How to seek truth in the era of fake news | Christiane Amanpour

Prevoditelj: Marija Kostović Recezent: Sanda L

Chris Anderson: Christiane, great to have you here.

Chris Anderson: Christiane, hvala što ste došli.

Imali ste sjajno stajalište,

So you've had this amazing viewpoint,

and perhaps it's fair to say that in the last few years,

a možemo reći da ste u proteklih par godina

there have been some alarming developments that you're seeing.

svjedočili nekim alarmantnim događajima.

What's alarmed you most?

Što vas najviše uznemiruje?

Christiane Amanpour: Well, just listening to the earlier speakers,

Christiane Amanpour: Nakon što sam poslušala ranije govornike,

I can frame it in what they've been saying:

mogu sažeti ono o čemu oni govore:

climate change, for instance -- cities, the threat to our environment

npr. klimatske promjene - gradovi, opasnost za okoliš

and our lives.

i za naše živote.

It basically also boils down to understanding the truth

Svodi se na to da razumijemo istinu

and to be able to get to the truth of what we're talking about

i da možemo razaznati istinu o onome o čemo govorimo,

in order to really be able to solve it.

kako bismo mogli riješiti problem.

So if 99.9 percent of the science on climate

Ako 99,9 posto znanstvenih dokaza o klimi

is empirical, scientific evidence,

proizlazi iz empirijskih znanstvenih dokaza,

but it's competing almost equally with a handful of deniers,

koji se jednako uspoređuju sa šačicom protivnika,

that is not the truth;

tu se ne radi o istini;

that is the epitome of fake news.

to je primjer lažnih vijesti.

And so for me, the last few years -- certainly this last year --

Meni se u proteklih par godina, a posebice u zadnjoj godini

has crystallized the notion of fake news in a way that's truly alarming

iskristalizirala ideja lažnih vijesti na način koji je zastrašujuć,

and not just some slogan to be thrown around.

ne radi se samo o sloganu kojim se razbacujemo.

Because when you can't distinguish between the truth and fake news,

Jer kada ne možeš razlikovati istinu od lažnih vijesti,

you have a very much more difficult time trying to solve

puno je teže nastojati riješiti

neke od velikih problema s kojima se suočavamo.

some of the great issues that we face.

CA: Well, you've been involved in this question of,

CH: Uključena si u raspravu

what is balance, what is truth, what is impartiality,

o uravnoteženosti, istini, objektivnosti

for a long time.

već duže vrijeme.

You were on the front lines reporting the Balkan Wars 25 years ago.

Izvještavala si iz rovova balkanskih ratova prije 25 godina.

And back then, you famously said,

Proslavila si se poznatom izjavom

by calling out human right abuses,

o kršenju ljudskih prava:

you said, "Look, there are some situations one simply cannot be neutral about,

"Postoje situacije u kojima ne možeš ostati neutralan,

because when you're neutral,

jer ako ostaneš neutralan,

you are an accomplice."

postaješ suučesnik."

So, do you feel that today's journalists aren't heeding that advice

Misliš li da današnje novinare nije briga

about balance?

za uravnoteženost?

CA: Well, look, I think for journalists, objectivity is the golden rule.

CA: Mislim da je objektivnost zlatno pravilo za novinare.

But I think sometimes we don't understand what objectivity means.

Ali mislim da ponekad ne znamo što znači objektivnost.

And I actually learned this very, very young in my career,

To sam zapravo naučila u počecima svoje karijere,

which was during the Balkan Wars.

za vrijeme balkanskih ratova.

I was young then.

Bila sam mlada.

It was about 25 years ago.

To je bilo prije 25 godina.

And what we faced was the wholesale violation, not just of human rights,

Suočili smo se s raznim povredama, ne samo ljudskih prava,

but all the way to ethnic cleansing and genocide,

već i s etničkim čišćenjem i genocidom,

and that has been adjudicated in the highest war crimes court

što je završilo na najvišem sudu za ratne zločine

in the world.

na svijetu.

So, we know what we were seeing.

Sada znamo što smo vidjeli.

Trying to tell the world what we were seeing

Kada smo pokušali prenijeti svijetu što vidimo,

brought us accusations of bias,

optuživali su nas za pristranost,

of siding with one side,

da zauzimamo jednu stranu,

of not seeing the whole side,

da ne vidimo cijelu priču

and just, you know, trying to tell one story.

i da pokušavamo dati samo jednu stranu priče.

I particularly and personally was accused of siding with,

Mene su osobno optužili da zauzimam stranu

for instance, the citizens of Sarajevo --

građana Sarajeva...

"siding with the Muslims,"

"da se zauzimam za muslimane"

because they were the minority who were being attacked

jer su oni bili manjina koju su napadali

by Christians on the Serb side

kršćani sa srpske strane

in this area.

na tom području.

And it worried me.

To me zabrinjavalo.

It worried me that I was being accused of this.

Brinulo me što me optužuju za to.

I thought maybe I was wrong,

Mislila sam da sam možda u krivu,

maybe I'd forgotten what objectivity was.

da sam zaboravila što je objektivnost.

But then I started to understand that what people wanted

Ali onda sam shvatila da ljudi žele

was actually not to do anything --

da ništa ne činiš,

not to step in,

da se ne uključuješ,

not to change the situation,

ne pokušavaš promijeniti situaciju,

not to find a solution.

ne tražiš rješenje.

And so, their fake news at that time,

Tako da su lažne vijesti u ono doba,

their lie at that time --

njihova laž iz onog doba...

including our government's, our democratically elected government's,

uključujući naše vlade, demokratski izabrane vlade,

with values and principles of human rights --

s vrijednostima i načelima ljudskih prava...

their lie was to say that all sides are equally guilty,

njihova je laž bila da su sve strane jednako krive,

that this has been centuries of ethnic hatred,

da se radi o stoljećima etničke mržnje,

whereas we knew that wasn't true,

a mi smo znali da to nije istina,

that one side had decided to kill, slaughter and ethnically cleanse

da je jedna strana odlučila ubijati, klati i provoditi etničko čišćenje

another side.

nad drugom stranom.

So that is where, for me,

Tu sam shvatila da za mene

I understood that objectivity means giving all sides an equal hearing

objektivnost znači saslušati sve strane,

and talking to all sides,

razgovarati sa svim stranama,

but not treating all sides equally,

ali ne i jednako postupati prema svima,

not creating a forced moral equivalence or a factual equivalence.

nikako stvarati prisilne moralne ili činjenične jednakosti.

And when you come up against that crisis point

A kada dođete do te kritične točke

in situations of grave violations of international and humanitarian law,

u situacijama ozbiljnog kršenja međunarodnih i humanitarnih prava,

if you don't understand what you're seeing,

ako ne razumijete to čemu svjedočite,

if you don't understand the truth

ako ne razumijete istinu

and if you get trapped in the fake news paradigm,

i uhvaćeni ste u paradigmu lažnih vijesti,

then you are an accomplice.

vi postajete suučesnik.

And I refuse to be an accomplice to genocide.

A ja odbijam biti suučesnik u genocidu.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

CH: So there have always been these propaganda battles,

CH: Propagandne bitke postoje oduvijek,

and you were courageous in taking the stand you took back then.

a vi ste bili hrabri i zauzeli svoj stav.

Today, there's a whole new way, though,

Danas postoje potpuno drukčiji načini

in which news seems to be becoming fake.

kako vijesti postaju lažne.

How would you characterize that?

Kako biste to objasnili?

CA: Well, look -- I am really alarmed.

CA: Vidite, ja sam stvarno uznemirena.

And everywhere I look,

Gdje god da pogledam,

you know, we're buffeted by it.

šamaraju nas time.

Obviously, when the leader of the free world,

Naravno, kada vođa slobodnog svijeta,

when the most powerful person in the entire world,

najmoćnija osoba na cijelom svijetu,

which is the president of the United States --

predsjednik Sjedinjenih Država,

this is the most important, most powerful country in the whole world,

to je najvažnija, najmoćnija zemlja na cijelom svijetu,

economically, militarily, politically in every which way --

gospodarski, vojno, politički, na sve načine...

and it seeks to, obviously, promote its values and power around the world.

i naravno da želi promicati svoje vrijednosti i moć diljem svijeta.

So we journalists, who only seek the truth --

Mi, novinari, koji tražimo istinu,

I mean, that is our mission --

to je naša misija,

we go around the world looking for the truth

idemo svijetom tražeći istinu

kako bismo bili oči i uši ostalih,

in order to be everybody's eyes and ears,

ljudi koji ne mogu posjetiti druge dijelove svijeta

people who can't go out in various parts of the world

to figure out what's going on about things that are vitally important

kako bi saznali više o ključnim stvarima

to everybody's health and security.

za zdravlje i sigurnost čovječanstva.

So when you have a major world leader accusing you of fake news,

Kada vas veliki svjetski vođa optuži za lažne vijesti,

it has an exponential ripple effect.

to uzrokuje lančanu reakciju.

And what it does is, it starts to chip away

Počinje nagrizati

at not just our credibility,

ne samo našu vjerodostojnost,

but at people's minds --

već i umove ljudi...

people who look at us, and maybe they're thinking,

ljudi koji nas gledaju i misle:

"Well, if the president of the United States says that,

"Ako predsjednik Sjedinjenih Država to kaže,

možda u tome ima istine."

maybe somewhere there's a truth in there."

CH: Presidents have always been critical of the media --

CH: Predsjednici su uvijek kritizirali medije...

CA: Not in this way.

CA: Ne na ovaj način.

CH: So, to what extent --

CH: U kojoj mjeri...

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

CH: I mean, someone a couple years ago looking at the avalanche of information

CH: Prije par godina, da je netko vidio tu lavinu informacija

pouring through Twitter and Facebook and so forth,

koja se danas slijeva Twitterom, Facebookom, itd.,

might have said,

rekao bi:

"Vidi, naše su demokracije zdravije nego ikad.

"Look, our democracies are healthier than they've ever been.

There's more news than ever.

Vijesti je više nego ikada.

Of course presidents will say what they'll say,

Naravno, predsjednici govore svoje,

but everyone else can say what they will say.

ali i drugi mogu govoriti svoje.

Što je u tome loše? Gdje leži opasnost?"

What's not to like? How is there an extra danger?"

CA: So, I wish that was true.

CA: Voljela bih da je tako.

I wish that the proliferation of platforms upon which we get our information

Voljela bih kada bi porast platformi s kojih dolaze informacije

meant that there was a proliferation of truth and transparency

značio da postoji porast istine i transparentnosti,

and depth and accuracy.

dubine i točnosti.

But I think the opposite has happened.

Ali, mislim da se dogodilo suprotno.

You know, I'm a little bit of a Luddite,

Znate, ja sam pomalo luddit,

I will confess.

priznajem.

Even when we started to talk about the information superhighway,

Čak i kada smo počeli govoriti o ogromnom protoku informacija,

which was a long time ago,

što je bilo prije dosta vremena,

before social media, Twitter and all the rest of it,

prije društvenih mreža, Twittera i svega ostalog,

I was actually really afraid

zapravo me je bilo strah

that that would put people into certain lanes and tunnels

da će ljudi dobiti svoje cestice i tunele informacija

and have them just focusing on areas of their own interest

i da će se usredotočiti samo na ono što ih zanima,

instead of seeing the broad picture.

umjesto da gledaju širu sliku.

And I'm afraid to say that with algorithms, with logarithms,

I bojim se da se uz algoritme, logaritme,

with whatever the "-ithms" are

koje god "itme",

that direct us into all these particular channels of information,

koji nas vode kroz te kanale informacija,

upravo to danas događa.

that seems to be happening right now.

I mean, people have written about this phenomenon.

Ljudi su već pisali o toj pojavi.

People have said that yes, the internet came,

Kažu da je istina da je pojava interneta

its promise was to exponentially explode our access to more democracy,

značila obećanje o rastućoj dostupnosti većoj demokraciji,

more information,

većoj količini informacija,

less bias,

manjoj razini pristranosti,

more varied information.

raznovrsnijim informacijama.

And, in fact, the opposite has happened.

A zapravo se dogodilo suprotno.

And so that, for me, is incredibly dangerous.

I za mene je to jako opasno.

And again, when you are the president of this country and you say things,

Ponavljam, kada predsjednik države govori takve stvari,

it also gives leaders in other undemocratic countries the cover

daje priliku vođama drugih, manje demokratskih država

to affront us even worse,

da nas još više napadaju,

and to really whack us -- and their own journalists --

da šamaraju nas i naše novinare

with this bludgeon of fake news.

tom toljagom lažnih vijesti.

CH: To what extent is what happened, though,

CH: Ipak, u kojoj je mjeri ono što se dogodilo

in part, just an unintended consequence,

tek nenamjerna posljedica,

that the traditional media that you worked in

tradicionalni mediji u kojima ste radili

had this curation-mediation role,

imali su ulogu konzervatora i posrednika,

where certain norms were observed,

poštivale su se određene norme,

certain stories would be rejected because they weren't credible,

neke bi se priče odbile jer nisu bile vjerodostojne,

but now that the standard for publication and for amplification

ali sada je standard za objavu

is just interest, attention, excitement, click,

samo interes, pažnja, uzbuđenje, klikovi,

"Did it get clicked on?"

"Je li se kliknulo?"

"Send it out there!"

"Šalji to!"

and that's what's -- is that part of what's caused the problem?

Je li to djelomični uzrok problema?

CA: Mislim da je to velik problem, vidjeli smo to kod izbora 2016.

CA: I think it's a big problem, and we saw this in the election of 2016,

where the idea of "clickbait" was very sexy and very attractive,

kada je ideja "clickbaita" bila vrlo privlačna

and so all these fake news sites and fake news items

i postojale su stranice s lažnim vijestima

were not just haphazardly and by happenstance being put out there,

koje se nisu objavljivale tek nasumično,

there's been a whole industry in the creation of fake news

pokrenuta je industrija stvaranja lažnih vijesti

in parts of Eastern Europe, wherever,

u dijelovima istočne Europe, gdje god,

and you know, it's planted in real space and in cyberspace.

i nalazi se u stvarnom i u internetskom prostoru.

So I think that, also,

Mislim da je

the ability of our technology to proliferate this stuff

i naša tehnologija koja to omogućuje

at the speed of sound or light, just about --

brzinom zvuka ili svjetlosti,

we've never faced that before.

nikada se nismo suočavali s takvim nečim.

And we've never faced such a massive amount of information

I nikada se nismo suočavali s masivnim količinama informacija

which is not curated

koje ne uređuju

by those whose profession leads them to abide by the truth,

oni čija struka nalaže da se drže istine,

to fact-check

da provjere činjenice

and to maintain a code of conduct and a code of professional ethics.

i da se drže kodeksa ponašanja i profesionalne etike.

CH: Many people here may know people who work at Facebook

CH: Mnogi ljudi ovdje možda poznaju osobe koje rade za Facebook,

or Twitter and Google and so on.

Twtitter, Google, itd.

They all seem like great people with good intention --

Svi se čine kao ljudi s dobrim namjerama...

uzmimo to kao pretpostavku.

let's assume that.

Kada biste mogli razgovarati s voditeljima tih tvrtki,

If you could speak with the leaders of those companies,

what would you say to them?

što biste im rekli?

CA: Well, you know what --

CA: Znate što?

I'm sure they are incredibly well-intentioned,

Vjerujem da imaju dobre namjere

and they certainly developed an unbelievable, game-changing system,

i stvorili su sustave koji mijenjaju svijet,

where everybody's connected on this thing called Facebook.

u kojem su svi povezani preko Facebooka.

And they've created a massive economy for themselves

Stvorili su ogromno vlastito gospodarstvo

and an amazing amount of income.

i nevjerojatne prihode.

I would just say,

Rekla bih:

"Guys, you know, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee

"Dečki, vrijeme je da se probudite, popijete kavu

and look at what's happening to us right now."

i pogledate što nam se događa."

Mark Zuckerberg wants to create a global community.

Mark Zuckerberg želi stvoriti globalnu zajednicu.

I want to know: What is that global community going to look like?

Ja želim znati: kako će globalna zajednica izgledati?

I want to know where the codes of conduct actually are.

Gdje se nalaze kodeksi ponašanja?

Mark Zuckerberg said --

Mark Zuckerberg je rekao...

and I don't blame him, he probably believed this --

i ne krivim ga, vjerojatno u to vjeruje,

that it was crazy to think

da bi bila ludost misliti

that the Russians or anybody else could be tinkering and messing around

da će Rusi ili bilo tko drugi

with this avenue.

ići tim putem.

And what have we just learned in the last few weeks?

A što smo saznali u proteklih par tjedana?

That, actually, there has been a major problem in that regard,

Da u vezi s tim postoji golem problem

and now they're having to investigate it and figure it out.

koji sada moraju ispitati i riješiti.

Yes, they're trying to do what they can now

Da, sada pokušavaju sve što mogu

to prevent the rise of fake news,

da bi spriječili porast lažnih vijesti,

but, you know,

ali, znate,

it went pretty unrestricted for a long, long time.

prostor je bio neograničen jako, jako dugo.

So I guess I would say, you know,

Rekla bih, znate, dečki,

you guys are brilliant at technology;

sjajni ste u tehnologiji;

let's figure out another algorithm.

osmislimo novi algoritam.

Can we not?

Zar ne možemo?

CH: An algorithm that includes journalistic investigation --

CH: Algoritam koji uključuje novinarsko istraživanje...

CA: I don't really know how they do it, but somehow, you know --

CA: Ne znam kako bi to napravili, ali nekako moramo

filter out the crap!

filtrirati sranje!

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

And not just the unintentional --

I to ne samo nenamjerne...

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

but the deliberate lies that are planted

već i namjerne laži koje poslužuju

by people who've been doing this as a matter of warfare

oni koji na ovaj način ratuju

for decades.

već desetljećima.

The Soviets, the Russians --

Sovjeti, Rusi,

they are the masters of war by other means, of hybrid warfare.

savladali su druge vrste ratova, hibridne ratove.

And this is a --

I ovo je to...

this is what they've decided to do.

to što su odlučili napraviti.

It worked in the United States,

Djelovalo je u Sjedinjenim Državama,

it didn't work in France,

nije djelovalo u Francuskoj,

it hasn't worked in Germany.

nije djelovalo u Njemačkoj.

During the elections there, where they've tried to interfere,

Za vrijeme tamošnjih izbora, kada su se pokušali ubaciti,

the president of France right now, Emmanuel Macron,

sadašnji predsjednik Francuske, Emmanuel Macron,

took a very tough stand and confronted it head on,

zauzeo je oštar stav i suprotstavio se,

as did Angela Merkel.

kao i Angela Merkel.

CH: There's some hope to be had from some of this, isn't there?

CH: Postoji neka nada u svemu ovome, zar ne?

That the world learns.

Da će svijet naučiti.

We get fooled once,

Mogu nas prevariti jedanput,

maybe we get fooled again,

možda i dvaput,

but maybe not the third time.

ali ne i treći put.

Is that true?

Je li tako?

CA: Nadajmo se.

CA: I mean, let's hope.

Budući veliki dio ovisi o tehnologiji,

But I think in this regard that so much of it is also about technology,

that the technology has to also be given some kind of moral compass.

tehnologija mora dobiti moralni kompas.

I know I'm talking nonsense, but you know what I mean.

Znam da govorim besmislice, ali znate što želim reći.

CH: We need a filter-the-crap algorithm with a moral compass --

CH: Treba nam algoritam za filtriranje sranja s moralnim kompasom...

CA: There you go.

CA: Tako je.

CH: Mislim da je to dobro.

CH: I think that's good.

CA: No -- "moral technology."

CA: Ne... "moralna tehnologija."

We all have moral compasses -- moral technology.

Svi imamo moralne kompase... moralna tehnologija.

CH: I think that's a great challenge. CA: You know what I mean.

CH: To je veliki izazov. CA: Znate što mislim.

CH: Osvrnimo se malo na vodstvo.

CH: Talk just a minute about leadership.

Imali ste priliku razgovarati s puno ljudi diljem svijeta.

You've had a chance to speak with so many people across the world.

I think for some of us --

Za neke od nas...

I speak for myself, I don't know if others feel this --

govorim u svoje ime, ne znam što drugi misle...

malo smo se razočarali:

there's kind of been a disappointment of:

Where are the leaders?

Gdje su vođe?

So many of us have been disappointed --

Mnogi od nas osjećaju razočaranje...

Aung San Suu Kyi, what's happened recently,

Aung San Suu Kyi i nedavna zbivanja:

it's like, "No! Another one bites the dust."

"O, ne! Još je jedna svladana."

You know, it's heartbreaking.

To je jako tužno.

(Smijeh)

(Laughter)

Who have you met

Od ljudi koje ste upoznali,

who you have been impressed by, inspired by?

tko vas je impresionirao, nadahnuo?

CA: Well, you talk about the world in crisis,

CA: Govorite o svijetu u krizi,

which is absolutely true,

što je istina,

and those of us who spend our whole lives immersed in this crisis --

a mi koji cijeli život provodimo udubljeni u tu krizu...

I mean, we're all on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

svi smo na rubu živčanog sloma.

So it's pretty stressful right now.

Vremena su stresna.

And you're right --

I u pravu ste,

there is this perceived and actual vacuum of leadership,

došlo je do opipljivog i stvarnog vakuuma vodstva,

and it's not me saying it, I ask all these --

i to ne mislim samo ja,

whoever I'm talking to, I ask about leadership.

s kim god da razgovaram, pitam ih o vodstvu.

I was speaking to the outgoing president of Liberia today,

Danas sam razgovarala s vrlo pristupačnom predsjednicom Liberije,

[Ellen Johnson Sirleaf,]

Ellen Johnson Sirleaf,

who --

koja...

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

in three weeks' time,

za tri tjedna

will be one of the very rare heads of an African country

postaje jedna od rijetkih afričkih vođa

who actually abides by the constitution

koja se pridržava ustava

and gives up power after her prescribed term.

i predaje vlast nakon isteka mandata.

She has said she wants to do that as a lesson.

Rekla je da time želi dati lekciju.

But when I asked her about leadership,

Ali kada sam je pitala za vodstvo

and I gave a quick-fire round of certain names,

i ispalila nekoliko imena,

I presented her with the name of the new French president,

spomenula sam ime novog francuskog predsjednika,

Emmanuel Macron.

Emmanuela Macrona.

And she said --

A ona je rekla...

I said, "So what do you think when I say his name?"

Pitala sam: "Što pomislite kada izgovorim njegovo ime?"

And she said,

Odgovorila je:

"Shaping up potentially to be

"Razvija se u mogućeg vođu

a leader to fill our current leadership vacuum."

koji bi popunio aktualni vakuum vodstva."

Mislim da je to bilo vrlo zanimljivo.

I thought that was really interesting.

Yesterday, I happened to have an interview with him.

Jučer sam razgovarala s njim.

Mogu s ponosom reći

I'm very proud to say,

da mi je dao svoj prvi međunarodni intervju i bilo je sjajno.

I got his first international interview. It was great. It was yesterday.

Bila sam zaista impresionirana.

And I was really impressed.

Ne znam bih li trebala to govoriti ovako u forumu,

I don't know whether I should be saying that in an open forum,

ali zaista me impresionirao.

but I was really impressed.

(Smijeh)

(Laughter)

And it could be just because it was his first interview,

Možda zato što je to bio njegov prvi intervju,

but -- I asked questions, and you know what?

ali, postavljala sam pitanja i znate što?

He answered them!

Odgovarao je na njih!

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

There was no spin,

Nije bilo spinova,

there was no wiggle and waggle,

nije bilo izmotavanja,

there was no spend-five-minutes- to-come-back-to-the-point.

nije bilo trošenja minuta da bi se vratio na temu.

Nisam ga morala prekidati,

I didn't have to keep interrupting,

which I've become rather renowned for doing,

po čemu sam postala poznata,

because I want people to answer the question.

jer želim da ljudi odgovore na pitanje.

And he answered me,

I odgovorio mi je,

and it was pretty interesting.

i bilo je jako zanimljivo.

And he said --

Rekao je...

CH: Tell me what he said.

CH: Kažite što je rekao.

CA: No, no, you go ahead.

CA: Ne, ne, izvolite.

CH: You're the interrupter, I'm the listener.

CH: Vi prekidate, ja slušam.

CA: No, no, go ahead.

CA: Ne, ne, izvolite.

CH: Što je rekao?

CH: What'd he say?

CA: U redu. Ovdje ste danas govorili o nacionalizmu i pripadnosti.

CA: OK. You've talked about nationalism and tribalism here today.

Pitala sam ga: "Kako ste se usudili suprotstaviti trendovima

I asked him, "How did you have the guts to confront the prevailing winds

of anti-globalization, nationalism, populism

antiglobalizacije, nacionalizma, populizma,

when you can see what happened in Brexit,

kada vidite što se događa s Brexitom,

when you could see what happened in the United States

kada vidite što se događa u SAD-u

i što bi se moglo dogoditi na mnogim europskim izborima

and what might have happened in many European elections

početkom 2017.?"

at the beginning of 2017?"

And he said,

Rekao je:

"For me, nationalism means war.

"Za mene nacionalizam predstavlja rat.

We have seen it before,

Već smo to vidjeli,

we have lived through it before on my continent,

već smo to proživjeli na mojem kontinentu

and I am very clear about that."

i vrlo sam jasan po tom pitanju."

So he was not going to, just for political expediency,

Nije pristao radi lakše političke borbe

embrace the, kind of, lowest common denominator

prihvatiti najniži oblik određivanja

that had been embraced in other political elections.

koji je prihvaćen u drugim političkim izborima.

And he stood against Marine Le Pen, who is a very dangerous woman.

Suprotstavio se Marine Le Pen, vrlo opasnoj ženi.

CH: Last question for you, Christiane.

CH: Zadnje pitanje za vas, Christiane.

TED is about ideas worth spreading.

Kažite nam nešto o idejama koje vrijedi dijeliti.

If you could plant one idea into the minds of everyone here,

Kad biste mogli usaditi jednu ideju u glave svih ljudi ovdje,

what would that be?

koja bi to ideja bila?

CA: I would say really be careful where you get your information from;

CA: Treba paziti odakle dobivate informacije,

really take responsibility for what you read, listen to and watch;

preuzmite odgovornost za ono što čitate, slušate i gledate,

make sure that you go to the trusted brands to get your main information,

pazite da informacije dobivate od priznatih imena,

no matter whether you have a wide, eclectic intake,

bez obzira je li vaš izbor eklektičan,

really stick with the brand names that you know,

držite se imena koje poznajete,

because in this world right now, at this moment right now,

jer u ovom svijetu danas, u današnjem trenutku,

our crises, our challenges, our problems are so severe,

naše krize, izazovi i problemi toliko su teški

that unless we are all engaged as global citizens

i ako se ne angažiramo kao globalni građani

who appreciate the truth,

koji cijene istinu,

who understand science, empirical evidence and facts,

koji razumiju znanost, empirijske dokaze i činjenice,

then we are just simply going to be wandering along

srljat ćemo uokolo

to a potential catastrophe.

prema mogućoj katastrofi.

So I would say, the truth,

Rekla bih da je to istina,

and then I would come back to Emmanuel Macron

a zatim bih se vratila do Emmanuela Macrona

and talk about love.

i govorila o ljubavi.

I would say that there's not enough love going around.

Mislim da nema dovoljno ljubavi u svijetu.

And I asked him to tell me about love.

Pitala sam ga da mi kaže o ljubavi.

I said, "You know, your marriage is the subject of global obsession."

Rekla sam: "Vaš je brak predmet globalne opsesije."

(Laughter)

(Smijeh)

"Can you tell me about love?

"Kažite mi nešto o ljubavi.

What does it mean to you?"

Što ona znači za vas?"

Nikada nisam niti jednog predsjednika ni vođu pitala o ljubavi.

I've never asked a president or an elected leader about love.

Htjela sam pokušati.

I thought I'd try it.

And he said -- you know, he actually answered it.

I odgovorio je i na to.

And he said, "I love my wife, she is part of me,

Rekao je: "Volim svoju ženu, ona je dio mene,

we've been together for decades."

zajedno smo već desetljećima."

But here's where it really counted,

Ali onda je došao do onog važnog,

what really stuck with me.

što sam zapamtila.

He said,

Rekao je:

"It is so important for me to have somebody at home

"Važno mi je da me kod kuće čeka netko

who tells me the truth."

tko mi govori istinu."

So you see, I brought it home. It's all about the truth.

Vidite, vratila sam se na početak. Sve je u istini.

(Smijeh)

(Laughter)

CH: Evo ga. Istina i ljubav. Ideje koje vrijedi dijeliti.

CH: So there you go. Truth and love. Ideas worth spreading.

Christiane Amanpour, puno hvala. Bilo je sjajno.

Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much. That was great.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

CA: Thank you. CH: That was really lovely.

CA: Hvala. CH: Bilo je zaista lijepo.

(Applause)

(Pljesak)

CA: Thank you.

CA: Hvala.