Empathy Is Not Endorsement | Dylan Marron | TED

315,486 views ・ 2018-05-18

TED


μ•„λž˜ μ˜λ¬Έμžλ§‰μ„ λ”λΈ”ν΄λ¦­ν•˜μ‹œλ©΄ μ˜μƒμ΄ μž¬μƒλ©λ‹ˆλ‹€.

λ²ˆμ—­: Whayoung Cha κ²€ν† : Yoonyoung Chang
00:12
Hi.
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μ•ˆλ…•ν•˜μ„Έμš”.
00:14
I've received hate online.
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μ €λŠ” 온라인 혐였λ₯Ό λ°›μ•„λ³Έ 적이 μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:18
A lot of it.
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κ½€ 많이 λ°›μ•˜μ£ .
00:19
And it comes with the territory of my work.
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그리고 그건 제 업무 μ˜μ—­μ˜ μΌλΆ€λΆ„μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:22
I'm a digital creator,
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μ €λŠ” 디지털 ν¬λ¦¬μ—μ΄ν„°μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:23
I make things specifically for the internet.
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특히 인터넷을 ν†΅ν•œ μ°½μž‘ ν™œλ™μ„ ν•˜κ³  있죠.
00:27
Like, a few years ago, I made a video series called "Every Single Word"
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λͺ‡ λ…„ μ „μ—” '단어 ν•œλ§ˆλ””'λΌλŠ” λΉ„λ””μ˜€ μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆλ₯Ό λ§Œλ“€μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:31
where I edited down popular films
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유λͺ…ν•œ μ˜ν™”λ“€μ„ νŽΈμ§‘ν•΄μ„œ
00:33
to only the words spoken by people of color,
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μœ μƒ‰μΈμ’…λ“€μ˜ λŒ€μ‚¬λ₯Ό μ§œμ§‘κΈ°ν•œ κ²ƒμ΄μ—ˆλŠ”λ°μš”.
00:36
as a way to empirically and accessibly talk about the issue of representation
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ν• λ¦¬μš°λ“œκ°€ 그듀을 μ–΄λ–»κ²Œ λ¬˜μ‚¬ν•˜κ³  μžˆλŠ”μ§€λ₯Ό
μ‹€μ§ˆμ μœΌλ‘œ μ ‘κ·Όμ„±μžˆκ²Œ μ „λ‹¬ν•˜κ³ μž ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:40
in Hollywood.
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00:42
Then, later, as transphobic bathroom bill
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κ·Έ ν›„, νŠΈλžœμŠ€μ  λ”μ˜ ν™”μž₯μ‹€ μ‚¬μš©μ„ μ œν•œν•˜λŠ” λ²•μ•ˆμ—
00:45
started gaining media attention around the United States,
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λ―Έ μ „μ—­μ—μ„œ μ–Έλ‘ μ˜ 이λͺ©μ΄ μ§‘μ€‘λ˜μ—ˆ λ•Œ
00:49
I hosted and produced an interview series
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"νŠΈλžœμŠ€μ  λ”μ™€ λ‚˜λž€νžˆ ν™”μž₯싀에 μ•‰μ•„μ„œ"λΌλŠ”
00:51
called "Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People"
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인터뷰 μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆλ₯Ό κΈ°νšν•˜κ³  μ§„ν–‰ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
00:54
where I did exactly that.
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μ‹€μ œλ‘œ μ œκ°€ μ €κ±Έ ν–ˆμ£ .
00:56
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
00:57
And then --
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그리고 λ‚˜μ„œ
00:58
Sure, I'll take applause.
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λ„€, λ°•μˆ˜ κ°μ‚¬νžˆ λ°›μ„κ²Œμš”.
01:00
(Applause)
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(λ°•μˆ˜)
01:02
Thank you.
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κ°μ‚¬ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:03
And then, are you familiar with those unboxing videos on YouTube
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μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„ ν˜Ήμ‹œ 유투브 μ˜μƒ μ€‘μ—μ„œ
01:07
where YouTubers open up the latest electronic gadgets?
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μœ νˆ¬λ²„λ“€μ΄ μ‹ μ œν’ˆ 디지털 κΈ°κΈ°λ₯Ό μƒμžμ§Έ κ°œλ΄‰ν•˜λŠ” κ±Έ λ³Έ 적 μžˆμœΌμ„Έμš”?
01:11
Great, so I satirized those in a weekly series,
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μ•„μ‹œλŠ”κ΅°μš”, μ œκ°€ 그것을 ν’μžν•΄μ„œ μ£Όκ°„ μ‹œλ¦¬μ¦ˆλ¬Όλ‘œ λ§Œλ“€μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:14
where instead I unboxed intangible ideologies
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μ „μžκΈ°κΈ° λŒ€μ‹  λ¬΄ν˜•μ˜ 이데올둜기λ₯Ό κ°œλ΄‰ν•˜λŠ” μ»¨μ…‰μ΄μ—ˆμ£ .
01:18
like police brutality, masculinity and the mistreatment of Native Americans.
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이λ₯Όν…Œλ©΄ 경찰의 λ¬΄μžλΉ„ν•¨, 남성성,
아메리카 원주민듀에 λŒ€ν•œ ν•™λŒ€ 같은 κ±Έ λ‹€λ€˜μ£ .
01:23
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
01:25
My work --
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제 일은..
01:26
Thanks.
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κ°μ‚¬ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:27
One person applauding, God bless.
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ν•œ 뢄이 λ°•μˆ˜λ₯Ό μ³μ£Όμ‹œλ„€μš”. λ³΅λ°›μœΌμ„Έμš”.
01:29
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
01:31
Mom, hi.
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μ—„λ§ˆμ˜€λ„€μš”. μ•ˆλ…•?
01:33
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
01:35
So, my work became popular.
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κ·Έλ ‡κ²Œ 제 μž‘μ—…μ€ 유λͺ…ν•΄μ‘ŒμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:38
Very popular.
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μ•„μ£Ό 유λͺ…ν•΄μ‘Œμ£ .
01:39
I got millions of views, a ton of great press
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μ˜μƒλ“€μ€ 수백만 λ·°λ₯Ό μ°μ—ˆκ³ , λ‹€μˆ˜μ˜ 언둠에 보도됐고,
01:42
and a slew of new followers.
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μƒˆ νŒ”λ‘œμ›Œλ„ 많이 생겼죠.
01:44
But the flip side of success on the internet
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 인터넷상 μ„±κ³΅μ˜ 또 λ‹€λ₯Έ 면이
01:47
is internet hate.
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인터넷 ν˜μ˜€λ”κ΅°μš”.
01:49
I was called everything.
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μ €λŠ” μ˜¨κ°– μ†Œλ¦¬λ₯Ό λ‹€ λ“€μ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
01:51
From "beta" to "snowflake" and, of course, the ever-popular "cuck."
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'베타'λΆ€ν„° 'λˆˆμ†‘μ΄'λž€ μ†Œλ¦¬λ„ λ“€μ—ˆκ³ 
'μΏ‘'μ΄λΌλŠ” 말도 λ‹Ήμ—°νžˆ 늘 따라닀녔죠.
01:57
Don't worry, I will break these terms down for you.
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κ±±μ •λ§ˆμ„Έμš”, 무슨 말인지 μ œκ°€ μ„€λͺ…ν•΄λ“œλ¦¬κ² μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:00
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
02:01
So, "beta," for those of you unfamiliar,
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'베타'λΌλŠ” 말이 λ‚―μ„  뢄듀이 계싀 ν…λ°μš”.
02:03
is shorthand online lingo for "beta male."
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'베타 남성'의 인터넷 μ•½μ–΄λ‘œ 후진 λ‚¨μžλΌλŠ” 뜻이죠.
02:07
But let's be real, I wear pearl earrings
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ ν˜„μ‹€μ μœΌλ‘œ 생각해보죠. μ €λŠ” 진주 귀걸이λ₯Ό ν•˜κ³  λ‹€λ‹ˆκ³ 
02:09
and my fashion aesthetic is rich-white-woman-running-errands,
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제 νŒ¨μ…˜μŠ€νƒ€μΌμ€ λΆ€μœ ν•œ 백인 직μž₯ μ—¬μ„± μŠ€νƒ€μΌμ΄κΈ° λ•Œλ¬Έμ—
02:13
so I'm not angling to be an alpha.
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μ „ ν›ˆλ‚¨μ΄ 될 마음이 μ „ν˜€ μ—†μ–΄μš”.
02:15
(Applause)
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(λ°•μˆ˜)
02:17
Doesn't totally work.
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μ ˆλŒ€ μ•ˆλ˜μ£ .
02:20
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
02:21
Now, "snowflake" is a put-down for people who are sensitive
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'λˆˆμ†‘μ΄'λž€ 말은 μ˜ˆλ―Όν•˜κ³ , μžμ‹ μ΄ νŠΉλ³„ν•œ 쀄 μ•„λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒμ„
02:24
and believe themselves to be unique,
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깔보며 λΆ€λ₯΄λŠ” 말이죠.
02:26
and I'm a millennial and an only child, so, duh!
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근데 μ „ λ°€λ ˆλ‹ˆμ–Ό μ„ΈλŒ€κ³  외동인데 μ–΄μ©Œμ£ !
02:30
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
02:33
But my favorite, favorite, favorite is "cuck."
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ μ œκ°€ 정말 κ°€μž₯ λ§˜μ— λ“œλŠ” 말은 'μΏ‘'μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:37
It's a slur, short for "cuckold,"
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'λ°”λžŒλ§žμ€ λ‚¨μž'의 μ€„μž„λ§μΈλ°μš”.
02:39
for men who have been cheated on by their wives.
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뢀인이 λ°”λžŒ ν•€, ν•œλ§ˆλ””λ‘œ 말해 λ°”λžŒλ§žμ€ λ‚¨μžλ₯Ό λ§ν•΄μš”.
02:42
But friends, I am so gay,
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„, μ €λŠ” μ™„μ „ κ²Œμ΄λžλ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:44
that if I had a wife, I would encourage her to cheat on me.
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뢀인이 μžˆμ—ˆλ‹€λ©΄, 제발 λ°”λžŒ μ’€ 피라고 뢀좔겼을 κ±°μ˜ˆμš”.
02:48
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
02:50
Thank you.
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κ°μ‚¬ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:52
Let's take a look at some of this negativity in action.
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이제, 이런 λΉ„νŒμ˜ 면면을 μ‹€μ œλ‘œ μ‚΄νŽ΄λ³΄μ£ .
02:57
Sometimes it's direct.
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가끔은 맀우 μ§μ ‘μ μž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
02:58
Like Marcos, who wrote,
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마λ₯΄μ½”μŠ€λŠ” 이런 λŒ“κΈ€μ„ λ‚¨κ²ΌλŠ”λ°μš”.
03:00
"You're everything I hate in a human being."
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"λ„Œ λ‚΄κ°€ μ‹«μ–΄ν•˜λŠ” λͺ¨λ“  μΈκ°„μ˜ 집합체야."
03:02
Thank you, Marcos.
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κ³ λ§™μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€, 마λ₯΄μ½”μŠ€.
03:04
Others are more concise.
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μ–΄λ–€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€ μ’€ 더 κ°„κ²°ν•˜λ”λΌκ΅¬μš”.
03:06
Like Donovan, who wrote, "gaywad fagggggg."
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λ„λ…Έλ°˜μ˜ λŒ“κΈ€μ€ μ΄λ ‡μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€. "게이 λ™μ„±μ• μž~~~"
03:09
Now, I do need to point out, Donovan is not wrong, OK?
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이 말을 κΌ­ ν•΄μ•Όκ² λ„€μš”.
λ„λ…Έλ°˜μ΄ ν‹€λ¦° 게 μ•„λ‹ˆμ—μš”. κ·Έλ ‡μ£ ?
03:14
In fact, he's right on both counts, so credit where credit is due.
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사싀 그의 말 λ‘˜ λ‹€ λ§žμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€. 인정할 것은 인정해야죠.
03:18
Thank you, Donovan.
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κ³ λ§™μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€, λ„λ…Έλ°˜.
03:19
Others write to me with questions, like Brian, who asked,
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제게 μ§ˆλ¬Έμ„ ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒλ„ μžˆμ—ˆλŠ”λ°μš”. λΈŒλΌμ΄μ–Έμ€ μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ λ¬Όμ—ˆμ£ .
03:23
"Were you born a bitch or did you just learn to be one over time?"
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"μ›λž˜λΆ€ν„° 그런 λ†ˆμ΄μ—ˆλƒ μ•„λ‹ˆλ©΄ ν¬λ©΄μ„œ λ°°μš΄κ±°λƒ?"
03:27
But my favorite thing about this
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근데 μ—¬κΈ°μ„œ μ§„μ§œ μž¬λ°ŒλŠ” 건
03:29
is that once Brian was done typing, his finger must have slipped
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λΈŒλΌμ΄μ–Έμ΄ νƒ€μžλ₯Ό 친 λ‹€μŒμ— 손가락이 λ―ΈλŒμ–΄μ§„ 게 λΆ„λͺ…ν•˜λ‹¨ κ±°μ˜ˆμš”.
03:33
because then he sent me the thumbs-up emoji.
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μ™œλƒν•˜λ©΄ μ €ν•œν…Œ 엄지손을 μΉ˜μΌœλ“  이λͺ¨ν‹°μ½˜μ„ λ³΄λƒˆκ±°λ“ μš”.
03:36
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
03:38
So, babe, thumbs up to you, too.
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그래, λΈŒλΌμ΄μ–Έ, λ„ˆμ—κ²Œλ„ 엄지척을 보낸닀.
03:41
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
03:43
It's fun to talk about these messages now.
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μ§€κΈˆμ€ 이런 λ©”μ‹œμ§€λ“€μ— λŒ€ν•΄ μ΄μ•ΌκΈ°ν•˜λŠ” 게 μž¬λ°Œμ–΄μš”.
03:46
Right?
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κ·Έλ ‡μ£ ?
03:47
And it's cathartic to laugh at them.
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그런 λ©”μ‹œμ§€λ₯Ό 보며 μ›ƒλŠ” 것도 카타λ₯΄μ‹œμŠ€κ°€ λ˜μ§€μš”.
03:50
But I can tell you that it really does not feel good to receive them.
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 이런 λ©”μ‹œμ§€λ₯Ό 받을 λ•Œ, μ§„μ§œ 기뢄이 μ•ˆ μ’‹λ‹€λŠ” 건 λΆ„λͺ…ν•΄μš”.
03:56
At first, I would screenshot their comments
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μ²˜μŒμ—λŠ” 이런 λŒ“κΈ€λ“€μ„ λ‹€ μΊ‘μ³ν•΄μ„œ
03:59
and make fun of their typos,
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μ˜€νƒ€λ₯Ό μ§€μ ν•˜λ©° 놀리기도 ν–ˆμ§€λ§Œ
04:00
but this soon felt elitist and ultimately unhelpful.
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곧 μ—˜λ¦¬νŠΈμ£Όμ˜μžκ°€ 된 것 κ°™μ•˜κ³ , κΆκ·Ήμ μœΌλ‘œλŠ” 도움도 μ•ˆλμ–΄μš”.
04:05
So over time, I developed an unexpected coping mechanism.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ‹œκ°„μ΄ μ§€λ‚˜λ©΄μ„œ λœ»λ°–μ˜ λŒ€μ‘λ²•μ΄ μƒκΈ°κ²Œ 됐죠.
04:09
Because most of these messages I received were through social media,
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μ œκ°€ 받은 λŒ€λΆ€λΆ„μ˜ 이런 λ©”μ‹œμ§€λ“€μ€ μ†Œμ…œλ―Έλ””μ–΄λ₯Ό 톡해 μ˜€λŠ” κ²ƒμ΄μ—ˆκ±°λ“ μš”.
04:13
I could often click on the profile picture of the person who sent them
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그런 λ©”μ‹œμ§€λ₯Ό 보낸 μ‚¬λžŒμ˜ ν”„λ‘œν•„ 사진을 μ’…μ’… ν΄λ¦­ν•΄μ„œ
04:16
and learn everything about them.
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그듀에 λŒ€ν•œ λͺ¨λ“  것을 μ•Œ 수 μžˆμ—ˆμ£ .
그듀이 νƒœκ·Έλœ 사진듀, 남긴 κΈ€, 그듀이 κ³΅μœ ν•œ 지방도 λ³Ό 수 μžˆμ—ˆμ£ .
04:19
I could see pictures they were tagged in,
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04:20
posts they'd written, memes they'd shared,
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04:23
and somehow, seeing that it was a human on the other side of the screen
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ν•œνŽΈμœΌλ‘ , 그듀도 κ²°κ΅­ 슀크린 κ±΄λ„ˆ ν•œ μΈκ°„μ΄λΌλŠ” 것을 보게 λ˜λ©΄μ„œ
04:26
made me feel a little better.
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기뢄이 μ’€ λ‚˜μ•„μ§€κΈ΄ ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
04:28
Not to justify what they wrote, right?
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그듀이 μ“΄ κ±Έ μ •λ‹Ήν™”ν•˜λŠ” 건 μ•„λ‹ˆκ΅¬μš”, μ•„μ‹œμ£ ?
04:31
But just to provide context.
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ κ·Έλƒ₯ 전후사정을 μ„€λͺ…ν•˜λŠ” κ±°μ˜ˆμš”.
04:34
Still, that didn't feel like enough.
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ κ·Έκ²ƒλ§ŒμœΌλ‘œλŠ” μΆ©λΆ„ν•œ λŠλ‚Œμ΄ 듀지 μ•Šμ•˜μ£ .
04:37
So, I called some of them --
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ €λŠ” κ·Έλ“€ μ€‘μ—μ„œ
04:40
only the ones I felt safe talking to --
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μ–˜κΈ°ν•˜κΈ° μ•ˆμ „ν•˜λ‹€ 싢은 λͺ‡λͺ‡ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ—κ²Œλ§Œ μ „ν™”λ₯Ό ν•΄μ„œ
04:42
with a simple opening question:
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이런 κ°„λ‹¨ν•œ 질문으둜 λŒ€ν™”λ₯Ό μ‹œμž‘ν–ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
04:45
"Why did you write that?"
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"μ™œ 그런 글을 μ“΄ κ±°μ£ ?"
04:47
The first person I spoke to was Josh.
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μ œκ°€ 처음으둜 ν†΅ν™”ν•œ μ‚¬λžŒμ€ μ‘°μ‰¬μ˜€μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
04:50
He had written to tell me that I was a moron,
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κ·Έκ°€ 글을 남기길, μ œκ°€ λ°”λ³΄μ²œμΉ˜μ΄κ³ 
04:52
I was a reason this country was dividing itself,
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이 λ‚˜λΌκ°€ λΆ„μ—΄λ˜λŠ” 원인이라고 μΌμ–΄μš”.
04:55
and he added at the end that being gay was a sin.
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그리고 λ§ˆμ§€λ§‰μœΌλ‘œ λ”ν•˜κΈΈ, 게이인 게 죄라고 ν•˜λ”κ΅°μš”.
05:00
I was so nervous for our first conversation.
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첫 톡화λ₯Ό ν•˜λ©΄μ„œ 정말 κΈ΄μž₯ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
05:03
This wasn't a comments section.
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이건 λŒ“κΈ€μ°½μ— 글을 λ‚¨κΈ°λŠ” 게 μ•„λ‹ˆμž–μ•„μš”.
05:05
So I couldn't use tools like muting or blocking.
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μŒμ†Œκ±°λ‚˜ 차단 κΈ°λŠ₯을 μ“Έ μˆ˜λ„ μ—†λŠ” κ±°μ˜€μ£ .
05:08
Of course, I guess, I could have hung up on him.
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λ¬Όλ‘ , ν†΅ν™”ν•˜λ‹€κ°€ λŠμ„ μˆ˜λŠ” μžˆκ² λ‹€ μ‹Άμ—ˆμ–΄μš”.
05:12
But I didn't want to.
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 그러고 싢진 μ•Šμ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
05:13
Because I liked talking to him.
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그와 ν†΅ν™”ν•˜λŠ” 게 μ’‹μ•˜κ±°λ“ μš”.
05:15
Because I liked him.
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κ·Έ μ‚¬λžŒμ΄ μ’‹μ•˜κ±°λ“ μš”.
05:18
Here's a clip of one of our conversations.
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μš°λ¦¬κ°€ λ‚˜λˆˆ λŒ€ν™” 쀑 ν•˜λ‚˜λ₯Ό μ§€κΈˆ λ“€λ €λ“œλ¦΄κ²Œμš”.
05:21
(Audio) Dylan Marron: Josh, you said
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(μŒμ„±) λ”œλŸ°: 쑰쉬, 이제 곧 고등학ꡐλ₯Ό μ‘Έμ—…ν•œλ‹€κ³  ν–ˆμ£ ?
05:23
you're about to graduate high school, right?
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05:25
Josh: Mmm-hmm.
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쑰쉬: λ§žμ•„μš”.
05:26
DM: How is high school for you?
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λ”œλŸ°: 고등학ꡐ λ‹€λ‹ˆκΈ° μ–΄λ•Œμš”?
05:28
Josh: Am I allowed to use the H-E-double-hockey-stick word?
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쑰쉬: HE λ‹€μŒμ— ν•˜ν‚€μ±„ λͺ¨μ–‘ μ•ŒνŒŒλ²³ 2개 λ‚˜μ˜€λŠ” 단어 써도 λ˜λ‚˜μš”?
05:31
DM: Oh, yeah. You're allowed to.
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λ”œλŸ°: 물둠이죠, μ“°μ„Έμš”.
05:32
Josh: It was hell.
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쑰쉬: μ™„μ „ 지μ˜₯μ΄μ—ˆμ–΄μš”.
05:34
DM: Really?
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λ”œλŸ°: μ •λ§μš”?
05:35
Josh: And it's still hell right now, even though it's only two weeks left.
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쑰쉬: μ§€κΈˆλ„ μ—¬μ „νžˆ 지μ˜₯μ΄μ—μš”. 겨우 2μ£Ό λ‚¨μ•˜λŠ”λ°λ„μš”.
05:38
I'm a little bit bigger -- I don't like to use the word "fat,"
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μ „ 쑰금 λ©μΉ˜κ°€ 큰 편인데, λš±λš±ν•˜λ‹€κ³  λ§ν•˜κ³  싢진 μ•Šκ΅¬μš”.
05:41
but I am a little bit bigger than a lot of my classmates
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κ·Έλƒ₯ 반 μΉœκ΅¬λ“€λ³΄λ‹€ 쑰금 클 뿐인데
05:44
and they seem to judge me before they even got to know me.
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애듀은 μ €λ₯Ό μ•ŒκΈ°λ„ 전에 절 νŒλ‹¨ν•˜λŠ” κ±° κ°™μ•„μš”.
05:48
DM: That's awful.
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λ”œλŸ°: 그건 μ§„μ§œ λ³„λ‘œλ‹€.
05:50
I mean, I also just want to let you know, Josh,
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그런데, 저도 말해쀄 게 μžˆλŠ”λ°μš”.
05:52
I was bullied in high school, too.
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저도 고등학ꡐ λ•Œ μ™•λ”°μ˜€μ–΄μš”.
05:57
So did our common ground of being bullied in high school
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ 우리 λ‘˜ λͺ¨λ‘ 고등학ꡐ λ•Œ μ™•λ”°μ˜€λ‹€λŠ” 곡톡점이 μžˆλ‹€κ³  ν•΄μ„œ
06:00
erase what he wrote me?
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쑰쉬가 λŒ“κΈ€μ„ μ§€μ› μ„κΉŒμš”?
06:02
No.
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μ•„λ‹ˆμ—μš”.
06:03
And did our single phone conversation
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단 ν•œ 번의 μ „ν™” ν†΅ν™”λ‘œ
06:06
radically heal a politically divided country
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μ •μΉ˜μ μœΌλ‘œ λΆ„μ—΄λœ λ‚˜λΌκ°€ 치유되고
06:09
and cure systemic injustice?
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μ œλ„μ  λΆˆν‰λ“±μ΄ ν•΄κ²°λ κΉŒμš”?
06:12
No, absolutely not, right?
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μ•„λ‹ˆμš”, μ ˆλŒ€ μ•„λ‹ˆμ—μš”. κ·Έλ ‡μ£ ?
06:15
But did our conversation humanize us to each other
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 우리의 λŒ€ν™”κ°€ κ·Έ μ–΄λ–€ ν”„λ‘œν•„ μ‚¬μ§„μ΄λ‚˜ ν¬μŠ€νŒ…λ³΄λ‹€
06:18
more than profile pictures and posts ever could?
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우리 μ„œλ‘œλ₯Ό μΈκ°„λ‹΅κ²Œ λ§Œλ“€μ—ˆλŠ”μ§€ λ¬»λŠ”λ‹€λ©΄
06:21
Absolutely.
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물둠이죠.
06:23
I didn't stop there.
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μ €λŠ” κ±°κΈ°μ„œ λ©ˆμΆ”μ§€ μ•Šμ•˜μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
06:24
Because some of the hate I received was from "my side."
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μ™œλƒν•˜λ©΄ μ œκ°€ 받은 증였 쀑 μΌλΆ€λŠ” "제 편"μ—μ„œ μ˜€λŠ” κ²ƒμ΄μ—ˆκ±°λ“ μš”.
06:29
So when Matthew, a queer liberal artist like me
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ €μ²˜λŸΌ λ™μ„±μ• μžλ©΄μ„œ μžμœ μ˜ˆμˆ κ°€μΈ λ§€νŠœκ°€
06:33
publicly wrote that I represented some of the worst aspects of liberalism,
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μ œκ°€ 자유주의의 κ°€μž₯ μ•ˆ 쒋은 면듀을 λŒ€λ³€ν•œλ‹€κ³  곡개적으둜 썼을 λ•Œ
06:37
I wanted to ask him this.
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μ €λŠ” μ΄λ ‡κ²Œ 묻고 μ‹Άμ—ˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
06:40
DM: You tagged me in this post.
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λ”œλŸ°: μ €λ₯Ό 이 ν¬μŠ€νŒ…μ— νƒœκ·Έν–ˆλ”κ΅°μš”.
06:42
Did you want me to see it?
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μ œκ°€ 이걸 보길 λ°”λžλ‚˜μš”?
06:44
Matthew (Laughing): I honestly didn't think that you would.
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맀튜 (μ›ƒμœΌλ©°): μ „ μ†”μ§νžˆ 당신이 λ³Ό 거라 생각 μ•ˆ ν–ˆμ–΄μš”.
06:46
DM: Have you ever been publicly dragged?
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λ”œλŸ°: ν•œ λ²ˆμ΄λΌλ„ 곡개적으둜 μ°½ν”Όλ‹Ήν•œ 적이 μžˆλ‚˜μš”?
06:49
Matthew: I have been.
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맀튜: μžˆμ–΄μš”.
06:51
And I just said, "No, I don't care."
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μ „ κ·Έλƒ₯ 상관없닀고 λ§ν–ˆμ£ .
06:53
DM: And did you not care?
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λ”œλŸ°: μ‹ κ²½ 쓰지 μ•Šμ•˜λ‹€κ΅¬μš”? 맀튜: 그치만 νž˜λ“€μ—ˆμ–΄μš”.
06:55
Matthew: But it was hard.
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λ”œλŸ°: μ‹ κ²½ 쓰이지 μ•Šμ•˜λ‹€κ΅¬μš”?
06:56
DM: Did you not care?
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06:57
Matthew: Oh, I cared, yes.
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맀튜: μ‹ κ²½ μ“°μ˜€μ£ , κ·ΈλŸΌμš”.
07:00
DM: At the end of these conversations,
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λ”œλŸ°: 이런 λŒ€ν™” λμ—λŠ”
07:02
there's often a moment of reflection.
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μ’…μ’… μ„±μ°°μ˜ μˆœκ°„μ΄ 있곀 ν•˜μ£ .
07:04
A reconsideration.
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λ‹€μ‹œ ν•œ 번 μƒκ°ν•˜λŠ” κ±°μ£ .
07:06
And that's exactly what happened
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그리고 λ°”λ‘œ 그런 일이
07:08
at the end of my call with a guy named Doug
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λ•μ΄λΌλŠ” μΉœκ΅¬μ™€ 톡화λ₯Ό 마칠 λ•Œμ―€ μΌμ–΄λ‚¬μŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
07:10
who had written that I was a talentless propaganda hack.
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κ·ΈλŠ” μ €μ—κ²Œ 재λŠ₯μ—†λŠ” 선동꾼 λ†ˆμ΄λΌκ³  ν–ˆμ£ .
07:14
(Audio) Did the conversation we just had --
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(μŒμ„±) μš°λ¦¬κ°€ 방금 λ‚˜λˆˆ λŒ€ν™”λ“€λ‘œ
07:16
does it, like, make you feel differently about how you write online?
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당신이 μ˜¨λΌμΈμ— κΈ€μ“°λŠ” κ²ƒκ³ΌλŠ” λ‹€λ₯΄κ²Œ λŠκ»΄μ§€λ˜κ°€μš”?
07:20
Doug: Yeah! You know, when I said this to you,
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덕: λ„€! λ­λž„κΉŒ, κ·Έ 말을 λ‹Ήμ‹ μ—κ²Œ ν–ˆμ„ λ•Œ
07:22
when I said you were a "talentless hack,"
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"재λŠ₯μ—†λŠ” λ†ˆ"이라고 ν–ˆμ„ λ•ŒλŠ”
평생 λ‹Ήμ‹ κ³Ό μ–˜κΈ°λ„ λ‚˜λˆ  λ³Έ 적이 μ—†μ—ˆμž–μ•„μš”.
07:24
I had never conversed with you in my life, really.
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07:26
I didn't really know anything really about you.
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μ „ 정말 당신에 λŒ€ν•΄ μ•„λŠ” 게 아무것도 μ—†μ—ˆμ–΄μš”.
07:29
And I think that a lot of times,
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그리고 이런 생각을 자주 ν•˜λŠ”λ°μš”.
07:30
that's what the comment sections really are,
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그게 온라인 λŒ“κΈ€μ°½μ΄ μ‘΄μž¬ν•˜λŠ” 이유인 κ±°μ˜ˆμš”.
07:32
it's really a way to get your anger at the world out
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λΆ„λ…Έλ₯Ό λ°–μœΌλ‘œ λΆ„μΆœν•˜λŠ” 쒋은 λ°©λ²•μ΄λ‹ˆκΉŒμš”.
07:37
on random profiles of strangers, pretty much.
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λŒ€λΆ€λΆ„ κ·Έλƒ₯ λͺ¨λ₯΄λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒμ˜ λ‚―μ„  ν”„λ‘œν•„μ—λ‹€ λŒ€κ³  말이죠.
07:40
DM (Laughing): Yeah, right.
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λ”œλŸ° (μ›ƒμœΌλ©°): λ„€, λ§žμ•„μš”.
07:42
Doug: But it definitely has made me rethink
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덕: ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ 이 κΈ°νšŒμ— μ§„μ§œ λ‹€μ‹œ μƒκ°ν•΄λ³΄κ²Œ λμ–΄μš”.
07:45
the way that I interact with people online.
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μ œκ°€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€κ³Ό μ˜¨λΌμΈμƒμ—μ„œ μ†Œν†΅ν•˜λŠ” 방법에 λŒ€ν•΄μ„œμš”.
07:50
DM: So I've collected these conversations and many others
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λ”œλŸ°: μ €λŠ” 이런 λŒ€ν™”λ“€μ„ 많이 μˆ˜μ§‘ν•΄μ„œ 팟캐슀트λ₯Ό λƒˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
07:53
for my podcast "Conversations with People Who Hate Me."
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"λ‚˜λ₯Ό μ‹«μ–΄ν•˜λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒλ“€κ³Όμ˜ λŒ€ν™”"λΌλŠ” 제λͺ©μœΌλ‘œμš”.
07:57
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
07:59
Before I started this project,
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이 ν”„λ‘œμ νŠΈλ₯Ό μ‹œμž‘ν•˜κΈ° μ „μ—λŠ”
08:01
I thought that the real way to bring about change
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λ³€ν™”λ₯Ό λ§Œλ“œλŠ” μ§„μ§œ 방법이
08:04
was to shut down opposing viewpoints
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λ°˜λŒ€νŽΈ μ˜κ²¬μ„ λ©ˆμΆ”κ²Œ ν•˜λŠ” 것이라고 μƒκ°ν–ˆμ£ .
08:07
through epically worded video essays and comments and posts,
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μ„œμ‚¬μ μΈ μ–Έμ–΄λ‘œ 된 λΉ„λ””μ˜€ 에세이와 μ½”λ©˜νŠΈ, 그리고 ν¬μŠ€νŒ…μ„ ν†΅ν•΄μ„œμš”.
08:11
but I soon learned those were only cheered on
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ, κ·Έ 방법은 저와 이미 생각이 같은 μ‚¬λžŒλ“€λ§Œ
08:14
by the people who already agreed with me.
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μ§€μ§€ν•˜λŠ” κ²ƒμ΄λΌλŠ” κ±Έ 곧 μ•Œκ²Œ 됐죠.
08:17
Sometimes -- bless you.
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λ•Œλ•Œλ‘œ.. κ°μ‚¬ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
08:18
Sometimes, the most subversive thing you could do --
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λ•Œλ•Œλ‘œ μš°λ¦¬κ°€ ν•  수 μžˆλŠ” κ°€μž₯ ν˜μ‹ μ μΈ 행동은..
08:21
yeah, clap for him.
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λ„€, μ €λΆ„κ»˜ λ°•μˆ˜μ£Όμ„Έμš”.
08:23
(Laughter)
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(μ›ƒμŒ)
08:27
Sometimes, the most subversive thing you could do
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λ•Œλ‘œ μš°λ¦¬κ°€ ν•  수 μžˆλŠ” κ°€μž₯ ν˜μ‹ μ μΈ 행동은
08:29
was to actually speak with the people you disagreed with,
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μš°λ¦¬μ™€ λœ»μ„ λ‹¬λ¦¬ν•˜λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒλ“€κ³Ό λŒ€ν™”λ₯Ό λ‚˜λˆ„λŠ” κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
08:33
and not simply at them.
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κ·Έλ“€μ—κ²Œ 일방적으둜 μ£Όμž₯ν•˜λŠ” 게 μ•„λ‹ˆκ³ μš”.
08:35
Now in every one of my calls,
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λͺ¨λ“  μ‚¬λžŒλ“€κ³Όμ˜ ν†΅ν™”μ—μ„œ
08:37
I always ask my guests to tell me about themselves.
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μ €λŠ” 항상 κ·Έλ“€μ—κ²Œ μžμ‹ μ— λŒ€ν•΄ 말해달라고 ν•΄μš”.
08:40
And it's their answer to this question that allows me to empathize with them.
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μ œκ°€ κ·Έλ“€κ³Ό 곡감할 수 있게 된 건 이 μ§ˆλ¬Έμ— λŒ€ν•œ κ·Έλ“€μ˜ λ‹΅λ³€μ΄μ—μš”.
08:45
And empathy, it turns out,
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그리고 κ³΅κ°μ΄μ•Όλ§λ‘œ
08:47
is a key ingredient in getting these conversations off the ground,
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이런 λŒ€ν™”λ₯Ό μ§„ν–‰ν•˜κ²Œ ν•˜λŠ” 핡심 재료죠.
08:51
but it can feel very vulnerable
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ν•˜μ§€λ§Œ λ‹Ήμ‹ κ³Ό 본질적으둜 λœ»μ„ λ‹¬λ¦¬ν•˜λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒμ— κ³΅κ°ν•œλ‹€λŠ” 것은
08:53
to be empathizing with someone you profoundly disagree with.
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μƒμ²˜λ°›λŠ” 일일 μˆ˜λ„ 있죠.
08:57
So I established a helpful mantra for myself.
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κ·Έλž˜μ„œ μ €λŠ” μ € μžμ‹ μ— 도움이 λ˜λŠ” 주문을 ν•˜λ‚˜ λ§Œλ“€μ—ˆμ–΄μš”.
09:01
Empathy is not endorsement.
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곡감은 곡개적인 지지가 μ•„λ‹ˆμ—μš”.
09:04
Empathizing with someone you profoundly disagree with
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μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„κ³Ό λœ»μ„ λ‹¬λ¦¬ν•˜λŠ” λˆ„κ΅°κ°€μ—κ²Œ κ³΅κ°ν•œλ‹€λŠ” 것은
09:07
does not suddenly compromise your own deeply held beliefs
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μ—¬λŸ¬λΆ„μ˜ κΉŠμ€ 신념을 κ°‘μžκΈ° 버리고 κ·Έλ“€μ˜ 생각을 μ§€μ§€ν•˜λŠ” 게 μ•„λ‹™λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:11
and endorse theirs.
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09:12
Empathizing with someone who, for example, believes that being gay is a sin
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예λ₯Ό λ“€μ–΄, 게이인 게 죄악이라 λ―ΏλŠ” μ‚¬λžŒμ—κ²Œ κ³΅κ°ν•œλ‹€λŠ” 게
09:16
doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to drop everything,
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κ°‘μžκΈ° λͺ¨λ“  κ±Έ 버리고
09:19
pack my bags and grab my one-way ticket to hell, right?
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κ°€λ°© μ‹Έμ„œ 지μ˜₯ν–‰ νŽΈλ„ 티켓을 λŠλŠ” 건 μ•„λ‹ˆμž–μ•„μš”, κ·Έλ ‡μ£ ?
09:22
It just means that I'm acknowledging
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단지 저와 μ „ν˜€ λ‹€λ₯Έ 생각을 μ œκΈ°ν•˜λŠ”
09:24
the humanity of someone who was raised to think very differently from me.
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λˆ„κ΅°κ°€μ˜ 인간성을 μΈμ •ν•œλ‹€λŠ” 의미인 κ±°μ˜ˆμš”.
09:29
I also want to be super clear about something.
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μ œκ°€ 또 λΆ„λͺ…νžˆ ν•˜κ³  싢은 것이 μžˆλŠ”λ°μš”.
09:32
This is not a prescription for activism.
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이건 ν–‰λ™μ£Όμ˜λ₯Ό μœ„ν•œ μ²˜λ°©μ „μ΄ μ•„λ‹ˆλΌλŠ” κ±°μ˜ˆμš”.
09:35
I understand that some people don't feel safe
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μžμ‹ μ„ ν„ν•˜ν•˜λŠ” μ‚¬λžŒλ“€κ³Ό μ–˜κΈ°ν•˜λŠ” 것이 νŽΈν•˜μ§€ μ•Šμ€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ΄ μžˆλ‹€λŠ” κ±Έ μ•Œκ³ 
09:37
talking to their detractors
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09:39
and others feel so marginalized
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μ–΄λ–€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€ λ„ˆλ¬΄ μ†Œμ™Έλ˜μ–΄
09:41
that they justifiably don't feel that they have any empathy to give.
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λ‚¨μ—κ²Œ 곡감할 μ—¬λ ₯이 μ—†λŠ” 것을 λ‹Ήμ—°ν•˜κ²Œ μƒκ°ν•˜μ£ .
09:45
I totally get that.
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μ €λŠ” μΆ©λΆ„νžˆ μ΄ν•΄ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
09:46
This is just what I feel well-suited to do.
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이건 κ·Έλƒ₯ μ œκ°€ νŽΈν•˜κ²Œ μƒκ°ν•˜λŠ” λ°©λ²•μ΄μ—μš”.
09:49
You know, I've reached out to a lot of people for this podcast.
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μ•„μ‹œλ‹€μ‹œν”Ό 이 팟캐슀트λ₯Ό μœ„ν•΄ λ§Žμ€ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ„ μ ‘μ΄‰ν–ˆλŠ”λ°μš”.
09:52
And some have politely declined,
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λͺ‡λͺ‡ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€μ€ μ •μ€‘νžˆ κ±°μ ˆν•˜κΈ°λ„ ν–ˆκ³ 
09:54
others have read my message and ignored it,
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제 λ©”μ‹œμ§€λ₯Ό 읽고도 λ¬΄μ‹œν•œ μ‚¬λžŒλ“€λ„ μžˆμ—ˆκ³ 
09:56
some have blocked me automatically when I sent the invitation
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λͺ‡λͺ‡μ€ μ œκ°€ μ΄ˆλŒ€μž₯을 λ³΄λ‚΄μž μžλ™μœΌλ‘œ μ°¨λ‹¨μ‹œμΌ°μ£ .
ν•œ μΉœκ΅¬λŠ” μ‹€μ œλ‘œ 제 μ΄ˆλŒ€μ— μ‘ν•˜κ³ λ„
10:00
and one guy actually agreed to do it
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10:01
and then, five minutes into the call,
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5λΆ„κ°„ 톡화λ₯Ό ν•˜λ‹€κ°€
10:03
hung up on me.
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λŠμ–΄λ²„λ Έμ£ .
10:05
I'm also aware that this talk will appear on the internet.
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였늘 이 λ°œν‘œκ°€ 인터넷에 올라갈 κ±°λΌλŠ” κ±Έ 잘 μ•Œκ³  μžˆμŠ΅λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:09
And with the internet comes comment sections,
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그리고 인터넷에 μ˜¬λΌκ°€λ©΄ λŒ“κΈ€μ°½μ΄ 생기고
10:11
and with comment sections inevitably comes hate.
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λŒ“κΈ€μ°½μ΄ 생기면 λΆˆκ°€ν”Όν•˜κ²Œ μ•…ν”Œλ„ μƒκΉλ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:15
So as you are watching this talk,
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κ·ΈλŸ¬λ‹ˆ 이 λ°œν‘œλ₯Ό 보신 뢄듀은
10:17
you can feel free to call me whatever you'd like.
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μ–Έμ œλ“  μ›ν•˜μ‹€ λ•Œ 제게 전화해주셔도 λΌμš”.
10:19
You can call me a "gaywad," a "snowflake," a "cuck," a "beta,"
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μ €λ₯Ό 'κ²Œμ΄λ†ˆ', 'λˆˆμ†‘μ΄', 'μΏ‘', '베타'라고 λΆ€λ₯΄μ…”도 λ©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:24
or "everything wrong with liberalism."
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μ•„λ‹ˆλ©΄, "자유주의의 μ˜¨κ°– λ³‘νλ§Œ 가진 λ†ˆ"이라 λΆˆλŸ¬λ„ μ’‹μ•„μš”.
10:27
But just know that if you do, I may ask you to talk.
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κ·Έ λŒ€μ‹  μ œκ°€ μ–˜κΈ° μ’€ ν•˜μžκ³  할지도 λͺ¨λ₯Έλ‹€λŠ” 것도 μ•Œμ•„μ£Όμ„Έμš”.
10:31
And if you refuse or block me automatically
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λ§Œμ•½ λŒ€ν™”λ₯Ό κ±°λΆ€ν•˜κ±°λ‚˜ μ €λ₯Ό μžλ™ μ°¨λ‹¨ν•˜κ±°λ‚˜
10:35
or agree and hang up on me,
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μ–˜κΈ°ν•˜κΈ°λ‘œ 해놓고 μ „ν™”λ₯Ό λŠλŠ”λ‹€λ©΄
10:37
then maybe, babe, the snowflake is you.
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κ·Έλ ‡λ‹€λ©΄ μ•„λ§ˆλ„ μ§„μ§œ λˆˆμ†‘μ΄λŠ” λ°”λ‘œ 당신일지 λͺ¨λ¦…λ‹ˆλ‹€.
10:40
Thank you so much.
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κ°μ‚¬ν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€.
(λ°•μˆ˜)
10:42
(Applause)
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(ν™˜ν˜Έ)
10:44
(Cheering)
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10:45
(Applause)
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(λ°•μˆ˜)
이 μ›Ήμ‚¬μ΄νŠΈ 정보

이 μ‚¬μ΄νŠΈλŠ” μ˜μ–΄ ν•™μŠ΅μ— μœ μš©ν•œ YouTube λ™μ˜μƒμ„ μ†Œκ°œν•©λ‹ˆλ‹€. μ „ 세계 졜고의 μ„ μƒλ‹˜λ“€μ΄ κ°€λ₯΄μΉ˜λŠ” μ˜μ–΄ μˆ˜μ—…μ„ 보게 될 κ²ƒμž…λ‹ˆλ‹€. 각 λ™μ˜μƒ νŽ˜μ΄μ§€μ— ν‘œμ‹œλ˜λŠ” μ˜μ–΄ μžλ§‰μ„ 더블 ν΄λ¦­ν•˜λ©΄ κ·Έκ³³μ—μ„œ λ™μ˜μƒμ΄ μž¬μƒλ©λ‹ˆλ‹€. λΉ„λ””μ˜€ μž¬μƒμ— 맞좰 μžλ§‰μ΄ μŠ€ν¬λ‘€λ©λ‹ˆλ‹€. μ˜κ²¬μ΄λ‚˜ μš”μ²­μ΄ μžˆλŠ” 경우 이 문의 양식을 μ‚¬μš©ν•˜μ—¬ λ¬Έμ˜ν•˜μ‹­μ‹œμ˜€.

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