Alison Jackson: A surprising look at celebrity

譯者: Afra Tucker 審譯者: Jeannie Cheng

I'm a contemporary artist and I show in art galleries and museums.

我是一個當代藝術家，我的作品在畫廊和博物館展出。

I show a number of photographs and films,

我秀大量照片和電影，

but I also make television programs, books and some advertising,

同時我也製作電視節目，出書，拍廣告，

all with the same concept.

全部都表達了一個相同的概念。

And it's about our fixation with celebrity and celebrity culture,

就是我們對名人和名人文化的迷戀

and the importance of the image:

以及圖像的重要性。

celebrity is born of photography.

名人是從攝影中產生的。

I'm going to start with how I started with this concept seven years ago,

所以現在我從自己如何在七年前產生這一概念開始講起，

when Princess Diana died.

當時戴安娜王妃去世了。

There was a sort of a standstill in Britain

那一天，在英國，可以說時間停滯了，

the moment of her death,

或者在她去世那一刻，

and people decided to mourn her death in a sort of mass way.

人民決定通過一種大眾的方式來哀悼她的離去。

I was fascinated by this phenomenon,

我迷上了這一現象。

so I wondered:

所以我想知道：

could one erase the image of Diana, actually quite crudely and physically?

一個人能粗暴地和完全地抹去戴安娜的形象嗎？

So, I got a gun and started to shoot at the image of Diana,

於是我拿了一把槍，開始射擊戴安娜的肖像。

but I couldn't erase this from my memory

但我無法把這形像從我的記憶中抹去，

and certainly it was not being erased from the public psyche.

當然，它也沒有從公眾心理中被抹去

Momentum was being built.

一種動力正在興起

The press wrote about her death in rather, I felt, pornographic ways --

我覺得新聞界以色情的方式來描述她的死，

like, "Which bit of artery left which bit of body?"

比如描述哪根動脈離開了她身體的哪個部分，

and "How did she die in the back of the car?" --

以及她如何在車的尾部死去。

and I was intrigued by this sort of mass voyeurism,

我對這種公眾的窺私欲產生了興趣。

so I made these rather gory images.

所以我製造了一些有點血淋淋的圖片。

I then went on wondering whether I could actually replace her image,

然後我接著自問可否以此取代她的形象

so I got a look-alike of Diana

所以我找了一個酷似戴安娜的人

and posed her in the right positions and angles

給她擺好姿勢和角度

and created something that was in, or existed in, the public imagination.

創作了一個存在於公眾的想像力中的故事

So people were wondering: was she going to marry Dodi?

所以人們都在想，她當時要嫁給多迪嗎?

Was she in love with him?

她愛上了他嗎？

Was she pregnant? Did she want his baby?

她懷孕了嗎？她想要他的孩子嗎？

Was she pregnant when she died?

她死時懷孕了嗎？

So I created this image of Diana, Dodi and their imaginary mixed-race child

所以我創造了戴安娜、多迪和想像中他倆的混血兒的圖片。

and this image came out, which caused a huge public outcry at the time.

圖片一出，在當時引起巨大的公憤

I then went on to make more comments on the media and press imagery,

進而我對媒體和出版物中戴安娜的形象作出更多評論。

so I started making reference to media imagery --

然後我開始參考借鑒媒體中的圖像-

made it grainy, shot through doorways and so on and so forth --

對圖片作顆粒化處理，從門口向內拍攝，諸如此類，

to titillate the public or the viewer further

通過這種方式進一步激起公眾或觀眾的興趣,

in terms of trying to make the viewer more aware of their own voyeurism.

試圖讓觀眾更加意識到自己的偷窺欲。

So, this is an image of Diana looking at Camilla kissing her husband,

這是黛安娜看著卡米拉親吻她丈夫的圖片。

and this was a sequence of images.

這是一組圖片。

And this gets shown in art galleries like this, as a sequence.

在畫廊像這樣地作為一個系列展出，

And similarly with the Di-Dodian baby imagery --

和與此相類的有戴安娜和多迪的嬰兒的圖片。

this is another art gallery installation.

這是另一個畫廊裝置。

I'm particularly interested in how you can't rely on your own perception.

我特別感興趣的是你如何無法依賴自己的感覺。

This is Jane Smith and Jo Bloggs, for instance,

例如這是簡史密斯和喬佈洛格斯 ，

but you think it's Camilla and the Queen,

但你會以為這是卡米拉和女王。

and I'm fascinated how what you think is real isn't necessarily real.

我著迷於為什麼你以為是真實的東西卻並不一定是真實的，

And the camera can lie,

以及照相機如何撒謊。

and it makes it very, very easy

令這一切變得非常非常容易

with the mass bombardment of imagery to tell untruths.

以大量圖片轟炸來説謊。

So, I continued to work on this project of how photography seduces us

所以我繼續致力於探索攝影如何迷惑我們這一課題，

and is more interesting to look at than the actual real subject matter.

以及爲什麽看這類圖片比真正的主題更有趣。

And at the same time, it removes us from the real subject matter,

與此同時，攝影將我們從真正的主題旁拉開。

and this acts as a sort of titillating thing.

這是一件使人興奮的事。

So, the photograph becomes this teaser and incites desire and voyeurism;

照片成為這樣一個挑逗者在煽動願望和窥私欲。

what you can't have, you want more.

越是你沒有的東西，你越是想要。

In the photograph, the real subject doesn't exist

因此，在照片中，真正的主題並不存在。

so it makes you want that person more.

這讓你更想要這一個人。

And that is the way, I think, that celebrity magazines work now:

我認為這就是現在名人雜誌的經營手段。

the more pictures you see of these celebrities,

你看到的這些名人的圖片越多，

the more you feel you know them,

你越會覺得自己認識他們，

but you don't know them

但你不認識他們，

and you want to know them further.

結果你想進一步認識他們。

Of course, the Queen goes to her stud often to watch her horses ...

當然女王經常去馬房看她的馬...

watch her horses. (Laughter).

看她的馬。（眾笑）。

And then I was sort of making imagery.

然後，從某種意義上來說，我創造了一種形像。

In England there's an expression: "you can't imagine the Queen on the loo."

在英格蘭有一個説法：“你無法想像女王上廁所的樣子。”

So I'm trying to penetrate that.

於是，我在試著打破它。

Well, here is the image.

嗯，這就是那張圖片。

All this imagery was creating a lot of fuss

這一形像引起了無數的大驚小怪。

and I was cited as a disgusting artist. The press were writing about this,

我被描述成一個令人討厭的藝術家。新聞界當時正在寫這個，

giving full pages about how terrible this was.

你知道，他們用大量篇幅充分描述我的風格有多可怖，

Which I found very interesting that it was going full cycle:

我認爲這很有意思，這是一個完整的循環中的一個環節。

I was making comments about the press

我對新聞界做過一些評論,

and about how we know facts and information only by media --

以及有關我們如何只能通過媒體了解事實和獲得信息

because we don't know the real people;

因為我們不認識當事人。

very few of us know the real people --

很少人認識當事人。

but it was going back into the press

但回頭看新聞界

and they were publicizing, effectively, my filthy work.

他們有效地在宣傳我的骯髒的作品

So, these are broadsheets, tabloids, debates were being had all about this work,

因此，這些報紙、小報、辯論都被利用了，它們全都是有關這種作品的。

films were being banned before people had actually had the look at the work,

實際上，在人們實際看到這類作品之前，新聞膠片都被禁止公開。

politicians were getting involved --

政治家介入。

all sorts of things -- great headlines.

各種各樣的事情，巨大的新聞頭條。

Then suddenly, it started to get on front pages.

然後突然它開始出現在頭版。

I was being asked and paid to do front covers.

人們花錢請我去做封面。

Suddenly I was becoming sort of acceptable,

我突然變得有點讓人能夠接受了，

which I found also fascinating.

我發現這件事也很迷人。

How one moment -- it was disgusting --

現實一度曾是多麼令人作嘔啊-

journalists would lie to me to get a story or a photograph of me,

記者爲了從我這裏搞到一個故事或一張照片會對我撒謊，

saying my work was wonderful,

說我的作品很精彩，

and the next minute there were terrible headlines about me.

然后下一分鐘就發有關我的可怕的頭條。

But then this changed suddenly.

但是，突然這一情況改變了。

I then started to work for magazines and newspapers.

我開始為雜誌和報紙工作。

This was, for example, an image that went into Tatler.

舉個例子，這是一張入選塔特勒的圖片。

This was another newspaper image.

這是另一家報紙的圖片。

It was an April fool actually, and to this day some people think it's real.

這是一個愚人節笑話，而時至今日，有些人還認為這是真的。

I was sitting next to someone at dinner the other day,

有一天晚餐時我坐在一個人旁邊，

and they were saying there's this great image of the Queen

他們說有一張很棒的女王的圖片

sitting outside William Hill.

她坐在“威廉•希爾”門口。

They thought it was real.

他們認為這是真的。

I was exploring, at the time, the hyperbole of icons --

所以，在那段時間我在探討形象的誇張，

and Diana and Marilyn -- and the importance of celebrity in our lives.

戴安娜和瑪麗蓮•夢露，以及名人在我們的生活中的重要性。

How they wheedle their way into the collective psyche

他們如何迎合了大眾心理

without us even knowing,

甚至在我們不知不覺中，

and how that should happen.

以及這一情況是怎樣發生的。

I explored with actually dressing up as the celebrities myself.

我試著把自己打扮成名人。

There's me as Diana --

這是打扮成戴安娜的我。

I look like the mass murderer Myra Hindley, I think, in this one. (Laughter).

我覺得這張我看起來像連環殺手邁拉•亨利。（眾笑）。

And me as the Queen.

扮成女王的我。

I then continued on to make a whole body of work about Marilyn --

然後我繼續創作整個一系列關於夢露的作品

the biggest icon of all --

她是第一偶像。

and trying to titillate by shooting through doorways and shutters and so on and so forth,

我試圖通過從門口和百葉窗向內拍照之類的手段來引起人們的興趣。

and only showing certain angles to create a reality that, obviously,

只展示某些特定的角度以創造一個

is completely constructed.

完全虛構的現實。

This is the look-alike, so the crafting elements of this is completely enormous.

這是那個酷似夢露的人，這裡技巧的成分絕對是極大的。

She looks nothing like Marilyn,

她看上去一點也不像夢露。

but by the time we've made her up and put wigs and makeup on,

但是，當我們給她戴上假髮化好妝以後，

she looks exactly like Marilyn,

她看起來簡直和夢露一模一樣

to the extent that her husband couldn't recognize her --

以至於連她的丈夫都不認得她

or recognize this look-alike -- in these photographs,

或者從這些照片裡把她認出來了，

which I find quite interesting.

這讓我覺得非常有趣。

So, all this work is getting shown in art galleries.

這些作品正在各個畫廊中展出。

Then I made a book.

然後我出了一本書。

I was also making a TV series for the BBC at the time.

當時我還為BBC製作了一部電視連續劇。

Stills from the TV series went into this book.

電視連續劇的劇照放在這本書裡。

But there was a real legal problem because it looks real,

但是，這裡有一個真正的法律問題，因為它看起來是真實的，

but how do you get over that?

但你如何解決這個問題呢？

Because obviously it's making a comment about our culture right now:

因為它顯然對我們時下的文化作出了一個評論，

that we can't tell what's real.

那就是：我們無法辨別什麼是真實的。

How do we know when we're looking at something whether it's real or not?

當我們看一個東西時，我們怎麼知道它是不是真的？

So, from my point of view, it's important to publish it,

所以我的觀點是，將它出版是很重要的，

but at the same time it does cause a confusion --

但同時這也造成混亂-

intentional on my behalf,

在我看來這是有意的-

but problematic for any outlet that I'm working with.

但對於和我合作的任何發行部門，它都是棘手的。

So a big disclaimer is put on everything that I do,

所以我的所有作品裡都被放了一個大大的聲明，

and I made narratives about all the European or Brit celebrities

我對所有歐洲或英國名人做了一個描述

and comments about our public figures.

並對我們的這些公眾人物作出評論。

You know, what does Tony Blair get up to in private with his fashion guru?

譬如，英國首相布萊爾跟他私人造型師單獨在一起的時候幹什麽？

And also dealing with the perceptions that are put about

我還詮釋過人們對本拉丹和薩達姆侯賽因的看法，

Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, the links that were put about pre-Iraq war.

他們在伊拉克戰爭之前的關連。

And what is going to happen to the monarchy?

還有，關於王室將會發生什麽事？

Because obviously the British public,

因為很明顯，英國公眾，

I think, would prefer William to Charles on the throne.

我認為，寧願威廉多於查爾斯繼承王位。

And it's that wish, or that desire, that I suppose I'm dealing with in my work.

我想在作品裏詮釋這個希望，或者說願望。

I'm not really interested in the celebrity themselves.

我並不真正關心名人自身。

I'm interested in the perception of the celebrity.

我感興趣的是人們對名人的看法。

And with some look-alikes, they are so good

至於那些酷似這些名人的人，他們是那麼出色。

you don't know whether they're real or not.

你不知道他們是否真正的名人。

I did an advertising campaign for Schweppes, which is Coca-Cola,

我為史威士，就是可口可樂這類產品，做了個大廣告,

and so that was very interesting in terms of the legalities.

從法律角度來看，这非常有趣。

It's highly commercial.

它高度商業化。

But it was a difficulty for me -- because this is my artwork;

但這又是我的藝術作品，所以對我來說這是一個難題。

should I do advertising? -- at the time.

我那時應不應該做廣告？

So I made sure the work was not compromised in any way

於是，我當時確保我的作品不會以任何方式妥協，

and that the integrity of the work remained the same.

以及作品的完整性始終如一。

But the meanings changed in the sense that with the logo on,

但是，從帶有商標這個意義上講，意義還是改變了，

you're closing all the lines of interpretation down to selling a product

你關閉一切詮釋的途徑，只為銷售一樣產品-

and that's all you're doing.

這就是你要做的一切。

When you take the logo off, you're opening up the interpretations

當你去掉商標，你才能開放詮釋

and making the work inconclusive,

讓作品沒有定論。

opposed to conclusive when you are advertising.

這和你做廣告時的明確態度相反。

This image is quite interesting, actually,

說真的，這張圖片非常有趣，

because I think we made it three years ago.

因為我記得這是我們3年前做的，

And it's Camilla in her wedding dress, which, again,

它表現卡米拉穿著結婚禮服，

nearly got re-used now, recently prior to her wedding.

最近在她的婚禮之前它差點又被用了一次。

Tony Blair and Cherie. And again, the legalities -- we had to be very careful.

這是英國首相布萊爾和切麗。這次，我們同樣必須非常小心地處理它的合法性。

It's obviously a very big commercial company, and so this little,

這顯然是一個非常大的商業公司，所以我們大事化小

"Shh -- it's not really them,"

把“噓...你知道這不是真的他們，”

was put on the side of the imagery.

放在圖片旁邊。

And Margaret Thatcher visiting Jeffery Archer in jail.

這是撒切爾夫人訪問獄中的杰弗裡•阿徹。

I then was asked by Selfridges to do a series of windows for them,

然後，塞爾福裏奇百貨公司請我幫他們做一個櫥窗系列。

so I built a sauna bath in one of their windows and created little scenes --

於是我在其中一個櫥窗搞了一個桑拿浴，並設置了一些小場景-

live scenes with look-alikes inside the windows,

在櫥窗裡，酷似名人的人現場表演，

and the windows were all steamed up.

櫥窗里全都布滿蒸汽。

So, it's Tony Blair reading and practicing his speech;

於是，這裡有英國首相布萊爾在練習和朗讀他的演講。

I've got them doing yoga inside there with Carole Caplin;

我讓他們與卡羅爾•卡普林在櫥窗裡一起做瑜伽，

Sven making out with Ulrika Jonsson, who he was having an affair with at that time.

斯文在和烏爾裡卡•約翰遜親熱，就是當時與他關係曖昧的人。

This was a huge success for them

這對於他們是一個巨大的成功

because the imagery got shown in the press the day after

因為第二天這些形像出現在新聞媒體上

in every single newspaper, broadsheets and tabloids.

出現在每一張報紙，巨幅印刷品和小報上。

It was a bit of a road stopper, which was problematic

這是一個吸引路人注意的現象，所以有點麻煩

because the police kept on trying to clear away the crowds,

因為警方一直試圖驅散圍觀的人群。

but huge fun -- it was great for me to do a performance.

巨大的樂趣—搞一場秀這種事對我來説太有意思了。

Also, people were taking photographs of this,

此外，人們為這些形象拍照，

so it was being texted around the world extremely quickly, all this imagery.

結果這些形像飛速傳遍世界。

And the press were interviewing, and I was signing my book. (Laughter).

媒體採訪了我，我還為自己的書搞了簽售活動。（眾笑）。

Further imagery. I'm making a new book now with Taschen

至於另外一些圖片，我現在在與塔森合作出版一本新書，

that I'm working on really for a sort of global market --

這書是針對全球市場的。

my previous book was only for the U.K. market --

我的前一本書是僅僅針對英國市場的。

that I suppose it could be called humorous.

我猜這稱得上幽默。

I suppose I come from a sort of non-humorous background

我猜我來自一種不幽默的背景，

with serious intent,

你知道，有嚴肅的目的。

and then suddenly my work is funny.

可是出乎意料，我的作品很好笑。

And I think it doesn't really matter that my work is considered humorous, in a way;

從某個角度來說，我的作品被認為是幽默的，我認為這沒什麼大問題，-

I think it's a way in for me to deal with the importance of imagery

我認為對於我這是處理圖像重要性的一種方式，

and how we read all our information through imagery.

以及我們如何通過圖像會了解所有的信息。

It's an extremely fast way of getting information.

這是獲取信息的極快的方式。

It's extremely difficult if it's constructed correctly,

如果它是正確建造的，那就極其困難，

and there are techniques of constructing iconic imagery.

我們有構建偶像圖像的技巧。

This image, for example, is sort of spot-on

比方說，這個圖像就是個準確的例子，

because it exactly sums up what Elton may be doing in private,

因為它準確地概括了艾爾頓私下可能做的事

and also what might be happening with Saddam Hussein, and George Bush

這種事也可能發生在薩達姆•侯賽因和喬治•布什身上

reading the Koran upside-down.

閱讀拿倒了的可蘭經。

For example, George Bush target practice --

例如，這是布什總統在練習射擊，

shooting at Bin Laden and Michael Moore.

射擊本拉丹和邁克爾•摩爾。

And then you change the photograph he's shooting at,

然後你把他射擊的那張相片換掉，

and it suddenly becomes rather grim and maybe less accessible. (Laughter).

它突然變得相當嚴峻，也許不太容易理解。（眾笑）。

Tony Blair being used as a mounting block,

英國首相布萊爾被當成上馬的踏腳板。

and Rumsfeld and Bush laughing with some Abu Ghraib photos behind,

拉姆斯菲爾德和布什在阿布格萊布監獄的照片前笑,

and the seriousness, or the intellect, of Bush.

布什的嚴肅，或智力。

And also, commenting on the behind the scenes --

還有對這場景背后的內容的評論，

well, as we know now -- what goes on in prisons.

嗯，正如我們現在所知，什麼在監獄裡。

And in fact, George Bush and Tony Blair

而且事實上布什和布萊爾

are having great fun during all of this.

樂在其中

And really commenting, you know,

評論真的，你知道，

based on the perception we have of the celebrities.

建立在我們對名人的看法之上，

What Jack Nicholson might be up to in his celebrity life,

傑克•尼科爾森在他的名人生活可能做什麼。

and the fact that he tried to ... he had a bit of road rage

而實際上，他幹過類似當街發飆這種事，

and golf-clubbed a driver the other day.

不久前有一天，他差點用高爾夫球棍打了一位司機。

I mean, it's extremely difficult to find these look-alikes,

我的意思是，極難找到這些酷似名人的人，

so I'm constantly going up to people in the street

所以我不斷攔住路人

and trying to ask people to come

試圖請他們來

and be in one of my photographs or films.

在我的照片或電影擔任角色。

And sometimes asking the real celebrity,

有時問的就是真正的名人，

mistaking them for someone who just looks like the real person,

把他們錯認成長得像名人的人，

which is highly embarrassing. (Laughter).

這讓我非常尷尬。（眾笑）。

I've also been working with The Guardian on a topical basis --

我與《衛報》也一直在合作一個專題-

a page a week in their newspaper --

他們的報紙上每星期有一頁-

which has been very interesting, working topically.

這是非常有趣的，按照專題做工作。

So, Jamie Oliver and school dinners;

這裡有一些專題: 吉米•奧利弗和學校晚餐;

Bush and Blair having difficulty getting alongside Muslim culture;

布什和布萊爾在與穆斯林文化合作中遇到困難;

the whole of the hunting issue,

整個狩獵的問題，

and the royal family refusing to stop hunting;

王室拒絕停止狩獵。

and the tsunami issues; and obviously Harry;

以及海嘯問題。顯然，哈里。

Blair's views on Gordon Brown, which I find very interesting;

布萊爾對現首相戈登•布朗的看法，我覺得非常有趣。

Condi and Bush.

賴斯和布什。

This image I've decided to show having a reservation about it.

這個形象我決定要展示出來，雖然我對此還有保留。

I made it a year ago. And just how meanings change,

我在一年前拍的-讓我們看含義是如何改變的，

and there were a terrible thing that has happened,

剛剛發生過的一件可怕的事。

but the fear is lurking around in our minds prior to that.

但在此之前恐懼已經潛在於我們的意識中。

That's why this image was made one year ago,

這就是一年前拍攝這個形象的原因。

and what it means today.

以及它在今天意味著什麼。

So, I'll leave you with these clips to have a look. (Music)

好，剩下的時間請你們看這些照片。

Chris Anderson: Thank you.

克里斯•安德森：謝謝你。