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譯者: Lilian Chiu
審譯者: congmei Han
00:12
Some days, it feels like
the only thing we can agree on
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有些時候,感覺起來,
我們唯一能夠取得的共識就是
00:16
is that we can't agree on anything.
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我們沒有任何共識。
00:20
Public discourse is broken.
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公眾論述已經出了問題。
00:23
And we feel that everywhere --
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我們覺得,所有地方——
00:24
panelists on TV
are screaming at each other,
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電視節目上的與談人
對著彼此嚷叫,
00:27
we go online to find
community and connection,
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我們上網去找社群和連結,
00:30
and we end up leaving
feeling angry and alienated.
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最後卻感到格格不入,
氣呼呼地離開。
00:34
In everyday life, probably
because everyone else is yelling,
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在日常生活中,
可能因為每個人都在吼叫,
00:38
we are so scared to get into an argument
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我們很害怕捲入
完全不願意參與的爭執當中。
00:41
that we're willing not to engage at all.
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00:44
Contempt has replaced conversation.
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輕視已經取代了對話。
00:49
My mission in life is to help us
disagree productively.
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我人生的任務就是要協助我們
用有生產力的方式來表示不同意。
00:54
To find ways to bring truth to light,
to bring new ideas to life.
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找到方式,將真相揭露出來,
讓新想法有生存空間。
01:00
I think -- I hope --
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我認為——我希望——
01:02
that there is a model
for structured disagreement
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有一個模型可用來
有結構地表示不同意,
01:04
that's kind of mutually respectful
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且它要確保雙方互相尊重,
01:08
and assumes a genuine desire
to persuade and be persuaded.
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並且假設雙方都是真心
想要去說服和被說服。
01:12
And to uncover it,
let me take you back a little bit.
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在揭開它的面紗之前,
讓我先帶各位回首一下過去。
01:16
So, when I was 10 years old,
I loved arguing.
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我十歲時,很喜歡爭論。
01:21
This, like, tantalizing possibility
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其誘人的地方在於你有可能
01:23
that you could convince someone
of your point of view,
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可以讓別人接受你的觀點,
01:26
just with the power of your words.
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且只靠你話語的力量就辦到。
01:30
And perhaps unsurprisingly,
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可能不太讓人意外,
01:31
my parents and teachers
loved this somewhat less.
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我的父母和老師就沒有
這麼喜歡這件事了。
01:35
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
01:36
And in much the same way as they decided
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就如同他們認定
01:38
that four-year-old Julia might benefit
from gymnastics to burn off some energy,
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四歲的我用練體操
來消耗一些能量會比較好,
01:42
they decided that I might benefit
from joining a debate team.
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他們也認定我加入
辯論小組會比較好。
01:45
That is, kind of, go somewhere
to argue where they were not.
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這有點像是,去他們
看不見的地方爭論。
01:49
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
01:51
For the uninitiated,
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對於不諳此道的人來說,
正式辯論的前提是非常直接的:
01:53
the premises of formal debate
are really straightforward:
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01:55
there's a big idea on the table --
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有一個很大的想法被提出來——
01:57
that we support civil disobedience,
that we favor free trade --
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可能是我們支持公民不服從,
可能是我們偏好自由貿易——
02:02
and one group of people
who speaks in favor of that idea,
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然後一組人要支持這個想法,
02:05
and one against.
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另一組則反對。
02:08
My first debate
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我的第一次辯論是在坎培拉女子
文法學校中空落的會堂裡進行,
02:09
in the cavernous auditorium
of Canberra Girls Grammar School
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02:12
was kind of a bundle
of all of the worst mistakes
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我差不多把你在
有線電視新聞上所看到
所有最糟糕的錯誤通通都犯了。
02:16
that you see on cable news.
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02:18
It felt easier to me to attack
the person making the argument
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我覺得,攻擊在做
論述的人比較容易,
02:22
rather than the substance
of the ideas themselves.
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攻擊想法本身的本質比較困難。
02:25
When that same person challenged my ideas,
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當同一個人挑戰我的想法時,
02:29
it felt terrible, I felt
humiliated and ashamed.
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感覺很差,我會覺得
被羞辱且很丟臉。
02:33
And it felt to me like
the sophisticated response to that
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我覺得,在那樣的情況下,
最老練的反應
02:36
was to be as extreme as possible.
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應該是要做到越極端越好。
02:40
And despite this very shaky entry
into the world of debate, I loved it.
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雖然我的這次入場踉踉蹌蹌,
我還是很愛辯論。
02:45
I saw the possibility, and over many years
worked really hard at it,
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我看見了可能性,
在許多年的非常努力之後,
02:50
became really skilled
at the technical craft of debate.
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我對於辯論的技藝變得非常在行。
02:54
I went on to win the World Schools
Debating Championships three times.
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我接著在世界中學辯論大賽
三次奪冠。
02:58
I know, you're just finding out
that this is a thing.
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我知道,你們剛剛才知道
原來有這種東西。
03:00
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
03:04
But it wasn't until
I started coaching debaters,
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但,一直到我開始指導
03:07
persuaders who are really
at the top of their game,
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最優秀的辯論者、說服者,
03:11
that I actually got it.
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我才真正懂得了辯論。
03:13
The way that you reach people
is by finding common ground.
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要影響別人,其實
需要的是找到共同點。
03:18
It's by separating ideas from identity
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重點是要把想法和身分拆開來看,
03:21
and being genuinely open to persuasion.
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且要真心地開放接受說服。
03:24
Debate is a way to organize conversations
about how the world is, could, should be.
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辯論是一種將對話整理起來的方式,
關於「世界是怎樣的/世界能變成
怎樣/應該是怎樣的」的對話。
03:32
Or to put it another way,
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換一種方式來說明,
我很樂意將我的指南提供給各位,
03:33
I would love to offer you
my experience-backed,
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它有經驗支持,且經過測試,
03:37
evidence-tested guide
to talking to your cousin about politics
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能幫助你在下次的家庭聚餐上
和你的表親談政治;
03:40
at your next family dinner;
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03:42
reorganizing the way in which your team
debates new proposals;
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知道你的團隊要改用什麼方式
來針對新的提案做辯論;
03:46
thinking about how we change
our public conversation.
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並思考我們要如何改變
我們的公眾對話。
03:50
And so, as an entry point into that:
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所以,切入點是:
03:52
debate requires that we engage
with the conflicting idea,
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辯論需要我們去和衝突的想法交手,
03:57
directly, respectfully, face to face.
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直接面對面交手,且不失尊重。
04:01
The foundation of debate is rebuttal.
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辯論的基礎是反駁。
04:03
The idea that you make a claim
and I provide a response,
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它的想法是,你提出一項主張,
我提供一個回應,
04:07
and you respond to my response.
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你再針對我的回應來回應。
04:10
Without rebuttal, it's not debate,
it's just pontificating.
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沒有反駁就不是辯論,
只是自以為是地說話。
04:14
And I had originally imagined
that the most successful debaters,
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原本,在我的想像中,
最成功的辯論者,
04:18
really excellent persuaders,
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真正出色的說服者,
04:20
must be great at going to extremes.
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一定是很擅長做到極端。
04:24
They must have some magical ability
to make the polarizing palatable.
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他們一定有某種神奇能力
讓兩極化變得可接受。
04:31
And it took me a really
long time to figure out
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我花了好長的時間,才了解到,
04:34
that the opposite is actually true.
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事實完全相反。
04:38
People who disagree the most productively
start by finding common ground,
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用最有生產力的方式表示不同意的人,
一開始其實是先找共同點,
04:43
no matter how narrow it is.
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不論共同點有多難找。
04:45
They identify the thing
that we can all agree on
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他們會找出大家都能認同的點,
04:48
and go from there:
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從那裡開始:
04:50
the right to an education,
equality between all people,
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受教育的權利、所有人的平等、
04:55
the importance of safer communities.
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更安全的社區有多重要。
04:58
What they're doing is inviting us
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他們在做的,是邀請我們
進入心理學家所謂的共同現實。
04:59
into what psychologists
call shared reality.
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05:04
And shared reality
is the antidote to alternative facts.
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共同現實是替代事實的解藥。
05:10
The conflict, of course, is still there.
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當然,衝突仍然存在。
05:13
That's why it's a debate.
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那就是辯論之所以稱為辯論的原因。
05:15
Shared reality just gives us
a platform to start to talk about it.
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共同現實只是給我們一個平台,
讓我們能夠開始談事情。
05:20
But the trick of debate
is that you end up doing it directly,
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但辯論的竅門是,你最後會直接
和對方坐下來面對面進行。
05:24
face to face, across the table.
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05:26
And research backs up
that that really matters.
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研究支持這一點,
證明它真的很重要。
05:30
Professor Juliana Schroeder
at UC Berkeley and her colleagues
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加州大學柏克萊分校的
茱莉安娜施羅德教授和她的同事
05:34
have research that suggests
that listening to someone's voice
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所做的研究顯示,當一個人
在說明有爭議性的論點時,
05:38
as they make a controversial argument
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傾聽他的表述,才是真正的有人性。
05:40
is literally humanizing.
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05:42
It makes it easier to engage
with what that person has to say.
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才會更容易去應對他所說的話。
05:47
So, step away from the keyboards,
start conversing.
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所以,離開鍵盤,開始對話。
05:52
And if we are to expand
that notion a little bit,
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如果我們把那個概念
再擴大一點點,
05:54
nothing is stopping us from pressing pause
on a parade of keynote speeches,
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沒有什麼能阻止我們按下暫停鍵,
停下一連串的專題演說、
06:01
the sequence of very polite
panel discussions,
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一連串非常有禮貌的小組討論,
06:05
and replacing some of that
with a structured debate.
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並將其中某些置換成
有結構性的辯論。
06:09
All of our conferences could have,
at their centerpiece,
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我們所有的會議都可以在核心上
06:12
a debate over the biggest,
most controversial ideas in the field.
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針對該領域中最大、
最有爭議性的想法進行辯論。
06:17
Each of our weekly team meetings
could devote 10 minutes
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我們每週的團隊會議
可以騰出十分鐘
06:21
to a debate about a proposal to change
the way in which that team works.
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針對一項改變團隊
工作方式的提案進行辯論。
06:26
And as innovative ideas go,
this one is both easy and free.
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就創新想法來說,
這個創新想法既容易又免費。
06:31
You could start tomorrow.
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你明天就可以開始。
06:33
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
06:34
And once we're inside this shared reality,
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一旦我們進入了共同現實,
06:37
debate also requires
that we separate ideas
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辯論也需要我們將想法
和討論想法的人的身分區別開來。
06:41
from the identity
of the person discussing them.
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06:45
So in formal debate, nothing is a topic
unless it is controversial:
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在正式辯論中,
有爭議性的主題才算是主題:
06:49
that we should raise
the voting age, outlaw gambling.
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我們應該要提高投票的年齡、
讓賭博不合法。
06:54
But the debaters don't choose their sides.
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但辯論者不能選擇要站在哪一邊。
06:58
So that's why it makes no sense
to do what 10-year-old Julia did.
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那就是為什麼把我十歲時的做法
搬過來是不合理的。
07:02
Attacking the identity of the person
making the argument is irrelevant,
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攻擊論點闡述者的身分是不恰當的,
07:07
because they didn't choose it.
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因為那不是他們能選擇的。
07:09
Your only winning strategy
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你唯一的致勝策略
07:12
is to engage with the best, clearest,
least personal version of the idea.
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就是去採用最好、
最清楚、最不個人化的想法。
07:20
And it might sound impossible
or naive to imagine
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你能把那種觀念帶到
高中會堂以外的地方
07:24
that you could ever take that notion
outside the high school auditorium.
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聽起來似乎不可能,
或是這樣的想像太天真了。
07:28
We spend so much time dismissing ideas
as democrat or republican.
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我們像民主黨或共和黨那樣,
花太多時間在駁斥對方的想法。
07:35
Rejecting proposals
because they came from headquarters,
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拒絕提案的原因
是因為它來自總部,
07:38
or from a region
that we think is not like ours.
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或是來自我們認為
跟我們不一樣的區域。
07:42
But it is possible.
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但它(將觀點和身分區分開)
是有可能的。
07:44
When I work with teams,
trying to come up with the next big idea,
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當我和團隊合作時,
試圖想出下一個偉大的點子,
07:48
or solve a really complex problem,
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或是解決一個非常困難的問題,
07:51
I start by asking them, all of them,
to submit ideas anonymously.
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我一開始會要求他們所有人
暱名將想法提交出來。
07:57
So by way of illustration, two years ago,
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舉個例子,兩年前,
07:59
I was working with multiple
government agencies
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我和好幾個政府機關合作,
08:02
to generate new solutions
to reduce long-term unemployment.
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產生出新的解決方案,
來減低長期失業率。
08:06
Which is one of those really wicked,
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這是那些非常惡劣、棘手,
08:08
sticky, well-studied
public policy problems.
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且有相當多研究的公共政策問題。
08:12
So exactly as I described,
right at the beginning,
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所以,正如同我一開頭所描述的,
08:15
potential solutions were captured
from everywhere.
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可能的解決方案俯拾皆是。
08:18
We aggregated them,
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我們將它們整合,
08:20
each of them was produced
on an identical template.
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每個解決方案都基於
一個同樣的樣板。
08:23
At this point, they all look the same,
they have no separate identity.
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此時,它們看起來都一樣,
沒有不同的身分。
08:27
And then, of course,
they are discussed, picked over,
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接著,當然,它們會被討論、
挑選、精製、最後定案。
08:31
refined, finalized.
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08:33
And at the end of that process,
more than 20 of those new ideas
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在過程的最後,
那些新想法當中有超過二十個
08:36
are presented to the cabinet ministers
responsible for consideration.
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被拿來簡報給負責
做考量的內閣部長聽。
08:41
But more than half of those,
the originator of those ideas
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但那些想法的始發者,有超過一半
08:47
was someone who might have a hard time
getting the ear of a policy advisor.
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都是原本可能很難讓政策顧問
聽他們說話的人。
08:52
Or who, because of their identity,
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因為他們的身分的關係,
08:53
might not be taken
entirely seriously if they did.
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他們的觀點不會被認真看待。
08:57
Folks who answer the phones,
assistants who manage calendars,
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接起電話的人,管理日曆的助理,
09:01
representatives from agencies
who weren't always trusted.
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來自機構的代表,
不見得都會被信任。
09:07
Imagine if our news media
did the same thing.
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想像一下,如果我們的
新聞媒體也這麼做。
09:09
You can kind of see it now --
a weekly cable news segment
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你們現在其實就可以看到——
每週有線電視新聞片段,
09:13
with a big policy proposal on the table
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把很了不起的政策提案端上桌,
09:15
that doesn't call it
liberal or conservative.
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但不說它是自由派或保守派。
09:19
Or a series of op-eds
for and against a big idea
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或是支持或反對一個偉大
想法的一系列專欄版,
09:25
that don't tell you
where the writers worked.
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並不會告訴你作者在哪裡工作。
09:28
Our public conversations,
even our private disagreements,
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我們的公眾對談,
甚至我們的私人爭論,
09:32
can be transformed by debating ideas,
rather than discussing identity.
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都能透過想法辯論來轉變,
而不是透過討論身分。
09:40
And then, the thing that debate
allows us to do as human beings
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接著,辯論讓我們人類
能夠去做一件事,
09:43
is open ourselves,
really open ourselves up
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就是開誠布公,真正開誠布公,
09:47
to the possibility that we might be wrong.
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承認自己有可能是錯的。
09:50
The humility of uncertainty.
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這是不確定性的謙卑。
09:54
One of the reasons it is so hard
to disagree productively
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要做到有生產力地表示不同意
十分困難的原因之一,
09:58
is because we become
attached to our ideas.
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是因為我們變得
太依附我們的想法。
10:01
We start to believe that we own them
and that by extension, they own us.
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我們開始相信,
我們擁有那些想法,
延伸的意思就是,
那些想法擁有我們。
10:08
But eventually, if you debate long enough,
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但,最終,如果
你辯論得夠久,你會換邊站,
10:11
you will switch sides,
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10:12
you'll argue for and against
the expansion of the welfare state.
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你會支持和反對福利國家的擴張。
10:16
For and against compulsory voting.
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支持和反對強制投票。
10:19
And that exercise
flips a kind of cognitive switch.
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那種練習會觸發一種認知開關。
10:24
The suspicions that you hold
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有些人會支持你所不相信的信仰,
10:26
about people who espouse beliefs
that you don't have, starts to evaporate.
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而你對於這些人的懷疑會開始蒸發。
10:31
Because you can imagine yourself
stepping into those shoes.
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因為你可以想像
把你自己放到他們的立場。
10:35
And as you're stepping into those,
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當你把自己放到那些立場,
10:37
you're embracing
the humility of uncertainty.
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你就是在擁抱不確定性的謙卑。
10:40
The possibility of being wrong.
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承認了自己有可能是錯的。
10:43
And it's that exact humility
that makes us better decision-makers.
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正是那種謙卑,讓我們
能成為更好的決策者。
10:48
Neuroscientist and psychologist Mark Leary
at Duke University and his colleagues
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杜克大學的神經科學家
兼心理學家馬克利里和他的同事
10:53
have found that people
who are able to practice --
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發現:若人們能夠去練習——
這是一項技巧——
10:55
and it is a skill --
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10:57
what those researchers call
intellectual humility
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研究者所謂的「智謙」,
11:00
are more capable of evaluating
a broad range of evidence,
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他們就比較有能力
去評估廣泛的證據,
11:04
are more objective when they do so,
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在這麼做的時候也會比較客觀,
11:06
and become less defensive
when confronted with conflicting evidence.
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且在面對衝突的證據時,
也會比較不那麼有防禦性。
11:11
All attributes that we want in our bosses,
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我們都希望這些特質
會出現在我們的老闆、
11:14
colleagues, discussion partners,
decision-makers,
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同事、討論夥伴、決策者的身上,
11:17
all virtues that we would like
to claim for ourselves.
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我們也希望我們自己
能有這些美德。
11:22
And so, as we're embracing
that humility of uncertainty,
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所以,當我們擁抱
不確定性的謙卑時,
11:26
we should be asking each other,
all of us, a question.
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我們應該要問問彼此,
我們所有人,一個問題。
11:30
Our debate moderators, our news anchors
should be asking it
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我們的辯論仲裁者,我們的
新聞主播都應該要問這個問題,
11:34
of our elective representatives
and candidates for office, too.
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我們選出的公職代表
和候選人也應該要問。
11:38
"What is it that you have changed
your mind about and why?"
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「你改變了你對什麼的
看法?為什麼?」
11:44
"What uncertainty are you humble about?"
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「你對於什麼樣的
不確定性是謙卑的?」
11:50
And this by the way, isn't some fantasy
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順便一提,這並不是公務
11:52
about how public life
and public conversations could work.
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和公眾對談要怎樣才好的空想。
11:56
It has precedent.
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這是有先例的。
11:57
So, in 1969,
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1969 年,
11:59
beloved American children's
television presenter Mister Rogers
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很受喜愛的兒童電視節目主持人
佛瑞德羅傑斯坐在陪審團前,
12:03
sits impaneled
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面對美國國會溝通小組委員會,
12:05
before the United States congressional
subcommittee on communications,
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12:08
chaired by the seemingly very
curmudgeonly John Pastore.
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主席是看似非常不和悅的
約翰帕斯托雷。
12:13
And Mister Rogers is there
to make a kind of classic debate case,
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羅傑斯去那裡是要進行
一件經典的辯論案,
12:16
a really bold proposal:
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一個非常大膽的提議:
12:18
an increase in federal funding
for public broadcasting.
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增加聯邦對於
公共廣播提撥的資金。
12:23
And at the outset,
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一開始,委員會的執行紀律者
帕斯托雷不吃這一套。
12:25
committee disciplinarian
Senator Pastore is not having it.
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12:27
This is about to end
really poorly for Mister Rogers.
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對羅傑斯來說,這個案件
就要以很糟糕的方式結案。
12:31
But patiently, very reasonably,
Mister Rogers makes the case
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但,羅傑斯很有耐心,
非常理性地提出論據,
12:37
why good quality children's broadcasting,
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說明為什麼高品質的兒童廣播,
12:40
the kinds of television programs
that talk about the drama that arises
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即內容是關於在平凡家庭中
12:44
in the most ordinary of families,
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發生之悲劇事件的電視節目,
12:47
matters to all of us.
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對我們所有人都很重要。
12:49
Even while it costs us.
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雖然我們得付出成本。
12:51
He invites us into a shared reality.
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他邀請我們進入一個共同現實。
12:55
And on the other side of that table,
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在那張桌子的另一端,
12:57
Senator Pastore listens,
engages and opens his mind.
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帕斯托雷傾聽著,
盡力理解,而打開了心胸。
13:05
Out loud, in public, on the record.
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公開在會留下記錄的情況下,
13:10
And Senator Pastore
says to Mister Rogers,
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帕斯托雷大聲對羅傑斯說出來:
13:13
"You know, I'm supposed to be
a pretty tough guy,
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「你知道嗎,我應該
要是個很強硬的人,
13:15
and this is the first time
I've had goosebumps in two days."
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這是我兩天以來
頭一回起雞皮疙瘩。」
13:19
And then, later, "It looks like you
just earned the 20 million dollars."
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接著,後來他又說:「看來
你剛剛賺到了兩千萬美金。」
13:26
We need many more Mister Rogers.
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我們需要更多更多的羅傑斯。
13:29
People with the technical skills
of debate and persuasion.
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有辯論和說服技巧的人。
13:33
But on the other side of that table,
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但在那張桌子的另一端,
13:35
we need many, many,
many more Senator Pastores.
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我們需要很多很多
很多很多帕斯托雷。
13:41
And the magic of debate
is that it lets you, it empowers you
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而辯論的魔力就在於,它讓你能夠
13:45
to be both Mister Rogers
and Senator Pastore simultaneously.
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同時成為羅傑斯以及帕斯托雷。
13:51
When I work with those same teams
that we talked about before,
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當我和我們先前談的
那些團隊合作時,
13:54
I ask them at the outset to pre-commit
to the possibility of being wrong.
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我請他們在一開始就預先
承認他們有可能是錯的。
14:00
To explain to me and to each other
what it would take to change their minds.
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向我以及向彼此解釋,
什麼才能讓他們改變心意。
14:05
And that's all about the attitude,
not the exercise.
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重點在於態度,而非實踐。
14:09
Once you start thinking about
what it would take to change your mind,
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一旦你開始思考什麼
才會讓你改變心意,
14:12
you start to wonder why
you were quite so sure in the first place.
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你就會開始納悶為什麼
你一開始會如此武斷。
14:17
There is so much
that the practice of debate
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進行辯論能夠教導我們好多知識,
14:21
has to offer us
for how to disagree productively.
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讓我們學到如何用
有生產力的方式來表示不同意。
14:24
And we should bring it to our workplaces,
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我們應該把它帶到
我們的工作場所、
14:27
our conferences,
our city council meetings.
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我們的討論會、
我們的市議會會議中。
14:30
And the principles of debate can transform
the way that we talk to one another,
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辯論的原則能夠轉變
我們和彼此說話的方式,
14:35
to empower us to stop talking
and to start listening.
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讓我們能夠停止講話,開始傾聽。
14:40
To stop dismissing
and to start persuading.
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不再直接拒絕
其他想法,開始說服。
14:44
To stop shutting down
and to start opening our minds.
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不再關上門,
開始打開我們的心胸。
14:48
Thank you so much.
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非常感謝。
14:50
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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