How nationalism and globalism can coexist | Wanis Kabbaj

Translator: Brian Greene Reviewer: Camille Martínez

翻译人员: Rui Tang 校对人员: Tianji (Homer) Li

So two weeks ago, I searched the word "nationalist" on Twitter.

两周前，我在推特上 搜索“民族主义者” 。

The results were quite colorful,

结果多种多样，

with expressions like, "Emboldened Racist Moron," --

有的说是“大胆的种族主义白痴”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

"White Supremacist Idiot,"

“白种至上主义笨蛋”

"Fascist Sock Puppets," --

“法西斯的袜子木偶”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

"Orwellian, Hitlerian, Terrifying."

“奥威尔式的、希特勒式的，令人恐怖的。”

I then searched the word "globalist"

然后我搜索了“全球主义者”这个词，

and got things like, "Socialist Sell-Outs,"

然后得到的结果是 “来自社会主义的叛徒，”

"Disgusting Corporate Propaganda,"

“令人恶心的企业宣传，”

"Elitist Financial Overlords,"

“精英阶层的金融霸主，”

"Ruthless Cosmopolitan Rats."

”无情的世界主义老鼠。“

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Even by social media standards, the words are cruel and disgusting.

即使用社交媒体的标准来看， 这些词是让人难受和厌恶的。

But they reflect the intensity of one of the most fundamental questions

但是它们反应了一个 很严重的基本问题

of our times:

在我们当下这个时代：

Nationalism or globalism -- what is the best path forward?

民族主义还是全球主义——哪一个 才是最好的前进方向呢？

This question impacts everything we care about:

这个问题影响了我们 所关心的每一件事情：

our cultural identity,

我们的文化身份，

our prosperity,

繁荣兴旺，

our political systems --

政治体制，

everything -- the health of our planet -- everything.

所有事情——我们星球的兴旺。

So on the one hand, we have nationalism.

一方面，民族主义。

Collins defines it as a "devotion to one's nation,"

《柯林斯词典》把这一名词 解释为“对一个民族的忠诚”，

but also, a "doctrine that puts national interests

但同时也是“一种把 民族利益放在

above international considerations."

全球环境之上的信条。”

For nationalists, our modern societies are built on national grounds:

对于民族主义者来说，我们 现代社会是建立在民族的基础上：

we share a land, a history, a culture, and we defend each other.

我们分享一片土地， 一种历史，文化，并且互相保护。

In a big and chaotic world,

在一个巨大的混乱的世界里，

they see nationalism as the only sensible way to maintain social stability.

他们将民族主义视作唯一一种 合理的维护社会稳定的方法。

But alarmed globalists warn us:

但是警惕的全球主义者提醒我们：

self-centered nationalism can easily turn ugly.

以自我为中心的民族主义 会很容易变得丑陋。

We've seen it with 20th-century fascisms:

我们已经在20世纪的 法西斯主义里见到过：

bloody wars, millions of deaths, immeasurable destruction.

血腥的战争，数百万人的死亡， 无可计量的破坏。

On the other hand, we have globalism.

另一方面，全球主义。

The Oxford Living Dictionary defines it as:

《牛津生活字典》对它定义为：

"the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy

“对经济和外交政策的经营或计划

on a global basis."

建立在全球的基础上。”

For nationalists, globalism is rapidly deconstructing

对于民族主义者来说， 全球主义是一种对于

我们祖先用很长时间 建立起的体制的快速破坏。

what our ancestors took decades to build.

It's like spitting on our soldiers' tombs;

就好像对着我们 士兵的坟墓吐痰；

it's eroding our national solidarities

它正在侵蚀我们的 国家团结；

and opening the doors to foreign invasions.

并向来自外部的入侵敞开大门。

But globalists make the case that reinforcing our global governance

但是全球主义主张 增强全球化管理，

is the only way to tackle big supernational problems,

这是处理跨国问题的唯一方法，

like nuclear proliferation,

例如核扩散，

the global refugee crisis,

全球难民危机，

climate change or terrorism

气候变化或恐怖组织，

or even the consequences of superhuman AI.

甚至超级人工智能带来的后果。

So we are at the crossroads,

所以，我们现在站在一个十字路口，

and we are asked to choose:

我们被要求做出选择：

nationalism or globalism?

民族主义或是全球主义？

Having lived in four continents,

我已经在四个大洲上居住过了，

I've always been interested in this question.

常常对这个问题产生兴趣。

But it took a whole new level when I saw this happening:

但我看到这个后，使我对这个问题的 看法到了另一个层面上：

the biggest surge in nationalist votes in Western democracies

如今，在西方民主国家中支持民族主义 投票的陡增，

since World War II.

自从第二次世界大战以来。

All of a sudden, this isn't theory anymore.

一瞬间，这并不只是一个理论了。

I mean, these political movements have built their success with ideas

这些政治运动已经取得成功， 背后的想法

that could mean, down the road, losing my French citizenship

可能意味着，在不久的将来， 我可能会失去我法国公民的身份

because I'm North African

因为我是一个北非人，

or not being able to come back home to the US

或者再也无法返回美国

because I come from a Muslim-majority country.

因为我来自穆斯林为主的国家。

You know, when you live in a democracy,

当你生活在民主国家中，

you live with this idea that your government will always protect you,

你相信，你的政府会永远保护你

as long as you abide by the laws.

只要你遵守法律。

With the rise of national populism,

随着当下兴起的民族民粹主义，

despite being the best citizen I can,

尽管我是一个良好的市民，

I now have to live with the idea that my government can hurt me

我现在也要接受我的 政府可能会伤害我

for reasons I cannot control.

只是因为一些我无法控制的原因。

It's very unsettling.

这极其令人不安。

But it forced me to rethink

但这让我再次思考，

and rethink this question and try to think deeper.

再次并且更深入地 思考这个问题。

And the more I thought about it,

随着我思考的越多，

the more I started questioning the question.

我越来越开始质疑 这个问题本身。

Why would we have to choose between nationalism and globalism,

为什么我们一定要在民族主义 和全球主义中选择一个，

between loving our country and caring for the world?

在热爱国家和关心世界 中选择一个呢？

There's no reason for that.

这是毫无道理的。

We don't have to choose between family and country

我们没有必要在家庭 和国家地区中选择

or region or religion and country.

或是在宗教和国家中选择。

We already have multiple identities, and we live with them very well.

我们已经有了多重的身份， 伴随着这些，我们生活得也很好。

Why would we have to choose between country and world?

为什么我们要在国家和 世界中做出抉择呢？

What if, instead of accepting this absurd choice,

假如，与其去接受 这些荒谬的选择，

we took it on ourselves to fight this dangerous, binary thinking?

我们对抗这个危险的 二元选择会怎么样？

So for all the globalists in the audience,

所以面对在坐的 全球主义观众们，

I want to ask:

我想问：

When I say the word "nationalist," what image comes to your mind?

当我说“民族主义”这个词时 你们想到了什么？

Something like this?

是不是这样的？

Believe me, I think of that, too.

相信我，我也是这样想的。

But I'd like you to remember that for most people,

但我像让你们记住， 对大多数人来说

nationalism feels more like this.

民族主义的感觉更像是这样的。

Or maybe like that.

或者像这样的。

You know, it's that thing inside you

这就是你们内心深处的感受，

when you accidentally watch an obscure Olympic sport on TV --

当你们无意间在电视上看到了 一个难懂的奥林匹克运动，

(Laughter)

（笑声）

wait --

等一下，

and the mere sight of an unknown athlete wearing your national colors

仅仅看到一个不知名的运动员 穿着你们国家颜色的衣服

gets you all excited.

都会使你们激动。

Your heartbeat goes up,

你的心跳加快，

your stress level goes up,

血压升高，

and you're standing in front of the TV

并且你会驻足于电视前

and screaming with passion for that athlete to win.

为这个运动员的胜利激情尖叫，

That's nationalism.

这就是民族主义。

It's people happy to be together,

人们乐于聚集在一起

happy to belong to a large national community.

为属于同一个 民族共同体感到开心。

Why would it be wrong?

哪里又有错的呢？

You know, globalists, you may think of nationalism

全球主义者或许 认为民族主义

as an old, 19th-century idea that is destined to fade.

是一个古老的19世纪的 思想，注定会消失。

But I'm sorry to tell you that the facts are not on your side.

但我很不幸的告诉你们， 真相并不如你们所想。

When the World Values Survey asked more than 89,000 people

当世界价值观调查问了 超过89000人

across 60 countries

来自60个国家，

how proud they felt about their country,

他们对自己国家的自豪感如何？

88.5 percent said "very proud" or "quite proud" --

88.5%的都表示“非常自豪”或 “比较自豪”，

88.5 percent.

88.5%。

Nationalism is not going away anytime soon.

民族主义不会很快消失的。

It's a powerful feeling that, according to another study,

另一项研究表明， 它是一种强大的感觉，

is a strong predictor of individual happiness.

是个体幸福的有效的预测仪。

It's crazy, but your happiness is more correlated with national satisfaction

听起来难以置信，但你们的快乐或许 真的与民族满足感有关，

than with things you would expect, like household income

胜过你们所认为的 其他事物，如家庭收入

or your job satisfaction

工作成就感

or your health satisfaction.

健康满意度。

So if nationalism makes people happy,

所以，如果民族主义使人开心，

why would anybody take it away from them?

为什么一些人要消灭它呢？

Fellow globalists, if you are like me,

各位全球主义者们， 如果你们像我一样，

you may be attached to globalization for humanistic reasons.

你们可能是因为全人类的 一些原因倾向于全球化。

And you may take great joy in some of its accomplishments since 1945.

与此同时，你们可能因从1945年以来的 一系列成就感受到喜悦。

After all, major regions of the world have been exceptionally peaceful;

毕竟，世界上主要地区 都格外的和平；

extreme poverty rates around the globe are trending down;

全世界的极端贫困率正在下降；

and more than two billion people, most notably in Asia,

超过20亿人口， 主要是在亚洲，

show spectacular improvements in their standards of living.

生活水平有了极大的提高。

But studies also show that globalization has a dark side.

但一些研究也显示了 全球化不好的一面。

And left on the side of the road

在另一面的是

are hundreds of millions of people in Western middle classes

很多西方中产阶级人群

with anemic income growth for more than two decades,

在过去的20年里收入增长缓慢，

possibly three decades, according to some studies.

甚至说是过去30年， 根据一些研究。

We cannot ignore this elephant in our room.

我们无法忽视 这个巨大的问题。

If anything, our collective energy would be better used

如果有可能，我们应该 更好地利用集体的力量

finding ways to fix this aspect of globalization,

找到解决全球化中 这个问题的方法，

instead of fighting this polarizing battle against nationalism.

而不是用于这场对抗民族主义的 两极化斗争。

So now, the nationalists in the audience,

所以，现在，观众里的 民族主义者们，

I have some crusty, nonbinary nuggets for you.

我有一些强硬的， 非二元的好点子给你们。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

When I say the word "globalist," what comes to your mind?

当我说“全球主义”时， 你们脑子里首先浮现的是什么？

Out-of-touch, one-percent plutocrats?

脱离现实的， 百分之一的富豪？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Or maybe the heartless, greedy Wall Street type, right?

又或者是无情的，贪婪的 华尔街之徒，对么？

Or maybe people like me, with multiple origins,

又或者是一些像我这样的人， 有着多种根源

living in a big, cosmopolitan metropolis.

住在国际化大都市里。

Well, you remember that World Values Survey that I mentioned earlier?

好吧，你们还记得先前我 提到的国际价值观调查么？

It showed another fascinating finding:

它还有另外一个有趣的发现：

71 percent of the world population agreed with the statement,

世界上71%的人口同意

"I am a citizen of the world."

“我是这个世界的公民”这一观点。

Do you know what it means?

你们知道这意味这什么吗？

Most of us are simultaneously proud of our country

我们中的大多数， 在为自己国家骄傲的同时

and citizens of the world.

也为作为世界的公民而骄傲。

And it gets even better.

还有更好的一点。

The citizens of the world in the survey show a higher level of national pride

在调查中，认为自己是世界公民的 人群中，有着更高的国家荣耀感，

than the ones that rejected that label.

相比与那些不认同的人们。

So once and for all, being a globalist doesn't mean betraying your country.

所以，一旦成为一名全球主义者 并不等同于背叛你的国家。

It just means that you have enough social empathy,

这只是表明，你有 足够的社会同情心，

and you project some of it outside your national borders.

你把其中的一部分 投射到了国家以外的地区。

Now, I know that when I dig into my own nationalist feelings,

现如今，我知道，当我挖掘 我民族主义情绪的时候，

one of my anxieties versus the globalized world

在面对全球化的世界时， 我对一点感到不安

is national identity:

就是民族身份。

How are we going to preserve what makes us special,

我们应该如何去延续 那些让我们特别

what makes us different,

那些让我们不同

what brings us together?

那些让我们聚集在一起的东西呢？

And as I started thinking about it, I realized something really strange,

当我开始思考这个问题的时候， 我发现很奇怪的一点，

which is that a lot of the key ingredients of our national identities

哪些才是关乎民族身份的关键地方呢？

actually come from outside our national borders.

相比于国家之外地方的。

Like, think of the letters that we use every day.

比如说字母， 我们每天都在用

I don't know if you realize,

我不知道你们是否意识到，

but the Latin script, the Latin alphabet that we use

拉丁语，我们使用的拉丁语字母

has its origins thousands of years ago,

起源于数千年之前，

near the Nile River.

在尼罗河附近。

It all started with a cow just like this,

这一切的开始就像这头牛一样，

that was captured by a scribe into an elegant hieroglyph.

被一个文士用优雅的象形文字 记录下来。

That hieroglyph was transcribed by a Semite in the Sinai

这种象形文字被闪米特人 在西奈半岛抄写下来，

into the letter aleph.

变成了aleph这个字母

Aleph traveled with Phoenicians and reached the European shores in Greece,

alephe被腓尼基人带着到了 希腊的欧洲海岸上，

where it became alpha,

在那里变成了alpha。

the mother of our letter A.

字母A的祖先。

So that's how an Egyptian cow became our letter A.

这就是一头埃及牛如何 变成字母A的。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And same thing with the Egyptian house that became bet, beta and B.

并且同样的事情也发生在埃及房子上， 它变成了bet，beta和B。

And the Egyptian fish that became daleth, delta and D.

与此同时埃及的鱼， 它变成了daleth，delta和D。

Our most fundamental texts are full of Egyptian cows,

我们最基本的文字中 充满了埃及的牛，

houses and fish.

房子和鱼。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And there are so many other examples.

这样的例子还有很多。

Take the United Kingdom and its monarchy.

以英国和他们的君主为例。

Queen Elizabeth II?

伊丽莎白女王二世？

German ancestry.

她有着德国血统。

The mottos on the royal coat of arms?

皇室纹章上的座右铭？

All written in French, not a single word of English.

全是用法语写的， 没有一个是英语。

Take France and it's iconic Eiffel Tower.

以法国和它的地标性建筑 埃菲尔铁塔为例。

The inspiration?

灵感来源？

The United States of America --

美利坚。

and I don't mean Las Vegas,

我并不是指拉斯维加斯赌城，

I mean 19th-century New York.

我说的是19世纪的纽约。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

This was the tallest building in New York in the mid-19th century.

这是19世纪中期， 纽约最高的建筑物。

Does it remind you of something?

这有没有让你想起点什么？

And you may think of China as a self-contained civilization,

你们可能会想到中国， 一个自给自足的文明，

protected behind its Great Wall.

被长城守护着。

But think twice.

但再仔细想想。

The Chinese official ideology?

中国的官方意识形态？

Marxism, made in Germany.

马克思主义，起源于德国。

One of China's biggest religions?

中国最大的宗教？

Buddhism, imported from India.

佛教，从印度传入。

India's favorite pastime?

印度最流行的娱乐项目？

Cricket.

板球。

I really love this quote from Ashis Nandy,

我真的很喜欢阿希斯·南迪这句话，

who said, "Cricket is an Indian game accidentally discovered by the British."

“板球是个印度的游戏， 只是碰巧被英国人发明了。”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

So these are good reminders that a lot of what we love in our national traditions

所以这些都是很好的提醒， 告诉我们，大家所热爱的民族传统

actually come from previous waves of globalization.

实际上来源于早些年的 全球化风潮。

And beyond individual symbols, there are whole national traditions

除了个体的特征以外， 许多民族传统都是

that could not have existed without globalization.

若无全球化，是不可能存在的。

And the example that comes to my mind is a world-beloved national tradition:

我脑海里出现的一个例子， 就是全世界热爱的民族传统：

Italian cuisine.

意大利菜。

My friends, if you ever have a chance

我的朋友们啊， 你们若有机会

to go to a superauthentic Italian restaurant

去一个非常地道的意大利饭店，

that only serves ancient Roman recipes,

里面只提供古罗马的菜品，

my advice for you is: don't go.

我给你们的建议是：别去。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

You'd get very, very disappointed.

你会非常，非常失望的。

No spaghetti, no pasta --

没有意大利面，没有通心粉，

that really started in Sicily in the eighth century,

他们都起源于第八世纪的西西里岛，

when it was under Arabian rule.

当时还处于阿拉伯人的统治下。

No perfect espresso, no creamy cappuccino --

没有好喝的意式浓缩咖啡， 没有奶油卡布奇诺，

that came from Abyssinia via Yemen in the 17th century.

这些来源于阿比希尼亚， 在17世纪从也门传入。

And of course, no perfect pizza Napoletana --

当然了，也没有那不勒斯披萨——

how would you make it without the tomatoes of the New World?

若没来自新大陆的番茄 又怎么做呢？

No, instead, you would be served probably a lot of porridge,

然而，能给你提供的 可能是许多麦片粥

some vegetable -- mostly cabbage -- some cheese,

一些蔬菜，主要是卷心菜， 还有一些芝士，

and maybe if you're lucky,

如果你够幸运的话，

the absolute delicacy of that time --

当时绝对佳肴，

mmm, perfectly cooked fattened dormice.

嗯，精心烹饪的肥睡鼠。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Thankfully, it was not a close tradition preserved by fanatic watchdogs.

值得庆幸的是，它并非一个封闭的传统 并没有被狂热监督者保留下来。

No, it was an open process,

事实上，它是开放的过程，

nourished by explorers, traders, street sellers and innovative home cooks.

探险家，商人，小贩和创新的家厨 不断为其添砖加瓦。

And in many ways, globalization is a chance

从多个角度来说， 全球化是一个机遇

for our national traditions to be questioned, regenerated, reinterpreted,

能让我们民族的传统可以去 被质疑，再生，并且重新定义，

to attract new converts to stay vibrant and relevant over time.

能够吸引新的皈依者， 随时间推移保持活力和意义。

So just remember this:

所以，记住，

most of us nationalists in the world are globalists,

世界上大多数的 民族主义者，是全球主义者的，

and most of us globalists in the world are nationalists.

世界上大多数全球主义者 同时也是民族主义者。

A lot of what we like in our national traditions

许多我们喜欢的民族传统

come from outside our national borders.

来源于我们国度之外。

And the reason we venture outside our national borders

我们之所以向国度之外探险，

is to discover these other national traditions.

是为了发现其他的民族传统。

So the real question should not be

所以，真正的问题不应该是

to choose between nationalism and globalism.

在民族主义和全球主义中二选一。

The real questions is: How can we do both better?

真正的问题是，如何让两者更好？

It's a complex question for a complex world

这是一个复杂世界的复杂问题

that calls for creative, nonbinary solutions.

它需要有创意的，非二元的 解决策略。

What are you waiting for?

你们还在等什么呢？

Thank you.

谢谢

(Applause)

（掌声）