How whistle-blowers shape history | Kelly Richmond Pope

105,290 views ・ 2018-11-02

TED


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譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Melody Tang
00:13
How many of us have ever seen something,
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在座有多少人,曾經看到某件事,
00:16
thought that we should report it, but decided not to?
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認為應該要舉報, 卻決定不要這麼做?
00:21
And not that I need to see a show of hands,
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我並不需要看到大家舉手,
00:23
but I'm sure this has happened to someone in this room before.
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只是我相信在座有很多人 都有過這樣的經驗。
00:26
In fact, when this question was asked to a group of employees,
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事實上,當一群員工 被問到這個問題時,
00:29
46 percent of them responded by saying that they had seen something
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46% 的人回答他們 曾經看到某件事,
00:32
and decided not to report it.
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卻決定不要舉報。
00:34
So if you raised your hand, or quietly raised your hand,
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所以如果你剛剛有舉手, 或是在心中默默舉手,
00:37
don't feel bad, you're not alone.
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不要覺得難過, 並非只有你一個人如此。
00:40
This message of if you see something to say something
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這個「如果你看見了什麼, 說出來」的訊息,
00:43
is really all around us.
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其實在我們身邊隨處可見。
00:45
Even when driving down the highway, you see billboards like this,
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即使在高速公路上開車, 也會看到這樣的廣告牌,
00:49
encouraging us to report crime without revealing ourselves.
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鼓勵我們在不揭露 自己身分的情況下舉報犯罪,
00:52
But I still feel like a lot of us are really uncomfortable
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但我仍然覺得,大部分人還是無法
00:55
coming forward in the name of the truth.
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很自在地以真相之名站出來。
00:57
I'm an accounting professor, and I do fraud research.
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我是會計學教授,我研究詐欺。
01:00
And in my class, I encourage my students to come forward with information
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在我的課堂上,我會鼓勵我的學生
如果有看到什麼資訊, 要站出來揭發。
01:04
if they see it.
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01:05
Or in other words, encouraging my students to become whistle-blowers.
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或是,換句話說, 鼓勵我的學生當舉報者。
01:09
But if I'm being completely honest with myself,
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但如果要我對自己完全誠實,
01:12
I am really conflicted with this message that I'm sending to my students.
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我其實對於我傳達給學生的 這個訊息感到很矛盾。
01:15
And here's why.
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原因如下。
01:18
Whistle-blowers are under attack.
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舉報者受到攻擊。
01:21
Headline after headline shows us this.
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一則又一則的頭條, 讓我們很清楚這一點。
01:25
Many people choose not to become whistle-blowers
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許多人選擇不要當舉報者,
01:28
due to the fear of retaliation.
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因為害怕被報復。
01:30
From demotions to death threats,
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從降職、死亡威脅,
01:34
to job loss --
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到失去工作——
01:36
perpetual job loss.
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永遠失去工作。
01:38
Choosing to become a whistle-blower is an uphill battle.
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選擇當舉報者等於 在打一場艱難的仗。
01:41
Their loyalty becomes into question.
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他們的忠誠度成了問題。
01:44
Their motives, their trustworthiness.
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他們的動機、他們的可信度。
01:47
So how can I, as a professor who really cares about her students
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所以,我身為一個真的 很關心自己學生的教授,
01:51
encourage them to become whistle-blowers,
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我明明知道舉報者會被如何看待,
01:53
when I know how the world truly feels about them?
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怎麼還能鼓勵學生去當舉報者?
01:56
So, one day I was getting ready for my annual whistle-blower lecture
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所以,有一天,我正在準備 每年要對我學生做的舉報者演講。
01:59
with my students.
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我在為「富比士」 寫一篇文章,標題是
02:01
And I was working on an article for "Forbes,"
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02:03
entitled "Wells Fargo and Millennial Whistle-blowing.
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「富國銀行集團及千禧世代舉報? 我們要告訴他們什麼?」
02:05
What Do We Tell Them?"
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我在寫這篇文章時, 讀到了一個案例,
02:07
And as I was working on this piece and reading about the case,
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02:10
I became outraged.
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讓我震怒。
02:11
And what made me angry was when I came to the fact and realized
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讓我生氣的是我得知
02:15
that the employees that tried to whistle-blow
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試圖舉報的員工
02:18
were actually fired.
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真的被開除了。
02:20
And it really made me think
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這件事真的讓我去思考 我一直在給我的學生的訊息。
02:21
about the message that I was sharing with my students.
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02:24
And it made me think: What if my students had been Wells Fargo employees?
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它讓我去思考:如果我的學生是
富國銀行集團的員工呢?
02:29
On the one hand, if they whistle-blew, they would have gotten fired.
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一方面,如果他們舉報,
他們就會被開除。
02:33
But on the other hand,
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但另一方面,
02:34
if they didn't report the frauds that they knew,
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如果他們不舉報他們知道的詐欺,
02:37
the way current regulation is written,
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依據目前的規定,
02:39
employees are held responsible
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員工知情不報
02:42
if they knew something and didn't report it.
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是需要負責的。
02:44
So criminal prosecution is a real option.
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所以受到刑事訴訟真的 是其中一個可能性。
02:47
What's a person supposed to do with those type of odds?
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在這種勝算很低的 情況下,該怎麼做?
02:50
I of all people know the valuable contributions
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所有人當中,我最清楚
舉報者做出的貢獻是多麼有價值。
02:54
that whistle-blowers make.
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02:56
In fact, most frauds are discovered by them.
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事實上,大部分的詐欺 都是由舉報者發現的。
02:59
Forty two percent of frauds are discovered by a whistle-blower
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42% 的詐欺是舉報者發現的,
03:02
in comparison to other methods,
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勝過其他的揭發方式,
03:04
like measurement review and external audit.
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如測量評估和外部稽核。
03:07
And when you think about some of the more classic
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當你想想一些比較經典 或歷史上的詐欺案例,
03:09
or historical fraud cases,
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03:11
it always is around a whistle-blower.
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都是和舉報者脫不了關係。
03:14
Think Watergate -- discovered by a whistle-blower.
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想想水門案——由舉報者發現。
03:16
Think Enron -- discovered by a whistle-blower.
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想想安隆案——由舉報者發現。
03:19
And who can forget about Bernard Madoff, discovered by a whistle-blower?
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還有,誰能忘得了伯納·馬多夫案?
也是由舉報者發現。
03:24
It takes a tremendous amount of courage to come forward in the name of the truth.
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一個人需要有非常大的勇氣,
才能以真相之名挺身而出。
03:28
But when we think about the term whistle-blower,
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但當我們想到舉報者這個詞時,
03:31
we often think of some very descriptive words:
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我們通常會聯想到一些 非常描述性的字眼:
03:35
rat,
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鼠輩、
03:37
snake,
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蛇(陰險的人)、
03:39
traitor,
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叛徒、
03:40
tattletale, weasel.
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搬弄是非的人、黃鼠狼。
03:43
And those are the nice words, the ones I can say from the stage.
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那些還算是好的字眼, 是我能在台上說出來的。
03:46
And so when I'm not in class,
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所以,當我不在課堂上時, 我會全國到處跑,
03:48
I go around the country and I interview white-collar felons,
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訪問詐欺案的白領重罪犯、 舉報者,以及受害者。
03:51
whistle-blowers and victims of fraud.
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03:53
Because really I'm trying to understand what makes them tick
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因為我想要了解他們的動機,
03:56
and to bring those experiences back into the classroom.
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並把那些經驗帶回到教室裡。
03:59
But it's my interviews with whistle-blowers that really stick with me.
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但所有的訪談中, 和舉報者的訪談最讓我難忘。
04:03
And they stick with me,
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我忘不了的原因是 它們讓我質疑我自己的勇氣。
04:04
because they make me question my own courage.
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04:07
When given the opportunity, would I actually speak up?
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若給我機會,
我真的會說出來嗎?
04:11
And so, this is a couple stories that I want to share with you.
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所以,我想要和各位 分享這幾個故事。
04:14
This is Mary.
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這位是瑪莉。
04:15
Mary Willingham is the whistle-blower from the University of North Carolina
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瑪莉·威林漢是 教堂山北卡羅萊納大學的
04:18
at Chapel Hill, academic fraud case.
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學術詐欺案的舉報者。
04:22
And Mary was a learning specialist at the university,
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當時瑪莉是該大學中的學習專員,
04:25
and she worked with students, primarily student athletes.
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她工作時要面對學生, 主要是學生運動員。
04:28
And what she noticed, when she was working with students,
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當她在帶這些學生時,她注意到
04:31
is they were turning in term papers
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學生們交給她的學期報告
04:34
that seemed well beyond their reading levels.
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程度似乎遠超過他們的閱讀水準。
04:37
She started to ask a couple of questions
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她開始問一些問題,
04:39
and she found out that there was a database
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她發現有一個資料庫存在,
04:41
where the student athletes could retrieve papers and turn them in.
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學生運動員可以從 這個資料庫取得報告來繳交。
04:44
And then she found out that some of her colleagues
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接著她發現,她的一些同事
04:47
were funneling students into fake classes, just to keep them eligible to play.
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幫學生安排假課程,
好讓他們有資格繼續參賽。
04:53
Now, when Mary found this out, she was outraged.
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當瑪莉發現這些時,她非常生氣。
04:56
And so what she tried to do was go to her direct supervisor.
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她試著去找她的直屬主管。
04:59
But they didn't do anything.
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但他們沒有採取行動。
05:01
And then Mary tried to go to some internal university administrators.
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接著,瑪莉試著去找 大學內部的一些管理者。
05:04
And they didn't do anything.
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他們沒有採取行動。
05:06
So, what happens when nobody listens?
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所以,當沒有人肯聽你的話時, 怎麼辦?
05:08
You blog.
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你寫網誌。
05:10
So Mary decided to develop a blog.
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所以瑪莉決定開一個部落格。
05:12
Her blog went viral within 24 hours,
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在二十四小時之內, 她的部落格被瘋傳,
05:14
and she was contacted by a reporter.
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一名記者去聯絡她。
05:17
Now, when she was contacted by this reporter,
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當她被這位記者聯絡上時,
05:19
her identity was known.
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她的身分就廣為人知的了。
05:21
She was exposed.
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她已經曝光了。
05:22
And when she was exposed, she received a demotion,
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當她曝光之後,她就被降級,
05:26
death threats, over collegiate sports.
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還收到來自 大學運動聯盟的死亡威脅。
05:30
Mary didn't do anything wrong. She didn't participate in the fraud.
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瑪莉並沒有做錯事。 她並沒有參與詐欺。
05:34
She really thought that she was giving voice
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她真的認為她是在 為無法發聲的學生發聲。
05:36
to students that were voiceless.
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05:38
But her loyalty was questioned.
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但她的忠誠受到質疑。
05:41
Her trustworthiness and her motives.
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她的可信度和她的動機。
05:45
Now, whistle-blowing doesn't always have to end
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舉報不見得最後一定會都得到
05:48
in demotions or death threats.
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降職或死亡威脅。
05:50
Actually, in 2002, this was the cover of "Time" magazine,
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事實上,在 2002 年, 這是《時代》雜誌的封面,
05:54
where we were actually honoring three brave whistle-blowers
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我們表揚了三位勇敢的舉報者,
05:57
for their decision to come forward in the name of the truth.
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因為他們決定以真相之名挺身而出。
06:00
And when you look at the research,
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根據研究結果,
06:02
22 percent of whistle-blowers actually report retaliation.
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22% 的舉報者說 他們確實遭到報復。
06:06
So there is a huge population of people that report and are not retaliated against
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所以有很多人
舉報但沒有遭到報復,
06:11
and that gives me hope.
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那讓我燃起希望。
06:14
So this is Kathe.
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這位是凱西。
06:15
Kathe Swanson is a retired city clerk from the city of Dixon.
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凱西·史萬森是迪克森市的 退休辦事員。
06:20
And one day, Kathe was doing her job, just like she always did,
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有一天,凱西在一如往常地工作時,
06:24
and she stumbled upon a pretty interesting case.
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她偶然發現一個很有趣的案件。
06:27
See, Kathe was at the end of the month,
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那時是月底,
06:29
and she was doing her treasures report for the city,
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凱西在為市政府做財務報告,
06:32
and typically, her boss, Rita Crundwell, gave her a list of accounts and said,
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通常,她的老闆瑞塔·克朗威爾 會給她一份帳戶清單,並說:
06:36
"Kathe, call the bank and get these specific accounts."
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「凱西,打電話給銀行, 取得這些帳戶的資料。」
06:39
And Kathe did her job.
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凱西就照做。
06:41
But this particular day,
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但就在這一天,
06:42
Rita was out of town, and Kathe was busy.
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瑞塔出城了,而凱西很忙。
06:45
She picks up the phone, she calls the bank and says, "Fax me all of the accounts."
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她拿起電話,打給銀行,說: 「請把所有的帳戶的資料傳真給我。」
06:50
And when she gets the fax, she sees that there is an account
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當她拿到傳真之後, 她注意到有一個帳戶
06:53
that has some withdrawals and deposits in it
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有她不知情的提款和存款記錄。
06:55
that she did not know about.
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06:57
It was an account controlled only by Rita.
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這個帳戶只由瑞塔親自管理。
07:00
So Kathe looked at the information, she reported it to her direct supervisor,
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所以,凱西看了那些資訊,
呈報她的直屬主管, 也就是當時的市長柏克。
07:04
which was then-mayor Burke,
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07:06
and this led into a huge investigation, a six-month investigation.
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此舉造成了為期 六個月的大規模調查。
07:11
Come to find out, Kathe's boss, Rita Crundwell, was embezzling money.
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後來發現,凱西的老闆 瑞塔·克朗威爾一直在盜用公款。
07:16
Rita was embezzling 53 million dollars over a 20-year period,
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瑞塔在二十年的期間,
盜用了五千三百萬美金,
07:21
and Kathe just happened to stumble upon it.
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凱西只是碰巧發現了。
07:25
Kathe is a hero.
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凱西是位英雄。
07:28
And actually, I had the opportunity
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其實,我的紀錄片 《女王所有的人馬》
07:29
of interviewing Kathe for my documentary, "All the Queen's Horses."
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讓我有機會訪問凱西。
07:33
And Kathe wasn't seeking fame.
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凱西並不想要名氣。
07:35
In fact, she really didn't want to talk to me for a really long time,
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事實上,有很長一段時間 她都不願意和我談,
07:39
but through strategic stalking, she ended up doing the interview.
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但透過策略性的跟蹤, 她最後還是接受了訪談。
07:42
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
07:43
But she was seeking fairness, not fame.
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但她追求的是公平,不是成名。
07:45
And if it wasn't for Kathe,
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若不是凱西,
07:47
who's to say this fraud would have ever been discovered?
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誰敢說這件詐欺會被揭發出來?
07:51
So, remember that "Forbes" article I was talking about,
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還記得我剛說過的富比士文章嗎?
07:53
that I was working on before my lecture?
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我演講前在寫的文章?
07:55
Well, I posted it and something really fantastic happened.
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我把它刊出來了, 接著發生了很棒的事。
07:59
I started receiving emails from whistle-blowers all over the world.
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我開始收到全世界 舉報者寄來的電子郵件。
08:04
And as I was receiving these emails and responding back to them,
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我在收到這些電子郵件之後, 會回信給他們,
08:07
there was a common theme in the message that I received,
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在我收到的訊息當中, 有一個共通的主題,就是:
08:10
and this is what it was:
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08:11
they all said this, "I blew the whistle, people really hate me now.
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他們都會這樣說:「我舉報了, 現在大家都很討厭我。
08:15
I got fired, but guess what?
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我被開除了,但你知道嗎?
08:18
I would do it all over again if I could."
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如果重來一次,我還是會這麼做。」
08:21
And so as I kept reading this message, all these messages,
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當我繼續閱讀著這些訊息,
08:24
I wanted to think, what could I share with my students?
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我在思考, 我能和我的學生分享什麼?
08:27
And so, I pulled it all together and this is what I learned.
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所以,我把一切整理起來, 以下是我所學到的。
08:31
It's important for us to cultivate hope.
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我們要培養希望,這是很重要的。
08:34
Whistle-blowers are hopeful.
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舉報者抱有希望。
08:36
Despite popular belief,
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不論大眾怎麼想,他們並非全都是
08:37
they're not all disgruntled employees that have a beef with the company.
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對公司有所抱怨的不滿員工。
08:42
Their hopefulness really is what drives them to come forward.
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他們之所以會站出來, 背後的動因就是他們抱有希望。
08:46
We also have to cultivate commitment.
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我們也得要培養投入。
08:48
Whistle-blowers are committed.
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舉報者是投入的人。
08:50
And it's that passion to their organization
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正是對公司的熱忱,
08:53
that makes them want to come forward.
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讓他們想要站出來。
08:55
Whistle-blowers are humble.
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舉報者是謙遜的。
08:57
Again, they're not seeking fame, but they are seeking fairness.
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同樣的,他們追求的不是出名, 他們在追求的是公平。
09:01
And we need to continue to cultivate bravery.
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另外,我們需要持續培養勇氣。
09:04
Whistle-blowers are brave.
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舉報者很勇敢。
09:05
Often, they underestimated
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他們通常低估
09:09
the impact whistle-blowing had on their family,
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舉報對於他們的家庭造成的影響,
09:12
but what they continue to comment on is how hard it is to withhold the truth.
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但他們持續敘述的是 隱瞞真相是多麼困難。
09:17
With that, I want to leave you with one additional name:
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因此,我最後想留給各位一個名字:
09:20
Peter Buxtun.
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彼得·巴克斯頓。
09:23
Peter Buxtun was a 27-year-old employee for the US Public Health Service.
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二十七歲的彼得·巴克斯頓是
美國公共衛生局的員工。
09:29
And he was hired to interview people
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他被僱來訪談
09:33
that had sexually transmitted diseases.
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因為性行為而染上疾病的人。
09:35
And through the course of his work,
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在他工作的過程中,
09:37
he noticed a clinical study that was going on within the organization.
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他注意到組織中正在 進行一項臨床研究。
09:41
And it was a study that was looking at the progression of untreated syphilis.
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這項研究是在探究 未被治療之梅毒的發展。
09:45
And so, there were 600 African American males
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這項研究中有六百位 非裔美國男性。
09:48
that were in this study.
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09:49
They were enticed into the study
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他們被誘使參加研究,誘因是
09:51
through being given free medical exams, burial insurance.
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給予他們免費的體檢和喪葬保險。
09:55
And so, what happened through the course of this study,
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在這項研究進行的過程中 發生了一件事,
09:59
is penicillin was discovered to help treat syphilis.
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盤尼西林已被發現 可以協助治療梅毒。
10:04
And what Peter noticed was,
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而彼得所注意到的是,
10:06
the participants in this study were not given the penicillin
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這項研究的受試者 並沒有得到盤尼西林
10:10
to treat their syphilis.
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來治療他們的梅毒。
10:11
And the participants didn't know.
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而受試者並不知情。
10:13
So similar to Mary, Peter tried to report and talk to his internal supervisors,
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和瑪莉很類似,
彼得試圖舉報, 並和內部的主管談這件事,
10:18
but no one listened.
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但沒有人肯聽。
10:20
And so Peter thought this was completely unfair
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彼得認為這非常不公平,
10:22
and he tried to report again,
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他再次試圖舉報,
10:24
and finally talked to a reporter -- very similar to Mary.
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終於,他和一位記者談過—— 和瑪莉的狀況非常像。
10:28
And in 1972, this was the front page of the "New York Times":
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1972 年,這是 《紐約時報》的頭版:
10:32
"Syphilis Victims in US Study Went Untreated for 40 Years."
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「美國研究的梅毒受害者, 四十年沒有被治療。」
10:37
This is known to us today as the Tuskegee syphilis experiment.
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這就是我們現今所知道的
「塔斯基吉梅毒實驗」。
10:42
And Peter was the whistle-blower.
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舉報者正是彼得。
10:44
What happened to the 600 men, you may wonder, the 600 original men?
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你可能在納悶, 這六百個人後來怎麼了?
10:48
Twenty eight men died from syphilis.
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其中二十八人死於梅毒。
10:51
One hundred died from syphilis complications,
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一百人因為梅毒併發症而死,
10:54
forty wives were infected
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四十位妻子受到感染,
10:56
and 10 children were born with congenital syphilis.
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十名孩子出生時就有先天性梅毒。
10:59
Who's to say what these numbers would be
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如果彼得沒有做出這勇敢的舉動,
11:01
if it wasn't for the brave, courageous act of Peter?
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天知道這些數字會是多少?
11:05
We're all connected to Peter, actually.
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其實,我們都和彼得有所連結。
11:08
If you know anybody that's in a clinical trial,
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如果你認識任何 參與臨床試驗的人,
11:10
the reason why we have informed consent today
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現今我們會有「知情同意」的原因,
11:14
is because of Peter's courageous act.
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就是因為彼得勇敢的舉動。
11:17
So let me ask you a question.
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讓我問各位一個問題。 把原本的問題改個問法。
11:18
That original question, a variation of the original question.
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11:21
How many of us have ever used the term
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有多少人曾經用下列這些詞:
11:24
snitch, rat
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抓耙子、鼠輩、
11:27
tattletale,
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搬弄是非的人、
11:29
snake,
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蛇(陰險的人)、
11:31
weasel,
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黃鼠狼、
11:32
leak?
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洩密者?
11:34
Anybody?
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有人用過嗎?
11:39
Before you get the urge to do that again,
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下次當你有衝動想要 再說出這些詞之前,
11:42
I want you to think a little bit.
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我希望你能稍微想一下。
11:44
It might be the Mary, the Peter, the Kathes of the world.
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你說的人可能就是世界上的 瑪莉、彼得、凱西。
11:49
You might be the person that could shape history,
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你可能就是能夠塑造歷史的人,
11:52
or they could be the person that shapes yours.
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或者,他們可能就是 塑造你的歷史的人。
11:55
Thank you.
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謝謝。
11:56
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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