Marc Pachter: The art of the interview

譯者: Suet Mei Hau 審譯者: Shelley Krishna Tsang

The National Portrait Gallery is the place dedicated

國家肖像藝廊是一個

to presenting great American lives,

展示大美國生活和

amazing people.

有趣人物的地方。

And that's what it's about.

就是關於這些。

We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that's it.

我們用肖像圖，來塑像作為傳遞這個人物生命的手法，但僅是如此。

And so I'm not going to talk about the painted portrait today.

今天我不打算談那些畫作。

I'm going to talk about a program I started there,

我今天準備去談談我正在開展的計劃，

which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.

這個計劃，從我的角度，我認為是我所做過最值得驕傲的事。

I started to worry about the fact

我開始擔心，事實上，

that a lot of people don't get their portraits painted anymore,

有許多人並不再製作自己的肖像畫，

and they're amazing people,

而他們是很有意思的人，

and we want to deliver them to future generations.

我們又想把他們承傳到下一代。

So, how do we do that?

那麼，我們可以做些什麼?

And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.

於是，我開始構想一個活著的自我塑像系列。

And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically

這個活著的自我塑像系列基本是

my being a brush in the hand

由我作為畫筆的把他們描畫出來，

of amazing people who would come and I would interview.

找來那些有意思的人，讓我來訪談。

And so what I'm going to do is, not so much give you

我想跟你說的，不是這個節目

the great hits of that program,

能大熱起來的原因，

as to give you this whole notion

而是給你整個概念。

of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,

就是你怎樣在特定的處境之下遇見這個人，

what you try to find out about them,

而你盡力的去發掘關於他們的東西，

and when people deliver and when they don't and why.

那些他們想告訴你的，或是那些他們不想告訴你的，以及為什麼。

Now, I had two preconditions.

對於訪問對象，我是有兩個條件的。

One was that they be American.

第一，他們需要是美國人。

That's just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery,

這只是因為, 基本上, 這是國家肖像藝廊，

it's created to look at American lives.

這個是用來探討美國的生活。

That was easy, but then I made the decision,

這個容易, 但我也做了一個決定,

maybe arbitrary,

或是隨便的想法,

that they needed to be people of a certain age,

他們需要是一個到了某個年紀的人,

which at that point, when I created this program,

就在這裡, 我創造了這個節目,

seemed really old.

看來很老的。

Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.

六十歲, 七十歲, 八十歲甚至是九十歲。

For obvious reasons, it doesn't seem that old anymore to me.

很明顯的, 其實對我來說, 這些人並不是很老。

And why did I do that?

我為什麼要這樣做?

Well, for one thing, we're a youth-obsessed culture.

好, 是因為, 我們活在一個執著於年青的文化裡,

And I thought really what we need is an elders program

所以我認為我們需要一個給長者的節目,

to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.

只是坐在大人物的腳下, 聽聽他們怎樣說。

But the second part of it -- and the older I get,

但第二部份, 當我愈來愈老的時候,

the more convinced I am that that's true.

我愈是認為,

It's amazing what people will say when they know

當他們能說出自己的故事

how the story turned out.

是怎樣發展出來的, 這是有趣的。

That's the one advantage that older people have.

這也是老人家的其中一個優勢,

Well, they have other, little bit of advantage,

同時, 他們也有一點其他的優勢,

but they also have some disadvantages,

但他們也有點劣勢，

but the one thing they or we have is that

但重點是, 當他們或我們

we've reached the point in life

到達了人生的某個階段,

where we know how the story turned out.

我們知道自己的故事怎樣發生。

So, we can then go back in our lives,

於是, 我們可以回到自己的生活,

if we've got an interviewer who gets that,

如果剛好有一個訪談員能明白,

and begin to reflect on how we got there.

並且能反映出我們怎樣會變成這樣。

All of those accidents that wound up

總結過去所有的發生過的偶然

creating the life narrative that we inherited.

創造了我們對生命的描述。

So, I thought okay, now,

所以我覺得這個構思可以了,

what is it going to take to make this work?

我可以做些什麼讓它變得可行?

There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.

我們都知道這裡有許多不同的訪談,

There are the journalist interviews,

有新聞性的訪談,

which are the interrogation that is expected.

會冀望是尖銳的訪問形式。

This is somewhat against resistance

就是想著怎樣突破被訪者

and caginess on the part of the interviewee.

的抗拒和戒備。

Then there's the celebrity interview,

接著, 也有些名人的訪談,

where it's more important who's asking the question than who answers.

誰人做訪問者去問問題, 比起誰人去答問題更重要。

That's Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.

就好像 Barbara Walters 和其他的, 我們都喜歡的。

That's Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important

有Frost 跟Nixon 的訪問, 過程中好像Frost 比起 Nixon

as Nixon in that process.

更重要。

Fair enough.

這就够了。

But I wanted interviews that were different.

但我想有一個跟這些不一樣的訪談。

I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic,

我想的是, 我後來覺得, 應該是有同理心吧,

which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say

意思是, 能感受到他們想說的東西

and to be an agent of their self-revelation.

作為他們自我表達的代理人。

By the way, this was always done in public.

這好像經常在公眾節目中發生,

This was not an oral history program.

但這不是口述歷史節目,

This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual,

這是大約有三百人, 坐在這個人的腳下,

and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.

用我作為這幅自我肖像的畫筆,

Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.

現在, 我的技術已經變得了頗為精湛,

I didn't know it coming into it.

我也不知道怎樣變成的。

And the only reason I really know that

我只知道唯一的原由

is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fulbright,

是因為, 有一次我跟William Fullbright 參議員做了一個訪問,

and that was six months after he'd had a stroke.

這是他中風後六個月的事。

And he had never appeared in public since that point.

他自從中風後一直沒有公開露面,

This was not a devastating stroke,

這不是一個嚴重的中風,

but it did affect his speaking and so forth.

但卻影響了他的說話能力,

And I thought it was worth a chance,

但我卻認為值得一試,

he thought it was worth a chance,

他也認為值得一試,

and so we got up on the stage,

所以我們一起走上台。

and we had an hour conversation about his life,

我們大概談他的生活談了一小時,

and after that a woman rushed up to me,

接著, 有一個女人走過來,

essentially did,

就是這樣的,

and she said, "Where did you train as a doctor?"

她說: 『你在那裡被訓練成當醫生?』

And I said, "I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that."

我說: 『我從來沒有受過醫生的訓練, 我也沒有這樣自稱過。』

And she said, "Well, something very weird was happening.

她說: 『但有些很奇怪的東西發生了。

When he started a sentence, particularly

當他開始一句說話時, 尤其是

in the early parts of the interview,

在早段的訪問之中,

and paused, you gave him the word,

他停下來, 你就給他一個字,

the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,

讓他連結句子的尾段,

and by the end of it,

最後,

he was speaking complete sentences on his own."

他可以自己完整的說出了整句句子。』

I didn't know what was going on,

我並不知道發生什麼事,

but I was so part of the process of getting that out.

因為我投入了這個過程。

So I thought, okay, fine, I've got empathy,

於是, 我想, 好的, 我是能够體諒他的,

or empathy, at any rate,

或是同情, 在不同的層次裡,

is what's critical to this kind of interview.

這是這類訪問最重要的東西。

But then I began to think of other things.

跟著, 我開始想著其他事,

Who makes a great interview in this context?

在這樣的背景之中, 誰可以做偉大的訪談?

It had nothing to do with their intellect,

這大概跟智力沒有什麼關係,

the quality of their intellect.

也跟智力的質素沒有什麼關係,

Some of them were very brilliant,

有些人非常出色,

some of them were,

有些人,

you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals,

你知呢, 平常人很少會自稱是智者,

but it was never about that.

這不是智力的問題,

It was about their energy.

這是有關能量的。

It's energy that creates extraordinary interviews

是那種能創造非一般訪談

and extraordinary lives.

以及非一般生命的能量,

I'm convinced of it.

我是認同的。

And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.

這跟年輕的能量沒有關係,

These were people through their 90s.

有些人活到了九十歲。

In fact, the first person I interviewed

事實上, 我訪問的第一個人

was George Abbott, who was 97,

George Abbott, 他已經九十七歲了，

and Abbott was filled with the life force --

但他仍然充滿生命的力量

I guess that's the way I think about it -- filled with it.

我就是這樣想著, 充滿力量。

And so he filled the room,

而他也讓整個房間充滿了力量,

and we had an extraordinary conversation.

於是, 我們有了很不一樣的對談。

He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do

他原本是被認為最難纏的訪問對象

because he was famous for being silent,

因為他最出名的是保持沈默,

for never ever saying anything

他可以一直不說話

except maybe a word or two.

除了可能是一個字, 兩個字。

And, in fact, he did wind up opening up --

但事實上, 他最後竟然可以開放自己 --

by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.

其實, 從其他的方面, 我們可以窺見他的能量。

He subsequently got married again at 102,

他接著在102歲高齡結婚,

so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.

所以, 你也會知道, 他其實是有許多生命的力量。

But after the interview, I got a call,

但這個訪問 之後, 我收到一個電話,

very gruff voice, from a woman.

一把十分粗暴的聲音, 是一個女人來的,

I didn't know who she was,

我並不知道她是誰,

and she said, "Did you get George Abbott to talk?"

她說: 『你讓George Abbott說話?』

And I said, "Yeah. Apparently I did."

我說: 『對, 明顯的, 我有。』

And she said, "I'm his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton,

她說: 『我是他的舊女友, Maureen Stapleton，

and I could never do it."

但我永遠都做不到。』

And then she made me go up with the tape of it

她後來讓我聽了一個錄音帶

and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.

証明George Abbott 的確是能說話的。

So, you know, you want energy,

所以, 你需要能量,

you want the life force,

你需要生命的力量,

but you really want them also to think

但你更需要他們同時也認為

that they have a story worth sharing.

自己有一個值得分享的故事。

The worst interviews that you can ever have

我做過最差的訪問

are with people who are modest.

是跟那些謙虛的人做的訪問。

Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who's modest,

永遠不要跟一個謙虛的人走上講台

because all of these people have been assembled

因為當所有人聚集在那裡

to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,

準備去聽他們的故事時, 他們坐在那裡說,

"Aw, shucks, it was an accident."

『啊, 沒什麼的, 這只是一個意外。』

There's nothing that ever happens that justifies

這些沒有什麼的事情, 其實並不值得

people taking good hours of the day to be with them.

別人用上那天最好的時間在他們身上。

The worst interview I ever did: William L. Shirer.

我做過更壞的訪問: WIlliam L. Shirer

The journalist who did "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

那個做了『第三帝國的起落』的記者

This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months,

他曾經在六個月之內遇見過希特勒和甘地,

and every time I'd ask him about it, he'd say, "Oh, I just happened to be there.

每次我問有關這個部份, 他都會說: 『啊, 我只有剛好就在那裡

Didn't matter." Whatever.

沒有什麼的.....』諸如此類...

Awful.

可怕!

I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.

我永遠不會跟那些謙虛平庸的人做訪問。

They have to think that they did something

他們需要覺得自己做了一些

and that they want to share it with you.

想跟別人分享的東西。

But it comes down, in the end,

然後, 接下來

to how do you get through all the barriers we have.

就是怎樣去處理我們面前的障礙。

All of us are public and private beings,

我們都是活在私人和公眾的空間之中,

and if all you're going to get from the interviewee is their public self,

如果你只想讓別人看見被訪者的公眾形象,

there's no point in it.

這是沒有意思的。

It's pre-programmed. It's infomercial,

因為這是預定的。這是代言的廣告,

and we all have infomercials about our lives.

我們都會有自己人生的代言廣告,

We know the great lines, we know the great moments,

我們會知道那些偉大的台詞, 那些感動的時刻,

we know what we're not going to share,

我們也知道有些什麼是不會分享的,

and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.

以及為了不讓別人尷尬而點到即止。

This wasn't -- and some of you will remember

但這不是----也許有些人都會記得

Mike Wallace's old interviews --

Mike Wallace' 的舊訪問---

tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.

強硬, 進取等等。這些訪談也有一定的地位。

I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say,

我就儘量去讓他們說一些也許他們想說的東西，

to break out of their own cocoon of the public self,

去突破他們那些公眾認知形象背後的包袱，

and the more public they had been,

如果他們愈是公眾人物，

the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.

這種公眾的束縳便愈是根深蒂固。

And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment

讓我告訴你, 在整個訪問系列裡

that happened in this interview series.

我最壞和最好的時刻。

It all has to do with that shell that most of us have,

這些都跟我們的自我保護外殼有關的，

and particularly certain people.

尤其是一些特定的人。

There's an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.

這裡有個很不一般的女人名叫 Clare Boothe Luce。

It'll be your generational determinant

那就說出你生於什麼年代

as to whether her name means much to you.

如果她的名字對你來說是很熟悉的。

She did so much. She was a playwright.

她做了許多事, 她是一位劇作家。

She did an extraordinary play called "The Women."

她曾寫下一個十分出色的劇作, 名叫《女人們》

She was a congresswoman

她也是一位眾議員

when there weren't very many congresswomen.

當年並不很多女性的眾議員。

She was editor of Vanity Fair,

她是雜誌Vanity Fair 的編輯,

one of the great phenomenal women of her day.

她是一位在她的年代裡十分經典的女性。

And, incidentally, I call her

有一次, 偶然的, 我叫她做

the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.

右派的羅斯福夫人。

She was sort of adored on the Right

她是被右派所推崇

the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.

就好像羅斯福夫人被左派所推崇的一樣。

And, in fact, when we did the interview --

事實上, 我們做了這個訪談,

I did the living self-portrait with her --

我也給她做了活著的自我肖像,

there were three former directors of the CIA

當時三個前中央情報局的指揮官

basically sitting at her feet,

坐在她的腳下,

just enjoying her presence.

在欣賞她的訪問。

And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake,

我在想, 這應該一切都會順利得易如反掌,

because I always have preliminary talks with these people

因為, 我通常都會跟受訪者有些熱身的閒聊

for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

大概是十至十五分鐘。

We never talk before that because if you talk before,

我們並沒有說到正題, 因為如果你預先談過了,

you don't get it on the stage.

你便有不能把正題再次放在台上了。

So she and I had a delightful conversation.

我跟她有一段愉悅的對話。

We were on the stage and then --

接著我們走上台前--

by the way, spectacular.

是那種, 很壯觀的樣子。

It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce's look.

因為這是Clare Boothe Luce 看起來的模樣。

She was in a great evening gown.

她穿著一襲晚裝。

She was 80, almost that day of the interview,

在訪問的那天, 她差不多八十歲了

and there she was and there I was,

她在這裡, 我在那裡,

and I just proceeded into the questions.

我只是開始去問問題。

And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.

她竟然在戒備著我, 這簡直是難以置信!

Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss,

我問的任何問題, 她都會迴避, 然後略過,

and I was basically up there -- any of you

而我就在那裡, 好像大家一樣

in the moderate-to-full entertainment world

在這個娛樂至上的世界

know what it is to die onstage.

知道什麼是死在台上。

And I was dying. She was absolutely not giving me a thing.

我已經快要死去, 但她仍是決絕的不給我任何東西。

And I began to wonder what was going on,

我開始去思考究竟發生了什麼事,

and you think while you talk,

一直在說, 一直在想,

and basically, I thought, I got it.

後來,我想, 我知道了。

When we were alone, I was her audience.

當只有我們的時候, 我是她的聽眾。

Now I'm her competitor for the audience.

但在台上, 我便和她在爭奪聽眾。

That's the problem here, and she's fighting me for that,

這就是問題, 她在跟我爭奪,

and so then I asked her a question --

跟著, 我問了她一個問題--

I didn't know how I was going to get out of it --

我其實並不知道我該怎樣從這處境之中逃脫--

I asked her a question about her days as a playwright,

我問了她一個她過去做劇作家的問題,

and again, characteristically,

再次的,很經典的,

instead of saying, "Oh yes, I was a playwright, and this is what blah blah blah,"

她沒有說: 『啊對, 我是劇作家........什麼..... 什麼......』

she said, "Oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.

她卻說: 『啊, 劇作家, 每個人都知道我是劇作家,

Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress."

很多人都以為我是演員, 我從來沒做過演員。』

But I hadn't asked that, and then she went off on a tear,

但我還沒有問及, 她卻竟然流下淚來,

and she said, "Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.

她說, 『對, 曾經有一次, 我是一個演員,

It was for a charity in Connecticut when I was a congresswoman,

那次只是為Connecticut 做一個慈善的演員, 我那時還是眾議員,

and I got up there," and she went on and on, "And then I got on the stage."

我上了台』, 她繼續說: 『 我上了台。』

And then she turned to me and said,

接著, 她轉向對我說,

"And you know what those young actors did?

『你知道當時那些年青演員做些什麼?

They upstaged me." And she said, "Do you know what that is?"

他們把我的風頭都搶走了。』然後她說: 『你知道什麼是搶風頭嗎?』

Just withering in her contempt.

我在她的輕蔑之中低下頭來。

And I said, "I'm learning."

我說: 『我正在學習。』

(Laughter)

笑聲

And she looked at me, and it was like the successful arm-wrestle,

她看一看我, 然後她看來好像在我們的角力之中勝出了,

and then, after that, she delivered an extraordinary account

接著, 她說出了一段

of what her life really was like.

她偉大的生命故事的演辭。

I have to end that one. This is my tribute to Clare Boothe Luce.

我就說到此, 這是我對Clare Boothe Luce的感謝辭。

Again, a remarkable person.

再次的, 她是一個很出色的人物,

I'm not politically attracted to her, but through her life force,

我不是因為政治的立場而被她吸引, 我是因為她的生命力,

I'm attracted to her.

而我被她吸引。

And the way she died -- she had, toward the end, a brain tumor.

而她當時正邁向死亡---她當時正患腦癌的末期。

That's probably as terrible a way to die as you can imagine,

在你可以想像的情況下, 這可能是很可怖的一種死亡方法,

and very few of us were invited to a dinner party.

我們被邀請到一個晚飯派對。

And she was in horrible pain.

而她卻在很可怕的痛症之中。

We all knew that.

我們都是知道。

She stayed in her room.

她留在她的房間內。

Everybody came. The butler passed around canapes.

每一個人來到, 男僕人在給我們夾心麵包,

The usual sort of thing.

很平常的事。

Then at a certain moment, the door opened

直到某個時間, 門開了

and she walked out perfectly dressed, completely composed.

她穿著十分講究整齊的出現了。

The public self, the beauty, the intellect,

那個公眾形象的她，美人，智者，

and she walked around and talked to every person there

她四處走動去跟每個人談著

and then went back into the room and was never seen again.

跟著回到她的房間, 然後往後沒有再見到她。

She wanted the control of her final moment, and she did it amazingly.

她想去控制她最後的時刻, 她也做得十分令人驚訝。

Now, there are other ways that you get somebody to open up,

現在, 其實也有另外的方法來讓別人開放的表白自己,

and this is just a brief reference.

這只是一個簡單的參考。

It wasn't this arm-wrestle,

這不是臂力較勁,

but it was a little surprising for the person involved.

但也會讓有關的人感到點點驚奇。

I interviewed Steve Martin. It wasn't all that long ago.

在不久之前, 我訪問了史提芬 馬田 (Steve Martin).

And we were sitting there,

我們坐在那裡,

and almost toward the beginning of the interview,

在快要到訪問的開始的時候,

I turned to him and I said, "Steve," or "Mr. Martin,

我轉頭跟他說: 『史提芬，或者，馬田先生，

it is said that all comedians have unhappy childhoods.

有人說過, 所有的笑匠, 都曾有一個不快樂的童年。

Was yours unhappy?"

你的童年不快樂嗎?』

And he looked at me, you know, as if to say,

他看著我, 你知道嗎，好像在說：

"This is how you're going to start this thing, right off?"

『你就這樣開始這個訪問, 是嗎?』

And then he turned to me, not stupidly,

接著, 他轉向我, 並不愚蠢的,

and he said, "What was your childhood like?"

他說: 『那你的童年又如何?』

And I said -- these are all arm wrestles, but they're affectionate --

我會說---這些全是較勁的, 但仍然很有風度--

and I said, "My father was loving and supportive,

我說:『 我的父親對我很好, 也很支持我,

which is why I'm not funny."

所以我並不有趣。』

(Laughter)

笑聲

And he looked at me, and then we heard the big sad story.

他看著我, 跟著我們聽到了一個大悲慘故事。

His father was an SOB,

他的父親是一個狗娘養的,

and, in fact, he was another comedian with an unhappy childhood,

事實上, 他的父親也是另一個有著悲慘童年的笑匠。

but then we were off and running.

就在這, 我們的對話起跑了。

So the question is:

所以問題是:

What is the key that's going to allow this to proceed?

在讓這些過程開展之中, 究竟有什麼的關鍵?

Now, these are arm wrestle questions,

看來, 好像是一些有較勁的問題,

but I want to tell you about questions

但我想告訴你問題

that are more related to empathy

其實這些問題跟同理心更有關係

and that really, very often, are the questions

但它們，通常，是那些

that people have been waiting their whole lives to be asked.

人們用了一生的時間來等待被問的那些問題。

And I'll just give you two examples of this because of the time constraints.

因為時間的關係,我給你們兩個例子。

One was an interview I did with one of the great American biographers.

其中一個是, 我曾訪問美國一位出名的傳記作者。

Again, some of you will know him, most of you won't, Dumas Malone.

再次的, 也許有些人會認識他, 大部份人也許不認識他 Dumas Malone.

He did a five-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson,

他共寫了五冊湯瑪斯•傑弗遜（Thomas Jefferson）的傳記，

spent virtually his whole life with Thomas Jefferson,

差不多用了自己整個生命跟Thomas Jefferson在一起,

and by the way, at one point I asked him,

打岔一下，就在那時, 我問他,

"Would you like to have met him?"

『你喜歡遇上他嗎?』

And he said, "Well, of course,

他說: 『當然!

but actually, I know him better than anyone who ever met him,

但事實上, 我比起任何人都更了解他,

because I got to read all of his letters."

因為我曾閱讀他的所有書信。』

So, he was very satisfied with the kind of relationship they had over 50 years.

所以, 他對於跟Thomas Jefferson有過這五十多年的關係而感到很榮幸。

And I asked him one question.

我接著再問他一個問題,

I said, "Did Jefferson ever disappoint you?"

我問: 『那Thomas Jefferson曾經讓你失望嗎?』

And here is this man who had given his whole life to uncovering Jefferson

我眼前的人, 他曾付出他的整個生命去發掘Thomas Jefferson,

and connecting with him,

以及跟他聯繫,

and he said, "Well ..." -- I'm going to do a bad southern accent.

他接著說:『 這個…… 』-- 我會用不好的南方口音演繹。

Dumas Malone was from Mississippi originally.

Dumas Malone 原本來自密西西比。

But he said, "Well," he said, "I'm afraid so."

但他說: 『這…… 大概是有的。』

He said, "You know, I've read everything,

他說: 『你知嗎? 我讀過所有東西，

and sometimes Mr. Jefferson would smooth the truth a bit."

有時, Mr. Jefferson會把真相潤飾一下。』

And he basically was saying that this was a man

他基本上在說著, 人都是

who lied more than he wished he had,

撒一些他不是太自願的謊

because he saw the letters.

因為他曾看過那些信件。

He said, "But I understand that." He said, "I understand that."

他說: 『但我會體諒的。』 他說, 『我會體諒的。』

He said, "We southerners do like a smooth surface,

他說: 『我們南方的人都會喜歡一些較圓滑的外表，

so that there were times when he just didn't want the confrontation."

只是因為他不想有太多的直接對質而已。』

And he said, "Now, John Adams was too honest."

他接著說: 『反而 John Adams 是太誠實了。』

And he started to talk about that, and later on he invited me to his house,

他便於是開始轉話題了, 之後, 他曾邀請我到他的家,

and I met his wife who was from Massachusetts,

我認識了他那來自Massachusetts的太太,

and he and she had exactly the relationship

他和她有著跟Thomas Jefferson 和John Adams

of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.

相同的關係。

She was the New Englander and abrasive,

她是新英倫人, 也有點粗野,

and he was this courtly fellow.

但他卻是宮廷的隨從。

But really the most important question I ever asked,

但事實上, 我問過的最重要的問題是,

and most of the times when I talk about it,

那些我經常掛在口邊的,

people kind of suck in their breath at my audacity, or cruelty,

或是那些讓人在我的大膽和進取之中凝住呼吸的,

but I promise you it was the right question.

我可以告訴你, 那些就是對的問題。

This was to Agnes de Mille.

這是給Agnes de Mille的。

Agnes de Mille is one of the great choreographers in our history.

Agnes de Mille 是我們歷史上最偉大的編舞者。

She basically created the dances in "Oklahoma,"

她創造了Oklahoma 的舞蹈,

transforming the American theater.

改變了美國的劇場。

An amazing woman.

一個很出色的女性。

At the time that I proposed to her that --

當我想邀請她時--

by the way, I would have proposed to her; she was extraordinary --

其實,我應該更早的邀請她, 她是如此的出色--

but proposed to her that she come on.

我邀請她前來。

She said, "Come to my apartment."

她說:『 來我的公寓吧。』

She lived in New York.

她住在紐約。

"Come to my apartment and we'll talk for those 15 minutes,

『來我的公寓, 我們可以談約十五分鐘,

and then we'll decide whether we proceed."

那我們就可以決定是否要繼續進行。』

And so I showed up in this dark, rambling New York apartment,

於是, 我到了那個黑漆的紐約公寓,

and she called out to me, and she was in bed.

她睡在床上, 大聲的叫我。

I had known that she had had a stroke,

我已經知道她曾經中風,

and that was some 10 years before.

但已經是十年前了的。

And so she spent almost all of her life in bed,

所以, 她生命的大部份時間都是耗在床上,

but -- I speak of the life force --

但, 我想說的是生命力---

her hair was askew.

她的頭髮有點凌亂。

She wasn't about to make up for this occasion.

她還沒有準備為這場合而整裝。

And she was sitting there surrounded by books,

她坐著的地方被書本重重圍著,

and her most interesting possession she felt at that moment

在那一刻, 她最著緊的

was her will, which she had by her side.

是她的遺囑, 就放在她的身邊。

She wasn't unhappy about this. She was resigned.

她並沒有為這而不快樂, 她看破了。

She said, "I keep this will by my bed, memento mori,

她說：『我會把這遺囑放在床邊,

and I change it all the time

因為我會常常更新

just because I want to."

只是因為我想這樣做。』

And she was loving the prospect of death as much as she had loved life.

她喜歡死後的來生, 就好像她喜愛自己的生命一樣。

I thought, this is somebody I've got to get in this series.

我想，這就是我想放在節目系列裡的人，

She agreed.

她同意。

She came on. Of course she was wheelchaired on.

她來了, 當然她是坐著輪椅前來。

Half of her body was stricken, the other half not.

她有半身不能動彈, 但另半身卻沒有問題。

She was, of course, done up for the occasion,

她當然是, 好好的整裝來到,

but this was a woman in great physical distress.

但這是個身體非常殘缺的女性。

And we had a conversation,

我們有一段對話,

and then I asked her this unthinkable question.

我問了她一個從未想過的問題。

I said, "Was it a problem for you in your life that you were not beautiful?"

我說: 『不漂亮會是你人生的難題嗎? 』

And the audience just -- you know,

那些聽眾只是--- 你知道，

they're always on the side of the interviewee,

他們常常是站在受訪者那一邊，

and they felt that this was a kind of assault,

他們會覺得這是一種攻擊，

but this was the question she had

但這竟然是一個

wanted somebody to ask her whole life.

她一生都想別人來問的問題。

And she began to talk about her childhood, when she was beautiful,

她開始談到她的童年，當她還是很漂亮的時候，

and she literally turned -- here she was, in this broken body --

跟著她轉到 -- 那時的她, 在那殘缺的身軀裡 --

and she turned to the audience and

接著, 她轉向聽眾

described herself as the fair demoiselle

形容她自己好像是妙齡少女

with her red hair and her light steps and so forth,

般有著紅色頭髮和輕盈的步伐，

and then she said, "And then puberty hit."

然後她說: 『接著青春期便來了。』

And she began to talk about things that had happened

她開始談到所有發生

to her body and her face,

在她臉上和身體上的事,

and how she could no longer count on her beauty,

現在她已經不可以再依靠自己的美麗，

and her family then treated her like the ugly sister of the beautiful one

還有家裡認為她已成了醜陋的姊姊，

for whom all the ballet lessons were given.

而美麗的妹妹都可以去上所有的芭蕾舞課。

And she had to go along just to be with her sister for company,

而她只能陪著妹妹去上堂，

and in that process, she made a number of decisions.

在這過程裡, 她做了許多決定。

First of all, was that dance, even though

第一, 跳舞, 即使

it hadn't been offered to her, was her life.

並沒有安排給她, 卻是她的生命。

And secondly, she had better be,

第二, 她雖然只跳了一段時間的舞, ,

although she did dance for a while, a choreographer

但她還是認為當一個編舞師較好

because then her looks didn't matter.

因為作為編舞師, 樣子不是一個大問題。

But she was thrilled to get that out as a real, real fact in her life.

當這個夢想能成真的時候, 她是真的激動不已。

It was an amazing privilege to do this series.

能做這樣的一個系列, 是一個很大的榮幸。

There were other moments like that, very few moments of silence.

還有其他的讓人激動的時刻, 也有一些沉默的時刻。

The key point was empathy

最大的重點是同理心

because everybody in their lives

因為每一個人在他的人生之中

is really waiting for people to ask them questions,

是真切的等待別人去問他們問題,

so that they can be truthful about who they are

於是, 他們就能够坦誠的面對自己是誰

and how they became what they are,

以及自己怎樣去變成這樣的我,

and I commend that to you, even if you're not doing interviews.

我會勸告你們, 即使你不是在做訪談。

Just be that way with your friends

即使只是和朋友閒聊，

and particularly the older members of your family.

尤其是一些較年長的家人相處，也要保持這樣的方式。

Thank you very much.

謝謝大家!