How to have better political conversations | Robb Willer

Translator: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Joanna Pietrulewicz

Prevodilac: Ivana Krivokuća Lektor: Tijana Mihajlović

So you probably have the sense, as most people do,

Verovatno ste stekli utisak, kao i većina ljudi,

that polarization is getting worse in our country,

da polarizacija postaje sve gora u našoj zemlji,

that the divide between the left and the right

da je podela na levicu i desnicu

is as bad as it's been in really any of our lifetimes.

lošija nego što je bila u bilo koje vreme.

But you might also reasonably wonder if research backs up your intuition.

Možda se, takođe, sa razlogom pitate

da li istraživanje podržava vašu intuiciju.

And in a nutshell, the answer is sadly yes.

Ukratko, odgovor je, nažalost, da.

In study after study, we find

U istraživanju za istraživanjem,

that liberals and conservatives have grown further apart.

otkrivamo da su se liberali i konzervativci znatno međusobno udaljili.

They increasingly wall themselves off in these ideological silos,

Sve se više ograđuju u skučene ideološke prostore,

consuming different news, talking only to like-minded others

konzumirajući različite vesti, razgovarajući samo sa istomišljenicima,

and more and more choosing to live in different parts of the country.

a sve više njih bira da živi u različitim delovima zemlje.

And I think that most alarming of all of it

Smatram da od svega toga najviše uznemirava kada se vidi

is seeing this rising animosity on both sides.

ova rastuća netrpeljivost na obe strane.

Liberals and conservatives,

Liberali i konzervativci,

Democrats and Republicans,

demokrate i republikanci

more and more they just don't like one another.

sve više i više ne vole jedni druge.

You see it in many different ways.

Vidite to na više različitih načina.

Ne žele da budu prijatelji jedni drugima. Ne žele da se zabavljaju jedni sa drugima.

They don't want to befriend one another. They don't want to date one another.

If they do, if they find out, they find each other less attractive,

Ako se to desi, ako saznaju, vide jedno drugo kao manje privlačne

and they more and more don't want their children to marry someone

i sve više ne žele da njihova deca stupe u brak sa nekim

who supports the other party,

ko podržava drugu stranku,

a particularly shocking statistic.

što je naročito šokantan podatak.

You know, in my lab, the students that I work with,

Znate, u mojoj laboratoriji, sa studentima sa kojima radim,

we're talking about some sort of social pattern --

kad govorimo o nekoj vrsti društvenog obrasca -

I'm a movie buff, and so I'm often like,

ja sam zaluđenik za filmove, pa se često pitam:

what kind of movie are we in here with this pattern?

„U kakvom smo filmu sa ovim obrascem?“

So what kind of movie are we in with political polarization?

Dakle, u kakvom smo filmu sa političkom polarizacijom?

Well, it could be a disaster movie.

Pa, mogao bi biti film o katastrofi.

It certainly seems like a disaster.

Svakako se čini kao katastrofa.

Could be a war movie.

Mogao bi biti ratni film.

Also fits.

Takođe se uklapa.

But what I keep thinking is that we're in a zombie apocalypse movie.

No, ja uporno mislim da smo u filmu apokalipse zombija.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Right? You know the kind.

There's people wandering around in packs,

Znate tu vrstu.

Tu su ljudi koji tumaraju u grupama,

not thinking for themselves,

ne razmišljaju svojom glavom,

seized by this mob mentality

obuzeti mentalitetom mase,

trying to spread their disease and destroy society.

pokušavajući da prošire svoju bolest i unište društvo.

And you probably think, as I do,

Verovatno mislite, kao i ja,

that you're the good guy in the zombie apocalypse movie,

da ste dobar lik u filmu o apokalipsi zombija,

and all this hate and polarization, it's being propagated by the other people,

a svu tu mržnju i polarizaciju propagiraju drugi ljudi,

because we're Brad Pitt, right?

jer mi smo Bred Pit, zar ne?

Free-thinking, righteous,

Slobodoumni, pravedni,

just trying to hold on to what we hold dear,

samo pokušavamo da zadržimo ono do čega nam je stalo.

you know, not foot soldiers in the army of the undead.

Znate, nismo pešaci u vojsci zombija.

Not that.

To ne.

Never that.

To nikako.

But here's the thing:

Međutim, evo u čemu je stvar.

what movie do you suppose they think they're in?

Šta mislite, u kom filmu oni misle da su?

Right?

Well, they absolutely think that they're the good guys

Pa, oni potpuno veruju da su dobri likovi

u filmu o apokalipsi zombija, zar ne?

in the zombie apocalypse movie. Right?

And you'd better believe that they think that they're Brad Pitt

I bolje bi vam bilo da poverujete da misle da su Bred Pit,

and that we, we are the zombies.

a da smo mi zombiji.

And who's to say that they're wrong?

Ko može da kaže da nisu u pravu?

I think that the truth is that we're all a part of this.

Mislim da je istina da smo svi deo ovoga.

And the good side of that is that we can be a part of the solution.

Dobra strana toga je da možemo biti deo rešenja.

So what are we going to do?

Pa, šta ćemo da radimo?

What can we do to chip away at polarization in everyday life?

Šta možemo da učinimo da narušimo polarizaciju u svakodnevnom životu?

What could we do to connect with and communicate with

Šta možemo da uradimo da bismo se povezali i komunicirali

our political counterparts?

sa našim političkim suparnicima?

Well, these were exactly the questions that I and my colleague, Matt Feinberg,

Pa, upravo to su pitanja kojima smo ja i moj kolega, Met Fajnberg,

became fascinated with a few years ago,

postali opčinjeni pre nekoliko godina

and we started doing research on this topic.

i počeli smo da sprovodimo istraživanje na ovu temu.

And one of the first things that we discovered

Jedna od prvih stvari koju smo otkrili,

that I think is really helpful for understanding polarization

za koju mislim da je veoma korisna za razumevanje polarizacije,

is to understand

je razumeti da političku podelu u našoj zemlji

that the political divide in our country is undergirded by a deeper moral divide.

podupire dublja moralna podela.

So one of the most robust findings in the history of political psychology

Jedan od najsnažnijih nalaza u istoriji političke psihologije

is this pattern identified by Jon Haidt and Jesse Graham,

je obrazac koji su identifikovali Džon Hajt i Džesi Grejem, psiholozi,

psychologists,

that liberals and conservatives tend to endorse different values

da liberali i konzervativci obično podržavaju različite vrednosti

to different degrees.

u različitoj meri.

So for example, we find that liberals tend to endorse values like equality

Na primer, nalazimo da liberali obično podržavaju vrednosti

poput jednakosti, pravednosti i zaštite od nepravdi

and fairness and care and protection from harm

more than conservatives do.

u većoj meri od konzervativaca,

And conservatives tend to endorse values like loyalty, patriotism,

a konzervativci obično podržavaju vrednosti poput lojalnosti, patriotizma,

respect for authority and moral purity

poštovanja prema autoritetu i moralne čistote

more than liberals do.

više nego liberali.

And Matt and I were thinking that maybe this moral divide

Met i ja smo pomislili da bi možda ta moralna podela

might be helpful for understanding how it is

mogla biti od pomoći u razumevanju

that liberals and conservatives talk to one another

načina na koji liberali i konzervativci međusobno razgovaraju

and why they so often seem to talk past one another

i zašto se toliko često mimoilaze u razgovoru.

when they do.

Stoga smo sproveli istraživanje

So we conducted a study

where we recruited liberals to a study

u kome smo doveli liberale,

where they were supposed to write a persuasive essay

gde je trebalo da napišu ubedljiv esej

that would be compelling to a conservative in support of same-sex marriage.

koji bi bio ubedljiv za konzervativca u prilog istopolnog braka.

And what we found was that liberals tended to make arguments

Otkrili smo da su liberali bili skloni da iznose argumente

in terms of the liberal moral values of equality and fairness.

koji se tiču liberalnih moralnih vrednosti jednakosti i pravednosti.

So they said things like,

Navodili su stvari poput:

"Everyone should have the right to love whoever they choose,"

„Svi treba da imaju pravo da vole koga izaberu“,

and, "They" -- they being gay Americans --

i „Oni“ - a „oni“ su gej Amerikanci -

"deserve the same equal rights as other Americans."

„zaslužuju jednaka prava kao i drugi Amerikanci.“

Overall, we found that 69 percent of liberals

Sve u svemu, pronašli smo da se 69 procenata liberala

invoked one of the more liberal moral values in constructing their essay,

pri sastavljanju eseja pozivalo na jednu od liberalnijih moralnih vrednosti,

and only nine percent invoked one of the more conservative moral values,

a samo devet procenata se pozivalo na jednu od konzervativnijih vrednosti,

even though they were supposed to be trying to persuade conservatives.

iako je trebalo da pokušaju da ubede konzervativce.

And when we studied conservatives and had them make persuasive arguments

A kada smo izučavali konzervativce i zadali im da iznesu ubedljive argumente

in support of making English the official language of the US,

u prilog proglašavanja engleskog kao zvaničnog jezika SAD-a,

a classically conservative political position,

klasično konzervativne političke pozicije,

we found that they weren't much better at this.

pronašli smo da nisu mnogo bolji u tome.

Pedeset devet procenata njih je iznelo argumente

59 percent of them made arguments

in terms of one of the more conservative moral values,

koji se tiču jedne od konzervativnijih moralnih vrednosti,

and just eight percent invoked a liberal moral value,

a samo osam posto se pozivalo na liberalnu moralnu vrednost,

even though they were supposed to be targeting liberals for persuasion.

iako je trebalo da budu usmereni na to da budu ubedljivi za liberale.

Now, you can see right away why we're in trouble here. Right?

Odmah možete videti zašto smo u nevolji, zar ne?

People's moral values, they're their most deeply held beliefs.

Moralne vrednosti ljudi su njihova najdublja uverenja.

People are willing to fight and die for their values.

Ljudi su spremni da se bore i da umru za svoje vrednosti.

Why are they going to give that up just to agree with you

Zašto bi odustali od toga samo da bi se složili sa vama

on something that they don't particularly want to agree with you on anyway?

u vezi sa nečim oko čega baš i ne žele da se slože sa vama?

If that persuasive appeal that you're making to your Republican uncle

Ako to ubedljivo obraćanje koje podnosite svom ujaku republikancu

znači da ne samo da treba da promeni svoje gledište,

means that he doesn't just have to change his view,

he's got to change his underlying values, too,

već da mora i da promeni svoje osnovne vrednosti,

that's not going to go very far.

to neće daleko odmaći.

So what would work better?

Šta bi moglo da bolje deluje?

Well, we believe it's a technique that we call moral reframing,

Pa, smatramo da je to tehnika koju nazivamo moralno preokviravanje

and we've studied it in a series of experiments.

i izučavali smo je u nizu eksperimenata.

In one of these experiments,

U jednom od tih eksperimenata

we recruited liberals and conservatives to a study

sakupili smo liberale i konzervativce u istraživanju

where they read one of three essays

gde su čitali jedan od tri eseja

before having their environmental attitudes surveyed.

pre nego što su anketirani u pogledu stavova prema životnoj sredini.

And the first of these essays

Prvi od tih eseja

was a relatively conventional pro-environmental essay

bio je relativno konvencionalni esej za zaštitu životne sredine

that invoked the liberal values of care and protection from harm.

koji je pobuđivao liberalne vrednosti brige i zaštite od nepravde.

It said things like, "In many important ways

Govorio je stvari poput: „Na mnogo bitnih načina,

we are causing real harm to the places we live in,"

nanosimo pravu štetu mestima u kojima živimo“

and, "It is essential that we take steps now

i „Od ključnog je značaja da sada preduzmemo korake

to prevent further destruction from being done to our Earth."

da bismo sprečili dalje uništavanje naše Zemlje.“

Another group of participants

Drugoj grupi učesnika

were assigned to read a really different essay

je zadato da pročitaju veoma drugačiji esej

that was designed to tap into the conservative value of moral purity.

koji je osmišljen tako da zadire u konzervativnu vrednost moralne čistote.

To je, takođe, bio esej u prilog zaštite sredine

It was a pro-environmental essay as well,

and it said things like,

i navodio je stvari poput:

"Keeping our forests, drinking water, and skies pure is of vital importance."

„Održavanje naših šuma, pijaće vode i neba čistim je od presudnog značaja.“

"We should regard the pollution

„Zagađivanje mesta na kojima živimo treba da smatramo odvratnim“,

of the places we live in to be disgusting."

And, "Reducing pollution can help us preserve

kao i: „Smanjenje zagađivanja nam može pomoći da očuvamo

what is pure and beautiful about the places we live."

ono što je čisto i lepo u mestima u kojima živimo.“

And then we had a third group

Zatim smo imali treću grupu

kojoj je dodeljeno da čita samo esej nevezan za politiku.

that were assigned to read just a nonpolitical essay.

It was just a comparison group so we could get a baseline.

To je bila samo grupa za poređenje da bismo dobili osnovni nivo.

And what we found when we surveyed people

Otkrili smo, kada smo anketirali ljude

about their environmental attitudes afterwards,

u vezi sa njihovim stavovima prema životnoj sredini nakon toga,

we found that liberals, it didn't matter what essay they read.

da kod liberala nije bilo bitno koji esej su pročitali.

They tended to have highly pro-environmental attitudes regardless.

Bez obzira na to su bili skloni da imaju izrazite stavove za zaštitu sredine.

Liberals are on board for environmental protection.

Liberali podržavaju zaštitu životne sredine.

Conservatives, however,

Konzervativci su, međutim,

were significantly more supportive of progressive environmental policies

značajno više podržavali progresivnu ekološku politiku

and environmental protection

i zaštitu životne sredine

if they had read the moral purity essay

kada bi pročitali esej o moralnoj čistoti

than if they read one of the other two essays.

nego kada bi pročitali jedan od druga dva eseja.

We even found that conservatives who read the moral purity essay

Čak smo pronašli da su konzervativci koji su pročitali esej o moralnoj čistoti

were significantly more likely to say that they believed in global warming

bili značajno skloniji da kažu da veruju u globalno zagrevanje

and were concerned about global warming,

i bili su zabrinuti zbog njega,

iako ovaj esej nije ni pominjao globalno zagrevanje.

even though this essay didn't even mention global warming.

To je samo srodna ekološka tema.

That's just a related environmental issue.

But that's how robust this moral reframing effect was.

Toliko je bio snažan ovaj efekat moralnog preokviravanja.

And we've studied this on a whole slew of different political issues.

Izučavali smo ovo na mnoštvu različitih političkih pitanja.

So if you want to move conservatives

Dakle, ako hoćete da pokrenete konzervativce

u pogledu pitanja poput istopolnog braka ili nacionalnog zdravstvenog osiguranja,

on issues like same-sex marriage or national health insurance,

it helps to tie these liberal political issues to conservative values

pomaže ako ta liberalna politička pitanja vežete za konzervativne vrednosti

like patriotism and moral purity.

kao što su patriotizam i moralna čistota.

And we studied it the other way, too.

Izučavali smo to i obrnuto.

If you want to move liberals to the right on conservative policy issues

Ako hoćete da pokrenete liberale na desno, u vezi sa konzervativnim političkim temama

like military spending and making English the official language of the US,

kao što su vojni troškovi i proglašenje engleskog jezika za zvanični jezik SAD-a,

you're going to be more persuasive

bićete mnogo ubedljiviji

if you tie those conservative policy issues to liberal moral values

ako ta konzervativna politička pitanja vežete za liberalne moralne vrednosti

like equality and fairness.

kao što su jednakost i pravednost.

All these studies have the same clear message:

Sva ova istraživanja imaju istu jasnu poruku -

if you want to persuade someone on some policy,

ako želite da ubedite nekoga u vezi sa određenom politikom,

it's helpful to connect that policy to their underlying moral values.

od pomoći je ako povežete tu politiku sa njegovim osnovnim moralnim vrednostima.

And when you say it like that

Kada to tako kažete,

it seems really obvious. Right?

deluje vrlo očigledno, zar ne?

Like, why did we come here tonight?

U fazonu, zašto smo došli ovde večeras?

Why --

Zašto -

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

It's incredibly intuitive.

Neverovatno je intuitivno.

And even though it is, it's something we really struggle to do.

Iako jeste tako, to je nešto oko čega se zaista mučimo.

You know, it turns out that when we go to persuade somebody on a political issue,

Ispostavilo se da kada hoćemo da ubedimo nekog u vezi sa političkim pitanjem,

we talk like we're speaking into a mirror.

govorimo kao da se obraćamo ogledalu.

We don't persuade so much as we rehearse our own reasons

Ne ubeđujemo toliko koliko recitujemo sopstvene razloge

for why we believe some sort of political position.

zašto verujemo u neku političku poziciju.

We kept saying when we were designing these reframed moral arguments,

Stalno smo govorili kada smo osmišljavali ove preokvirene moralne argumente:

"Empathy and respect, empathy and respect."

„Empatija i poštovanje, empatija i poštovanje.“

If you can tap into that,

Ako možete da uđete u to,

you can connect

možete se povezati

and you might be able to persuade somebody in this country.

i možda ćete moći da ubedite nekoga u ovoj zemlji.

So thinking again

Ako ponovo razmislim

about what movie we're in,

o tome u kom smo filmu,

maybe I got carried away before.

možda sam se prethodno zaneo.

Maybe it's not a zombie apocalypse movie.

Možda nije film o apokalipsi zombija.

Maybe instead it's a buddy cop movie.

Možda se radi o filmu sa pandurima ortacima.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Just roll with it, just go with it please.

Samo prihvatite to, molim vas.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

You know the kind: there's a white cop and a black cop,

Znate taj tip - imate belog policajca i policajca koji je crnac,

or maybe a messy cop and an organized cop.

ili možda pogubljenog i organizovanog policajca.

Whatever it is, they don't get along

Šta god da je u pitanju, ne slažu se zbog te razlike,

because of this difference.

But in the end, when they have to come together and they cooperate,

ali na kraju, kada moraju da se udruže i sarađuju,

the solidarity that they feel,

solidarnost koju osećaju

it's greater because of that gulf that they had to cross. Right?

je još veća zbog tog jaza koji su morali da prevaziđu, zar ne?

And remember that in these movies,

Sećate se da je u tim filmovima

it's usually worst in the second act

obično najgore u drugom činu

when our leads are further apart than ever before.

kada su naši junaci udaljeniji nego ikada pre.

And so maybe that's where we are in this country,

Možda je to mesto na kome se nalazimo u ovoj zemlji,

late in the second act of a buddy cop movie --

u poodmaklom drugom činu filma sa pandurima ortacima -

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

torn apart but about to come back together.

razjedinjenim, ali uskoro će se ponovo udružiti.

It sounds good,

Dobro zvuči,

but if we want it to happen,

ali ako hoćemo da se to dogodi,

I think the responsibility is going to start with us.

mislim da odgovornost počinje sa nama.

So this is my call to you:

Stoga je moj poziv vama

let's put this country back together.

da ponovo ujedinimo ovu zemlju.

Let's do it despite the politicians

Hajde da to uradimo uprkos političarima,

and the media and Facebook and Twitter

medijima, Fejsbuku, Tviteru, kongresnim izmenama granica okruga

and Congressional redistricting

and all of it, all the things that divide us.

i svemu tome, svim stvarima koje nas razdvajaju.

Let's do it because it's right.

Uradimo to jer je ispravno.

And let's do it because this hate and contempt

I uradimo to jer nas ova mržnja i prezir

that flows through all of us every day

koji svakodnevno prožimaju sve nas

makes us ugly and it corrupts us,

čine groznim i kvare nas,

and it threatens the very fabric of our society.

a to preti samoj strukturi našeg društva.

We owe it to one another and our country

Dugujemo jedni drugima i našoj zemlji

to reach out and try to connect.

da pružimo ruku i pokušamo da se povežemo.

We can't afford to hate them any longer,

Ne možemo priuštiti da ih više mrzimo,

and we can't afford to let them hate us either.

a ni da im dopustimo da nas mrze.

Empathy and respect.

Empatija i poštovanje.

Empathy and respect.

Empatija i poštovanje.

If you think about it, it's the very least that we owe our fellow citizens.

Ako razmislite o tome, to je najmanje što dugujemo našim sugrađanima.

Thank you.

Hvala.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)