How to seek truth in the era of fake news | Christiane Amanpour

Translator: Vera Vasiljevic Reviewer: Nika Kotnik

Chris Anderson: Christiane, great to have you here.

Christiane, dobrošla pri nas.

So you've had this amazing viewpoint,

Imaš ta neverjeten pogled na zadeve

and perhaps it's fair to say that in the last few years,

in verjetno lahko rečem, da si v zadnjih nekaj letih

there have been some alarming developments that you're seeing.

opazila skrb vzbujajoč razvoj dogodkov.

What's alarmed you most?

Kaj te najbolj vznemirja?

Christiane Amanpour: Well, just listening to the earlier speakers,

Samo poslušanje prejšnjih govornikov --

I can frame it in what they've been saying:

lahko strnim njihove besede:

climate change, for instance -- cities, the threat to our environment

podnebne spremembe denimo, mesta, grožnja našemu okolju

and our lives.

in našim življenjem.

It basically also boils down to understanding the truth

Načeloma se vse skupaj lahko strne v razumevanje resnice

and to be able to get to the truth of what we're talking about

in sposobnost priti do resnice o zadevi, o kateri govorimo,

in order to really be able to solve it.

da bi lahko resnično našli rešitev.

So if 99.9 percent of the science on climate

Če je 99,9 % znanja o podnebju empirične narave,

is empirical, scientific evidence,

podprto z znanstvenimi dokazi,

but it's competing almost equally with a handful of deniers,

vendar temu v skoraj isti meri nasprotuje peščica dvomljivcev,

that is not the truth;

to ni prava resnica.

that is the epitome of fake news.

To je najboljši primer lažne novice.

And so for me, the last few years -- certainly this last year --

Zame se je predstava o lažnih novicah kristalizirala v zadnjih nekaj letih,

has crystallized the notion of fake news in a way that's truly alarming

predvsem to zadnje leto, vendar na skrb vzbujajoč način,

and not just some slogan to be thrown around.

ne zgolj kot vseprisoten slogan.

Because when you can't distinguish between the truth and fake news,

Namreč ko ne moremo razlikovati med resnico in lažnimi novicami,

you have a very much more difficult time trying to solve

je bistveno težje iskati rešitve za nekatere velike izzive,

some of the great issues that we face.

s katerimi se soočamo.

CA: Well, you've been involved in this question of,

Že dolgo se ukvarjate z vprašanji,

what is balance, what is truth, what is impartiality,

kaj je ravnovesje, kaj je resnica, kaj pomeni nepristranskost.

for a long time.

You were on the front lines reporting the Balkan Wars 25 years ago.

Pred 25 leti ste iz prvih bojnih vrst poročali o vojni na Balkanu

And back then, you famously said,

in takrat ste slavno dejali,

by calling out human right abuses,

sklicujoč se na kršenje človekovih pravic,

you said, "Look, there are some situations one simply cannot be neutral about,

da obstajajo situacije, v katerih je nemogoče biti nepristranski.

because when you're neutral,

Namreč če si nepristranski,

you are an accomplice."

postaneš sokrivec.

So, do you feel that today's journalists aren't heeding that advice

Se ti zdi, da današnji novinarji ne upoštevajo tega nasveta

about balance?

o ravnovesju?

CA: Well, look, I think for journalists, objectivity is the golden rule.

Mislim, da je nepristranskost zlato pravilo za novinarje.

But I think sometimes we don't understand what objectivity means.

Vendar se mi zdi, da včasih ne razumemo, kaj pomeni nepristranskost.

And I actually learned this very, very young in my career,

Jaz sem se tega naučila zelo, zelo zgodaj v svoji karieri,

which was during the Balkan Wars.

ravno v času poročanja z Balkana.

I was young then.

Takrat sem bila mlada.

It was about 25 years ago.

To je bilo pred približno 25 leti.

And what we faced was the wholesale violation, not just of human rights,

Soočali smo se s kršitvami na celi črti, ne samo s kršenjem človekovih pravic,

but all the way to ethnic cleansing and genocide,

temveč tudi z etničnim čiščenjem in genocidom.

and that has been adjudicated in the highest war crimes court

O tem so sodili na najvišjih sodiščih za vojne zločine na svetu.

in the world.

So, we know what we were seeing.

Torej vemo, kaj smo videli.

Trying to tell the world what we were seeing

Ko smo svetu poskušali prenesti, kaj smo videli,

brought us accusations of bias,

smo postali tarča kritik o pristranskosti,

of siding with one side,

obtožili so nas, da smo se postavili na eno stran,

of not seeing the whole side,

da ne vidimo celotne slike

and just, you know, trying to tell one story.

in da poskušamo predstaviti samo eno plat zgodbe.

I particularly and personally was accused of siding with,

Meni osebno so očitali, da sem stopila na stran

for instance, the citizens of Sarajevo --

prebivalcev Sarajeva, "na stran Muslimanov",

"siding with the Muslims,"

because they were the minority who were being attacked

ker so bili manjšina, ki je bila napadena

by Christians on the Serb side

s strani krsčanskih Srbov v tej regiji.

in this area.

Bila sem v skrbeh.

And it worried me.

It worried me that I was being accused of this.

Te kritike so me vznemirjale.

I thought maybe I was wrong,

Mislila sem, da mogoče nimam prav,

maybe I'd forgotten what objectivity was.

da sem pozabila pravi pomen objektivnosti.

But then I started to understand that what people wanted

Sčasoma pa sem dojela, da so ljudje želeli zgolj eno --

was actually not to do anything --

da se ne naredi nič.

not to step in,

Da se nihče ne vmešava,

not to change the situation,

da nihče ne spreminja situacije,

not to find a solution.

da se ne najde rešitev.

And so, their fake news at that time,

Tako so njihove takratne lažne novice,

their lie at that time --

njihova takratna laž --

including our government's, our democratically elected government's,

vključno z lažmi naše takratne vlade, demokratično izvoljene vlade,

with values and principles of human rights --

ki podpira vrednote in principe človekovih pravic --

their lie was to say that all sides are equally guilty,

njihova laž je bila, da obe strani nosita enako breme krivde,

that this has been centuries of ethnic hatred,

da gre za stoletja etničnega sovraštva,

whereas we knew that wasn't true,

čeprav smo vedeli, da to ne drži.

that one side had decided to kill, slaughter and ethnically cleanse

Ena stran se je odločila, da bo ubijala, morila in etnično čistila

another side.

drugo stran.

So that is where, for me,

To je zame bil trenutek, ko sem dojela,

I understood that objectivity means giving all sides an equal hearing

da nepristranskost pomeni enakovredno poslušati vse plati zgodbe

and talking to all sides,

in komunicirati z vsemi stranmi,

but not treating all sides equally,

ne pa obravnavnati vse strani enako

not creating a forced moral equivalence or a factual equivalence.

ter ustvarjati prisiljeno moralno enakopravnost ali enakopravnost dejstev.

And when you come up against that crisis point

Če pri soočanju s tem kriznim trenutkom v situacijah,

in situations of grave violations of international and humanitarian law,

v katerih se hudo kršita mednarodno in humanitarno pravo,

if you don't understand what you're seeing,

če ne razumeš, kar vidiš,

if you don't understand the truth

če ne dojameš resnice

and if you get trapped in the fake news paradigm,

in se ujameš v vzorec lažnih novic,

then you are an accomplice.

postaneš sokrivec.

And I refuse to be an accomplice to genocide.

In jaz ne želim nositi breme krivde za genocid.

(Applause)

(Aplavz)

CH: So there have always been these propaganda battles,

Že od nekdaj se bijejo propagandne bitke,

and you were courageous in taking the stand you took back then.

v katerih si nastopila pogumno kot v tistih časih.

Today, there's a whole new way, though,

Vendar gre dandanes za povsem nov način

in which news seems to be becoming fake.

spreminjanja novic v lažne.

How would you characterize that?

Kako bi ga opisala?

CA: Well, look -- I am really alarmed.

Poglej, resnično sem zaskrbljena.

And everywhere I look,

Kamorkoli pogledam smo bombardirani z lažnimi novicami.

you know, we're buffeted by it.

Obviously, when the leader of the free world,

Ko te voditelj svobodnega sveta,

when the most powerful person in the entire world,

najvplivnejša oseba na celem svetu,

which is the president of the United States --

predsednik Združenih držav Amerike --

this is the most important, most powerful country in the whole world,

to je najpomembnejša in najvplivnejša država na celem svetu

economically, militarily, politically in every which way --

v gospodarskem, vojaškem in političnem smislu,

and it seeks to, obviously, promote its values and power around the world.

ki očitno poskuša promovirati svoje vrednote in moč po svetu.

So we journalists, who only seek the truth --

Mi, novinarji, samo iščemo resnico --

I mean, that is our mission --

to je naša misija --

we go around the world looking for the truth

hodimo po svetu in iščemo resnico,

in order to be everybody's eyes and ears,

želimo biti oči in ušesa za vse ljudi,

people who can't go out in various parts of the world

za ljudi iz različnih delov sveta, ki ne morejo naokrog,

to figure out what's going on about things that are vitally important

da bi izvedeli več o zadevah, ki so bistvenega pomena

to everybody's health and security.

za zdravje in varnost vseh ljudi.

So when you have a major world leader accusing you of fake news,

Torej, ko te mogočen svetovni voditelj obtoži širjenja lažnih novic,

it has an exponential ripple effect.

se sproži neustavljiva verižna reakcija.

And what it does is, it starts to chip away

Začne se krhati

at not just our credibility,

ne samo verodostojnost novinarjev,

but at people's minds --

temveč tudi človeški razum.

people who look at us, and maybe they're thinking,

Razum ljudi, ki nas gledajo in si morda mislijo:

"Well, if the president of the United States says that,

"No, če je to prišlo iz ust predsednika Združenih držav,

maybe somewhere there's a truth in there."

je v tem mogoče kanček resnice."

CH: Presidents have always been critical of the media --

Predsedniki so že od nekdaj kritični do medijev ...

CA: Not in this way.

Ne na tak način.

CH: So, to what extent --

Torej, v kolikšni meri ...

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

(Applause)

(Aplavz)

CH: I mean, someone a couple years ago looking at the avalanche of information

Nekdo, ki je pred nekaj leti opazoval plaz informacij,

pouring through Twitter and Facebook and so forth,

ki se je vsul na Twitterju, Facebooku in drugih omrežjih,

might have said,

si je morda mislil:

"Look, our democracies are healthier than they've ever been.

"Poglej, naše demokracije so bolj zdrave kot kadarkoli,

There's more news than ever.

še nikoli ni bilo toliko novic.

Of course presidents will say what they'll say,

Predsedniki bodo seveda rekli, kar želijo reči,

but everyone else can say what they will say.

a tudi vsi ostali lahko rečemo, kar želimo reči.

What's not to like? How is there an extra danger?"

Kaj nam pri tem ni všeč? Zakaj nam to predstavlja nevarnost?"

CA: So, I wish that was true.

Želim si, da bi bilo tako.

I wish that the proliferation of platforms upon which we get our information

Želim si, da bi širjenje platform, prek katerih dobimo informacije,

meant that there was a proliferation of truth and transparency

prineslo tudi širjenje resnice in transparentnosti

and depth and accuracy.

in globine in točnosti.

But I think the opposite has happened.

Vendar menim, da se je zgodilo ravno nasprotno.

You know, I'm a little bit of a Luddite,

Veste, v meni se skriva malo ludistke,

I will confess.

priznam.

Even when we started to talk about the information superhighway,

Že ko smo se začeli pogovarjati o informacijski avtocesti,

which was a long time ago,

kar je bilo že dolgo nazaj,

before social media, Twitter and all the rest of it,

pred pojavom družbenih medijev, Twitterja in vseh ostalih,

I was actually really afraid

me je resnično skrbelo,

that that would put people into certain lanes and tunnels

da bo ta razvoj popeljal ljudi na določene poti in v tunele,

and have them just focusing on areas of their own interest

kjer se bodo osredotočili samo na zadeve, ki jih zanimajo,

instead of seeing the broad picture.

namesto da bi dobili celoten vpogled.

And I'm afraid to say that with algorithms, with logarithms,

In bojim se, da so nas algoritmi in logaritmi

with whatever the "-ithms" are

in vsi mogoči "-itmi"

that direct us into all these particular channels of information,

pahnili v vse te določene informacijske kanale.

Zdi se, da se dandanes dogaja prav to.

that seems to be happening right now.

I mean, people have written about this phenomenon.

O tem fenomenu se piše.

People have said that yes, the internet came,

Ljudje so pravili, da je pojav interneta

its promise was to exponentially explode our access to more democracy,

obljubljal vedno večji dostop do demokracije,

more information,

do več informacij,

less bias,

do več objektivnosti,

more varied information.

do več raznolikih informacij.

And, in fact, the opposite has happened.

V resnici pa se je zgodilo prav nasprotno.

And so that, for me, is incredibly dangerous.

In to se mi zdi zelo nevarno.

And again, when you are the president of this country and you say things,

Poleg tega če si predsednik ZDA in izrečeš določene stvari,

it also gives leaders in other undemocratic countries the cover

daješ moč tudi voditeljem drugih, nedemokratičnih držav,

to affront us even worse,

da nas še bolj oskrunijo

and to really whack us -- and their own journalists --

in da resnično dotolčejo tako nas kot njihove lastne novinarje

with this bludgeon of fake news.

s to palico lažnih novic.

CH: To what extent is what happened, though,

V kolikšni meri je to, do česar je prišlo,

in part, just an unintended consequence,

deloma vendarle le nenamerna posledica?

that the traditional media that you worked in

Tradicionalni mediji, v katerih ste delali,

so imeli vlogo zbiranja in posredovanja informacij,

had this curation-mediation role,

where certain norms were observed,

pri čemer so se upoštevale določene norme,

certain stories would be rejected because they weren't credible,

objava določenih zgodb je bila zavrnjena zaradi vprašljive verodostojnosti.

but now that the standard for publication and for amplification

Danes pa je merilo za objavo in odmevnost

is just interest, attention, excitement, click,

zgolj pritegniti zanimanje, pozornost, biti razburljiv, pridobiti klik --

"Did it get clicked on?"

"Že imamo kaj klikov?"

"Send it out there!"

"Objavite to!"

and that's what's -- is that part of what's caused the problem?

Je to pripeljalo do težav?

CA: I think it's a big problem, and we saw this in the election of 2016,

Mislim, da je to velik problem, to smo videli tudi na volitvah leta 2016,

where the idea of "clickbait" was very sexy and very attractive,

ko je bila ideja vabe za klike izredno seksi in privlačna.

and so all these fake news sites and fake news items

Vse te strani z lažnimi novicami in teme lažnih novic

were not just haphazardly and by happenstance being put out there,

se niso pojavile kar tako po naključju.

there's been a whole industry in the creation of fake news

Za ustvarjanjem lažnih novic stoji cela industrija

in parts of Eastern Europe, wherever,

v delih Vzhodne Evrope, kjerkoli,

and you know, it's planted in real space and in cyberspace.

in zasidrana je tako v realnem svetu kot na spletu.

So I think that, also,

Mislim torej, da so temu doprinesle tudi tehnološke zmožnosti,

the ability of our technology to proliferate this stuff

ki omogočajo širjenje vseh teh zadev s skoraj svetlobno hitrostjo.

at the speed of sound or light, just about --

we've never faced that before.

S tem se soočamo prvič.

And we've never faced such a massive amount of information

In prvič se soočamo tudi s tako ogromno količino informacij,

which is not curated

ki jih ne zbirajo tisti,

by those whose profession leads them to abide by the truth,

ki jih poklic vodi k zavezanosti resnici,

to fact-check

preverjanju dejstev,

and to maintain a code of conduct and a code of professional ethics.

in ohranjanju kodeksa ravnanja in kodeksa poklicne etike.

CH: Many people here may know people who work at Facebook

Veliko ljudi iz publike verjetno pozna nekoga, ki dela za Facebook,

or Twitter and Google and so on.

Twitter, Google ali druge platforme.

They all seem like great people with good intention --

Vsi so videti kot čudoviti ljudje z dobrimi nameni --

let's assume that.

recimo, da je temu tako.

If you could speak with the leaders of those companies,

Če bi imeli možnost za pogovor z vodji teh podjetij,

what would you say to them?

kaj bi jim rekli?

CA: Well, you know what --

Veste kaj,

I'm sure they are incredibly well-intentioned,

verjamem, da so zelo dobronamerni

and they certainly developed an unbelievable, game-changing system,

in da seveda razvijajo neverjeten sistem, ki spreminja svet

where everybody's connected on this thing called Facebook.

in v katerem so vsi povezani preko te zadeve, imenovane Facebook.

And they've created a massive economy for themselves

Zase so ustvarili ogromen posel in neverjetne zaslužke.

and an amazing amount of income.

I would just say,

Rekla bi jim samo, naj se prebudijo, pogledajo zadevi v oči

"Guys, you know, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee

and look at what's happening to us right now."

in vidijo, kaj se nam ravnokar dogaja.

Mark Zuckerberg wants to create a global community.

Mark Zuckerberg želi ustvariti globalno skupnost.

I want to know: What is that global community going to look like?

Zanima me, kakšna bo ta globalna skupnost,

I want to know where the codes of conduct actually are.

kje je kodeks ravnanja.

Mark Zuckerberg said --

Mark Zuckerberg je dejal --

and I don't blame him, he probably believed this --

in ne obsojam ga za to, verjetno je verjel v to --

that it was crazy to think

da je noro misliti,

that the Russians or anybody else could be tinkering and messing around

da bi Rusi ali kdorkoli drug lahko stikal in delal neumnosti na platformi.

with this avenue.

And what have we just learned in the last few weeks?

In kaj smo se naučili v zadnjih nekaj tednih?

That, actually, there has been a major problem in that regard,

Da je zadeva pravzaprav zelo problematična

and now they're having to investigate it and figure it out.

in da jo morajo zdaj raziskati ter ugotoviti, kaj se dogaja.

Yes, they're trying to do what they can now

Zdaj vsekakor poskušajo narediti vse,

to prevent the rise of fake news,

da bi preprečili širjenje lažnih novic,

but, you know,

vendar je vse skupaj dolgo časa potekalo brez nadzora.

it went pretty unrestricted for a long, long time.

So I guess I would say, you know,

Mislim, da bi jim rekla,

you guys are brilliant at technology;

da so tehnološko izredno podkovani,

let's figure out another algorithm.

najdimo drug algoritem.

Can we not?

To ni možno?

CH: An algorithm that includes journalistic investigation --

Algoritem, ki vključuje novinarsko raziskovanje ...

CA: I don't really know how they do it, but somehow, you know --

Ne vem, kako to delajo, ampak naj nekako počistijo to sranje.

filter out the crap!

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

And not just the unintentional --

In ne zgolj nenamerne laži,

(Applause)

(Aplavz)

but the deliberate lies that are planted

temveč namerne laži, ki so jih vcepili ljudje,

by people who've been doing this as a matter of warfare

ki jih že desetletja uporabljajo kot orožje za vojskovanje.

for decades.

The Soviets, the Russians --

Sovjeti, Rusi --

they are the masters of war by other means, of hybrid warfare.

oni so mojstri vojskovanja z različnimi sredstvi,

And this is a --

mojstri hibridnega vojskovanja.

this is what they've decided to do.

Odločili so se za ta način.

It worked in the United States,

V Združenih državah so bili uspešni,

it didn't work in France,

v Franciji ne, prav tako ne v Nemčiji.

it hasn't worked in Germany.

During the elections there, where they've tried to interfere,

Med volitvami v Franciji in Nemčiji, v katere so se Rusi poskušali vmešati,

the president of France right now, Emmanuel Macron,

se jim je francoski predsednik Emmanuel Macron

took a very tough stand and confronted it head on,

odločno in neposredno zoperstavil,

as did Angela Merkel.

prav tako Angela Merkel.

CH: There's some hope to be had from some of this, isn't there?

Zdi se, da obstaja kanček upanja, kajne?

That the world learns.

Da se svet uči.

We get fooled once,

Enkrat so nas pretentali,

maybe we get fooled again,

mogoče jim uspe še enkrat, a tretjič zagotovo ne.

but maybe not the third time.

Je tako?

Is that true?

CA: I mean, let's hope.

Upajmo.

But I think in this regard that so much of it is also about technology,

Vendar mislim, da je ta zadeva močno povezana s tehnologijo.

that the technology has to also be given some kind of moral compass.

Tudi tehnologija bi morala dobiti nekakšen moralni kompas.

I know I'm talking nonsense, but you know what I mean.

Vem, da zveni nesmiselno, ampak veste, kaj hočem povedati.

CH: We need a filter-the-crap algorithm with a moral compass --

Potrebujemo algoritem za odstranjevanje sranja in moralni kompas.

CA: There you go.

Točno tako.

CH: I think that's good.

Mislim, da je to dobro.

CA: No -- "moral technology."

Ne, moralno tehnologijo potrebujemo.

We all have moral compasses -- moral technology.

Moralne kompase imamo vsi, potrebujemo moralno tehnologijo.

CH: I think that's a great challenge. CA: You know what I mean.

Mislim, da gre za velik izziv. Saj veste, kaj mislim.

CH: Talk just a minute about leadership.

Povejte nam kaj o voditeljih.

You've had a chance to speak with so many people across the world.

Imeli ste priložnost govoriti s številnimi ljudmi s celega sveta.

I think for some of us --

Mislim, da smo nekateri --

I speak for myself, I don't know if others feel this --

govorim v svojem imenu, ne vem, če so vsi istega mnenja --

there's kind of been a disappointment of:

nekako smo razočarani.

Where are the leaders?

Kje so voditelji?

So many of us have been disappointed --

Mnogi smo razočarani.

Aung San Suu Kyi, what's happened recently,

Aung San Suu Kyi in nedavni dogodki --

it's like, "No! Another one bites the dust."

pomislil sem: "Ne! Spet je nekomu spodletelo!"

You know, it's heartbreaking.

Tako žalostno je.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Who have you met

Koga si spoznala,

who you have been impressed by, inspired by?

kdo te je navdušil, inspiriral?

CA: Well, you talk about the world in crisis,

No, omenjaš svet v krizi,

which is absolutely true,

kar popolnoma drži,

and those of us who spend our whole lives immersed in this crisis --

in mi, ki se celo življenje poglabljamo v to krizo,

I mean, we're all on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

smo na robu živčnega zloma.

So it's pretty stressful right now.

Trenutno je precej stresno.

And you're right --

In prav imaš --

there is this perceived and actual vacuum of leadership,

obstaja to zaznano in dejansko pomanjkanje voditeljev.

and it's not me saying it, I ask all these --

To ne pravim samo jaz. S komerkoli se pogovarjam,

whoever I'm talking to, I ask about leadership.

jih vprašam o voditeljih.

I was speaking to the outgoing president of Liberia today,

Danes sem se pogovarjala s predsednico Liberije v odhodu,

[Ellen Johnson Sirleaf,]

Ellen Johnson Sirleaf,

who --

ki ...

(Applause)

(Aplavz)

in three weeks' time,

ki bo čez tri tedne postala

will be one of the very rare heads of an African country

ena od zelo redkih vodij afriške države, ki dejansko upošteva ustavo

who actually abides by the constitution

and gives up power after her prescribed term.

in odhaja s položaja po preteku določenega mandata.

She has said she wants to do that as a lesson.

Dejala je, da želi s tem dati lekcijo.

But when I asked her about leadership,

A ko sem ji postavila vprašanje o voditeljih

and I gave a quick-fire round of certain names,

in ji na hitro naštela nekaj imen,

I presented her with the name of the new French president,

izpostavila sem francoskega predsednika Emmanuela Macrona,

Emmanuel Macron.

And she said --

je dejala --

I said, "So what do you think when I say his name?"

jaz sem vprašala: "Kaj ti pride na misel, ko izgovorim njegovo ime?"

And she said,

Dejala je, da se razvija v potencialnega voditelja,

"Shaping up potentially to be

a leader to fill our current leadership vacuum."

ki bi zapolnil trenutno pomanjkanje voditeljev.

I thought that was really interesting.

To se mi je zdelo zelo zanimivo.

Yesterday, I happened to have an interview with him.

Včeraj sem imela intervju z njim.

I'm very proud to say,

Ponosno lahko rečem, da je to bil njegov prvi mednarodni intervju.

I got his first international interview. It was great. It was yesterday.

Bilo je odlično, ravno včeraj.

And I was really impressed.

In zelo me je navdušil.

I don't know whether I should be saying that in an open forum,

Ne vem, ali naj takole javno govorim o tem,

ampak bila sem resnično navdušena.

but I was really impressed.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

And it could be just because it was his first interview,

To je morda zato, ker je to bil njegov prvi intervju.

but -- I asked questions, and you know what?

Postavljala sem mu vprašanja in veste kaj --

He answered them!

dejansko je odgovarjal na njih!

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

(Applause)

(Aplavz)

There was no spin,

Ni bilo olepševanja,

there was no wiggle and waggle,

ni bilo omahovanja,

there was no spend-five-minutes- to-come-back-to-the-point.

nisva zapravljala minut za vračanje na temo,

I didn't have to keep interrupting,

ni mi ga bilo treba prekinjati,

which I've become rather renowned for doing,

po čemer sem sčasoma postala znana,

because I want people to answer the question.

saj želim, da ljudje odgovarjajo na vprašanja.

And he answered me,

In on je odgovarjal in bilo je zelo zanimivo.

and it was pretty interesting.

And he said --

Rekel je ...

CH: Tell me what he said.

Povej mi, kaj je rekel.

CA: No, no, you go ahead.

Ne, ne, kar nadaljuj.

CH: You're the interrupter, I'm the listener.

Ti si ta, ki prekinja, jaz pa tisti, ki posluša.

CA: No, no, go ahead.

Ne, ne, nadaljuj.

CH: What'd he say?

Kaj je dejal?

CA: OK. You've talked about nationalism and tribalism here today.

V redu. Danes si govoril o nacionalizmu in tribalizmu.

Vprašala sem ga, kako je imel pogum, da se postavi po robu

I asked him, "How did you have the guts to confront the prevailing winds

of anti-globalization, nationalism, populism

prevladujočim trendom antiglobalizacije, nacionalizma in populizma

when you can see what happened in Brexit,

po dogodkih z Brexitom,

when you could see what happened in the United States

po tem, ko je videl, kaj se dogaja v Združenih državah,

and what might have happened in many European elections

in kaj bi se lahko zgodilo na mnogih evropskih volitvah

at the beginning of 2017?"

v začetku leta 2017.

And he said,

Dejal je:

"For me, nationalism means war.

"Zame nacionalizem pomeni vojno.

We have seen it before,

Temu smo že bili priča.

we have lived through it before on my continent,

To smo že preživeli na mojem kontinentu

and I am very clear about that."

in glede tega sem zelo jasen."

So he was not going to, just for political expediency,

Ni želel torej zgolj zaradi politične primernosti

embrace the, kind of, lowest common denominator

sprejeti nekakšnea najnižjega skupnega imenovalca,

that had been embraced in other political elections.

ki je bil sprejet na drugih političnih volitvah.

And he stood against Marine Le Pen, who is a very dangerous woman.

Po robu se je postavil tudi Marine Le Pen, ki je zelo nevarna ženska.

CH: Last question for you, Christiane.

Zadnje vprašanje zate, Christiane.

Bistvo TED-a so ideje, vredne širjenja.

TED is about ideas worth spreading.

If you could plant one idea into the minds of everyone here,

Če bi lahko v naše glave vcepila eno idejo,

what would that be?

kakšna bi bila?

CA: I would say really be careful where you get your information from;

Bodite resnično pozorni na to, od kod dobite določeno informacijo.

really take responsibility for what you read, listen to and watch;

Prevzemite odgovornost za to, kar berete, poslušate in gledate.

make sure that you go to the trusted brands to get your main information,

Poskrbite, da glavne informacije dobite pri zaupanja vrednih ponudnikih,

no matter whether you have a wide, eclectic intake,

četudi je vaš dotok informacij širok, eklektičen,

really stick with the brand names that you know,

resnično se držite uveljavljenih imen, ki jih poznate.

because in this world right now, at this moment right now,

V današnjem svetu, v tem trenutku,

our crises, our challenges, our problems are so severe,

so naše krize, naši izzivi in naši problemi zelo hudi.

that unless we are all engaged as global citizens

Če se ne angažiramo vsi kot globalni prebivalci,

who appreciate the truth,

ki cenijo resnico,

who understand science, empirical evidence and facts,

ki razumejo znanost, empirične dokaze in dejstva,

then we are just simply going to be wandering along

bomo enostavno tavali -- v potencialno katastrofo.

to a potential catastrophe.

So I would say, the truth,

Rekla bi torej resnica

and then I would come back to Emmanuel Macron

in potem bi se vrnila k Emmanuelu Macronu in govorila o ljubezni.

and talk about love.

I would say that there's not enough love going around.

Mislim, da je v zraku premalo ljubezni.

And I asked him to tell me about love.

Prosila sem ga, naj mi pove kaj o ljubezni.

I said, "You know, your marriage is the subject of global obsession."

Rekla sem: "Veš, tvoj zakon je postal globalna obsesija."

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

"Can you tell me about love?

"Mi lahko poveš kaj o ljubezni, kaj ti pomeni?"

What does it mean to you?"

Še nikoli nisem predsednika ali izvoljenega voditelja vprašala o ljubezni.

I've never asked a president or an elected leader about love.

I thought I'd try it.

Tokrat sem poskusila.

And he said -- you know, he actually answered it.

Dejal je -- dejansko je odgovoril --

And he said, "I love my wife, she is part of me,

da ima rad svojo ženo, da je del njega

we've been together for decades."

in da sta skupaj že desetletja.

But here's where it really counted,

A izjava, ki resnično šteje,

what really stuck with me.

ki me je osupnila, je,

He said,

"It is so important for me to have somebody at home

da mu je izredno pomembno imeti nekoga doma,

who tells me the truth."

ki mu pove resnico.

So you see, I brought it home. It's all about the truth.

Vidite, vrnila sem se na začetek. Vse se vrti okrog resnice.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

CH: So there you go. Truth and love. Ideas worth spreading.

Resnica in ljubezen torej. Ideji, ki ju je vredno širiti.

Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much. That was great.

Christiane Amanpour, najlepša hvala, bilo je odlično.

(Applause)

(Aplavz)

CA: Thank you. CH: That was really lovely.

Hvala vam. Bilo je res lepo.

(Applause)

(Aplavz)

CA: Thank you.

Hvala.