How to seek truth in the era of fake news | Christiane Amanpour

翻译人员: Jack Zhang 校对人员: Chen Zou

Chris Anderson: Christiane, great to have you here.

克里斯·安德森：克莉丝蒂安， 很高兴你今天能来。

你有个很棒的观点，

So you've had this amazing viewpoint,

and perhaps it's fair to say that in the last few years,

也许可以这么说， 在过去的几年间，

there have been some alarming developments that you're seeing.

你目睹了一些令人惊讶的发展。

你最惊讶的是什么？

What's alarmed you most?

Christiane Amanpour: Well, just listening to the earlier speakers,

克莉丝蒂安·阿曼普： 听了前几位讲者的演说，

I can frame it in what they've been saying:

我可以用他们的话来说：

climate change, for instance -- cities, the threat to our environment

气候改变，比如说—— 城市，对我们环境的威胁

and our lives.

以及对我们的生命的威胁。

It basically also boils down to understanding the truth

这基本上是说如果我们想要真正解决它，

and to be able to get to the truth of what we're talking about

我们就要去理解事实，

in order to really be able to solve it.

要能够从我们的 谈话内容中探究出真相。

So if 99.9 percent of the science on climate

因此假如在气候科学上，99.9%的证据

is empirical, scientific evidence,

是实证性的，科学的证据，

but it's competing almost equally with a handful of deniers,

但是仍充斥着等量的反面否认信息，

that is not the truth;

但那不是事实；

that is the epitome of fake news.

那是虚假信息的缩影。

And so for me, the last few years -- certainly this last year --

因此在我看来，过去的几年—— 尤其是去年——

has crystallized the notion of fake news in a way that's truly alarming

正以一种真正令人震惊的方式 将虚假新闻的定义清晰化，

and not just some slogan to be thrown around.

而不仅仅是漫天抛出 一些空洞的标语。

Because when you can't distinguish between the truth and fake news,

因为当你不能区分 事实和虚假新闻的时候，

you have a very much more difficult time trying to solve

你会在尝试去解决 一些我们所面临的重大问题时，

经历更大的困难。

some of the great issues that we face.

CA: Well, you've been involved in this question of,

CA：你参与到一些问题，

what is balance, what is truth, what is impartiality,

例如什么是平衡，什么是真实， 什么是公正，

for a long time.

有很长时间了。

You were on the front lines reporting the Balkan Wars 25 years ago.

25年前你在巴尔干战争的前线做报道。

And back then, you famously said,

那个时候，通过呼吁对人权侵犯的关注，

by calling out human right abuses,

你说了一句很有名的话，

you said, "Look, there are some situations one simply cannot be neutral about,

你说：“看，有一些情况人们 无法对其持中立态度，

because when you're neutral,

因为当你中立的时候，

you are an accomplice."

你便成为帮凶。”

So, do you feel that today's journalists aren't heeding that advice

那么，你觉得如今的记者 没有在留意

那个关于平衡的建议？

about balance?

CA: Well, look, I think for journalists, objectivity is the golden rule.

CA：是这样的， 我觉得身为记者，客观是黄金法则。

But I think sometimes we don't understand what objectivity means.

但是我认为有时候 我们不明白客观意味着什么。

And I actually learned this very, very young in my career,

事实上在我事业的初期， 我就认识到了，

which was during the Balkan Wars.

也就是在巴尔干战争期间。

I was young then.

那是我很年轻。

大约25年前。

It was about 25 years ago.

And what we faced was the wholesale violation, not just of human rights,

我们所面临的是全面的侵犯， 不仅是人权侵犯，

but all the way to ethnic cleansing and genocide,

而是种族清洗和种族灭绝。

and that has been adjudicated in the highest war crimes court

那已经在世界的

in the world.

最高战争犯罪法庭做了裁决。

So, we know what we were seeing.

所以我们了解我们所看到的。

Trying to tell the world what we were seeing

试着告诉全世界 我们所看到的，

brought us accusations of bias,

给我们带来了偏见的指责，

of siding with one side,

比如片面性，

of not seeing the whole side,

没有看到整体，

and just, you know, trying to tell one story.

仅仅是尝试着 去述说一个故事。

I particularly and personally was accused of siding with,

我尤其是被个人地指责站在，

for instance, the citizens of Sarajevo --

比如就像，塞拉耶佛的人们——

"siding with the Muslims,"

"站在穆斯林这一边，"

because they were the minority who were being attacked

因为他们是被塞尔维亚

by Christians on the Serb side

那边的基督徒

in this area.

攻击的少数群体。

And it worried me.

这让我很担心。

It worried me that I was being accused of this.

我担心我因为这个受到指责。

I thought maybe I was wrong,

我想过也许我错了，

也许我忘记了什么是客观。

maybe I'd forgotten what objectivity was.

But then I started to understand that what people wanted

然后我开始明白人们想要的，

was actually not to do anything --

实际上是不采取 任何行动——

not to step in,

不要深入涉及，

not to change the situation,

不要去改变局势，

not to find a solution.

不要去找到解决方法。

And so, their fake news at that time,

如此一来，在那时候的虚假新闻，

那时候人们的谎言——

their lie at that time --

including our government's, our democratically elected government's,

包括我们政府的， 我们民主选举出的政府，

with values and principles of human rights --

有着人权价值观 和原则的政府——

their lie was to say that all sides are equally guilty,

他们的谎言是说 所有的立场都同等地有罪，

that this has been centuries of ethnic hatred,

种族的仇恨延续了数百年，

whereas we knew that wasn't true,

然而我们知道那是不真实的，

that one side had decided to kill, slaughter and ethnically cleanse

即一方决定去杀害 屠杀和种族清洗

another side.

另一方。

So that is where, for me,

对于我来说，那个时候，

I understood that objectivity means giving all sides an equal hearing

我明白了客观意味着 给予所有的立场同等的听证机会，

and talking to all sides,

和所有立场方交谈，

but not treating all sides equally,

而不是同等地对待所有立场，

not creating a forced moral equivalence or a factual equivalence.

不是去创造一个强迫的道德平等性， 或是一个事实的平等性。

当你站在那个危机点的 反对立场，

And when you come up against that crisis point

in situations of grave violations of international and humanitarian law,

站在对国际法和人权法的 严重侵犯的立场的时候，

if you don't understand what you're seeing,

如果你不明白你所看到的，

if you don't understand the truth

如果你不明白事实的真相，

and if you get trapped in the fake news paradigm,

当你陷入在虚假新闻的 模式里面的时候，

then you are an accomplice.

那么你成为了一个同谋。

And I refuse to be an accomplice to genocide.

我拒绝成为种族灭绝的同谋。

(Applause)

（观众掌声）

CH: So there have always been these propaganda battles,

CH: 这种宣传战争的行为总在进行着，

而你在是很勇敢地 站在你选择的立场。

and you were courageous in taking the stand you took back then.

Today, there's a whole new way, though,

然而现今，我们有全新的方式，

in which news seems to be becoming fake.

新闻似乎在变得虚假。

How would you characterize that?

你如何将它们特征化？

CA: 首先——我是非常警觉的。

CA: Well, look -- I am really alarmed.

And everywhere I look,

我所看到的每处，

you know, we're buffeted by it.

都受到了一定的打击。

Obviously, when the leader of the free world,

显然，当自由世界的领导，

when the most powerful person in the entire world,

当整个世界最有力量的人，

which is the president of the United States --

那是美国的总统——

this is the most important, most powerful country in the whole world,

而这是全世界最重要的， 最有力量的国家，

economically, militarily, politically in every which way --

在经济上，军事上，政治上， 在每一方面——

and it seeks to, obviously, promote its values and power around the world.

而且它很显然地在世界范围内 不断推行它的价值观。

So we journalists, who only seek the truth --

那么我们作为记者， 只是寻求真相——

I mean, that is our mission --

我是说，那是我们的使命——

我们在全世界范围内寻找真相，

we go around the world looking for the truth

in order to be everybody's eyes and ears,

以此来成为每个人的 目击者和聆听者，

为那些不能够去到世界不同地方的人，

people who can't go out in various parts of the world

to figure out what's going on about things that are vitally important

去找寻对每个人的健康和安全

极其重要的真相。

to everybody's health and security.

所以当一个重要的世界领导人 指责你制造虚假新闻的时候，

So when you have a major world leader accusing you of fake news,

it has an exponential ripple effect.

这有着巨大的连锁反应。

And what it does is, it starts to chip away

它开始削减，

at not just our credibility,

不仅仅是对我们的信任度，

but at people's minds --

而且还有人们的大脑——

当人们看着我们的时候， 也许他们在想，

people who look at us, and maybe they're thinking,

"Well, if the president of the United States says that,

“如果美国总统那样说了，

maybe somewhere there's a truth in there."

也许某处存在着几分事实。”

CH: Presidents have always been critical of the media --

CH: 总统们总是对 媒体存在批判的——

CA: Not in this way.

CA: 不是以这个方式。

CH: So, to what extent --

CH: 那么到什么程度上——

(Laughter)

（观众笑声）

(Applause)

（观众掌声）

CH: I mean, someone a couple years ago looking at the avalanche of information

CH: 我是说，几年前看着这雪崩般的信息

pouring through Twitter and Facebook and so forth,

涌现在推特和脸书上的时候，

might have said,

人们也许会说，

“看，我们的民主变得前所未有的健康。

"Look, our democracies are healthier than they've ever been.

There's more news than ever.

我们有前所未有的大量的信息。

Of course presidents will say what they'll say,

当然总统会说他们想要说的，

but everyone else can say what they will say.

但其他人可以说他们想要说的。

那么区别是什么？ 为什么这就有了额外的危险？”

What's not to like? How is there an extra danger?"

CA: So, I wish that was true.

CA: 我希望那是真实的。

I wish that the proliferation of platforms upon which we get our information

我希望我们获取信息的平台的增加

意味着事实和透明度的增加，

meant that there was a proliferation of truth and transparency

以及深度和准确性的增加。

and depth and accuracy.

But I think the opposite has happened.

但我认为相反的情况发生了。

You know, I'm a little bit of a Luddite,

你知道，我有一点路德主义，

I will confess.

我承认这一点。

Even when we started to talk about the information superhighway,

即使当我们很久之前开始谈论

which was a long time ago,

信息高速公路的时候，

before social media, Twitter and all the rest of it,

那在社交网络之前，推特和 所有其它这些东西之前，

I was actually really afraid

我实际上是真的很害怕

that that would put people into certain lanes and tunnels

那将会把人们置身于 特定的道路和隧道里面，

and have them just focusing on areas of their own interest

使得他们仅仅专注在 他们自己感兴趣的的领域，

instead of seeing the broad picture.

而看不到更广的画面。

And I'm afraid to say that with algorithms, with logarithms,

我害怕地说 按照那种算法，

无论是以什么方式，

with whatever the "-ithms" are

that direct us into all these particular channels of information,

那将领导我们去到所有这些 特定的信息渠道，

那似乎是现在正在发生的。

that seems to be happening right now.

I mean, people have written about this phenomenon.

我是说，人们描写了这些现象。

People have said that yes, the internet came,

人们说，是的， 网络世纪来临，

its promise was to exponentially explode our access to more democracy,

它带来的是大量的对于更加 民主的获取，

more information,

更多的信息，

less bias,

更少的偏见，

more varied information.

更多样化的信息。

And, in fact, the opposite has happened.

实际上，相反的情况发生了。

And so that, for me, is incredibly dangerous.

那对于我来说是相当危险的。

And again, when you are the president of this country and you say things,

回到那一点上，当你是这个国家的总统， 你在说一些事情的时候，

it also gives leaders in other undemocratic countries the cover

它同时也在为其它 不民主的国家做掩护，

to affront us even worse,

去更加地冒犯我们，

and to really whack us -- and their own journalists --

而且用这个虚假新闻的棍棒， 真正打击我们——

with this bludgeon of fake news.

和他们的记者。

CH: 这在某种程度上已经发生，

CH: To what extent is what happened, though,

in part, just an unintended consequence,

部分上，仅仅是无心的后果，

你曾经工作的传统意义上的媒体，

that the traditional media that you worked in

有这个策划调节的角色，

had this curation-mediation role,

where certain norms were observed,

一些特定的规定是必须的，

certain stories would be rejected because they weren't credible,

一些故事会被否决， 因为它们不可信，

but now that the standard for publication and for amplification

但是现在发表和传播的标准

is just interest, attention, excitement, click,

仅仅是兴趣，关注， 兴奋，点击。

"Did it get clicked on?"

“它有没有被点击？”

"Send it out there!"

“发布出去！”

and that's what's -- is that part of what's caused the problem?

那是所谓的—— 那是所引起的问题的一部分吗？

CA: 我认为这是一个大问题， 我们看到了2016年的大选，

CA: I think it's a big problem, and we saw this in the election of 2016,

where the idea of "clickbait" was very sexy and very attractive,

关于“标题党”这个概念， 是非常性感和吸引人的，

and so all these fake news sites and fake news items

那么所有这些虚假新闻网站和虚假的内容

were not just haphazardly and by happenstance being put out there,

不仅仅是胡乱地， 而且是偶然地被发布出去，

there's been a whole industry in the creation of fake news

有整个行业都在制造虚假新闻，

in parts of Eastern Europe, wherever,

在东欧的一部分，或者其它地方，

and you know, it's planted in real space and in cyberspace.

都在真实的空间以及网络空间中生根。

So I think that, also,

所以我也在想，

我们科技以声速或者光速

the ability of our technology to proliferate this stuff

at the speed of sound or light, just about --

扩散这样东西的能力——

we've never faced that before.

这种事我们从来没有面对过。

And we've never faced such a massive amount of information

而且我们从来没有面对过 这样庞大的信息量，

which is not curated

而这些信息不是被

by those whose profession leads them to abide by the truth,

那些职业记者去捍卫真相，

去做事实调查，

to fact-check

去维护一个操守准则 和一个职业道德的守则。

and to maintain a code of conduct and a code of professional ethics.

CH: Many people here may know people who work at Facebook

CH: 在座的很多人认识那些在脸书

or Twitter and Google and so on.

或者推特以及谷歌工作的人。

They all seem like great people with good intention --

他们似乎都是很棒的人， 有着好的意图——

让我们姑且这样说。

let's assume that.

If you could speak with the leaders of those companies,

如果你能够和这些 公司的领导者对话，

what would you say to them?

你会对他们说些什么？

CA: Well, you know what --

CA: 你知道吗——

I'm sure they are incredibly well-intentioned,

我确定他们都 有着极度良好的意图，

and they certainly developed an unbelievable, game-changing system,

而且他们绝对是发展了 一个令人难以置信的，有突破性的系统，

where everybody's connected on this thing called Facebook.

在那个系统里每个人都通过脸书相关联。

And they've created a massive economy for themselves

他们为他们自己 创造了一个巨大的经济体，

and an amazing amount of income.

以及令人惊叹的收入。

I would just say,

我会说，

"Guys, you know, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee

“大伙们，你们知道，是时候醒来认清事实了。

and look at what's happening to us right now."

然后看看现在正在发生的事情。”

Mark Zuckerberg wants to create a global community.

马克·扎克伯格想要创造 一个全球性的社区。

I want to know: What is that global community going to look like?

我想知道：那个全球社区 将会看起来是什么样子的？

我想知道职业守则 实际上是在哪里。

I want to know where the codes of conduct actually are.

马克·扎克伯格说——

Mark Zuckerberg said --

and I don't blame him, he probably believed this --

我不是责怪他， 他估计相信这个——

that it was crazy to think

这个很疯狂的想法是

that the Russians or anybody else could be tinkering and messing around

俄国或者任何其他人 都可以用这种方式

with this avenue.

摆弄或者是玩弄我们。

And what have we just learned in the last few weeks?

我们在过去的几周中 学到了什么？

That, actually, there has been a major problem in that regard,

实际上，有一个主要的问题，

and now they're having to investigate it and figure it out.

现在他们在进行调查。

是的，他们在做 他们现在力所能及的

Yes, they're trying to do what they can now

to prevent the rise of fake news,

去阻止虚假新闻的增加，

but, you know,

但是，你知道，

很长时间以来 这都是很不严格的。

it went pretty unrestricted for a long, long time.

所以我会说，你们知道，

So I guess I would say, you know,

you guys are brilliant at technology;

你们很精通科技；

让我们用另一套算法吧。

let's figure out another algorithm.

我们可以吗？

Can we not?

CH: An algorithm that includes journalistic investigation --

CH: 一个包括 记者性调查的算法——

CA: 我不是很明白 他们是怎么做的，但你知道——

CA: I don't really know how they do it, but somehow, you know --

filter out the crap!

过滤掉垃圾！

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And not just the unintentional --

不仅仅是不经意间——

(Applause)

（观众掌声）

but the deliberate lies that are planted

而是那种几十年来

by people who've been doing this as a matter of warfare

被视为战争手段的人们

for decades.

刻意植下的谎言。

The Soviets, the Russians --

苏维埃，俄国——

they are the masters of war by other means, of hybrid warfare.

他们是战争大师， 换句话说，混合战争大师。

And this is a --

这是一个——

this is what they've decided to do.

这是他们决定去做的事情。

It worked in the United States,

在美国行得通，

it didn't work in France,

在法国行不通，

it hasn't worked in Germany.

在德国还没有成功。

During the elections there, where they've tried to interfere,

在选举期间， 他们尝试过干涉过，

the president of France right now, Emmanuel Macron,

现任的法国总统 埃马纽埃尔·马克龙，

took a very tough stand and confronted it head on,

站在很强硬的立场上， 持续与其作战，

as did Angela Merkel.

安格拉·默克尔也是这样做的。

CH: There's some hope to be had from some of this, isn't there?

CH: 这其中多少有一些希望不是吗？

世人会学习的。

That the world learns.

We get fooled once,

我们被愚弄过一次，

maybe we get fooled again,

也许我们会再次被愚弄，

but maybe not the third time.

但也许不会有第三次。

是那样吗？

Is that true?

CA: 我想说，希望吧。

CA: I mean, let's hope.

但我认为就这而言， 这也事关科技，

But I think in this regard that so much of it is also about technology,

that the technology has to also be given some kind of moral compass.

科技也被给予了一些 道德上的罗盘。

I know I'm talking nonsense, but you know what I mean.

我知道我在乱说， 但你懂我的意思。

CH: We need a filter-the-crap algorithm with a moral compass --

CH: 我们需要有着道德罗盘的 可以过滤垃圾的算法——

CA: There you go.

CA: 正是。

CH: 我认为那是好的。

CH: I think that's good.

CA: 不——“道德科技”。

CA: No -- "moral technology."

We all have moral compasses -- moral technology.

我们都有道德罗盘—— 道德科技。

CH: I think that's a great challenge. CA: You know what I mean.

CH: 我认为那是一个很大的挑战。 CA: 你知道我的意思。

CH: 花一分钟谈论领导力。

CH: Talk just a minute about leadership.

你有一个机会和全世界 如此多的人谈话。

You've had a chance to speak with so many people across the world.

我想对于我们 其中某些人来说——

I think for some of us --

I speak for myself, I don't know if others feel this --

我是在说我自己的观点， 我不知道是否其他人也这样认为——

一直以来有一种失望：

there's kind of been a disappointment of:

领导者们都在哪里？

Where are the leaders?

我们其中的许多人感到失望——

So many of us have been disappointed --

Aung San Suu Kyi, what's happened recently,

翁山苏姬， 那是最近发生的，

就好像是，“不！另一个倒下了。"

it's like, "No! Another one bites the dust."

You know, it's heartbreaking.

你知道，很令人心碎。

（观众笑声）

(Laughter)

Who have you met

你遇见了谁？

who you have been impressed by, inspired by?

你对谁印象深刻？ 你被谁鼓舞？

CA: Well, you talk about the world in crisis,

CA: 你要谈论在危机中的世界，

which is absolutely true,

这绝对是真实的，

and those of us who spend our whole lives immersed in this crisis --

对于我们这些将整个生命 沉浸在危机中的人来说——

I mean, we're all on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

我是说，我们都在神经崩溃的边缘上。

So it's pretty stressful right now.

所以现在是一个 压力非常大的时期。

And you're right --

而且你是对的——

there is this perceived and actual vacuum of leadership,

这里有一个感知的和实际上的 领导力的真空，

and it's not me saying it, I ask all these --

不是我在说， 我在问这些——

whoever I'm talking to, I ask about leadership.

所有和我谈话的人， 我和他们谈领导力。

I was speaking to the outgoing president of Liberia today,

我今天在和十分友好的 利比里亚总统谈话，

[Ellen Johnson Sirleaf,]

埃伦·约翰逊·瑟利夫，

who --

她——

(Applause)

（观众掌声）

in three weeks' time,

在三个星期以内，

will be one of the very rare heads of an African country

将会成为非洲国家 十分罕见的领导者之一，

who actually abides by the constitution

少有的遵守宪法的

and gives up power after her prescribed term.

而且在任期结束之后放弃权力的领导人。

She has said she wants to do that as a lesson.

她说她做这个是想要 建立一个先例。

But when I asked her about leadership,

但当我和她探讨领导力的时候，

and I gave a quick-fire round of certain names,

我快速提及了一些名字，

I presented her with the name of the new French president,

我提及了法国新总统的名字，

Emmanuel Macron.

埃马纽埃尔·马克龙。

And she said --

然后她说——

I said, "So what do you think when I say his name?"

我说，“当我提到他名字的时候 你想到了什么？”

And she said,

她说，

"Shaping up potentially to be

“他是可以成为潜在的

a leader to fill our current leadership vacuum."

来填充我们现今领导真空的一个领导人。”

我认为那是很有趣的。

I thought that was really interesting.

Yesterday, I happened to have an interview with him.

昨天，我刚巧和他做了访问。

我很自豪地说，

I'm very proud to say,

我拿到了他的第一个国际专访 这很棒。是在昨天。

I got his first international interview. It was great. It was yesterday.

我印象很深。

And I was really impressed.

我不知道我是否应该在 一个公开的论坛里谈论这个，

I don't know whether I should be saying that in an open forum,

但我真的有很深的印象。

but I was really impressed.

(Laughter)

（笑声）

这可能是因为 这是他的第一个专访，

And it could be just because it was his first interview,

but -- I asked questions, and you know what?

但是——我提了问， 你们知道吗？

He answered them!

他回答了他们！

(Laughter)

（观众笑声）

(Applause)

（观众掌声）

没有回旋，

There was no spin,

there was no wiggle and waggle,

没有来来回回，

there was no spend-five-minutes- to-come-back-to-the-point.

没有五分钟之后 回到话题点上来。

我不用一直打断他，

I didn't have to keep interrupting,

which I've become rather renowned for doing,

我以一直做这个闻名，

because I want people to answer the question.

因为我想要人们回答问题。

And he answered me,

而他回答了我的问题，

and it was pretty interesting.

这就有趣了。

And he said --

然后他说——

CH: Tell me what he said.

CH: 告诉我们他说的。

CA: No, no, you go ahead.

CA: 不， 你先说。

CH: You're the interrupter, I'm the listener.

CH: 你是打断者， 我是聆听者。

CA: No, no, go ahead.

CA: 不，你先说。

CH: 他说了什么？

CH: What'd he say?

CA: 我们今天在这里谈论了 民族主义和部落主义。

CA: OK. You've talked about nationalism and tribalism here today.

我问他，“你是如何有勇气 去面对现在涌行的

I asked him, "How did you have the guts to confront the prevailing winds

关于反全球化， 民族主义，民粹主义的潮势，

of anti-globalization, nationalism, populism

when you can see what happened in Brexit,

当你在2017年初看到

when you could see what happened in the United States

英国退出欧盟所发生的，

当你看到可能在美国发生的，

and what might have happened in many European elections

at the beginning of 2017?"

在很多欧洲选举中可能发生的？”

And he said,

然后他说，

"For me, nationalism means war.

“对于我来说，民族主义意味着战争。

We have seen it before,

我们曾经见证过，

we have lived through it before on my continent,

在我生活的大陆上我们经历过，

and I am very clear about that."

所以我对于这点很明确。”

So he was not going to, just for political expediency,

所以他不会只是 为了政治上的便利，

embrace the, kind of, lowest common denominator

迎合大部分的选票，

that had been embraced in other political elections.

这种情况常发生在其它政治选举中。

And he stood against Marine Le Pen, who is a very dangerous woman.

他选择和玛丽娜·勒龙， 一个很危险的女人对战。

CH: Last question for you, Christiane.

CH: 最后一个问题，克莉丝蒂安。

TED is about ideas worth spreading.

跟我们讲讲关于 值得广布流传的观念。

If you could plant one idea into the minds of everyone here,

如果你要给在座的每位 植入一个观念，

what would that be?

那会是什么？

CA: 我会说，对于你从哪里获取 信息，要十分小心谨慎；

CA: I would say really be careful where you get your information from;

really take responsibility for what you read, listen to and watch;

真的要对于你所阅读的， 听到的和看到的，承担起责任来；

make sure that you go to the trusted brands to get your main information,

确保你去到你信任的渠道 去获取你的主要信息，

no matter whether you have a wide, eclectic intake,

无论你是否有一个广泛的 不拘一格的抓取信息的方式，

真正的和你信任的渠道 保持连接，

really stick with the brand names that you know,

因为在现今这个世界， 就在此时此刻，

because in this world right now, at this moment right now,

our crises, our challenges, our problems are so severe,

我们的危机，我们的挑战， 我们的问题如此严重，

除非我们都以全球公民的 身份来共同参与，

that unless we are all engaged as global citizens

who appreciate the truth,

我们都珍惜和推崇真相，

who understand science, empirical evidence and facts,

我们都明白科学证据和事实，

then we are just simply going to be wandering along

否则我们就只会是随波逐流

to a potential catastrophe.

到一个潜在的巨大危机里面去。

So I would say, the truth,

所以，我会说，真相，

and then I would come back to Emmanuel Macron

然后我会回到 埃马纽埃尔·马克龙上，

and talk about love.

谈论爱。

我认为世间没有足够的爱。

I would say that there's not enough love going around.

And I asked him to tell me about love.

我要他和我说说爱。

I said, "You know, your marriage is the subject of global obsession."

我说，“你知道的，你的婚姻 是一个全球都沉迷其中的话题。”

(Laughter)

（观众笑声）

"Can you tell me about love?

“你可以跟我们说说爱情吗？”

What does it mean to you?"

它对你来说意味着什么？”

I've never asked a president or an elected leader about love.

我从来没有向一个总统或是 一个被选举的领导人提出关于爱的问题。

我当时在想，我要试试。

I thought I'd try it.

And he said -- you know, he actually answered it.

然后他说——你知道的， 他实际上回答了这个问题。

And he said, "I love my wife, she is part of me,

他说，“我爱我的妻子 她是我的一部分，

we've been together for decades."

我们在一起超过十年了。”

But here's where it really counted,

但这里是关键点，

what really stuck with me.

这才是真正抓住我的地方，

He said,

他说，

"It is so important for me to have somebody at home

“对于我来说，有一个人在家里 告诉我真相，

who tells me the truth."

是如此地重要。”

So you see, I brought it home. It's all about the truth.

你看，我把它带回了家里。 都是关于真相的。

（观众笑声）

(Laughter)

CH: So there you go. Truth and love. Ideas worth spreading.

CH: 真相和爱情。值得推广的理念。

克莉丝蒂安·阿曼普，十分感谢你今天的到来。

Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much. That was great.

（观众掌声）

(Applause)

CA: Thank you. CH: That was really lovely.

CA: 谢谢。 CH: 那真的是很棒的经历。

（观众掌声）

(Applause)

CA: Thank you.

CA: 谢谢。