Empathy Is Not Endorsement | Dylan Marron | TED

翻译人员: janice zhu 校对人员: Yolanda Zhang

Hi.

嗨。

I've received hate online.

我在网上收到了仇恨的情绪。

A lot of it.

很多很多。

And it comes with the territory of my work.

这跟我的工作领域有关。

I'm a digital creator,

我是一名数字创作者，

I make things specifically for the internet.

专门制作网络作品。

Like, a few years ago, I made a video series called "Every Single Word"

大概几年前，我制作了一个 视频系列，名叫“每字每句“，

where I edited down popular films

是把流行影片剪辑成

to only the words spoken by people of color,

只有非白人演员说台词的短视频，

as a way to empirically and accessibly talk about the issue of representation

以此来直观实际地讨论 好莱坞的有色群体代表

in Hollywood.

这一话题。

Then, later, as transphobic bathroom bill

后来，由于“跨性别厕所令”

started gaining media attention around the United States,

开始在全美范围引发媒体关注，

I hosted and produced an interview series

我主持并制作了一个访谈系列，

called "Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People"

名叫“与跨性别人士共厕“，

where I did exactly that.

真的是坐在厕所里访谈。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And then --

然后——

Sure, I'll take applause.

没错，此处应有掌声。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

Thank you.

谢谢。

And then, are you familiar with those unboxing videos on YouTube

对了，你们看过 YouTube上的拆箱视频吧？

where YouTubers open up the latest electronic gadgets?

那些YouTube博主直播拆开 最新电子产品包装盒。

Great, so I satirized those in a weekly series,

好的，那为了讽刺他们， 我又做了一个周播系列，

where instead I unboxed intangible ideologies

不过我拆箱的是无形的意识形态，

like police brutality, masculinity and the mistreatment of Native Americans.

比如警察暴行，男性气概 和对美洲原住民的虐待。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

My work --

我的作品——

Thanks.

谢谢。

One person applauding, God bless.

谢天谢地，有一个人鼓掌了。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Mom, hi.

嗨，是你啊，老妈。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

So, my work became popular.

于是我的作品火起来了，

Very popular.

非常火。

I got millions of views, a ton of great press

有数百万浏览量，大量媒体报导，

and a slew of new followers.

我还多了一群新的追随者。

But the flip side of success on the internet

但是在网上成功的另一面

is internet hate.

是网络仇恨。

I was called everything.

我被冠以各种称号。

From "beta" to "snowflake" and, of course, the ever-popular "cuck."

“贝塔“、" 雪片人“， 当然，还有一直很流行的“绿帽侠”。

Don't worry, I will break these terms down for you.

别担心，我会一个一个解释。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

So, "beta," for those of you unfamiliar,

“贝塔”，如果你不了解这个词的话，

is shorthand online lingo for "beta male."

它是网络词汇“贝塔男” （性格温和，带点阴柔美的男性）的缩写。

But let's be real, I wear pearl earrings

不过说真的，我戴着珍珠耳环，

and my fashion aesthetic is rich-white-woman-running-errands,

而我的时尚观是白富美上班族，

so I'm not angling to be an alpha.

压根儿没想成为阿尔法女 （比男性更出色的女性，类似女汉子）。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

Doesn't totally work.

完全没可能嘛。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Now, "snowflake" is a put-down for people who are sensitive

再来说“雪片人”， 它是形容一个人很敏感，

and believe themselves to be unique,

觉得自己很特殊，

and I'm a millennial and an only child, so, duh!

而我是千禧一代（80年以后出生）， 又是独生子，所以，还真说对了！

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But my favorite, favorite, favorite is "cuck."

但是我最、最、最爱的 还是绿帽侠“cuck"。

It's a slur, short for "cuckold,"

它是被戴绿帽的人 "cuckold"的简读，

for men who have been cheated on by their wives.

指被自己妻子背叛的男人。

But friends, I am so gay,

可是朋友们呐，我是同性恋，

that if I had a wife, I would encourage her to cheat on me.

就算真有妻子， 我也会鼓励她出轨。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Thank you.

谢谢。

Let's take a look at some of this negativity in action.

让我们回到正题，看几个负面评论。

Sometimes it's direct.

有时评论很直接。

Like Marcos, who wrote,

像马科斯，他写道，

“你身上具有一切我讨厌的人类特征。”

"You're everything I hate in a human being."

Thank you, Marcos.

马科斯，谢谢哈。

Others are more concise.

有些就更简洁些。

Like Donovan, who wrote, "gaywad fagggggg."

像多诺万，他写的是， “土里土气的基佬。“

Now, I do need to point out, Donovan is not wrong, OK?

对了，我有必要说下， 多诺万并没有错。

In fact, he's right on both counts, so credit where credit is due.

实际上他两点都说对了， 得给予他认可。

Thank you, Donovan.

多诺万，也谢谢你啦。

Others write to me with questions, like Brian, who asked,

还有人问问题，像布莱恩，他问，

"Were you born a bitch or did you just learn to be one over time?"

“你是天生的婊子还是后天学成的？”

But my favorite thing about this

不过我最喜欢的就是

is that once Brian was done typing, his finger must have slipped

布莱恩打完字肯定手滑了，

because then he sent me the thumbs-up emoji.

因为他接着发了一个“赞”的表情。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

So, babe, thumbs up to you, too.

所以，亲，我也给你个赞吧。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

It's fun to talk about these messages now.

这些网友留言说起来很好玩。

Right?

对吧？

And it's cathartic to laugh at them.

调侃这些留言也是一种宣泄。

But I can tell you that it really does not feel good to receive them.

但是我可以告诉大家 接到它们的滋味可真不好受。

At first, I would screenshot their comments

一开始，我会截屏网友的评论

and make fun of their typos,

然后取笑他们的拼写错误，

but this soon felt elitist and ultimately unhelpful.

不过很快我就觉得自己太“高高在上”， 而且最终这也没啥用。

So over time, I developed an unexpected coping mechanism.

所以逐渐地，我研究出 一套新奇的应付机制。

Because most of these messages I received were through social media,

因为多数我收到的留言 都是通过社交媒体，

I could often click on the profile picture of the person who sent them

我经常可以点开 发送人的个人资料图片，

and learn everything about them.

了解他们的所有信息。

I could see pictures they were tagged in,

我能看见标记了他们的图片，

posts they'd written, memes they'd shared,

他们写的帖子，分享的谜因，

and somehow, seeing that it was a human on the other side of the screen

知道屏幕另一边有一个人存在

made me feel a little better.

多少能让我感觉好一些。

Not to justify what they wrote, right?

不是去证实他们 写的对不对，可以理解吧？

But just to provide context.

只是去了解下背景。

Still, that didn't feel like enough.

但是，感觉还缺点什么。

So, I called some of them --

所以，我给其中一些人打电话——

only the ones I felt safe talking to --

只打给那些我觉得能交谈的人——

with a simple opening question:

用一个简单的问题开场：

"Why did you write that?"

“你为什么要写那个（评论）？”

The first person I spoke to was Josh.

我第一个对话的人是乔什。

He had written to tell me that I was a moron,

他写信说我是一个白痴，

I was a reason this country was dividing itself,

说我是这个国家分裂的原因，

and he added at the end that being gay was a sin.

结尾他又补充说 同性恋是一种罪恶。

I was so nervous for our first conversation.

第一次对话我紧张极了。

This wasn't a comments section.

这可不是网友评论部分，

So I couldn't use tools like muting or blocking.

所以我不能静音或屏蔽。

Of course, I guess, I could have hung up on him.

当然，我想， 我本来也可以挂断的。

But I didn't want to.

但是我不想。

Because I liked talking to him.

因为我喜欢跟他说话。

Because I liked him.

说实话我挺喜欢他的。

Here's a clip of one of our conversations.

给大家听一个对话片段。

(Audio) Dylan Marron: Josh, you said

（音频）迪伦·马龙： 乔什，你说

你快高中毕业了，是吧？

you're about to graduate high school, right?

Josh: Mmm-hmm.

乔什：是啊。

DM: How is high school for you?

迪伦·马龙： 那你的高中怎么样？

Josh: Am I allowed to use the H-E-double-hockey-stick word?

乔什：我可以说H-E-L-L 这样骂人的话吗？

迪伦·马龙：行，说吧。

DM: Oh, yeah. You're allowed to.

Josh: It was hell.

乔什：简直就是地狱。

DM: Really?

迪伦·马龙：真的吗？

Josh: And it's still hell right now, even though it's only two weeks left.

乔什：虽然只有两周就毕业了， 但我现在还感觉跟在地狱似的。

I'm a little bit bigger -- I don't like to use the word "fat,"

我体型比较大—— 我不喜欢用“胖”这个词，

but I am a little bit bigger than a lot of my classmates

我只是比很多同学都大了一圈儿，

and they seem to judge me before they even got to know me.

可是他们甚至还不认识我呢， 就对我指指点点。

DM: That's awful.

迪伦·马龙：真不像话。

I mean, I also just want to let you know, Josh,

我是说，我也想跟你说，乔什，

I was bullied in high school, too.

我在高中也被人欺负过。 （音频结束）

So did our common ground of being bullied in high school

那么在高中被人欺负 这个共同点会不会抹掉

erase what he wrote me?

他写给我的那些东西？

No.

不会。

And did our single phone conversation

我们这一通电话交流

radically heal a politically divided country

会不会从根本上拯救 一个政治分裂的国家，

and cure systemic injustice?

并消除系统性的不公正？

No, absolutely not, right?

不会，完全不会，对吧？

But did our conversation humanize us to each other

但是我们的对话 是不是比个人资料图片和发帖

more than profile pictures and posts ever could?

都更能拉近彼此的距离？

Absolutely.

当然。

I didn't stop there.

我没有就此止步。

Because some of the hate I received was from "my side."

因为我收到的一些仇恨 来自于“我方“。

So when Matthew, a queer liberal artist like me

所以当马修，一个跟我一样的 奇特自由派艺术家

publicly wrote that I represented some of the worst aspects of liberalism,

公开的说，我代表了 自由主义最糟糕的一些方面，

I wanted to ask him this.

我就想问他下面这个问题。

DM: You tagged me in this post.

（音频）迪伦·马龙： 在这个帖子里你标记了我。

Did you want me to see it?

是想让我看到吗？

Matthew (Laughing): I honestly didn't think that you would.

马修（笑）：坦白说 我没想过你会看。

DM: Have you ever been publicly dragged?

迪伦·马龙：你有没有 被公开标记过？

Matthew: I have been.

马修：有过。

And I just said, "No, I don't care."

然后我就说，“我不在乎。”

DM: And did you not care?

迪伦·马龙：你不在乎？

马修：但是挺难的。

Matthew: But it was hard.

迪伦·马龙：真的就不在乎？

DM: Did you not care?

Matthew: Oh, I cared, yes.

马修：哎，其实我还是很在乎的。 （音频结束）

DM: At the end of these conversations,

在这些对话结尾，

there's often a moment of reflection.

经常会有一段反思的时间。

A reconsideration.

重新思考。

And that's exactly what happened

我在和一个叫道格的家伙 通话快结束时

at the end of my call with a guy named Doug

就发生了这样的事，

who had written that I was a talentless propaganda hack.

他说我是一个 毫无天分的宣传黑客。

(Audio) Did the conversation we just had --

（音频）迪伦·马龙： 我们刚才的对话——

does it, like, make you feel differently about how you write online?

有没有让你感觉 和在网上写评论不一样？

Doug: Yeah! You know, when I said this to you,

道格：嗯！你知道吗， 当我跟你在网上对话，

when I said you were a "talentless hack,"

当我说你是一个 “毫无天分的黑客”时，

我其实从没在 现实生活中和你交流过。

I had never conversed with you in my life, really.

I didn't really know anything really about you.

我其实并不真正了解你。

我想来想去，

And I think that a lot of times,

that's what the comment sections really are,

这就是评论的本质吧，

it's really a way to get your anger at the world out

一种把自己对世界的愤怒 发泄在陌生人身上的方式，

on random profiles of strangers, pretty much.

真的，几乎可以这么说。

DM (Laughing): Yeah, right.

迪伦·马龙（笑）： 哈哈，是啊。

Doug: But it definitely has made me rethink

道格：但是它绝对 开始让我重新思考

the way that I interact with people online.

与人在网上互动的方式。 （音频结束）

DM: So I've collected these conversations and many others

迪伦·马龙：所以我把这些 还有很多这样的交谈

for my podcast "Conversations with People Who Hate Me."

汇总制作成播客 “和仇恨我的人对话。“

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Before I started this project,

在开始这个项目前，

I thought that the real way to bring about change

我以为带来改变的真正方法

was to shut down opposing viewpoints

是通过精心措辞的 视频文章、评论和帖子

through epically worded video essays and comments and posts,

来阻止对立观点，

but I soon learned those were only cheered on

不过我很快就意识到这些只会

by the people who already agreed with me.

让已经支持我的人欢呼。

Sometimes -- bless you.

有时——祝福你。

Sometimes, the most subversive thing you could do --

有时，你能做的 最颠覆的事就是——

yeah, clap for him.

对啊，鼓励他一下吧。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Sometimes, the most subversive thing you could do

有时，你能做的最颠覆的事

was to actually speak with the people you disagreed with,

就是和那些与你有分歧的人交谈，

and not simply at them.

而不仅仅是去嘲讽他们。

Now in every one of my calls,

现在，在每一次通话中，

I always ask my guests to tell me about themselves.

我总会请嘉宾介绍一下自己。

And it's their answer to this question that allows me to empathize with them.

他们对这个问题的答案 让我能够同情下他们。

And empathy, it turns out,

事实证明，同情

is a key ingredient in getting these conversations off the ground,

是让交流顺利开始的关键因素，

but it can feel very vulnerable

但是去同情一个

to be empathizing with someone you profoundly disagree with.

和你有严重分歧的人 会使人变得很脆弱。

So I established a helpful mantra for myself.

所以我给自己设立了 一条有用的原则。

Empathy is not endorsement.

同情不是认可。

Empathizing with someone you profoundly disagree with

同情一个你极其反对的人

does not suddenly compromise your own deeply held beliefs

并不会突然地就违背你深信的观念，

and endorse theirs.

而去认可他们的观念。

Empathizing with someone who, for example, believes that being gay is a sin

比如，同情一个认为 同性恋是一种罪恶的人，

doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to drop everything,

并不意味着我忽然 就要放下自己的一切，

pack my bags and grab my one-way ticket to hell, right?

非要抢一张去地狱的单程票，对吗？

It just means that I'm acknowledging

它只是意味着我认可

the humanity of someone who was raised to think very differently from me.

有这样一类人，他们被塑造成为 与我想法截然不同的人。

I also want to be super clear about something.

我也想彻底明白一些事。

This is not a prescription for activism.

这不是行动派的解决方案。

I understand that some people don't feel safe

我理解有些人

talking to their detractors

觉得与自己的反对者交谈不安全，

and others feel so marginalized

而另一些人会觉得自己被严重排挤，

that they justifiably don't feel that they have any empathy to give.

以至于他们有理由觉得 自己没有什么同情要给予。

I totally get that.

我完全理解。

This is just what I feel well-suited to do.

这只是我觉得适合做的事情。

You know, I've reached out to a lot of people for this podcast.

你们知道吗， 我联系了很多人来这档播客。

And some have politely declined,

有些人礼貌的拒绝了，

others have read my message and ignored it,

有些人已经读了我的信息， 但是没有理会，

some have blocked me automatically when I sent the invitation

还有些人在我发邀请时 已经自动把我屏蔽，

and one guy actually agreed to do it

最后有一个家伙居然同意了，

and then, five minutes into the call,

然而，通话五分钟后，

hung up on me.

他挂断了。

I'm also aware that this talk will appear on the internet.

我也知道这个演讲会被放到网上。

And with the internet comes comment sections,

放到网上就会有评论，

and with comment sections inevitably comes hate.

有评论就会有仇恨。

So as you are watching this talk,

所以在你观看这个演讲时，

you can feel free to call me whatever you'd like.

你可以随便称呼我。

You can call me a "gaywad," a "snowflake," a "cuck," a "beta,"

你可以叫我“同性恋“、”雪片人“、 ”绿帽侠“、”贝塔男“，

or "everything wrong with liberalism."

或是“自由主义的一切过错”。

But just know that if you do, I may ask you to talk.

但是记住了，如果你这样做了， 我可能就会请你来谈谈。

And if you refuse or block me automatically

如果你拒绝或是自动屏蔽，

or agree and hang up on me,

或者是同意了又挂断我电话，

then maybe, babe, the snowflake is you.

那么，亲，你可能才是 那个“雪片人”哟。

Thank you so much.

非常感谢。

（鼓掌）

(Applause)

(Cheering)

（欢呼）

(Applause)

（鼓掌）