Alison Jackson: A surprising look at celebrity

Prevodilac: Sandra Gojic Lektor: Ivana Korom

I'm a contemporary artist and I show in art galleries and museums.

Ja sam savremeni umetnik i izlažem u galerijama i muzejima.

I show a number of photographs and films,

Izlažem brojne fotografije i filmove,

but I also make television programs, books and some advertising,

ali takođe pravim program za televiziju, knjige i nešto reklama,

all with the same concept.

sve sa istom idejom.

And it's about our fixation with celebrity and celebrity culture,

A to je naša fiksacija za slavne i kulturu slavnih,

and the importance of the image:

i važnost slike.

celebrity is born of photography.

Slavna ličnost je rođena na fotografiji.

I'm going to start with how I started with this concept seven years ago,

Tako da ću početi sa time kako sam počela sa ovim konceptom pre sedam godina,

when Princess Diana died.

kada je princeza Dajana umrla.

There was a sort of a standstill in Britain

Postojala je neka vrsta zastoja u Britaniji tog dana,

the moment of her death,

ili momenta kada je umrla,

and people decided to mourn her death in a sort of mass way.

i ljudi su odlučili da je oplakuju na jedan masovan način.

I was fascinated by this phenomenon,

Bila sam fascinirana ovim fenomenom.

so I wondered:

I upitala sam se:

could one erase the image of Diana, actually quite crudely and physically?

da li bi neko zapravo mogao da obriše sliku Dajane prilično grubo i fizički?

So, I got a gun and started to shoot at the image of Diana,

Uzela sam pištolj i počela da pucam u sliku Dajane.

but I couldn't erase this from my memory

Ali nisam mogla da izbrišem ovo iz mog pamćenja,

and certainly it was not being erased from the public psyche.

i sigurno nije moglo biti izbrisano iz kolektivne psihe.

Momentum was being built.

Polet je počeo da se stvara.

The press wrote about her death in rather, I felt, pornographic ways --

Štampa je pisala o njenoj smrti na neki, po meni, pornografski način,

like, "Which bit of artery left which bit of body?"

kao, koja je arterija napustila koje deo tela,

and "How did she die in the back of the car?" --

i kako je umrla na zadnjem delu automobila.

and I was intrigued by this sort of mass voyeurism,

I bila sam intrigirana ovom vrstom masovnog voajerizma.

so I made these rather gory images.

Pa sam napravila ove donekle krvave slike.

I then went on wondering whether I could actually replace her image,

Onda sam počela da se pitam da li bih ustvari mogla da zamenim njen lik.

so I got a look-alike of Diana

Našla sam osobu koja liči na Dajanu,

and posed her in the right positions and angles

i postavila je na određenu poziciju pod određenim uglom,

and created something that was in, or existed in, the public imagination.

i stvorila nešto što je postojalo u mašti javnosti.

So people were wondering: was she going to marry Dodi?

Ljudi su se pitali, da li će se udati za Dodija?

Was she in love with him?

Da li je bila zaljubljena u njega?

Was she pregnant? Did she want his baby?

Da li je bila trudna? Da li je želela njegovu bebu?

Was she pregnant when she died?

Da li je bila trudna kada je umrla?

So I created this image of Diana, Dodi and their imaginary mixed-race child

Tako da sam stvorila taj lik Dajane, Dodija i njihovog zamišljenog deteta pomešane rase.

and this image came out, which caused a huge public outcry at the time.

I ta slika je objavljena, što je izazvalo ogromno negodovanje javnosti u to vreme.

I then went on to make more comments on the media and press imagery,

Onda sam počela da pravim više komentara o medijima i imidžu štampe.

so I started making reference to media imagery --

Tako sam počela da se obraćam medijskoj slici -

made it grainy, shot through doorways and so on and so forth --

napravila bih zrnastu, uhvaćenu kroz ulaz i tako dalje,

to titillate the public or the viewer further

da podstaknem publiku ili gledaoca dalje,

in terms of trying to make the viewer more aware of their own voyeurism.

u smislu pokušavanja da učinim gledaoce svesnijim njihovog sopstvenog voajerizma.

So, this is an image of Diana looking at Camilla kissing her husband,

Ovo je fotografija gde Dajana gleda Kamilu kako ljubi njenog muža.

and this was a sequence of images.

Ovo je niz fotografija.

And this gets shown in art galleries like this, as a sequence.

I ovo se prikazuje u umetničkim galerijama na taj način, kao niz,

And similarly with the Di-Dodian baby imagery --

i slično, sa fotografijom Di - Dodi bebe.

this is another art gallery installation.

Ovo je još jedna instalacija u umetničkoj galeriji.

I'm particularly interested in how you can't rely on your own perception.

Posebno sam zainteresovana za to kako se ne možemo osloniti na sopstvenu percepciju.

This is Jane Smith and Jo Bloggs, for instance,

Ovo je Džejn Smit i Džo Blogs, na primer,

but you think it's Camilla and the Queen,

ali mislite da su Kamila i Kraljica.

and I'm fascinated how what you think is real isn't necessarily real.

Fascinirana sam kako ono što mislite da je stvarno nije nužno stvarno,

And the camera can lie,

i aparat može da laže.

and it makes it very, very easy

I veoma, veoma je lako

with the mass bombardment of imagery to tell untruths.

govoriti neistinu masovnim bombardovanjem slikama.

So, I continued to work on this project of how photography seduces us

Nastavila sam da radim na projektu o tome kako nas fotografija zavodi,

and is more interesting to look at than the actual real subject matter.

i zanimljivija je za gledanje nego stvaran predmet stvari.

And at the same time, it removes us from the real subject matter,

I u isto vreme, sklanja nas od stvarnog subjekta.

and this acts as a sort of titillating thing.

I ovo postane neka vrsta golicave stvari.

So, the photograph becomes this teaser and incites desire and voyeurism;

Dakle, fotografija postane izazivač i podstiče želju i voajerizam.

what you can't have, you want more.

Ono što ne možete da imate, još više želite.

In the photograph, the real subject doesn't exist

Dakle, u fotografiji, pravi subjekt ne postoji.

so it makes you want that person more.

Tako da čini da želite tu osobu još više.

And that is the way, I think, that celebrity magazines work now:

I mislim da je to način na koji časopisi o poznatima danas funkcionišu.

the more pictures you see of these celebrities,

Što više fotografija ovih poznatih ličnosti vidite,

the more you feel you know them,

više osećate da ih znate,

but you don't know them

ali ne znate ih,

and you want to know them further.

i želite više da ih upoznate.

Of course, the Queen goes to her stud often to watch her horses ...

Naravno Kraljica odlazi do staje često da bi gledala svoje konje ...

watch her horses. (Laughter).

gleda svoje konje. (smeh)

And then I was sort of making imagery.

Onda sam na neki način pravila slike.

In England there's an expression: "you can't imagine the Queen on the loo."

U Engleskoj postoji izraz: "Ne možete zamisliti kraljicu u toaletu."

So I'm trying to penetrate that.

Tako da pokušavam da probijem to.

Well, here is the image.

Pa, evo je fotografija.

All this imagery was creating a lot of fuss

Sve ove fotografije su stvarale mnogo pometnje.

and I was cited as a disgusting artist. The press were writing about this,

I bila sam citirana kao odvratna umetnica. Štampa je pisala o ovome,

giving full pages about how terrible this was.

znate, puneći čitave strane o tome kako je to strašno,

Which I found very interesting that it was going full cycle:

i bilo mi je vrlo zanimljivo da se napravio pun krug.

I was making comments about the press

Komentarisala sam o štampi,

and about how we know facts and information only by media --

i kako znamo činjenice i informacije samo preko medija

because we don't know the real people;

jer ne znamo prave ljude.

very few of us know the real people --

Vrlo malo nas zna prave ljude.

but it was going back into the press

Ali to se vraćalo u štampu,

and they were publicizing, effectively, my filthy work.

i oni su objavljivali, efektivno, moj prljavi rad.

So, these are broadsheets, tabloids, debates were being had all about this work,

Novine, tabloidi, debate su govorile o ovome, sve o ovom radu.

films were being banned before people had actually had the look at the work,

Filmovi su bili zabranjivani pre nego što su ljudi mogli da pogledaju rad.

politicians were getting involved --

Političari su počeli da se mešaju.

all sorts of things -- great headlines.

Svakakve stvari, veliki naslovi.

Then suddenly, it started to get on front pages.

Onda je odjednom počelo da stiže na naslovne strane.

I was being asked and paid to do front covers.

Pitali su me i plaćali da radim naslovne strane.

Suddenly I was becoming sort of acceptable,

Odjednom su počeli da me prihvataju,

which I found also fascinating.

što sam smatrala, znate, takođe fascinantnim.

How one moment -- it was disgusting --

Kako je u jednom momentu to bilo odvratno -

journalists would lie to me to get a story or a photograph of me,

novinari su me lagali da bi dobili priču ili moju fotografiju,

saying my work was wonderful,

govoreći da je moj rad sjajan,

and the next minute there were terrible headlines about me.

a sledećeg momenta pojavili bi se strašni naslovi o meni.

But then this changed suddenly.

Ali onda se ovo promenilo, iznenada.

I then started to work for magazines and newspapers.

Počela sam onda da radim za časopise i novine.

This was, for example, an image that went into Tatler.

Ovo je, na primer, fotografija objavljena u "Tatleru".

This was another newspaper image.

Ovo je još jedna novinska fotografija.

It was an April fool actually, and to this day some people think it's real.

BIla je to prvoaprilska šala ustvari, i do današnjeg dana, neki ljudi misle da je stvarna.

I was sitting next to someone at dinner the other day,

Sedela sam pored nekoga za večerom pre neki dan,

and they were saying there's this great image of the Queen

i govorili su kako postoji ta sjajna fotografija Kraljice

sitting outside William Hill.

ispred Vilijam Hila.

They thought it was real.

Mislili su da je stvarna.

I was exploring, at the time, the hyperbole of icons --

Istraživala sam, u to vreme, hiperbolu ikona,

and Diana and Marilyn -- and the importance of celebrity in our lives.

i Dajanu i Merilin i važnost slave u našim životima.

How they wheedle their way into the collective psyche

Kako su pronašle svoj put u kolektivnu svest

without us even knowing,

bez našeg znanja,

and how that should happen.

i kako to treba da se dogodi.

I explored with actually dressing up as the celebrities myself.

Istraživala sam zapravo i oblačeći se kao poznate ličnosti.

There's me as Diana --

Ovo sam ja kao Dajana.

I look like the mass murderer Myra Hindley, I think, in this one. (Laughter).

Mislim da na ovoj izgledam kao masovni ubica Majra Henli. (smeh).

And me as the Queen.

I ja kao Kraljica.

I then continued on to make a whole body of work about Marilyn --

Nastavila sam onda da radim čitav projekat o Marilin,

the biggest icon of all --

najvećoj od svih ikona.

and trying to titillate by shooting through doorways and shutters and so on and so forth,

I pokušavala da zagolicam snimajući kroz ulaze i žaluzine i tako dalje.

and only showing certain angles to create a reality that, obviously,

I pokazujući samo određene uglove da bi stvorila realnost koja je, očigledno,

is completely constructed.

potpuno konstruisana.

This is the look-alike, so the crafting elements of this is completely enormous.

Ovo je osoba koja liči na nju, tako da je sklapanje ovih elemanata strašno veliko.

She looks nothing like Marilyn,

Ona ni malo ne izgleda kao Merilin.

but by the time we've made her up and put wigs and makeup on,

Ali kada smo je sredili i kada smo stavili periku i šminku,

she looks exactly like Marilyn,

ona u potpunosti izgleda kao Merilin,

to the extent that her husband couldn't recognize her --

toliko da je čak ni njen muž nije prepoznao,

or recognize this look-alike -- in these photographs,

ili da prepozna da je ona imitator, na ovim fotografija,

which I find quite interesting.

što smatram vrlo zanimljivim.

So, all this work is getting shown in art galleries.

Dakle, sav ovaj rad se prikazuje u umetničkim galerijama.

Then I made a book.

Onda sam napravila knjigu.

I was also making a TV series for the BBC at the time.

Takođe sam pravila TV serije za BBC u ono vreme.

Stills from the TV series went into this book.

Fotografije iz serija su ušle u ovu knjigu.

But there was a real legal problem because it looks real,

Ali postojao je zaista veliki pravni problem jer je izgledalo stvarno,

but how do you get over that?

ali kako preći preko toga?

Because obviously it's making a comment about our culture right now:

Jer očigledno komentariše našu trenutnu kulturu,

that we can't tell what's real.

da ne možemo da kažemo šta je stvarnost.

How do we know when we're looking at something whether it's real or not?

Kako da znamo, kada gledamo u nešto, da li je stvarno ili ne?

So, from my point of view, it's important to publish it,

Sa moje tačke gledišta, važno je to objaviti,

but at the same time it does cause a confusion --

ali istovremeno stvara konfuziju --

intentional on my behalf,

namerno sa moje strane -

but problematic for any outlet that I'm working with.

ali problematično za bilo koga sa kim radim.

So a big disclaimer is put on everything that I do,

Veliko odricanje prava je vezano za sve što radim,

and I made narratives about all the European or Brit celebrities

i napravila sam neku vrstu priče o svim evropskim i britanskim zvezdama

and comments about our public figures.

i komentare o našim javnim ličnostima.

You know, what does Tony Blair get up to in private with his fashion guru?

Znate, šta Toni Bler radi privatno sa svojim modnim guruom?

And also dealing with the perceptions that are put about

Baveći se takođe percepcijom

Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, the links that were put about pre-Iraq war.

Bin Ladena, Sadama Huseina, linkovima koji su postavljeni pre rata u Iraku.

And what is going to happen to the monarchy?

I šta će se dogoditi sa kraljevinom

Because obviously the British public,

jer očigledno britanska javnost,

I think, would prefer William to Charles on the throne.

mislim, bi radije Vilijama nego Čarlsa na prestolu.

And it's that wish, or that desire, that I suppose I'm dealing with in my work.

I ono što oni žele ili ono za čim čeznu, je ono čime se, pretpostavljam bavim u svom radu.

I'm not really interested in the celebrity themselves.

Ja nisam zainteresovana za slavne.

I'm interested in the perception of the celebrity.

Zanima me percepcija slavnih.

And with some look-alikes, they are so good

I sa onima koji na njih podsećaju, oni su tako dobri.

you don't know whether they're real or not.

Ne znate da li su stvarni ili ne.

I did an advertising campaign for Schweppes, which is Coca-Cola,

Uradila sam reklamnu kampanju za Šveps, što je Koka - Kola,

and so that was very interesting in terms of the legalities.

i to je bilo vrlo zanimljivo u pravnom smislu.

It's highly commercial.

Visoko je komercijalna.

But it was a difficulty for me -- because this is my artwork;

Ali bilo je teško za mene jer je to moj umetnički rad.

should I do advertising? -- at the time.

Da li da radim reklame, u to vreme?

So I made sure the work was not compromised in any way

Pobrinula sam se da rad ne bude ni na koji način kompromitovan,

and that the integrity of the work remained the same.

i da integritet rada ostane isti.

But the meanings changed in the sense that with the logo on,

Ali značenje se promenilo, u smislu da sa logom,

you're closing all the lines of interpretation down to selling a product

zatvarate sve puteve interpretacije na prodaju proizvoda -

and that's all you're doing.

i to je sve što radite.

When you take the logo off, you're opening up the interpretations

Kada skinete logo, otvarate interpretacije

and making the work inconclusive,

i činite rad nezaključivim.

opposed to conclusive when you are advertising.

Nasuprot zaključivom, kada se reklamirate.

This image is quite interesting, actually,

Ova fotografija je prilično zanimljiva ustvari,

because I think we made it three years ago.

zato što mislim da smo je napravili pre tri godine,

And it's Camilla in her wedding dress, which, again,

i to je Kamila u njenoj venčanici, koja je, ponovo,

nearly got re-used now, recently prior to her wedding.

nedavno ponovo iskorišćena, neposredno pre njenog venčanja.

Tony Blair and Cherie. And again, the legalities -- we had to be very careful.

Toni Bler i Čeri. I opet, prava - morali smo da budemo vrlo obazrivi.

It's obviously a very big commercial company, and so this little,

Bila je to očigledno velika reklamna kampanja i uradili smo tu malu

"Shh -- it's not really them,"

"Pssst .... znate da to nisu stvarno oni"

was put on the side of the imagery.

stvaljeno je sa strane fotografije.

And Margaret Thatcher visiting Jeffery Archer in jail.

I Margaret Tačer kako posećuje Džefrija Arčera u zatvoru.

I then was asked by Selfridges to do a series of windows for them,

"Selfridžis" me je potom angažovao da uradim seriju izloga za njih.

so I built a sauna bath in one of their windows and created little scenes --

Izgradila sam saunu u jednom od njihovih izloga i napravila male scene -

live scenes with look-alikes inside the windows,

žive scene sa imitatorima u izlogu,

and the windows were all steamed up.

a prozori su bili zamagljeni.

So, it's Tony Blair reading and practicing his speech;

Tako je Toni Bler čitao i vežbao svoj govor.

I've got them doing yoga inside there with Carole Caplin;

Radili su jogu unutra sa Kerol Kaplin,

Sven making out with Ulrika Jonsson, who he was having an affair with at that time.

Sven se ljubio sa Ulrikom Džonson, sa kojom je imao aferu u to vreme.

This was a huge success for them

Ovo je bio ogroman uspeh za njih

because the imagery got shown in the press the day after

jer je postavka prikazana u štampi dan posle

in every single newspaper, broadsheets and tabloids.

u svim novinama, časopisima i tabloidima.

It was a bit of a road stopper, which was problematic

Stvaralo je to pomalo zastoj u saobraćaju, što je bilo problematično

because the police kept on trying to clear away the crowds,

jer je policija pokušavala da raščisti gužvu.

but huge fun -- it was great for me to do a performance.

Ali velika zabava - bilo je sjajno za mene da radim performans.

Also, people were taking photographs of this,

Takođe, ljudi su ovo fotografisali,

so it was being texted around the world extremely quickly, all this imagery.

tako je ova postavka bila poslata širom sveta vrlo brzo.

And the press were interviewing, and I was signing my book. (Laughter).

I štampa je intervjuisala, ja sam potpisivala knjigu. (smeh).

Further imagery. I'm making a new book now with Taschen

Sledeće fotografije: Ja pravim novu knjigu sa "Taschen",

that I'm working on really for a sort of global market --

sa kojim radim na globalnom tržištu.

my previous book was only for the U.K. market --

Moja prethodna knjiga je bila samo za britansko tržište.

that I suppose it could be called humorous.

Ali pretpostavljam da bi se moglo nazvati smešnim.

I suppose I come from a sort of non-humorous background

Pretpostavljam da dolazim iz ne-humorističkog okruženja,

with serious intent,

znate, sa ozbiljnim namerama.

and then suddenly my work is funny.

I odjednom moj rad je smešan.

And I think it doesn't really matter that my work is considered humorous, in a way;

I mislim da nije važno da li je moj rad smatran smešnim, na neki način -

I think it's a way in for me to deal with the importance of imagery

mislim da je za mene to način da se bavim važnošću slika,

and how we read all our information through imagery.

i kako čitamo sve informacije preko slika.

It's an extremely fast way of getting information.

To je ekstremno brz način prikupljanja informacija.

It's extremely difficult if it's constructed correctly,

Vrlo je teško ako je pravilno postavljeno,

and there are techniques of constructing iconic imagery.

i postoje tehnike pravljenja imidža ikone.

This image, for example, is sort of spot-on

Mislim ova slika, na primer, je neka vrsta primera

because it exactly sums up what Elton may be doing in private,

jer tačno sumira ono što bi Elton mogao da radi privatno,

and also what might be happening with Saddam Hussein, and George Bush

i takođe šta bi moglo da se događa sa Sadamom Huseinom, i Džrodž Buš

reading the Koran upside-down.

koji čita Kuran naopako.

For example, George Bush target practice --

Na primer, Džordž Bušov trening gađanja,

shooting at Bin Laden and Michael Moore.

puca u Bin Ladena i Majkla Mura.

And then you change the photograph he's shooting at,

I onda promenite fotografiju u koju puca,

and it suddenly becomes rather grim and maybe less accessible. (Laughter).

i odjednom postane prilično sumorna i možda manje pristupačna. (smeh)

Tony Blair being used as a mounting block,

Toni Bler iskorišćen kao blok za montiranje.

and Rumsfeld and Bush laughing with some Abu Ghraib photos behind,

I Ramsfeld i Buš kako se smeju sa nekim fotografijama iz Abu Graiba iza,

and the seriousness, or the intellect, of Bush.

i ozbiljnost ili intelekt, Buša.

And also, commenting on the behind the scenes --

I komentarišu događaje iza scene,

well, as we know now -- what goes on in prisons.

kao što svi znamo sada, šta se dešava u zatvorima.

And in fact, George Bush and Tony Blair

I ustvari Džordž Buš i Toni Bler

are having great fun during all of this.

se dobro zabavaljaju za vreme svega ovoga.

And really commenting, you know,

I stvarno komentarišu, znate,

based on the perception we have of the celebrities.

zasnovano na našoj percepciji slavnih,

What Jack Nicholson might be up to in his celebrity life,

šta bi Džek Nikolson mogao raditi u svom slavnom životu.

and the fact that he tried to ... he had a bit of road rage

I činjenica da je pokušao, imao je malo tog drumskog besa,

and golf-clubbed a driver the other day.

i tukao je vozača golf palicom pre neki dan.

I mean, it's extremely difficult to find these look-alikes,

Mislim, veoma je teško naći ove imitatore,

so I'm constantly going up to people in the street

tako da stalno prilazim ljudima na ulici

and trying to ask people to come

i poušavam da pitam ljude da dođu

and be in one of my photographs or films.

i budu na jednoj od mojih fotografija ili u filmu.

And sometimes asking the real celebrity,

I ponekad pitam pravu zvezdu,

mistaking them for someone who just looks like the real person,

greškom ih mešajući sa nekim ko samo liči na pravu osobu,

which is highly embarrassing. (Laughter).

što je vrlo neprijatno. (smeh).

I've also been working with The Guardian on a topical basis --

Takođe radim sa "Gardijanom" na aktuelnim temama -

a page a week in their newspaper --

stranica nedeljno u njihovim novinama -

which has been very interesting, working topically.

što je vrlo zanimljivo, raditi na aktuelnostima.

So, Jamie Oliver and school dinners;

Dakle, Džejmi Oliver i školske menze;

Bush and Blair having difficulty getting alongside Muslim culture;

Buš i Bler imaju poteškoće da se slože sa muslimanskom kulturom;

the whole of the hunting issue,

čitav problem oko lova,

and the royal family refusing to stop hunting;

i kraljevske porodice koja odbija da prestane sa lovom.

and the tsunami issues; and obviously Harry;

I cunami teme. I očigledno Hari.

Blair's views on Gordon Brown, which I find very interesting;

Blerov pogled na Gordona Brauna, što smatram vrlo zanimljivim.

Condi and Bush.

Kondi i Buš.

This image I've decided to show having a reservation about it.

Ovu sliku, odlučila sam da prikažem, sa određenom rezervom.

I made it a year ago. And just how meanings change,

Napravila sam je pre godinu dana - i kako se značenje menja,

and there were a terrible thing that has happened,

i strašna stvar se dogodila.

but the fear is lurking around in our minds prior to that.

Ali strah vreba u našim umovima pre toga.

That's why this image was made one year ago,

Zato je ova slika napravljena pre godinu dana.

and what it means today.

I šta znači danas.

So, I'll leave you with these clips to have a look. (Music)

Ostaviću vas da pogledate ove snimke.

Chris Anderson: Thank you.

Kris Anderson: Hvala vam.