μ—κ²Œ λ°”μΉ˜λŠ” λ‚΄μš©μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:12
Again, a remarkable person.
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μ•„λ¬΄νŠΌ, λŒ€λ‹¨ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:14
I'm not politically attracted to her, but through her life force,
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μ •μΉ˜μ μœΌλ‘œλŠ” 호감이 가지 μ•Šμ§€λ§Œ, κ·Έλ…€μ˜ νž˜μžˆλŠ” μ‚Ά λ•Œλ¬Έμ—
12:17
I'm attracted to her.
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κ·Έλ…€μ—κ²Œ 맀λ ₯을 λŠλ‚λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:20
And the way she died -- she had, toward the end, a brain tumor.
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λ‡Œμ’…μ–‘μ— λ§žμ„œλ‹€ μˆ¨μ§„ κ·Έλ…€μ˜ μ£½μŒλ§ˆμ €λ„ λ§μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:25
That's probably as terrible a way to die as you can imagine,
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λ‡Œμ’…μ–‘μ€ 당신이 상상할 수 μžˆλŠ” κ°€μž₯ λ”μ°ν•œ 죽음일 κ²λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:28
and very few of us were invited to a dinner party.
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μ•„μ£Ό 적은 μΈμ›λ§Œ 저녁식사에 μ΄ˆλŒ€λ₯Ό λ°›μ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:34
And she was in horrible pain.
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κ·Έκ°€ λ”μ§ν•œ 고톡을 κ²ͺκ³  μžˆμ„ λ‹Ήμ‹œμ—.
12:36
We all knew that.
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우리 λͺ¨λ‘λŠ” μ•Œκ³  μžˆμ—ˆμ§€μš”.
12:38
She stayed in her room.
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κ·ΈλŠ” 방에 μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:41
Everybody came. The butler passed around canapes.
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λͺ¨λ‘ λ„μ°©ν–ˆκ³ , 집사가 μΉ΄λ‚˜νŽ˜λ₯Ό λŒ€μ ‘ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:43
The usual sort of thing.
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ν”νžˆλ“€ ν•˜λŠ” μ‹μœΌλ‘œμš”.
12:46
Then at a certain moment, the door opened
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κ·Έ μˆœκ°„ 문이 열리고
12:49
and she walked out perfectly dressed, completely composed.
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μ™„λ²½ν•˜κ²Œ μ°¨λ €μž…μ€ κ·Έλ…€κ°€ κ±Έμ–΄ λ“€μ–΄μ™”μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
12:53
The public self, the beauty, the intellect,
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κ³΅μΈμœΌλ‘œμ„œ 지성과 λ―Έλͺ¨λ₯Ό λ“œλŸ¬λ‚΄λ©°
12:57
and she walked around and talked to every person there
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λͺ¨λ“  μ΄ˆλŒ€ μ†λ‹˜κ³Ό 인사λ₯Ό λ‚˜λˆ„μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:01
and then went back into the room and was never seen again.
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그리고 방으둜 λŒμ•„κ°„ ν›„, λ‹€μ‹œ λ‚˜μ˜€μ§€ μ•Šμ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:04
She wanted the control of her final moment, and she did it amazingly.
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κ·ΈλŠ” λ§ˆμ§€λ§‰ μˆœκ°„μ„ μžμ‹ μ΄ ν†΅μ œν•˜κ³  μ‹Άμ–΄ν–ˆκ³ , μ™„λ²½ν•˜κ²Œ ν•΄λƒˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:10
Now, there are other ways that you get somebody to open up,
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자, 인터뷰 λŒ€μƒμžμ˜ 말문을 μ—¬λŠ” λ‹€λ₯Έ 방법도 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:14
and this is just a brief reference.
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μ§€λ§‰ν•œ 일화인데,
13:18
It wasn't this arm-wrestle,
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νŒ”μ”¨λ¦„μ€ μ•„λ‹ˆμ§€λ§Œ
13:20
but it was a little surprising for the person involved.
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μ•„λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ—κ²ŒλŠ” 살짝 λ†€λΌμš΄ 일이긴 ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:22
I interviewed Steve Martin. It wasn't all that long ago.
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μ–Όλ§ˆ 전에 μŠ€ν‹°λΈŒ λ§ˆν‹΄μ„ μΈν„°λ·°ν•œ 적이 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:26
And we were sitting there,
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μžλ¦¬μ— μ•‰μ•„μ„œ
13:28
and almost toward the beginning of the interview,
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인터뷰λ₯Ό μ‹œμž‘ν•˜κΈ° 직전에
13:31
I turned to him and I said, "Steve," or "Mr. Martin,
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"μŠ€ν‹°λΈŒ, μ•„λ‹ˆ, λ§ˆν‹΄ 씨,
13:36
it is said that all comedians have unhappy childhoods.
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코미디언듀은 λΆˆν–‰ν•œ μ–΄λ¦° μ‹œμ ˆμ„ λ³΄λƒˆλ‹€κ³  ν•˜λ˜λ°,
13:42
Was yours unhappy?"
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당신은 μ–΄λ• μŠ΅λ‹ˆκΉŒ?" 라고 λ¬Όμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:44
And he looked at me, you know, as if to say,
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λ‹Ήμ—°νžˆ κ·ΈλŠ” μ €λ₯Ό 쳐닀보며 마치
13:47
"This is how you're going to start this thing, right off?"
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"이게 당신이 인터뷰λ₯Ό μ‹œμž‘ν•˜λŠ” λ°©μ‹μ΄μš”? 이런 μ‹μ΄μœΌλ‘œ?" 라고 λ¬»λŠ” 것 κ°™μ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:50
And then he turned to me, not stupidly,
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λ‚˜λ₯Ό λŒμ•„λ³΄λ©°, μ§„μ§€ν•˜κ²Œ
13:52
and he said, "What was your childhood like?"
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"λ‹Ήμ‹ μ˜ μ–΄λ¦° μ‹œμ ˆμ€ μ–΄λ• μŠ΅λ‹ˆκΉŒ?"라고 λ¬Όμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:56
And I said -- these are all arm wrestles, but they're affectionate --
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자, 이건 μ• μ •μ–΄λ¦° 겨루기와도 같은 κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
13:59
and I said, "My father was loving and supportive,
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"저희 μ•„λ²„μ§€λŠ” 애정이 많고 μ›ν•˜λŠ” κ±Έ λ‹€ λ“€μ–΄μ£Όμ‹œλŠ” λΆ„μ΄μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
14:02
which is why I'm not funny."
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ œκ°€ μ•ˆ 웃긴가 λ΄…λ‹ˆλ‹€." 라고 λŒ€λ‹΅ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:04
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
14:06
And he looked at me, and then we heard the big sad story.
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그러자 μ €λ₯Ό 바라보며, 그의 μŠ¬ν”ˆ κ³Όκ±°λ₯Ό 털어놓기 μ‹œμž‘ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:10
His father was an SOB,
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그의 μ•„λ²„μ§€λŠ” ν•œλ§ˆλ””λ‘œ 개XX μ˜€λ‹΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:12
and, in fact, he was another comedian with an unhappy childhood,
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 사싀은, 아버지도 λΆˆν–‰ν•œ μ–΄λ¦°μ‹œμ ˆμ„ 보낸 μ½”λ―Έλ””μ–Έμ΄μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
14:16
but then we were off and running.
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μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ 이야기λ₯Ό μ΄λŒμ–΄ λ‚΄κ³  인터뷰λ₯Ό μ΄μ–΄κ°”μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:19
So the question is:
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즉 질문의 핡심은,
14:20
What is the key that's going to allow this to proceed?
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무엇이 μΈν„°λ·°μ˜ μ‹œλ™μ„ κ±Έ 열쇠인가? ν•˜λŠ” κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:23
Now, these are arm wrestle questions,
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μƒλŒ€λ°©κ³Ό 겨루기 μœ„ν•œ μ§ˆλ¬Έλ“€μ΄ μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:25
but I want to tell you about questions
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κ·Έ μ§ˆλ¬Έλ“€μ— λŒ€ν•΄ λ§μ”€λ“œλ¦¬μžλ©΄
14:28
that are more related to empathy
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κ³΅κ°ν•˜λŠ” 것이 κ°€μž₯ μ€‘μš”ν•˜κ³ ,
14:31
and that really, very often, are the questions
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정말 자주 μžˆλŠ” 일인데
14:34
that people have been waiting their whole lives to be asked.
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κ·Έ μ‚¬λžŒμ΄ 물어봐 μ£ΌκΈ°λ₯Ό κΈ°λ‹€λ¦¬λŠ” μ§ˆλ¬Έλ“€μ΄ μžˆμ§€μš”.
14:37
And I'll just give you two examples of this because of the time constraints.
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μ‹œκ°„μ΄ μ–Όλ§ˆ 남지 μ•Šμ•˜μœΌλ‹ˆ 두 가지 예만 더 λ§μ”€λ“œλ¦¬κ² μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:41
One was an interview I did with one of the great American biographers.
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ν•œ 유λͺ…ν•œ μ „κΈ° μž‘κ°€μ™€ 인터뷰λ₯Ό ν•œ 적이 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:47
Again, some of you will know him, most of you won't, Dumas Malone.
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μ•„μ‹œλŠ” 뢄은 μ•Œν…λ°, λ‘λ§ˆμŠ€ λ§λ‘ μ΄λΌλŠ” λΆ„μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:49
He did a five-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson,
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ν† λ§ˆμŠ€ μ œνΌμŠ¨μ— λŒ€ν•œ 5ꢌ 짜리 μ „κΈ°λ₯Ό νŽΈμ°¬ν–ˆμ§€μš”.
14:53
spent virtually his whole life with Thomas Jefferson,
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거의 μ „ 생애λ₯Ό ν† λ§ˆμŠ€ 제퍼슨과 같이 ν–ˆλ‹€κ³  해도 과언이 μ•„λ‹™λ‹ˆλ‹€.
14:58
and by the way, at one point I asked him,
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그런데 μ €λŠ” κ·Έ μžλ¦¬μ—μ„œ
15:00
"Would you like to have met him?"
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"ν† λ§ˆμŠ€ μ œνΌμŠ¨μ„ λ§Œλ‚˜λŠ” 것이 μ’‹μ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆκΉŒ?"라고 λ¬Όμ—ˆμ§€μš”.
15:02
And he said, "Well, of course,
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"λ„€, 물둠이죠
15:04
but actually, I know him better than anyone who ever met him,
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 싀상 μ œκ°€ ν† λ§ˆμŠ€ μ œνΌμŠ¨μ„ λ‹€λ₯Έ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€λ³΄λ‹€ 더 잘 μ•„λŠ”
15:07
because I got to read all of his letters."
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μ΄μœ λŠ” 그의 λͺ¨λ“  νŽΈμ§€λ₯Ό λ‹€ 읽어봀기 λ•Œλ¬Έμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€."
15:09
So, he was very satisfied with the kind of relationship they had over 50 years.
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λ‘λ§ˆμŠ€ 말둠은 ν† λ§ˆμŠ€ 제퍼슨과의 그런 μΉœλΆ„μ„ 50λ…„ λ„˜κ²Œ μœ μ§€ν•˜λ©° λ§Œμ‘±μŠ€λŸ¬μ›Œ ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
15:15
And I asked him one question.
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κ·Έμ—κ²Œ ν•œ 가지λ₯Ό λ¬Όμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
15:18
I said, "Did Jefferson ever disappoint you?"
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"제퍼슨이 당신을 μ‹€λ§μ‹œν‚¨ 적이 μžˆλ‚˜μš”?"
15:22
And here is this man who had given his whole life to uncovering Jefferson
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λ‘λ§ˆμŠ€ 말둠은 그의 μ „ 생애λ₯Ό μ œνΌμŠ¨μ„ νŒŒν—€μΉ˜κ³ 
15:27
and connecting with him,
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그와 μ—°κ²°λ˜μ–΄ 있던 μ‚¬λžŒμ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
15:29
and he said, "Well ..." -- I'm going to do a bad southern accent.
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말둠은 "κΈ€μŽ„μš”.." - 남뢀지방 μ‚¬νˆ¬λ¦¬ 흉내λ₯Ό 잘 λͺ»λ‚΄κ² λ„€μš”.
15:34
Dumas Malone was from Mississippi originally.
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λ‘λ§ˆμŠ€ 말둠은 λ―Έμ‹œμ‹œν”Ό μΆœμ‹ μ΄μ£ .
15:37
But he said, "Well," he said, "I'm afraid so."
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"κΈ€μŽ„μš”, μ•„λ§ˆλ„μš”" 라고 λ‹΅ν•˜λ”κ΅°μš”.
15:41
He said, "You know, I've read everything,
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"μ•Œλ‹€μ‹œν”Ό, 제퍼슨의 λͺ¨λ“  νŽΈμ§€λ₯Ό λ‹€ μ½μ—ˆλŠ”λ°
15:44
and sometimes Mr. Jefferson would smooth the truth a bit."
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가끔 κ·Έκ°€ 진싀을 살짝 κ°€λ¦¬λŠ” 것 κ°™κΈ΄ ν–ˆμ§€μš”."
15:52
And he basically was saying that this was a man
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κ·ΈλŠ” ν† λ§ˆμŠ€ 제퍼슨이
15:55
who lied more than he wished he had,
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κΈ°λŒ€ν–ˆλ˜ κ²ƒλ³΄λ‹€λŠ” κ±°μ§“λ§μŸμ΄λΌλŠ” 것을 λ§ν•˜κ³  μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
15:58
because he saw the letters.
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μ™œλƒν•˜λ©΄ κ·ΈλŠ” νŽΈμ§€λ₯Ό λ‹€ μ½μ–΄λ΄€μœΌλ‹ˆκΉμš”.
16:00
He said, "But I understand that." He said, "I understand that."
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κ·ΈλŠ” "ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ μ „ λ‹€ μ΄ν•΄ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€, μ΄ν•΄ν•˜κ³  λ§κ³ μš”." 라며,
16:04
He said, "We southerners do like a smooth surface,
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"남뢀지방 μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€ μœ λ“€μœ λ“€ν•œ 것을 μ’‹μ•„ν•˜μ£ .
16:09
so that there were times when he just didn't want the confrontation."
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제퍼슨이 싸움닭이 λ˜λŠ” 것을 μ›ν•˜μ§€ μ•Šμ•˜λ˜ μ‹œκΈ°λ„ 있기 마련이죠."
16:13
And he said, "Now, John Adams was too honest."
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ν•œνŽΈ, "μ‘΄ μ•„λ‹΄μŠ€κ°€ κ³ μ§€μ‹ν•˜κ²Œ μ •μ§ν–ˆλ˜κ±°μ£ ." 라고 ν•˜λ”κ΅°μš”.
16:17
And he started to talk about that, and later on he invited me to his house,
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κ·Έ μ–˜κΈ°λ₯Ό λ“£κ³  λ‚œ 후에 그의 집에 μ΄ˆλŒ€ 받은 적이 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
16:20
and I met his wife who was from Massachusetts,
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λ©”μ‚¬μŠˆμ„ΈμΈ  μΆœμ‹ μ˜ 말둠 뢀인을 λ§Œλ‚˜λ³΄λ‹ˆ
16:22
and he and she had exactly the relationship
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말둠과 그의 뢀인이 마치 제퍼슨과 μ•„λ‹΄μŠ€κ°™μ€
16:25
of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
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관계λ₯Ό μœ μ§€ν•˜κ³  μžˆλ”κ΅°μš”.
16:28
She was the New Englander and abrasive,
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뢀인은 λ‰΄μž‰κΈ€λžœλ“œ μ‚¬λžŒκ°™μ΄ 거친 성격이고
16:30
and he was this courtly fellow.
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말둠은 μ μž–μ€ μ‚¬λžŒμ΄κ±°λ“ μš”.
16:33
But really the most important question I ever asked,
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μ •λ§λ‘œ 제 인터뷰 쀑에 κ°€μž₯ μ€‘μš”ν•˜κ³ λ„
16:36
and most of the times when I talk about it,
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이 μ–˜κΈ°λ₯Ό ν•  λ•Œ λ§ˆλ‹€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄
16:39
people kind of suck in their breath at my audacity, or cruelty,
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μ €μ˜ 무λͺ¨ν•˜κ³ λ„ μž”μΈν•œ 면에 ν—‰, ν•˜κ³  놀라고 λ§ˆλŠ” 질문이 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
16:44
but I promise you it was the right question.
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μ•½μ†λ“œλ¦¬μ§€λ§Œ, 이것은 정말 μ μ ˆν•œ μ§ˆλ¬Έμ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
16:48
This was to Agnes de Mille.
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μ•™λ„€μŠ€ λ“œ 밀을 λ§Œλ‚¬μ„ λ•Œμ˜€μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
16:51
Agnes de Mille is one of the great choreographers in our history.
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μ•™λ„€μŠ€ λ“œ 밀은 역사상 κ°€μž₯ 유λͺ…ν•œ μ•ˆλ¬΄κ°€ 쀑 ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒμ΄μ£ .
16:55
She basically created the dances in "Oklahoma,"
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μ˜ν™” "였클라호마"의 μ•ˆλ¬΄λ₯Ό λ‹΄λ‹Ήν–ˆκ³ ,
16:59
transforming the American theater.
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아메리칸 κ·Ήμž₯도 λ³€ν™”μ‹œμΌ°μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
17:01
An amazing woman.
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λŒ€λ‹¨ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒμ΄μ£ .
17:03
At the time that I proposed to her that --
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인터뷰λ₯Ό μ œμ•ˆν–ˆμ„ λ•Œ,
17:08
by the way, I would have proposed to her; she was extraordinary --
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‹ˆκΉŒ 인터뷰λ₯Ό μ œμ•ˆν•˜λ €κ³  ν–ˆμ„ λ•Œ, κ·Έλ…€λŠ” νŠΉλ³„ν–ˆμ§€μš”.
17:10
but proposed to her that she come on.
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그녀보고 와주기λ₯Ό μ²­ν•˜μž
17:12
She said, "Come to my apartment."
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"제 μ•„νŒŒνŠΈλ‘œ μ˜€μ„Έμš”" 라고 ν•˜λ”κ΅°μš”.
17:14
She lived in New York.
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μ•™λ„€μŠ€λŠ” λ‰΄μš•μ— μ‚΄κ³  μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
17:16
"Come to my apartment and we'll talk for those 15 minutes,
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"제 μ•„νŒŒνŠΈλ‘œ μ™€μ„œ 15λΆ„ 정도 μ–˜κΈ°ν•˜κΈ°λ‘œ ν•˜μ§€μš”.
17:20
and then we'll decide whether we proceed."
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μ–˜κΈ°ν•΄λ³΄κ³  λ‚˜μ„œ μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ 할지 λ΄…μ‹œλ‹€"
17:22
And so I showed up in this dark, rambling New York apartment,
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κ·Έλ₯Ό λ§Œλ‚˜κΈ° μœ„ν•΄ μ–΄λ‘‘κ³  μ •μ‹ μ—†λŠ” λ‰΄μš•μ˜ μ•„νŒŒνŠΈλ‘œ μ°Ύμ•„ κ°”μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
17:27
and she called out to me, and she was in bed.
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μΉ¨λŒ€μ— λˆ„μ›Œ μ €λ₯Ό μ†Œλ¦¬μ³ λΆ€λ₯΄λ”κ΅°μš”.
17:30
I had known that she had had a stroke,
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λ°œμž‘μ¦μ„Έκ°€ μžˆλ‹€λŠ” 것은 μ•Œκ³  μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
17:32
and that was some 10 years before.
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ν•œ 10λ…„ μ―€ λ˜μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
17:34
And so she spent almost all of her life in bed,
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μ•™λ„€μŠ€λŠ” λŒ€λΆ€λΆ„μ˜ μ‹œκ°„μ„ μΉ¨λŒ€μ—μ„œ λ³΄λƒˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
17:39
but -- I speak of the life force --
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ -- 생λͺ…λ ₯에 λŒ€ν•΄ μ–˜κΈ°ν•˜λŠ” κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€ --
17:41
her hair was askew.
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머리가 λΉ„λšœλ¦„ν•˜κ²Œ 헝클어져 μžˆλ”κ΅°μš”.
17:43
She wasn't about to make up for this occasion.
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인터뷰λ₯Ό μœ„ν•΄ ν™”μž₯을 ν•  생각은 μ—†μ—ˆλ˜ 것 κ°™μ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
17:46
And she was sitting there surrounded by books,
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κ·Έλ…€λŠ” 책에 λ‘˜λŸ¬μŒ“μ—¬μ„œ
17:49
and her most interesting possession she felt at that moment
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λ‹Ήμ‹œ κ·Έλ…€μ—κ²Œ κ°€μž₯ μ€‘μš”ν–ˆλ˜
17:53
was her will, which she had by her side.
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μœ μ–Έμž₯을 곁에 두고 앉아 μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
17:59
She wasn't unhappy about this. She was resigned.
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μœ μ–Έμž₯ λ•Œλ¬Έμ— 기뢄이 λ³„λ‘œ μ•ˆμ’‹μ•„ λ³΄μ˜€μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€. μ²΄λ…ν•œ μƒνƒœμ˜€μ§€μš”.
18:03
She said, "I keep this will by my bed, memento mori,
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"μœ μ–Έμž₯을 μΉ¨λŒ€ 곁에 λ‘μ§€μš”. μ£½μŒμ„ κΈ°μ–΅ν•˜κΈ° μœ„ν•΄,
18:09
and I change it all the time
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그리고 맀번 고쳐 μ“°κ³€ ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
18:12
just because I want to."
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그러고 μ‹ΆμœΌλ‹ˆκΉŒμš”." 라고 ν•˜λ”κ΅°μš”.
18:14
And she was loving the prospect of death as much as she had loved life.
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삢을 μ‚¬λž‘ν–ˆλ˜ 만큼 μ£½μŒμ— λŒ€ν•΄μ„œλ„ κΈ°λŒ€ν•˜κ³  μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
18:19
I thought, this is somebody I've got to get in this series.
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이 μ‚¬λžŒμ΄μ•Ό 말둜 인터뷰 μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆμ— κΌ­ ν¬ν•¨μ‹œμΌœμ•Όκ² κ΅¬λ‚˜, 라고 μƒκ°ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
18:22
She agreed.
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그도 λ™μ˜ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
18:24
She came on. Of course she was wheelchaired on.
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κ·Έκ°€ μ°Ύμ•„μ™”μ£ . λ¬Όλ‘  νœ μ²΄μ–΄λ₯Ό νƒ€κ³ μš”.
18:27
Half of her body was stricken, the other half not.
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λͺΈμ˜ μ ˆλ°˜μ€ κ΅³μ–΄μ„œ 뻣뻣해져 절반만 움직일 수 μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
18:30
She was, of course, done up for the occasion,
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λ¬Όλ‘  인터뷰λ₯Ό μœ„ν•΄ νž˜λ“€μ—¬ μ™”μ§€λ§Œ,
18:33
but this was a woman in great physical distress.
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정말 λŒ€λ‹¨νžˆ λͺΈμ΄ λΆˆνŽΈν•œ μƒν™©μ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
18:37
And we had a conversation,
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μ–΄μ¨Œλ“  인터뷰λ₯Ό μ§„ν–‰ν–ˆμ§€μš”.
18:40
and then I asked her this unthinkable question.
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그리고 μ €λŠ” 상상할 수 μ—†λŠ” μ§ˆλ¬Έμ„ ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
18:43
I said, "Was it a problem for you in your life that you were not beautiful?"
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"μ•ˆ 예쁜 것 λ•Œλ¬Έμ— μΈμƒμ—μ„œ λ¬Έμ œκ°€ μžˆμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆκΉŒ?" λΌκ³ μš”.
18:52
And the audience just -- you know,
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μ²­μ€‘λ“€μ˜ λ°˜μ‘μ΄ μ–΄λ• λŠ”μ§€ 상상할 수 μžˆμœΌμ‹œκ² μ§€μš”.
18:55
they're always on the side of the interviewee,
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청쀑듀은 μ–Έμ œλ‚˜ 인터뷰λ₯Ό λ°›λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒ νŽΈμ΄κΈ°λ•Œλ¬Έμ—
18:58
and they felt that this was a kind of assault,
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이 μ§ˆλ¬Έμ„ μΌμ’…μ˜ 언어폭λ ₯이라고 λŠκΌˆμ„ν…Œλ‹ˆκΉμš”.
19:01
but this was the question she had
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 이 λ¬ΌμŒμ€
19:03
wanted somebody to ask her whole life.
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그의 인생을 톡틀어 λ“£κ³  μ‹Άμ—ˆλ˜ μ§ˆλ¬Έμ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
19:06
And she began to talk about her childhood, when she was beautiful,
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κ·ΈλŠ” 예뻀던 μ–΄λ¦° μ‹œμ ˆμ— λŒ€ν•΄ μ΄μ•ΌκΈ°ν•˜κΈ° μ‹œμž‘ν–ˆμ§€μš”.
19:11
and she literally turned -- here she was, in this broken body --
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κ·Έλ¦¬κ³ λŠ” λΆˆνŽΈν•œ λͺΈμ„ νž˜λ“€κ²Œ λŒλ €μ„œ
19:14
and she turned to the audience and
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청쀑을 ν–₯ν•΄ 이야기 ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
19:17
described herself as the fair demoiselle
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슀슀둜λ₯Ό μ–΄μ—¬μœ 꼬마 μˆ™λ…€λ‘œ λ¬˜μ‚¬ν•˜λ©΄μ„œ
19:19
with her red hair and her light steps and so forth,
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빨간머리와 κ°€λ²Όμš΄ 발걸음 등을 μ–˜κΈ°ν–ˆμ§€μš”.
19:25
and then she said, "And then puberty hit."
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"그리고 μ‚¬μΆ˜κΈ°κ°€ μ°Ύμ•„μ™”μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€" 라고 λ§ν•˜κ³ μ„œλŠ”,
19:28
And she began to talk about things that had happened
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이야기λ₯Ό κ³„μ†ν•˜λ©΄μ„œ
19:30
to her body and her face,
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μƒκΉ€μƒˆκ°€ μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ λ³€ν•˜κ²Œ λ˜μ—ˆλŠ”μ§€ μ„€λͺ…ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
19:32
and how she could no longer count on her beauty,
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더 이상 아름닡지 μ•Šμ•˜κ³ ,
19:36
and her family then treated her like the ugly sister of the beautiful one
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가쑱듀이 λ‹€λ₯Έ 예쁜 아이듀과 λΉ„κ΅ν•˜λ©°
19:43
for whom all the ballet lessons were given.
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λ°œλ ˆμˆ˜μ—…μ„ λ°›λ˜ 아이듀 쀑 κ°€μž₯ λͺ»μƒκΈ΄ 아이 취급을 ν–ˆμ—ˆλŠ”μ§€μš”.
19:45
And she had to go along just to be with her sister for company,
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μžλ§€λ“€κ³Όλ„ 단지 일행인 κ²ƒμ²˜λŸΌ λ‹€λ…€μ•Ό ν–ˆμ—ˆμ§€μš”.
19:50
and in that process, she made a number of decisions.
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ©΄μ„œ κ·Έλ…€λŠ” λͺ‡ 가지 결심을 ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
19:53
First of all, was that dance, even though
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첫번째 결심은 λ¬΄μš©μ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
19:55
it hadn't been offered to her, was her life.
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비둝 κ·Έλ…€μ—κ²Œ ν—ˆλ½λ˜μ§€ μ•Šμ€ κ²ƒμ΄μ—ˆμ§€λ§Œ, κ·Έλ…€μ˜ μ‚Άμ΄μ—ˆμ§€μš”.
19:57
And secondly, she had better be,
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λ‘λ²ˆμ§Έ 결심은,
19:59
although she did dance for a while, a choreographer
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λ¬΄μš©μ„ μž μ‹œ ν•˜κΈ΄ ν–ˆμ§€λ§Œ, μ•ˆλ¬΄κ°€κ°€ λ˜λŠ” κ²ƒμ΄μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
20:01
because then her looks didn't matter.
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μ•ˆλ¬΄κ°€λŠ” μ™Έλͺ¨κ°€ μ€‘μš”ν•˜μ§€ μ•ŠμœΌλ‹ˆκΉŒμš”.
20:04
But she was thrilled to get that out as a real, real fact in her life.
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κ·Έλ…€λŠ” μ‚Ά κ°€μš΄λ° κ·Έ 꿈이 μ‹€ν˜„λœλ‹€λŠ” 것에 μ „μœ¨μ„ λŠκΌˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
20:11
It was an amazing privilege to do this series.
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이 μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆλ₯Ό μ§„ν–‰ν•œλ‹€λŠ” 것은 λ†€λΌμš΄ νŠΉκΆŒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
20:16
There were other moments like that, very few moments of silence.
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μ•žμ„œ λ§ν•œ 것 같은 μˆœκ°„λ“€λ„ μžˆμ—ˆκ³ , 아무 말도 없을 λ•Œλ„ μžˆμ—ˆμ§€μš”.
20:22
The key point was empathy
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κ°€μž₯ μ€‘μš”ν•œ 것은 κ³΅κ°ν•˜λŠ” κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
20:25
because everybody in their lives
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λͺ¨λ“  μ΄λ“€μ˜ μ‚Άμ—λŠ”
20:29
is really waiting for people to ask them questions,
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μžμ‹ μ—κ²Œ 물어봐주기λ₯Ό μ›ν•˜λŠ” μ§ˆλ¬Έλ“€μ΄ μžˆκΈ°μ—
20:33
so that they can be truthful about who they are
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μžμ‹ μ΄ λˆ„κ΅¬μΈμ§€ μ†”μ§ν•˜κ²Œ 이야기 ν•  수 있고
20:35
and how they became what they are,
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μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ κ·Έ μžλ¦¬μ— 였λ₯Ό 수 μžˆμ—ˆλŠ”μ§€ 말할 수 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
20:38
and I commend that to you, even if you're not doing interviews.
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인터뷰가 μ•„λ‹ˆλ”λΌλ„ κΌ­ κΆŒν•˜κ³  μ‹ΆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
20:42
Just be that way with your friends
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μΉœκ΅¬μ™€ ν•¨κ»˜ μžˆμ„ λ•Œλ‚˜
20:44
and particularly the older members of your family.
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특히 κ°€μ‘± 쀑에 μ–΄λ₯Έλ“€κ³Ό ν•¨κ»˜ ν•  λ•Œ λ§μ΄μ§€μš”.
20:47
Thank you very much.
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λŒ€λ‹¨νžˆ κ°μ‚¬ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
이 μ›Ήμ‚¬μ΄νŠΈ 정보

이 μ‚¬μ΄νŠΈλŠ” μ˜μ–΄ ν•™μŠ΅μ— μœ μš©ν•œ YouTube λ™μ˜μƒμ„ μ†Œκ°œν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€. μ „ 세계 졜고의 μ„ μƒλ‹˜λ“€μ΄ κ°€λ₯΄μΉ˜λŠ” μ˜μ–΄ μˆ˜μ—…μ„ 보게 될 κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€. 각 λ™μ˜μƒ νŽ˜μ΄μ§€μ— ν‘œμ‹œλ˜λŠ” μ˜μ–΄ μžλ§‰μ„ 더블 ν΄λ¦­ν•˜λ©΄ κ·Έκ³³μ—μ„œ λ™μ˜μƒμ΄ μž¬μƒλ©λ‹ˆλ‹€. λΉ„λ””μ˜€ μž¬μƒμ— 맞좰 μžλ§‰μ΄ μŠ€ν¬λ‘€λ©λ‹ˆλ‹€. μ˜κ²¬μ΄λ‚˜ μš”μ²­μ΄ μžˆλŠ” 경우 이 문의 양식을 μ‚¬μš©ν•˜μ—¬ λ¬Έμ˜ν•˜μ‹­μ‹œμ˜€.

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