Empathy Is Not Endorsement | Dylan Marron | TED

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Yanyan Hong

Hi.

嗨。

I've received hate online.

我在網上常常會收到仇恨。

A lot of it.

很多的仇恨。

And it comes with the territory of my work.

這和我工作的領域有關。

I'm a digital creator,

我是數位創作者，

I make things specifically for the internet.

我專門為網路製做東西。

Like, a few years ago, I made a video series called "Every Single Word"

比如，幾年前，我做了一系列 影片，叫做《每一個字》，

where I edited down popular films

我把熱門電影拿來編輯，

to only the words spoken by people of color,

縮減成由有色人種說出的幾個字，

as a way to empirically and accessibly talk about the issue of representation

這是種憑經驗且可以獲得的方式，

目的是在談好萊塢的人種比例問題。

in Hollywood.

Then, later, as transphobic bathroom bill

後來，在跨性別恐懼的廁所法案

started gaining media attention around the United States,

開始得到美國媒體的注意力，

I hosted and produced an interview series

我主持並製作了一系列的訪談，

called "Sitting in Bathrooms with Trans People"

叫做《和變性人坐在廁所裡》，

where I did exactly that.

在節目中我真的這麼做。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And then --

接著──

Sure, I'll take applause.

當然，我接受掌聲。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Thank you.

謝謝。

And then, are you familiar with those unboxing videos on YouTube

接著，你們熟不熟悉在 YouTube 上的那些開箱影片，

where YouTubers open up the latest electronic gadgets?

使用者會拆封他們買來的 最新電子小玩意兒？

Great, so I satirized those in a weekly series,

好極了，所以我用 每週一集的節目來諷刺那些影片，

where instead I unboxed intangible ideologies

在節目中，我針對無形的 意識型態做「閉箱」，

like police brutality, masculinity and the mistreatment of Native Americans.

比如警察行兇、男子氣概， 以及對美國原住民的不當對待。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

My work --

我的作品──

Thanks.

謝謝。

One person applauding, God bless.

有一個人鼓掌，上帝保祐。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Mom, hi.

老媽，嗨。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

So, my work became popular.

所以，我的作品變熱門了。

Very popular.

非常熱門。

I got millions of views, a ton of great press

我的點閱率上百萬， 一大堆好的新聞輿論，

and a slew of new followers.

還有許多新的粉絲。

But the flip side of success on the internet

但在網路上，成功的另一面，

is internet hate.

就是網路仇恨。

I was called everything.

我得到各種稱號。

From "beta" to "snowflake" and, of course, the ever-popular "cuck."

從「β」到「雪花」，當然， 還有最熱門的「綠帽」。

Don't worry, I will break these terms down for you.

別擔心，我會為各位解說這些詞。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

So, "beta," for those of you unfamiliar,

所以，「β」，如果你不熟悉，

is shorthand online lingo for "beta male."

是網路行話「β男（沒種男）」的簡稱。

But let's be real, I wear pearl earrings

但讓我們務實點，我戴珍珠耳環，

and my fashion aesthetic is rich-white-woman-running-errands,

我的時尚美感是有錢白人女性跑腿，

so I'm not angling to be an alpha.

所以我沒有想走 α （王者）路線。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

Doesn't totally work.

想當也當不了。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Now, "snowflake" is a put-down for people who are sensitive

「雪花」是個貶詞，

用在敏感且相信自己 獨一無二的人身上，

and believe themselves to be unique,

and I'm a millennial and an only child, so, duh!

而我是千禧世代， 又是獨子，所以，咄！

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

But my favorite, favorite, favorite is "cuck."

但我最愛最愛最愛的就是「綠帽」。

It's a slur, short for "cuckold,"

它是種侮辱，妻子不貞的意思，

for men who have been cheated on by their wives.

指的是被妻子戴綠帽的男人。

But friends, I am so gay,

但朋友們，我這麼同性戀，

that if I had a wife, I would encourage her to cheat on me.

如果我有個妻子， 我會鼓勵她對我不貞。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Thank you.

謝謝。

Let's take a look at some of this negativity in action.

讓我們來看看一些負面的實例。

Sometimes it's direct.

有時候，是很直接的。

Like Marcos, who wrote,

像馬可，他寫：

"You're everything I hate in a human being."

「你具有一切我痛恨的人類特質。」

Thank you, Marcos.

謝謝你，馬可。

Others are more concise.

其他人比較簡明。

Like Donovan, who wrote, "gaywad fagggggg."

比如唐納文，他寫： 「同性戀，娘炮~~~」

Now, I do need to point out, Donovan is not wrong, OK?

我必須要指出， 唐納文並沒有錯。好嗎？

In fact, he's right on both counts, so credit where credit is due.

他兩點都說對了， 對該讚賞的人要加以稱許。

Thank you, Donovan.

謝謝你，唐納文。

Others write to me with questions, like Brian, who asked,

其他人會寫問題給我， 像布萊恩，他問：

"Were you born a bitch or did you just learn to be one over time?"

「你天生就是個賤人， 或是你是隨時間學來的？」

But my favorite thing about this

對這一則，我最喜歡的部分是，

is that once Brian was done typing, his finger must have slipped

布萊恩打完字之後， 一定是手指滑了一下，

because then he sent me the thumbs-up emoji.

因為他發了一個「讚」符號給我。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

So, babe, thumbs up to you, too.

所以，寶貝，也給你一個讚。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

It's fun to talk about these messages now.

現在談這些訊息是很有趣。

Right?

對嗎？

And it's cathartic to laugh at them.

笑笑它們有宣泄作用的。

But I can tell you that it really does not feel good to receive them.

但我可以告訴各位， 收到的時候感覺並不好。

At first, I would screenshot their comments

一開始，我會把 他們的訊息截圖下來，

and make fun of their typos,

嘲笑他們打錯的字，

but this soon felt elitist and ultimately unhelpful.

但這做法很快就像自我感覺良好， 最終就變得沒幫助了。

So over time, I developed an unexpected coping mechanism.

所以，隨時間過去，我想出了 一種未預期的因應機制。

Because most of these messages I received were through social media,

因為我收到的這些訊息， 大多來自社交媒體，

I could often click on the profile picture of the person who sent them

我通常可以點選發訊息的人 去看他們的資料，

and learn everything about them.

去了解他們的一切。

I could see pictures they were tagged in,

我可以看見有標註他們的照片、

posts they'd written, memes they'd shared,

他們發的文、他們分享的網路模因，

and somehow, seeing that it was a human on the other side of the screen

不知怎麼的，知道 螢幕的另一端也是一個人類，

made me feel a little better.

會讓我感覺好一點。

Not to justify what they wrote, right?

這並不能將他們 寫的訊息正當化，對吧？

But just to provide context.

但能提供情境。

Still, that didn't feel like enough.

不過，那樣我仍然覺得不夠。

So, I called some of them --

所以，我打電話給其中一些人──

only the ones I felt safe talking to --

前提是我覺得跟他們 談話是安全的──

with a simple opening question:

我開場用的是一個簡單的問題：

"Why did you write that?"

「你為什麼要這樣寫？」

The first person I spoke to was Josh.

我交談的第一個對象是喬許。

He had written to tell me that I was a moron,

他寫訊息來告訴我，說我是白痴，

I was a reason this country was dividing itself,

說我是這個國家分裂的原因，

and he added at the end that being gay was a sin.

他最後還補上一句，同性戀是原罪。

I was so nervous for our first conversation.

對我們的第一次交談，我好緊張。

This wasn't a comments section.

這並不是留言。

So I couldn't use tools like muting or blocking.

所以我無法使用工具， 像是靜音或是封鎖。

Of course, I guess, I could have hung up on him.

當然，我想我可以掛斷通話。

But I didn't want to.

但我不想這麼做。

Because I liked talking to him.

因為我想要和他談談。

Because I liked him.

因為我喜歡他。

Here's a clip of one of our conversations.

這是我們其中一次交談的片段。

(Audio) Dylan Marron: Josh, you said

（語音）狄倫馬里昂：喬許，你說

you're about to graduate high school, right?

你就要從高中畢業了，對吧？

Josh: Mmm-hmm.

喬許：嗯哼。

DM: How is high school for you?

狄：你覺得高中如何？

Josh: Am I allowed to use the H-E-double-hockey-stick word?

喬許：我能使用「地獄」 這詞來形容嗎？

DM: Oh, yeah. You're allowed to.

狄：喔，可以，你可以用。

Josh: It was hell.

喬：高中和地獄一樣。

DM: Really?

狄：真的？

Josh: And it's still hell right now, even though it's only two weeks left.

喬：現在還是地獄， 雖然只剩下兩週。

I'm a little bit bigger -- I don't like to use the word "fat,"

我比較大──我不想用「胖」這個字，

but I am a little bit bigger than a lot of my classmates

但我比我的同學都大一點，

and they seem to judge me before they even got to know me.

他們似乎會在了解我之前就評斷我。

DM: That's awful.

狄：那好糟。

I mean, I also just want to let you know, Josh,

我的意思是， 我只想讓你知道，喬許，

I was bullied in high school, too.

我在高中也被霸凌過。

So did our common ground of being bullied in high school

所以，我們都在高中被霸凌的共通點

erase what he wrote me?

能抹除他寫給我的訊息嗎？

No.

不能。

And did our single phone conversation

我們通過電話做一次交談，

radically heal a politically divided country

能徹底治癒一個 在政治上分裂的國家，

and cure systemic injustice?

並治好體制上的不公正嗎？

No, absolutely not, right?

不能，絕對不能，是吧？

But did our conversation humanize us to each other

但我們的交談是否比大頭照和貼文

more than profile pictures and posts ever could?

更讓我們覺得彼此其實都是人？

Absolutely.

絕對是。

I didn't stop there.

我並沒有就這樣停下來。

Because some of the hate I received was from "my side."

因為我收到的仇恨中， 有些是來自「我這一方」的。

So when Matthew, a queer liberal artist like me

當馬修，像我一樣的 酷兒自由派藝術家，

publicly wrote that I represented some of the worst aspects of liberalism,

公開寫說我代表的是 自由主義最糟的面向，

I wanted to ask him this.

我想要問他這件事。

DM: You tagged me in this post.

狄：你在這篇文章中標註了我。

Did you want me to see it?

你是想要我讀它嗎？

Matthew (Laughing): I honestly didn't think that you would.

馬修（笑聲）：老實說， 我不覺得你會來看。

DM: Have you ever been publicly dragged?

狄：你可曾被公開羞辱過嗎？

Matthew: I have been.

馬：有的。

And I just said, "No, I don't care."

我只會說：「不，我不在乎。」

DM: And did you not care?

狄：你不在乎嗎？

Matthew: But it was hard.

馬：但蠻艱難的。

DM: Did you not care?

狄：你不在乎嗎？

Matthew: Oh, I cared, yes.

馬：喔，我在乎，是的。

DM: At the end of these conversations,

狄：在這類對談的最後，

there's often a moment of reflection.

通常都會有反省的時刻。

A reconsideration.

做些重新考量。

And that's exactly what happened

後來這也的確發生了，

at the end of my call with a guy named Doug

就發生在我和道格通話的最後，

who had written that I was a talentless propaganda hack.

道格是寫說我是 沒才華的三流宣傳記者。

(Audio) Did the conversation we just had --

（語音）我們剛剛的這段談話──

does it, like, make you feel differently about how you write online?

它是否讓你對於在網路上 要如何發言有不同的感受？

Doug: Yeah! You know, when I said this to you,

道：是啊！當我對你說這些話，

when I said you were a "talentless hack,"

當我說你是「沒才華的三流記者」，

I had never conversed with you in my life, really.

我從來沒有和你真正交談過。

I didn't really know anything really about you.

我其實對你完全一無所知。

And I think that a lot of times,

我想，很多時候，

that's what the comment sections really are,

留言就是這樣子的，

it's really a way to get your anger at the world out

它是一種把你對世界的 不滿發洩出來的方式，

on random profiles of strangers, pretty much.

對隨機的陌生人發洩， 大致上是這樣。

DM (Laughing): Yeah, right.

狄（笑聲）：是啊，對的。

Doug: But it definitely has made me rethink

道：但這的確讓我重新思考，

the way that I interact with people online.

思考我和大家在線上互動的方式。

DM: So I've collected these conversations and many others

狄：所以，我收集了這些對談， 還有許多其他的，

for my podcast "Conversations with People Who Hate Me."

給我的播客節目 《和恨我的人對談》使用。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Before I started this project,

在我開始這項計畫之前，

I thought that the real way to bring about change

我以為，要帶來改變的真正方式，

was to shut down opposing viewpoints

是要讓相反的觀點都閉嘴，

through epically worded video essays and comments and posts,

通過用史詩般措辭的視頻、 文章、評論和帖子，

but I soon learned those were only cheered on

但我很快學到，那樣做只會取悅

by the people who already agreed with me.

本來就已經認同我的人。

Sometimes -- bless you.

有時──祝福你。

Sometimes, the most subversive thing you could do --

有時，你所能做的最顛覆的事──

yeah, clap for him.

是啊，為他拍手。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Sometimes, the most subversive thing you could do

有時，你所能做的最顛覆的事，

was to actually speak with the people you disagreed with,

就是真的去和你不認同的人交談，

and not simply at them.

而不是僅僅去反駁他們。

Now in every one of my calls,

在我的每一次通話中，

I always ask my guests to tell me about themselves.

我總是請來賓告訴我他們自己的事。

And it's their answer to this question that allows me to empathize with them.

當他們開始回答這個問題時， 我就能夠同理他們。

And empathy, it turns out,

結果發現，同理心，

is a key ingredient in getting these conversations off the ground,

就是讓這些對談能夠 順利進行的關鍵元素，

but it can feel very vulnerable

但去同情你非常不同意的人，

to be empathizing with someone you profoundly disagree with.

感覺起來是很脆弱的。

So I established a helpful mantra for myself.

所以我為自己打造一句有助的真言：

Empathy is not endorsement.

「同理並不代表認可」。

Empathizing with someone you profoundly disagree with

同理你非常不同意的人，

does not suddenly compromise your own deeply held beliefs

並不是突然妥協你自己深刻的信念，

改為認可他們。

and endorse theirs.

Empathizing with someone who, for example, believes that being gay is a sin

比如，同理一個 相信同性戀是原罪的人，

doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to drop everything,

並不表示我突然就會拋下一切，

pack my bags and grab my one-way ticket to hell, right?

打包東西，拿著通往地獄的 單程票準備出發，對吧？

It just means that I'm acknowledging

那只意味著，我承認

the humanity of someone who was raised to think very differently from me.

和我有非常不同想法的人也是人。

I also want to be super clear about something.

我也想要把一件事澄清清楚。

This is not a prescription for activism.

這並不是治療激進主義的處方。

I understand that some people don't feel safe

我了解有些人覺得和誹謗他們的人

talking to their detractors

談話是不安全的，

and others feel so marginalized

其他人則覺得被邊緣化，

that they justifiably don't feel that they have any empathy to give.

他們有正當理由可以認為 他們不用同理別人。

I totally get that.

我完全了解這心情。

This is just what I feel well-suited to do.

這做法只是我個人覺得很適合做的。

You know, I've reached out to a lot of people for this podcast.

我為了這個播客節目接觸了很多人。

And some have politely declined,

有些人很禮貌地拒絕了，

others have read my message and ignored it,

其他人對我的訊息則是已讀不回，

some have blocked me automatically when I sent the invitation

有些人收到我的邀請時 就自動把我封鎖，

and one guy actually agreed to do it

還有一個人，他同意要交談，

and then, five minutes into the call,

在通話的五分鐘之後，

hung up on me.

就把我掛斷了。

I'm also aware that this talk will appear on the internet.

我也知道，這場演說 會被放在網路上。

And with the internet comes comment sections,

而網路就會有留言功能，

and with comment sections inevitably comes hate.

有留言功能，就免不了有仇恨。

So as you are watching this talk,

所以，如果你在看這場演說，

you can feel free to call me whatever you'd like.

你想要怎麼說我都沒關係。

You can call me a "gaywad," a "snowflake," a "cuck," a "beta,"

你可以叫我「同性戀」、 「雪花」、「綠帽」、「β」，

or "everything wrong with liberalism."

或「自由主義所有不好的一切」。

But just know that if you do, I may ask you to talk.

但要知道，如果你這麼做， 我可能會邀請你與我交談。

And if you refuse or block me automatically

如果你拒絕或是自動把我封鎖，

or agree and hang up on me,

或是同意之後又把我掛斷，

then maybe, babe, the snowflake is you.

那麼，也許，寶貝，你才是雪花。

Thank you so much.

非常謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

(Cheering)

（歡呼）

(Applause)

（掌聲）