Alison Jackson: A surprising look at celebrity

翻译人员: Nicole LUO 校对人员: 乔 安娜

I'm a contemporary artist and I show in art galleries and museums.

我是一名当代艺术家。我的作品在画廊和博物馆展出。

I show a number of photographs and films,

我展出过大量的摄影和摄像，

but I also make television programs, books and some advertising,

同时我也制作电视节目，书籍和广告。

all with the same concept.

这些作品都有一个共同的理念，

And it's about our fixation with celebrity and celebrity culture,

就是关于我们对名人和名人文化的定位，

and the importance of the image:

以及公众形象的重要性。

celebrity is born of photography.

名人的出身和摄影不可分割。

I'm going to start with how I started with this concept seven years ago,

我将从七年前我是怎样想到这个理念开始讲起，

when Princess Diana died.

当时戴安娜王妃刚刚去世。

There was a sort of a standstill in Britain

她去世的当天或者是那一刻，

the moment of her death,

英国似乎陷入了停滞，

and people decided to mourn her death in a sort of mass way.

人们决定大规模地、群众性地哀悼她的逝去。

I was fascinated by this phenomenon,

我被这个现象所吸引。

so I wondered:

然后我想：

could one erase the image of Diana, actually quite crudely and physically?

可以有人哪怕只是粗糙地抹去戴安娜的形象么？

So, I got a gun and started to shoot at the image of Diana,

于是我拿了一把枪，开始对戴安娜的图像射击。

but I couldn't erase this from my memory

但是我不能把她的形象从记忆中抹去，

and certainly it was not being erased from the public psyche.

而且当然它也不会从公众的精神中消失。

Momentum was being built.

一种力量已经根植。

The press wrote about her death in rather, I felt, pornographic ways --

我感觉媒体在用一种有些黄色的方式报道她的去世，

like, "Which bit of artery left which bit of body?"

比如哪一部分的动脉离开了身体

and "How did she die in the back of the car?" --

或者她是怎样死于车的后座。

and I was intrigued by this sort of mass voyeurism,

我对公众的这种窥探心理很感兴趣，

so I made these rather gory images.

所以我拍摄了这些有些血淋淋的图片。

I then went on wondering whether I could actually replace her image,

我接着考虑我能不能真正地代替她的形象。

so I got a look-alike of Diana

所以我找了一个和戴安娜长得很像的人，

and posed her in the right positions and angles

让她摆成正确的位置和姿势，

and created something that was in, or existed in, the public imagination.

根据公众的想象创造了一些图片。

So people were wondering: was she going to marry Dodi?

人们想知道，戴安娜当时是不是想和男友Dodi结婚。

Was she in love with him?

她是否和Dodi相爱？

Was she pregnant? Did she want his baby?

她是不是怀孕了？她是否想要这个孩子？

Was she pregnant when she died?

她死时是否已经怀孕？

So I created this image of Diana, Dodi and their imaginary mixed-race child

所以我拍摄了关于戴安娜，Dodi和他们想象中的混血小孩的照片。

and this image came out, which caused a huge public outcry at the time.

这张照片公开后受到公众强烈抗议。

I then went on to make more comments on the media and press imagery,

然后我评论了媒体形象。

so I started making reference to media imagery --

下面我要开始谈谈媒体形象

made it grainy, shot through doorways and so on and so forth --

媒体用把事件细节化等等方法

to titillate the public or the viewer further

来刺激公众或者观看者，

in terms of trying to make the viewer more aware of their own voyeurism.

使他们更加意识到自己对名人隐私的窥探欲

So, this is an image of Diana looking at Camilla kissing her husband,

这张照片是戴安娜看着卡米拉亲吻自己的丈夫。

and this was a sequence of images.

这是一个系列的照片。

And this gets shown in art galleries like this, as a sequence.

它们在一个画廊中按顺序展出。

And similarly with the Di-Dodian baby imagery --

相似地，这是戴安娜和男友想象中的小孩的照片。

this is another art gallery installation.

这是另外一个系列。

I'm particularly interested in how you can't rely on your own perception.

我对公众对自己本身观念的怀疑特别感兴趣。

This is Jane Smith and Jo Bloggs, for instance,

比如说，这是Jane Smith和Jo Bloggs，

but you think it's Camilla and the Queen,

但是你认为这是卡米拉和皇后。

and I'm fascinated how what you think is real isn't necessarily real.

我对人们是怎样对一些不尽然真实的东西信以为真的非常着迷，

And the camera can lie,

镜头是可以撒谎的。

and it makes it very, very easy

在媒体的狂轰滥炸下，

with the mass bombardment of imagery to tell untruths.

它变得格外简单。

So, I continued to work on this project of how photography seduces us

我继续进行这个引诱人们的摄影计划，

and is more interesting to look at than the actual real subject matter.

它比现实中的事务更加有趣。

And at the same time, it removes us from the real subject matter,

与此同时，它把我们带离现实事务。

and this acts as a sort of titillating thing.

它们成为了一些刺激人们的东西。

So, the photograph becomes this teaser and incites desire and voyeurism;

摄影成为了一种戏弄人的东西，刺激着人们窥探的欲望。

what you can't have, you want more.

人对自己不能拥有的东西想要得更多。

In the photograph, the real subject doesn't exist

所以，在摄影中，真正的主体并不存在。

so it makes you want that person more.

这是你更加想要那个人。

And that is the way, I think, that celebrity magazines work now:

我想这样一来，名人杂志就可以获得成功。

the more pictures you see of these celebrities,

人们越多地看到名人的照片，

the more you feel you know them,

越想了解他们，

but you don't know them

但是你并不了解他们，

and you want to know them further.

所以你想更加深入地认识他们。

Of course, the Queen goes to her stud often to watch her horses ...

皇后经常去看她的马

watch her horses. (Laughter).

去看她的马（笑声）

And then I was sort of making imagery.

我在某种程度上制造了形象。

In England there's an expression: "you can't imagine the Queen on the loo."

在英国，有一种说法叫：“你不能想象皇后上厕所的样子。”

So I'm trying to penetrate that.

所以我尝试者把它表现出来。

Well, here is the image.

就是这张图片。

All this imagery was creating a lot of fuss

所有的这些图片都造成了很多大惊小怪。

and I was cited as a disgusting artist. The press were writing about this,

我被评论成一个令人厌恶的艺术家。

giving full pages about how terrible this was.

媒体大篇幅地报道这些图片有多么可怕，

Which I found very interesting that it was going full cycle:

这种媒体渲染的循环让我觉得非常有趣。

I was making comments about the press

我对媒体们作出评价，

and about how we know facts and information only by media --

我们对事实和信息的了解仅仅来源于媒体

because we don't know the real people;

因为我们并不了解真正的人。

very few of us know the real people --

我们中的很少人了解真正的人。

but it was going back into the press

但是回到那些媒体身上，

and they were publicizing, effectively, my filthy work.

他们正在有效地传播我的被批评为丑恶的作品。

So, these are broadsheets, tabloids, debates were being had all about this work,

各种报章、评论都是关于这些作品。

films were being banned before people had actually had the look at the work,

摄影在人们真正看到之前就被禁止。

politicians were getting involved --

政客们参与进来。

all sorts of things -- great headlines.

各种事情，大的标题。

Then suddenly, it started to get on front pages.

然后突然它开始登上头版。

I was being asked and paid to do front covers.

有人付钱让我做封面摄影。

Suddenly I was becoming sort of acceptable,

突然我就变成了一种可以被接受的人，

which I found also fascinating.

这也让我很感兴趣。

How one moment -- it was disgusting --

为什么在一段时间被厌恶的--

journalists would lie to me to get a story or a photograph of me,

而现在记者们可以向我撒谎以取得我的故事和照片，

saying my work was wonderful,

说我的作品非常好，

and the next minute there were terrible headlines about me.

然而下一分钟又会有关于我的可怕的标题。

But then this changed suddenly.

但是这些瞬间就改变了。

I then started to work for magazines and newspapers.

然后我开始为报刊杂志工作。

This was, for example, an image that went into Tatler.

例如这张为《闲谈者》提供的图片。

This was another newspaper image.

这是另外一张报纸图片。

It was an April fool actually, and to this day some people think it's real.

它其实出现在愚人节那天，但一些人以为它是真的

I was sitting next to someone at dinner the other day,

有一天我和一些人一起吃饭，

and they were saying there's this great image of the Queen

他们正在谈论一张关于皇后的不错的图片

sitting outside William Hill.

当中皇后正在走向William Hill。

They thought it was real.

他们以为它是真的。

I was exploring, at the time, the hyperbole of icons --

我当时就开始探索关于偶像的夸张法，

and Diana and Marilyn -- and the importance of celebrity in our lives.

戴安娜和玛丽莲梦露，名人对人们生活的重要性。

How they wheedle their way into the collective psyche

他们是怎样把自己融入到公众的心中

without us even knowing,

让我们毫无察觉

and how that should happen.

这是怎样发生的

I explored with actually dressing up as the celebrities myself.

我实际上把自己打扮成了名人。

There's me as Diana --

这是打扮成戴安娜的我

I look like the mass murderer Myra Hindley, I think, in this one. (Laughter).

看起来像连环杀人犯Myra Henley （笑声）

And me as the Queen.

这是我装扮成的皇后。

I then continued on to make a whole body of work about Marilyn --

然后我又制作了一系列玛丽莲梦露

the biggest icon of all --

最伟大的偶像。

and trying to titillate by shooting through doorways and shutters and so on and so forth,

我尝试了各种摄影技巧比如从门廊中往外摄来刺激大众

and only showing certain angles to create a reality that, obviously,

只展示某些特定的角度，来创造出现实感，

is completely constructed.

这明显地经过精心制作

This is the look-alike, so the crafting elements of this is completely enormous.

这是照片中玛丽莲的扮演者，其中手工的成分是巨大的

She looks nothing like Marilyn,

她一点也不像玛丽莲梦露

but by the time we've made her up and put wigs and makeup on,

但当我们给她戴上假发和化妆后，

she looks exactly like Marilyn,

她看上去就和玛丽莲梦露一模一样，

to the extent that her husband couldn't recognize her --

甚至连他的丈夫都认不出来，

or recognize this look-alike -- in these photographs,

认不出照片中这个扮演者

which I find quite interesting.

这十分有趣。

So, all this work is getting shown in art galleries.

这一系列照片都在画廊中展览。

Then I made a book.

我制作了一本书。

I was also making a TV series for the BBC at the time.

我曾经为BBC制作了一系列电视节目。

Stills from the TV series went into this book.

电视节目中的静态图片也收入了书中。

But there was a real legal problem because it looks real,

但是这里有一个法律问题，因为照片看上去像真的

but how do you get over that?

但是怎么克服这个问题呢？

Because obviously it's making a comment about our culture right now:

它明显地在评论我们现在的文化，

that we can't tell what's real.

也就是我们无法辨别真假。

How do we know when we're looking at something whether it's real or not?

当我们看一件东西的时候，怎样才能分辨真假呢？

So, from my point of view, it's important to publish it,

从我的看法，能发表这些照片是很重要的

but at the same time it does cause a confusion --

但同时它们制造疑惑

intentional on my behalf,

代表了我的意愿

but problematic for any outlet that I'm working with.

但是对我所合作的媒介来说它们是有问题的。

So a big disclaimer is put on everything that I do,

于是我为所有作品都加上了免责声明，

and I made narratives about all the European or Brit celebrities

然后我为这些欧洲或者英国名人编写一个小故事

and comments about our public figures.

一次评价这些公众人物。

You know, what does Tony Blair get up to in private with his fashion guru?

你知道，托尼·布莱尔私底下和他的时尚的老师做了什么？

And also dealing with the perceptions that are put about

还有公众的观念关于

Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, the links that were put about pre-Iraq war.

本拉登、萨达姆，伊拉克战争前的环节。

And what is going to happen to the monarchy?

君主制政体会走向何方

Because obviously the British public,

因为明显地，英国公众

I think, would prefer William to Charles on the throne.

更加支持威廉王子而不是查尔斯。

And it's that wish, or that desire, that I suppose I'm dealing with in my work.

我在工作中遭遇的就是这些公众的愿望，或者是欲望。

I'm not really interested in the celebrity themselves.

我并不是对名人本人感兴趣。

I'm interested in the perception of the celebrity.

我感兴趣的是人们对于名人的看法。

And with some look-alikes, they are so good

用一些很演员来扮演名人，他们表现得很好。

you don't know whether they're real or not.

人们分辨不出他们是真是假

I did an advertising campaign for Schweppes, which is Coca-Cola,

我曾经做过可口可乐公司Schweppes饮料的广告，

and so that was very interesting in terms of the legalities.

它在法律方面非常有趣。

It's highly commercial.

这是一个高度商业的广告。

But it was a difficulty for me -- because this is my artwork;

但对我来说难度很高，因为它同时也是我的艺术作品。

should I do advertising? -- at the time.

我当时想，我应不应该制作广告呢？

So I made sure the work was not compromised in any way

所以我下决心不让艺术向商业妥协，

and that the integrity of the work remained the same.

这件作品的整体统一性依然保持一致。

But the meanings changed in the sense that with the logo on,

但意义有所改变，因为有了商标在图片上，

you're closing all the lines of interpretation down to selling a product

人们就会想到这是在为推广一种产品

and that's all you're doing.

推广产品就是这幅图的全部。

When you take the logo off, you're opening up the interpretations

当你去掉商标，各种解释的可能都产生了

and making the work inconclusive,

使这幅作品不确定。

opposed to conclusive when you are advertising.

相反当做广告时，这幅作品的意义是确定的。

This image is quite interesting, actually,

这幅图其实很有趣

because I think we made it three years ago.

这是三年前拍摄的

And it's Camilla in her wedding dress, which, again,

卡米拉在她的婚纱中

nearly got re-used now, recently prior to her wedding.

最近在卡米拉和查尔斯的婚礼前期，它再次被使用

Tony Blair and Cherie. And again, the legalities -- we had to be very careful.

这是布莱尔和切丽。同样我们需要小心法律问题。

It's obviously a very big commercial company, and so this little,

这明显是一个大的商业性公司，所以我们做了这样一个

"Shh -- it's not really them,"

“嘘，你知道这不是真的他们”

was put on the side of the imagery.

放在图片的旁边

And Margaret Thatcher visiting Jeffery Archer in jail.

这是撒切尔夫人探望在狱中的杰弗里·阿彻

I then was asked by Selfridges to do a series of windows for them,

塞尔福里奇百货公司让我设计一系列橱窗

so I built a sauna bath in one of their windows and created little scenes --

我建造了一个桑拿浴，创造了一些小场景

live scenes with look-alikes inside the windows,

让外形相似的演员来表演名人

and the windows were all steamed up.

橱窗全部充满蒸气浴

So, it's Tony Blair reading and practicing his speech;

这是布莱尔在阅读和练习他的演讲

I've got them doing yoga inside there with Carole Caplin;

我让他们和Carole Caplin一起做瑜伽

Sven making out with Ulrika Jonsson, who he was having an affair with at that time.

Sven和在当时与他有绯闻的Ulrika Jonsson在一起

This was a huge success for them

这让百货公司取得了巨大成功

because the imagery got shown in the press the day after

因为第二天所有媒体都刊登了照片

in every single newspaper, broadsheets and tabloids.

几乎每一份大小报刊

It was a bit of a road stopper, which was problematic

这造成了堵塞道路的问题

because the police kept on trying to clear away the crowds,

因为警察尝试着疏散围观人群

but huge fun -- it was great for me to do a performance.

但是非常好玩，表演对我来说非常美好

Also, people were taking photographs of this,

另外，人们不停地照相

so it was being texted around the world extremely quickly, all this imagery.

使图片很快地传播到全球

And the press were interviewing, and I was signing my book. (Laughter).

媒体们采访着，我给我的书签名 （笑声）

Further imagery. I'm making a new book now with Taschen

我现在正在制作我的新书

that I'm working on really for a sort of global market --

针对全球化的市场

my previous book was only for the U.K. market --

我的前一本书只是针对英国市场

that I suppose it could be called humorous.

但我设想这可以被称作幽默

I suppose I come from a sort of non-humorous background

我是来自一种不幽默的背景，

with serious intent,

你知道，有着严肃的意向。

and then suddenly my work is funny.

但后来突然我的作品都变得好笑了。

And I think it doesn't really matter that my work is considered humorous, in a way;

我认为我的作品被理解为幽默没有关系

I think it's a way in for me to deal with the importance of imagery

这也是我的一种处理媒体形象重要性的方式

and how we read all our information through imagery.

我们如何通过图片阅读信息。

It's an extremely fast way of getting information.

这是得到信息的最快方式。

It's extremely difficult if it's constructed correctly,

要正确构建这样的图片会非常困难

and there are techniques of constructing iconic imagery.

构建标志性的照片需要技巧。

This image, for example, is sort of spot-on

比如这幅图，恰到好处

because it exactly sums up what Elton may be doing in private,

因为它正好概括了埃尔顿私底下可能做的事。

and also what might be happening with Saddam Hussein, and George Bush

这是可能发生在萨达姆身上的

reading the Koran upside-down.

这是小布什上下颠倒地在读可兰经

For example, George Bush target practice --

这是小布什的打靶练习

shooting at Bin Laden and Michael Moore.

他在射击本拉登和迈克·摩尔。

And then you change the photograph he's shooting at,

然后你换掉他的射击对象，

and it suddenly becomes rather grim and maybe less accessible. (Laughter).

它变得有些冷酷，也许不那么让人亲近 （笑声）

Tony Blair being used as a mounting block,

布莱尔被用作了阶梯。

and Rumsfeld and Bush laughing with some Abu Ghraib photos behind,

拉姆斯菲尔德和布什在笑，后面是Abu Ghraib的照片

and the seriousness, or the intellect, of Bush.

这是布什的严肃和机智。

And also, commenting on the behind the scenes --

这是对现实事件的评价

well, as we know now -- what goes on in prisons.

就像我们现在所知道的监狱中发生的事件。

And in fact, George Bush and Tony Blair

实际上小布什和布莱尔

are having great fun during all of this.

在此期间一直在休闲享受。

And really commenting, you know,

这些评论

based on the perception we have of the celebrities.

根据我们对名人的看法

What Jack Nicholson might be up to in his celebrity life,

杰克·尼克尔森在他的名人生活中在干什么

and the fact that he tried to ... he had a bit of road rage

他其实有一点交通暴躁情绪，

and golf-clubbed a driver the other day.

某一天他用高尔夫球杆击打一个司机

I mean, it's extremely difficult to find these look-alikes,

其实要找到这些特型演员很不容易，

so I'm constantly going up to people in the street

所以我长期性地在街上接触不同的人，

and trying to ask people to come

试着让人们来

and be in one of my photographs or films.

参与到我的摄影中。

And sometimes asking the real celebrity,

有时我邀请真正的名人，

mistaking them for someone who just looks like the real person,

把他们误认为只是长得像的，

which is highly embarrassing. (Laughter).

这令人非常尴尬。 （笑声）

I've also been working with The Guardian on a topical basis --

我和卫报以话题的形式合作

a page a week in their newspaper --

在报纸上每周一页

which has been very interesting, working topically.

以话题为工作也非常有趣。

So, Jamie Oliver and school dinners;

杰米·奥利弗和学校午餐；

Bush and Blair having difficulty getting alongside Muslim culture;

布什和布莱尔对融入穆斯林文化感到困难；

the whole of the hunting issue,

狩猎事件

and the royal family refusing to stop hunting;

皇家家庭拒绝停滞狩猎。

and the tsunami issues; and obviously Harry;

海啸事件。这是哈里

Blair's views on Gordon Brown, which I find very interesting;

布莱尔看戈登·布朗，我觉得很有意思。

Condi and Bush.

赖斯和布什。

This image I've decided to show having a reservation about it.

我专门讲一下这幅图

I made it a year ago. And just how meanings change,

我一年前拍摄的它，意义已有所改变

and there were a terrible thing that has happened,

一件可怕的事情发生了。

but the fear is lurking around in our minds prior to that.

在此之前恐惧就潜伏在我们头脑里。

That's why this image was made one year ago,

这就是为什么它于一年前拍摄

and what it means today.

还有它现在代表什么。

So, I'll leave you with these clips to have a look. (Music)

最后请大家看这些片段。

Chris Anderson: Thank you.

谢谢。