How to seek truth in the era of fake news | Christiane Amanpour

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Helen Chang

Chris Anderson: Christiane, great to have you here.

克里斯安德森：克莉絲蒂安， 很高興你今天能來。

So you've had this amazing viewpoint,

所以，你有個很棒的觀點，

and perhaps it's fair to say that in the last few years,

也許可以說，在過去的幾年間，

there have been some alarming developments that you're seeing.

你看見了一些令人擔憂的發展。

What's alarmed you most?

最讓你擔憂的是什麼？

Christiane Amanpour: Well, just listening to the earlier speakers,

克莉絲蒂安艾曼普：嗯， 聽了前幾位講者的演說，

I can frame it in what they've been saying:

我可以借用他們所說的來表達：

climate change, for instance -- cities, the threat to our environment

比如，氣候改變、城市， 對我們的環境

and our lives.

以及生活的威脅。

It basically also boils down to understanding the truth

基本上，可以歸結到了解真相，

and to be able to get to the truth of what we're talking about

並能夠針對我們 談論的議題去探究真相，

in order to really be able to solve it.

才能夠真正去解決它。

So if 99.9 percent of the science on climate

所以，如果 99.9% 的氣候科學

is empirical, scientific evidence,

都是實證的、科學的證據，

but it's competing almost equally with a handful of deniers,

但卻在與少數駁斥者 幾乎平頭式地競爭，

that is not the truth;

那就不是真相，

that is the epitome of fake news.

而是假新聞的縮影。

And so for me, the last few years -- certainly this last year --

對我而言，過去幾年， 特別是最近這一年，

has crystallized the notion of fake news in a way that's truly alarming

假新聞的概念被以一種 很讓人擔憂的方式給具體化了，

and not just some slogan to be thrown around.

不再只是隨處喊喊的口號而已。

Because when you can't distinguish between the truth and fake news,

因為當你無法區別 真相和假新聞的差別時，

you have a very much more difficult time trying to solve

你就會更難去試圖解決

some of the great issues that we face.

我們面對的一些重大議題。

CA: Well, you've been involved in this question of,

克里斯：你涉入

what is balance, what is truth, what is impartiality,

什麼是平衡、什麼是真相、 什麼是公正這些問題，

for a long time.

已經很長一段時間。

You were on the front lines reporting the Balkan Wars 25 years ago.

25 年前，你在巴爾幹 戰爭的前線做報導。

And back then, you famously said,

那時，你說過一句名言，

by calling out human right abuses,

大聲說出人權被侵犯，

you said, "Look, there are some situations one simply cannot be neutral about,

你說：「聽著，有些狀況 就是無法中立去看待，

because when you're neutral,

因為當你中立時，

you are an accomplice."

你就是共犯。」

So, do you feel that today's journalists aren't heeding that advice

你覺得現今的記者沒有留意到

那個關於平衡的建議嗎？

about balance?

CA: Well, look, I think for journalists, objectivity is the golden rule.

克莉絲蒂安：我認為對記者而言， 客觀是黃金法則。

But I think sometimes we don't understand what objectivity means.

但我認為，有時我們 並不了解客觀的意義。

And I actually learned this very, very young in my career,

我在職涯的極早期已學到了這一點，

which was during the Balkan Wars.

當時是在巴爾幹戰爭的期間。

I was young then.

那時我很年輕。

It was about 25 years ago.

大約是 25 年前。

And what we faced was the wholesale violation, not just of human rights,

當時我們面對的是大規模的違反，

不只違反人權而已，

but all the way to ethnic cleansing and genocide,

而是一路到排除異族和種族滅絕，

and that has been adjudicated in the highest war crimes court

已經被世界最高戰犯法庭裁決了。

in the world.

So, we know what we were seeing.

我們知道我們看見了什麼。

Trying to tell the world what we were seeing

為了試圖告訴世界我們看見了什麼，

brought us accusations of bias,

導致我們被控訴，說我們有偏見、

of siding with one side,

選邊站、

of not seeing the whole side,

不看整體大局，

and just, you know, trying to tell one story.

而只述說單方片面的故事。

I particularly and personally was accused of siding with,

我個人還特別遭到控訴，

for instance, the citizens of Sarajevo --

比如說我站在塞拉耶佛市民的那一邊，

"siding with the Muslims,"

說我「站在穆斯林的那一邊」，

because they were the minority who were being attacked

因為在那裡他們是被攻擊的少數，

by Christians on the Serb side

被與塞爾維亞同一陣線的

基督徒攻擊。

in this area.

And it worried me.

那讓我憂心。

It worried me that I was being accused of this.

我憂心遭受這樣的指控，

I thought maybe I was wrong,

心想，也許我錯了，

maybe I'd forgotten what objectivity was.

也許我忘了客觀是什麼。

But then I started to understand that what people wanted

接著我開始了解，人們想要的

was actually not to do anything --

其實是什麼都不做，

not to step in,

不要涉入，

not to change the situation,

不要去改變局勢，

not to find a solution.

不要去找解決方案。

And so, their fake news at that time,

所以，那時他們的假新聞，

their lie at that time --

那時說謊的

including our government's, our democratically elected government's,

包括我們的政府，我們的民選政府，

with values and principles of human rights --

有著人權價值和原則的政府，

their lie was to say that all sides are equally guilty,

他們的謊言是，每一方都同等有罪，

that this has been centuries of ethnic hatred,

這是由數百世紀的民族仇恨造成的；

whereas we knew that wasn't true,

而我們知道那並非事實，

that one side had decided to kill, slaughter and ethnically cleanse

而是一方鐵了心要屠殺另一方，

another side.

滅絕異族。

So that is where, for me,

所以，就在當時我了解到

I understood that objectivity means giving all sides an equal hearing

客觀意味著

給每一方被傾聽的平等機會，

and talking to all sides,

並跟每一方都談，

but not treating all sides equally,

而不是平等對待每一方，

not creating a forced moral equivalence or a factual equivalence.

不是勉強造出道德等值或事實等值。

And when you come up against that crisis point

當你面對國際法及人權法

in situations of grave violations of international and humanitarian law,

被重大違反的危機關口，

if you don't understand what you're seeing,

如果你不了解你看到了什麼，

if you don't understand the truth

如果你不了解真相，

and if you get trapped in the fake news paradigm,

如果你被假新聞寫作典範給困住，

then you are an accomplice.

那麼你就是個共犯。

And I refuse to be an accomplice to genocide.

而我拒絕成為種族屠殺的共犯。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CH: So there have always been these propaganda battles,

克里斯：所以，宣傳戰一直存在著，

and you were courageous in taking the stand you took back then.

而你那時有勇氣採取了堅定的立場。

Today, there's a whole new way, though,

不過，現今有了全新的

in which news seems to be becoming fake.

新聞變成假新聞的方式。

How would you characterize that?

你會如何描述它的特性？

CA: Well, look -- I am really alarmed.

克莉絲蒂安：嗯，我真的很憂心。

And everywhere I look,

放眼任何地方，

you know, we're buffeted by it.

我們都不斷遭受它的衝擊。

Obviously, when the leader of the free world,

顯然，當自由世界的領袖，

when the most powerful person in the entire world,

當整個世界最有權勢的人，

which is the president of the United States --

也就是美國總統──

this is the most important, most powerful country in the whole world,

美國是全世界最重要、 最有權勢的國家，

economically, militarily, politically in every which way --

在經濟、軍事、政治， 每個面向都是──

and it seeks to, obviously, promote its values and power around the world.

很顯然尋求要在全世界 提升價值和權勢。

So we journalists, who only seek the truth --

所以我們這些只尋求真相的記者，

I mean, that is our mission --

懷抱我們的使命，

we go around the world looking for the truth

跑遍世界去尋找真相，

in order to be everybody's eyes and ears,

要成為那些無法去到 世界各地的人的眼睛和耳朵，

people who can't go out in various parts of the world

to figure out what's going on about things that are vitally important

我們要找出發生了哪些事，

哪些事會大大影響 每個人的健康與安全。

to everybody's health and security.

So when you have a major world leader accusing you of fake news,

所以，當那個主要的世界領袖

指控你做假新聞時，

it has an exponential ripple effect.

會引起呈指數成長的漣漪效應，

And what it does is, it starts to chip away

造成的結果是開始一點一點削弱

at not just our credibility,

不只我們的信用，

but at people's minds --

還有人們的理智與主見。

people who look at us, and maybe they're thinking,

人們看著我們，也許他們在想，

"Well, if the president of the United States says that,

「嗯，如果美國總統都那樣說了，

maybe somewhere there's a truth in there."

也許或多或少是真的。」

CH: Presidents have always been critical of the media --

克里斯：總統們向來都對媒體很不滿──

CA: Not in this way.

克莉絲蒂安：不是現在這樣的方式。

CH: So, to what extent --

克里斯：所以，到什麼程度──

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CH: I mean, someone a couple years ago looking at the avalanche of information

克里斯：我是說，幾年前

如果有人看見大量資訊湧入，

pouring through Twitter and Facebook and so forth,

資訊從 Twitter 及 Facebook 等地湧入，

might have said,

他可能會說：

"Look, our democracies are healthier than they've ever been.

「我們未曾像現在這麼民主。

There's more news than ever.

新聞量遠多於過去。

Of course presidents will say what they'll say,

當然，總統們會說他們要說的話，

but everyone else can say what they will say.

但其他人也都可以說自己想說的。

What's not to like? How is there an extra danger?"

有什麼不好？為什麼 會存在額外的危險呢？」

CA: So, I wish that was true.

克莉絲蒂安：我希望那是真的。

I wish that the proliferation of platforms upon which we get our information

我希望

資訊來源平台的數量激增

meant that there was a proliferation of truth and transparency

意味著真相和透明度激增，

and depth and accuracy.

深度和正確性也激增。

But I think the opposite has happened.

但我認為，實際發生的恰恰相反。

You know, I'm a little bit of a Luddite,

我承認自己有點算是盧德份子。 （註：反對技術革新的人）

I will confess.

Even when we started to talk about the information superhighway,

即使當我們開始談到資訊高速公路，

which was a long time ago,

那是很久以前了，

before social media, Twitter and all the rest of it,

在社交媒體、Twitter、 這類平台之前，

I was actually really afraid

其實那時我很害怕，

that that would put people into certain lanes and tunnels

怕它會把人們放到某些線道或隧道，

and have them just focusing on areas of their own interest

使他們只聚焦在自己感興趣的領域，

instead of seeing the broad picture.

而不是放寬視野去看大局。

And I'm afraid to say that with algorithms, with logarithms,

我很怕演算法、對數

with whatever the "-ithms" are

這類東西被用來

that direct us into all these particular channels of information,

引領我們到特定的資訊管道，

that seems to be happening right now.

而這正似乎是現在正在發生的情形。

I mean, people have written about this phenomenon.

人們已經在寫關於這個現象的文章，

People have said that yes, the internet came,

人們說，是的，網際網路到來了，

its promise was to exponentially explode our access to more democracy,

它承諾讓我們能大量接觸更多民主、

more information,

更多資訊、

less bias,

較少偏見、

more varied information.

和更多樣化的資訊。

And, in fact, the opposite has happened.

但事實上，發生的情形相反。

And so that, for me, is incredibly dangerous.

所以對我來說，那是相當危險的。

And again, when you are the president of this country and you say things,

同樣的，若你身為國家總統，

it also gives leaders in other undemocratic countries the cover

你的發言會掩護 其他不民主國家的領袖，

to affront us even worse,

讓他們能進一步冒犯我們，

and to really whack us -- and their own journalists --

揮著假新聞的棍棒紮紮實實痛擊我們

with this bludgeon of fake news.

和他們自己的記者。

CH: To what extent is what happened, though,

克里斯：單就已經發生的事來說，

in part, just an unintended consequence,

非蓄意的後果到了什麼程度？

that the traditional media that you worked in

你所從事的傳統媒體業

had this curation-mediation role,

扮演著調解和處理資訊的角色，

where certain norms were observed,

遵從某些基準，

certain stories would be rejected because they weren't credible,

駁回一些不可信的故事。

but now that the standard for publication and for amplification

但現在

出版和散播的標準

is just interest, attention, excitement, click,

只剩下有趣、注意力、 刺激、點閱數，

"Did it get clicked on?"

「它被點閱了嗎？」

"Send it out there!"

「把它發出去！」

and that's what's -- is that part of what's caused the problem?

那是造成問題的部分原因嗎？

克莉絲蒂安：我認為這是個大問題， 2016 年的大選已看到這現象，

CA: I think it's a big problem, and we saw this in the election of 2016,

where the idea of "clickbait" was very sexy and very attractive,

那時，點閱誘餌是非常性感、 非常有吸引力的，

and so all these fake news sites and fake news items

因此所有這些假新聞網站 及一則則假新聞

were not just haphazardly and by happenstance being put out there,

並不是隨意或偶然被放在那裡，

there's been a whole industry in the creation of fake news

而是有一整個產業在製造假新聞，

in parts of Eastern Europe, wherever,

在部份東歐地區，無論是哪，

and you know, it's planted in real space and in cyberspace.

假新聞被植入實體和網路的空間中。

So I think that, also,

所以我也認為，

the ability of our technology to proliferate this stuff

我們的科技有能力 將這類東西擴散出去，

at the speed of sound or light, just about --

擴散的速度幾近音速或光速，

we've never faced that before.

這是我們未曾面對過的。

And we've never faced such a massive amount of information

我們未曾面對過

如此大量、未經彙整的資訊，

which is not curated

未被那些身負把關職則、

by those whose profession leads them to abide by the truth,

必須確認事實的真相、

to fact-check

and to maintain a code of conduct and a code of professional ethics.

並維持職業倫理準則 與行為準則的那些人

所彙整過的資訊。

CH: Many people here may know people who work at Facebook

克里斯：這裡許多人可能認識 在 Facebook、Twitter、

or Twitter and Google and so on.

Google 等公司工作的人。

They all seem like great people with good intention --

他們都看似很棒、有著良善的意圖，

let's assume that.

就讓我們先這樣假設。

If you could speak with the leaders of those companies,

若你能和這些公司的領導人說話，

what would you say to them?

你會對他們說什麼？

CA: Well, you know what --

克莉絲蒂安：你知道嗎，

I'm sure they are incredibly well-intentioned,

我相信他們的意圖都是非常良善的，

and they certainly developed an unbelievable, game-changing system,

他們確實發展出令人難以置信 並且改變遊戲規則的系統，

where everybody's connected on this thing called Facebook.

每個人都在這個名叫 Facebook 的東西上彼此連結。

And they've created a massive economy for themselves

他們為自己創造出大規模的經濟、

and an amazing amount of income.

以及驚人的收入。

I would just say,

我只會說：

"Guys, you know, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee

「各位，該是醒來的時候了， 聞一聞咖啡、看看現在

and look at what's happening to us right now."

在我們身上發生了那些事。」

Mark Zuckerberg wants to create a global community.

馬克祖克柏想要創造一個全球社群。

I want to know: What is that global community going to look like?

我想要知道：這個全球社群 看起來會是什麼樣子？

I want to know where the codes of conduct actually are.

我想要知道行為準則到底在哪裡。

Mark Zuckerberg said --

馬克祖克柏說──

and I don't blame him, he probably believed this --

我不怪他，他可能確實相信這點──

that it was crazy to think

他說，如果認為俄國人

that the Russians or anybody else could be tinkering and messing around

或是其他人可以在用這裡胡搞亂弄，

with this avenue.

那就太瘋狂了。

And what have we just learned in the last few weeks?

我們在前幾週剛剛學到了什麼？

That, actually, there has been a major problem in that regard,

我們得知其實那方面的問題大得很，

and now they're having to investigate it and figure it out.

現在他們得要調查到底怎麼一回事。

Yes, they're trying to do what they can now

是的，他們目前正傾力試著

to prevent the rise of fake news,

防止假新聞興起，

but, you know,

但你知道，

it went pretty unrestricted for a long, long time.

長久以來，假新聞一直未曾受限。

So I guess I would say, you know,

所以，我想我會說，

you guys are brilliant at technology;

你們在科技方面才華橫溢，

let's figure out another algorithm.

咱們來想出另一個演算法，

Can we not?

行吧？

CH: An algorithm that includes journalistic investigation --

克里斯：一個包含 新聞調查的演算法──

CA: I don't really know how they do it, but somehow, you know --

克莉絲蒂安：其實我不清楚他們 怎麼做，但總要以某種方式

filter out the crap!

把狗屁都過濾掉！

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And not just the unintentional --

不僅僅濾掉非蓄意的，

(Applause)

（掌聲）

but the deliberate lies that are planted

也要濾掉刻意植入的謊言，

by people who've been doing this as a matter of warfare

由數十年來習以為常 把假新聞當作戰爭手段的那些人

for decades.

所植入的謊言。

The Soviets, the Russians --

蘇聯人、俄國人，

they are the masters of war by other means, of hybrid warfare.

他們是利用另類手法 製造戰爭的大師，是混合戰的大師。

And this is a --

假新聞是他們決定採取的手段。

this is what they've decided to do.

It worked in the United States,

在美國奏效了，

it didn't work in France,

在法國行不通，

it hasn't worked in Germany.

在德國還沒有用上。

During the elections there, where they've tried to interfere,

選舉期間，他們試圖干預，

the president of France right now, Emmanuel Macron,

法國的現任總統埃瑪紐耶爾馬克宏

took a very tough stand and confronted it head on,

採取非常強硬的立場正面迎戰，

as did Angela Merkel.

安格拉梅克爾也一樣。 （註：德國總理）

CH: There's some hope to be had from some of this, isn't there?

克里斯：這當中是有些希望的吧？

That the world learns.

世界在學習。

We get fooled once,

我們被騙過一次，

maybe we get fooled again,

也許我們會再被騙一次，

but maybe not the third time.

但也許不會犯第三次錯。

Is that true?

是這樣的嗎？

CA: I mean, let's hope.

克莉絲蒂安：咱們就希望如此吧。

But I think in this regard that so much of it is also about technology,

但我認為，在這方面 有很大一部份和科技相關，

that the technology has to also be given some kind of moral compass.

科技也得要有某種道德羅盤。

I know I'm talking nonsense, but you know what I mean.

我知道我在說廢話， 但你們明白我的意思。

CH: We need a filter-the-crap algorithm with a moral compass --

克里斯：我們需要一個道德羅盤 過濾狗屁的演算法。

CA: There you go.

克莉絲蒂安：你說對了。

CH: I think that's good.

克里斯：我認為那很好。

CA: No -- "moral technology."

克莉絲蒂安：不，「道德科技」。

We all have moral compasses -- moral technology.

我們都要有道德羅盤──道德科技。

CH: I think that's a great challenge. CA: You know what I mean.

克里斯：我認為那是個大挑戰。 克莉絲蒂安：你懂我的意思。

CH: Talk just a minute about leadership.

克里斯：花一分鐘談談領導。

You've had a chance to speak with so many people across the world.

你有和世上那麼多人說話的機會。

I think for some of us --

我認為我們當中有些人──

I speak for myself, I don't know if others feel this --

我代表自己發言， 不知道其他人是否有同感──

there's kind of been a disappointment of:

一直懷有這樣的失望：

Where are the leaders?

領導人在哪裡？

So many of us have been disappointed --

我們這麼多人一直覺得失望──

Aung San Suu Kyi, what's happened recently,

翁山蘇姬最近怎麼搞的，

it's like, "No! Another one bites the dust."

就像是：「不好！又陣亡了一個。」

You know, it's heartbreaking.

很讓人心碎。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Who have you met

你遇過誰，

who you have been impressed by, inspired by?

你對誰印象的深刻、受到誰鼓舞呢？

CA: Well, you talk about the world in crisis,

克莉絲蒂安：你談到 世界正處在危機當中，

which is absolutely true,

這點絕對是真的，

and those of us who spend our whole lives immersed in this crisis --

我們這些一生埋首在危機中的人──

I mean, we're all on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

我是說，我們都在精神崩潰的邊緣。

So it's pretty stressful right now.

所以，現在壓力很大。

And you're right --

且你是對的，

there is this perceived and actual vacuum of leadership,

我的確感受到領導的空缺狀態， 實際上也是如此，

and it's not me saying it, I ask all these --

且不只是我這樣說，我問了所有

whoever I'm talking to, I ask about leadership.

與我對話過的人關於領導。

I was speaking to the outgoing president of Liberia today,

我今天在和賴比瑞亞 即將離職的總統談話，

[Ellen Johnson Sirleaf,]

艾倫強森瑟利夫，

who --

她

(Applause)

（掌聲）

in three weeks' time,

在三週後，

will be one of the very rare heads of an African country

她將會成為非常少數真正遵循憲法，

who actually abides by the constitution

在規定任期結束後

and gives up power after her prescribed term.

就交出權力的非洲國家領袖之一。

She has said she wants to do that as a lesson.

她說她想要那麼做，教大家一課。

But when I asked her about leadership,

但當我向她問到領導時，

and I gave a quick-fire round of certain names,

我快速丟給她一堆名字，

I presented her with the name of the new French president,

我提到新法國總統的名字，

Emmanuel Macron.

埃瑪紐耶爾馬克宏。

And she said --

她說──

I said, "So what do you think when I say his name?"

我問：「你覺得他如何？」

And she said,

她說：

"Shaping up potentially to be

「有潛力能夠成為

a leader to fill our current leadership vacuum."

填補目前領導真空的領袖。」

I thought that was really interesting.

我覺得那十分有趣。

Yesterday, I happened to have an interview with him.

正巧昨天我剛訪問馬克宏。

I'm very proud to say,

我能很驕傲地說，

I got his first international interview. It was great. It was yesterday.

我得到他的首次國際訪談。 很順利。那是昨天的事。

And I was really impressed.

我的印象非常深刻。

I don't know whether I should be saying that in an open forum,

不知道我是否該在 公開的論壇中這樣說，

but I was really impressed.

但我印象非常深刻。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And it could be just because it was his first interview,

可能只因為那是他的首次訪談，

but -- I asked questions, and you know what?

但我問了問題，你們知道怎樣嗎？

He answered them!

他回答了問題！

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

(Applause)

（掌聲）

There was no spin,

沒繞圈圈，

there was no wiggle and waggle,

沒閃避，

there was no spend-five-minutes- to-come-back-to-the-point.

沒花五分鐘才回到重點。

I didn't have to keep interrupting,

不需要我一直打斷，

which I've become rather renowned for doing,

我以訪談時打斷對方而聞名，

because I want people to answer the question.

因為想要他們回答我的問題。

And he answered me,

他回答了我，

and it was pretty interesting.

那十分有趣。

And he said --

他說──

CH: Tell me what he said.

克里斯：告訴我他說了什麼。

CA: No, no, you go ahead.

克莉絲蒂安：不，不，你先說。

CH: You're the interrupter, I'm the listener.

克里斯：你是打斷專家，我是聽眾。

CA: No, no, go ahead.

克莉絲蒂安：不，不，請說。

CH: What'd he say?

克里斯：他說了什麼？

CA: OK. You've talked about nationalism and tribalism here today.

克莉絲蒂安：好，今天在這裡談到 民族主義和對部族的忠誠。

I asked him, "How did you have the guts to confront the prevailing winds

我問他：「你怎麼有膽子去對抗

of anti-globalization, nationalism, populism

反全球化、民族主義、 民粹主義的主流趨勢，特別是

when you can see what happened in Brexit,

當你看到英國脫歐發生的情況，

when you could see what happened in the United States

當你看到在美國發生的狀況，

and what might have happened in many European elections

以及 2017 年初許多歐洲選舉

at the beginning of 2017?"

本來可能發生的狀況呢？」

And he said,

而他說：

"For me, nationalism means war.

「對我來說，民族主義意味著戰爭。

We have seen it before,

我們以前就看過了，

we have lived through it before on my continent,

我們以前在歐陸經歷過了，

and I am very clear about that."

而我非常清楚這一點。」

So he was not going to, just for political expediency,

所以他並不只求政治的眼前利益，

embrace the, kind of, lowest common denominator

像是擁抱最小共同點，

that had been embraced in other political elections.

其他的政治選舉都會去 擁抱最小共同點。

And he stood against Marine Le Pen, who is a very dangerous woman.

而他對抗瑪琳勒朋， 瑪琳勒朋是個很危險的女人。

CH: Last question for you, Christiane.

克里斯：克莉絲蒂安，最後一個問題。

TED is about ideas worth spreading.

和我們談談值得散播的想法。

If you could plant one idea into the minds of everyone here,

如果你能在這裡的每個人 腦中植入一個想法，

what would that be?

會是什麼？

CA: I would say really be careful where you get your information from;

克莉絲蒂安：我會說， 要非常留意你的資訊來自何處；

really take responsibility for what you read, listen to and watch;

要對你所讀到、聽到、 看到的資訊主動負責；

make sure that you go to the trusted brands to get your main information,

確保你的主要資訊必須是從 可信任的品牌那兒取得的，

no matter whether you have a wide, eclectic intake,

不論資訊的來源 有多麼廣泛或是多麼多樣化，

really stick with the brand names that you know,

一定要守住你認識的品牌，

because in this world right now, at this moment right now,

因為在這個世界中，在目前這時刻，

our crises, our challenges, our problems are so severe,

我們的危機、我們的挑戰、 我們的問題，都非常嚴重，

that unless we are all engaged as global citizens

除非我們都能以 全球市民的身份來參與，

who appreciate the truth,

能夠意識到真相，

who understand science, empirical evidence and facts,

能夠了解科學、實證證據與事實，

then we are just simply going to be wandering along

不然我們就只會離開正道，

to a potential catastrophe.

走向潛在的大災難。

So I would say, the truth,

所以我會說「真相」，

and then I would come back to Emmanuel Macron

接著我會回到埃瑪紐耶爾馬克宏，

and talk about love.

並且談「愛」。

I would say that there's not enough love going around.

我會說，還沒有足夠的愛。

And I asked him to tell me about love.

我請他和我談談愛。

I said, "You know, your marriage is the subject of global obsession."

我說：「你的婚姻 是全球都很迷戀的目標。」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

"Can you tell me about love?

「你能跟我談談愛嗎？

What does it mean to you?"

對你而言愛是什麼？」

I've never asked a president or an elected leader about love.

我從未請總統或民選領袖 跟我談論愛這議題，

I thought I'd try it.

我想試一試。

And he said -- you know, he actually answered it.

而他──你們知道嗎， 他真的回答了。

And he said, "I love my wife, she is part of me,

他說：「我愛我太太， 她是我的一部份，

we've been together for decades."

我們在一起數十年了。」

But here's where it really counted,

但真正重要，

what really stuck with me.

真正讓我難忘的是

He said,

他說：

"It is so important for me to have somebody at home

「對我來說，家裡 有個人能告訴我真相

who tells me the truth."

是非常重要的事。」

So you see, I brought it home. It's all about the truth.

看，我把話帶回到主題了， 重點就是真相。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

CH: So there you go. Truth and love. Ideas worth spreading.

克里斯：有你的。真相和愛。 值得散播的想法。

Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much. That was great.

克莉絲蒂安艾曼普， 非常謝謝你。很棒的訪談。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: Thank you. CH: That was really lovely.

克莉絲蒂安：謝謝您。 克里斯：訪談非常愉快。

(Applause)

（掌聲）

CA: Thank you.

克莉絲蒂安：謝謝。