How nationalism and globalism can coexist | Wanis Kabbaj

Translator: Brian Greene Reviewer: Camille Martínez

譯者: Lilian Chiu 審譯者: Melody Tang

So two weeks ago, I searched the word "nationalist" on Twitter.

兩個星期前，我在推特上 搜索了「國家主義者」這個詞。

The results were quite colorful,

搜尋結果的描述五花八門，例如：

with expressions like, "Emboldened Racist Moron," --

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

"White Supremacist Idiot,"

「白人至上主義白痴」、

"Fascist Sock Puppets," --

「法西斯的傀儡」、

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

"Orwellian, Hitlerian, Terrifying."

「歐威爾主義的、 希特勒式的、讓人恐懼的。」

I then searched the word "globalist"

接著，我搜尋了「全球主義者」，

and got things like, "Socialist Sell-Outs,"

找到像這樣的詞： 「社會主義背叛者」、

"Disgusting Corporate Propaganda,"

「讓人作嘔的企業宣傳」、

"Elitist Financial Overlords,"

「精英財務超載」、

"Ruthless Cosmopolitan Rats."

「無情的世界主義鼠輩」。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

就算是用社交媒體標準來看， 這些字眼也很殘酷且讓人反感。

Even by social media standards, the words are cruel and disgusting.

But they reflect the intensity of one of the most fundamental questions

但它反映出我們這個時代對於

最根本的問題之一的強烈程度：

of our times:

Nationalism or globalism -- what is the best path forward?

國家主義或全球主義—— 哪條路向前行才是最好的？

This question impacts everything we care about:

這個問題會影響我們在乎的一切：

our cultural identity,

我們的文化身分、

our prosperity,

我們的興盛、

our political systems --

我們的政治體制——

everything -- the health of our planet -- everything.

一切——地球的健康——一切。

So on the one hand, we have nationalism.

所以，一方面，我們有國家主義。

Collins defines it as a "devotion to one's nation,"

柯林斯字典將之定義為 「對自己國家的忠誠」，

but also, a "doctrine that puts national interests

還有「將國家利益

放在國際考量之上的一種主義」。

above international considerations."

For nationalists, our modern societies are built on national grounds:

對國家主義者而言，

我們的現代社會是 建立在國家的基礎上：

we share a land, a history, a culture, and we defend each other.

我們的土地、歷史、 文化都是共有的，

而且我們保衛彼此。

In a big and chaotic world,

在一個大而混亂的世界裡，

they see nationalism as the only sensible way to maintain social stability.

他們認為國家主義是唯一可以 維持社會穩定的明智方式。

But alarmed globalists warn us:

但憂心的全球主義者警告我們：

self-centered nationalism can easily turn ugly.

自我中心的國家主義 很容易就會變得很醜惡。

We've seen it with 20th-century fascisms:

二十世紀法西斯主義 就是如此，我們已見識過：

bloody wars, millions of deaths, immeasurable destruction.

殺戮的戰爭、數百萬人喪命、 無法衡量的毀滅。

On the other hand, we have globalism.

另一方面，我們有全球主義。

The Oxford Living Dictionary defines it as:

牛津生活字典將它定義為：

"the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy

「以全球為基礎的

經濟和外交政策操作或規劃。」

on a global basis."

For nationalists, globalism is rapidly deconstructing

國家主義者認為 全球主義者正在快速地瓦解

what our ancestors took decades to build.

我們的祖先花了數十年 所建立的一切。

It's like spitting on our soldiers' tombs;

它就像是在對著 我們士兵的墳墓吐口水；

it's eroding our national solidarities

它在侵蝕我們國家的團結，

and opening the doors to foreign invasions.

並打開門讓其他國家入侵。

But globalists make the case that reinforcing our global governance

但全球主義者則主張

強化我們的全球治理

is the only way to tackle big supernational problems,

是處理國際性的大問題的唯一方式，

like nuclear proliferation,

比如核子武器擴張、

the global refugee crisis,

全球難民危機、

climate change or terrorism

氣候變遷、恐怖主義，

or even the consequences of superhuman AI.

或甚至超人類人工智慧的後果。

So we are at the crossroads,

所以，我們正處於十字路口，

and we are asked to choose:

我們被要求要做選擇：

nationalism or globalism?

國家主義或全球主義？

Having lived in four continents,

我曾經在四大洲住過，

I've always been interested in this question.

我一直對這個問題很感興趣。

But it took a whole new level when I saw this happening:

但當我看到以下的狀況時， 它已在完全不同的層級了：

the biggest surge in nationalist votes in Western democracies

在西方民主國家裡， 國家主義者的選票達到

自第二次世界大戰以來最大的激增。

since World War II.

All of a sudden, this isn't theory anymore.

突然間，國家主義不再只是理論了。

I mean, these political movements have built their success with ideas

我的意思是，這些政治運動的 成功所立基的理念

that could mean, down the road, losing my French citizenship

可能意味著一段時間後 我會失去我的法國公民資格，

because I'm North African

因為我是北非人，

or not being able to come back home to the US

或意味著我會無法回到美國，

because I come from a Muslim-majority country.

因為我來自多數人信奉回教的國家。

You know, when you live in a democracy,

當你生活在民主國家裡，

you live with this idea that your government will always protect you,

你抱著你的政府 永遠都會保護你的理念，

as long as you abide by the laws.

只要你守法即可。

With the rise of national populism,

隨著國家民粹主義的興起，

despite being the best citizen I can,

儘管我盡可能做最好的公民 ，

I now have to live with the idea that my government can hurt me

現在，我也必須要接受， 我的政府有可能會傷害我，

for reasons I cannot control.

基於我無法控制的理由。

It's very unsettling.

這很讓人不安。

But it forced me to rethink

但這也迫使我重新思考這個問題，

and rethink this question and try to think deeper.

並試著想得更深入。

And the more I thought about it,

我越去想它，

the more I started questioning the question.

我越會開始質疑這個問題本身。

Why would we have to choose between nationalism and globalism,

我們為什麼必須要在國家主義 和全球主義之間做選擇？

between loving our country and caring for the world?

在愛自己的國家和 關心全世界之間做出選擇？

There's no reason for that.

沒有理由要這麼做。 我們沒必要在家庭和國家之間，

We don't have to choose between family and country

or region or religion and country.

或地區或宗教和國家之間做出選擇。

We already have multiple identities, and we live with them very well.

我們已經有多種身分， 而且我們以這些身分過得很好。

Why would we have to choose between country and world?

為什麼我們必須要在國家 和世界之間做出選擇呢？

What if, instead of accepting this absurd choice,

若是我們拒絕接受這種荒謬的選擇，

we took it on ourselves to fight this dangerous, binary thinking?

我們自己擔起對抗這種危險的 二元思考的責任，會如何呢？

So for all the globalists in the audience,

對在座所有的全球主義者，

I want to ask:

我想要問：

When I say the word "nationalist," what image comes to your mind?

當我說「國家主義者」這個詞時， 你們的腦中出現的是什麼畫面？

Something like this?

像這樣嗎？

Believe me, I think of that, too.

相信我，我也會這樣想。

But I'd like you to remember that for most people,

但我希望你們能記得， 對大部分人來說，

nationalism feels more like this.

國家主義感覺比較像是這樣。

Or maybe like that.

或許像這樣。

You know, it's that thing inside you

它就是當你不小心在電視上看到

when you accidentally watch an obscure Olympic sport on TV --

難懂的奧運時，內在的感受——

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

wait --

等等——

and the mere sight of an unknown athlete wearing your national colors

你不過是看到不認識的運動員 穿著你的國家的顏色，

gets you all excited.

就讓你興奮起來。

Your heartbeat goes up,

你的心跳加速，

your stress level goes up,

你的壓力等級提高，

and you're standing in front of the TV

你站在電視機前面，

and screaming with passion for that athlete to win.

帶著熱情大叫， 希望那位運動員獲勝。

That's nationalism.

那就是國家主義。 它使人們很高興在一起，

It's people happy to be together,

happy to belong to a large national community.

很高興屬於一個大的國家共同體。

Why would it be wrong?

那怎麼會是錯的？

You know, globalists, you may think of nationalism

全球主義者們， 你們可能會認為國家主義是

as an old, 19th-century idea that is destined to fade.

十九世紀的古老想法， 注定會逐漸消失。

But I'm sorry to tell you that the facts are not on your side.

但，我很遺憾要告訴你們， 事實並不是在你們那一邊。

When the World Values Survey asked more than 89,000 people

當「世界價值觀調查」

向六十個國家的至少八萬九千人

across 60 countries

how proud they felt about their country,

詢問他們對於自己國家 感到多驕傲時，

88.5 percent said "very proud" or "quite proud" --

88.5% 的人說「非常驕傲」 或「相當驕傲」——

88.5 percent.

88.5%。

Nationalism is not going away anytime soon.

國家主義在近期內不會消失。

It's a powerful feeling that, according to another study,

它是一種很強烈的感覺。

另一項研究指出，

is a strong predictor of individual happiness.

它是用來預測個人幸福感的 重要預測指數。

It's crazy, but your happiness is more correlated with national satisfaction

聽起來很扯，但你的幸福感

與你對國家的滿意度 有很強的關聯性，

than with things you would expect, like household income

勝過你預期的其他因素， 例如家庭收入、

or your job satisfaction

你的工作滿意度、

or your health satisfaction.

或你的健康滿意度。

So if nationalism makes people happy,

所以，如果國家主義讓人民幸福，

why would anybody take it away from them?

為什麼會有人要將它奪走呢？

Fellow globalists, if you are like me,

全球主義朋友們， 如果你們和我一樣，

you may be attached to globalization for humanistic reasons.

你們依戀全球化的背後原因 可能和人性有關。

And you may take great joy in some of its accomplishments since 1945.

1945 年以後的一些全球化的成就 可能讓你感到很大的喜悅。

After all, major regions of the world have been exceptionally peaceful;

畢竟，世界上的主要地區 都一直非常和平；

extreme poverty rates around the globe are trending down;

全球的貧窮比率呈現下降趨勢；

and more than two billion people, most notably in Asia,

超過二十億人，最明顯是在亞洲，

show spectacular improvements in their standards of living.

在生活水準上有驚人的改善。

But studies also show that globalization has a dark side.

但研究也顯示， 全球化有一個黑暗面。

And left on the side of the road

數億名西方中產階級的人被遺忘了，

are hundreds of millions of people in Western middle classes

with anemic income growth for more than two decades,

他們的收入在二十多年以來 幾乎沒有增加，

possibly three decades, according to some studies.

根據一些研究，甚至長達三十年。

We cannot ignore this elephant in our room.

我們不能忽略這麼大的問題。

If anything, our collective energy would be better used

如果可以的話， 我們集體的能量最好能用來

finding ways to fix this aspect of globalization,

尋找解決全球化問題的方法，

instead of fighting this polarizing battle against nationalism.

而不是用來打這場對抗 國家主義的兩極化戰爭。

So now, the nationalists in the audience,

現在，在座的國家主義者，

I have some crusty, nonbinary nuggets for you.

我有一些有殼的 非二元金塊要給你們。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

When I say the word "globalist," what comes to your mind?

當我說「全球主義者」 這個詞時，你們想到什麼？

Out-of-touch, one-percent plutocrats?

不諳時勢、百分之一的富豪？

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Or maybe the heartless, greedy Wall Street type, right?

或者，也許是沒心肝又貪心的 華爾街類型，對嗎？

Or maybe people like me, with multiple origins,

或者，像我這樣的人， 有多重身分來源，

living in a big, cosmopolitan metropolis.

住在世界性的大都市中。

Well, you remember that World Values Survey that I mentioned earlier?

你們還記得我剛才提到的 世界價值觀調查嗎？

It showed another fascinating finding:

它還有另一項很迷人的發現：

71 percent of the world population agreed with the statement,

世界人口中有 71%

同意「我是世界公民」這項陳述。

"I am a citizen of the world."

Do you know what it means?

你們知道它意味著什麼嗎？

Most of us are simultaneously proud of our country

我們大部分人不但 對自己的國家感到驕傲，

and citizens of the world.

同時也是世界公民。

And it gets even better.

更好的還在後面。

The citizens of the world in the survey show a higher level of national pride

在調查中的世界公民 對於自己國家的驕傲程度

than the ones that rejected that label.

比排斥這個標籤的人還高。

So once and for all, being a globalist doesn't mean betraying your country.

所以我再強調最後一次，

身為全球主義者 並不表示背叛你的國家。

It just means that you have enough social empathy,

它只表示你有足夠的社會同理心，

and you project some of it outside your national borders.

你把一部分同理心 擴展到你的國家之外。

Now, I know that when I dig into my own nationalist feelings,

我知道當我深入探究 我的國家主義感受時，

one of my anxieties versus the globalized world

我對於全球化世界的焦慮之一

is national identity:

就是國家身分：

How are we going to preserve what makes us special,

我們要如何保有我們的獨特性？

what makes us different,

我們的差異性？我們的團結性？

what brings us together?

And as I started thinking about it, I realized something really strange,

當我開始思考這問題時， 我發現了一件非常奇怪的事，

which is that a lot of the key ingredients of our national identities

那就是，我們的國家身分 其實有許多關鍵組成要素

actually come from outside our national borders.

都來自於我們的國界之外。

Like, think of the letters that we use every day.

比如，想想我們每天使用的字母，

I don't know if you realize,

不知道你們是否有發現，但，

but the Latin script, the Latin alphabet that we use

我們使用的拉丁字母

has its origins thousands of years ago,

源自於數千年前的尼羅河附近。

near the Nile River.

It all started with a cow just like this,

它是從像這樣的一隻牛開始，

that was captured by a scribe into an elegant hieroglyph.

牠被抄寫員畫成優雅的象形文字。

That hieroglyph was transcribed by a Semite in the Sinai

那象形文字被西奈山的 一名閃米特人抄寫，

into the letter aleph.

成為原始迦南文字的第一個字母。

Aleph traveled with Phoenicians and reached the European shores in Greece,

這個字母被腓尼基人 帶到了歐洲海岸的希臘，

where it became alpha,

在那裡，它演變成了 α， 後來成為我們的字母 A。

the mother of our letter A.

So that's how an Egyptian cow became our letter A.

埃及的牛就這樣 變成了我們的字母 A。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And same thing with the Egyptian house that became bet, beta and B.

同樣的，埃及的房子變成了

第二個字母，及後來的 β 和 B。

And the Egyptian fish that became daleth, delta and D.

埃及的魚變成了 第四個字母，及 δ 和 D。

Our most fundamental texts are full of Egyptian cows,

我們的基礎文本中充滿了

埃及的牛、房子，和魚。

houses and fish.

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

And there are so many other examples.

還有許多其他的例子。

Take the United Kingdom and its monarchy.

比如英國和它的君主政體。

Queen Elizabeth II?

伊莉莎白二世？

German ancestry.

德國血統。

The mottos on the royal coat of arms?

英國皇家徽章上的格言？

All written in French, not a single word of English.

都是用法文寫的，沒有一個英文字。

Take France and it's iconic Eiffel Tower.

比如法國和它標誌性的艾菲爾鐵塔。

The inspiration?

靈感來自哪裡呢？

The United States of America --

美國——

and I don't mean Las Vegas,

我不是指拉斯維加斯， 我是指十九世紀的紐約市。

I mean 19th-century New York.

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

This was the tallest building in New York in the mid-19th century.

這是十九世紀中期 紐約市最高的建築物。

Does it remind you of something?

它有沒有讓你想到什麼？

And you may think of China as a self-contained civilization,

你們可能認為中國 是獨立自足的文明，

protected behind its Great Wall.

被長城保護在裡面。

But think twice.

再想一下。

The Chinese official ideology?

中國官方的意識形態？

Marxism, made in Germany.

馬克思主義，德國製造。

One of China's biggest religions?

中國最大的宗教之一？

Buddhism, imported from India.

佛教，印度進口。

India's favorite pastime?

印度最愛的消遣娛樂？

Cricket.

板球。

I really love this quote from Ashis Nandy,

我真的很喜歡阿細斯·南迪 講的這句話，他說：

who said, "Cricket is an Indian game accidentally discovered by the British."

「板球是一項印度運動，

不小心被英國人發現的。」

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

So these are good reminders that a lot of what we love in our national traditions

所以，這些都是很好的提醒，

讓我們知道， 很多我們喜愛的國家傳統

actually come from previous waves of globalization.

其實是來自前幾波的全球化。

And beyond individual symbols, there are whole national traditions

除了個別符號之外， 還有非常多的國家傳統，

that could not have existed without globalization.

若沒有全球化是不可能存在的。

And the example that comes to my mind is a world-beloved national tradition:

我想到的一個例子是 受到全世界喜愛的一項國家傳統：

Italian cuisine.

意大利美食。

My friends, if you ever have a chance

朋友們，如果你曾經有機會

to go to a superauthentic Italian restaurant

去一間超級道地的義大利餐廳，

that only serves ancient Roman recipes,

只提供古早的羅馬食譜，

my advice for you is: don't go.

我給你的建議是：別去。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

You'd get very, very disappointed.

你會非常非常失望。

No spaghetti, no pasta --

沒有義大利麵——

that really started in Sicily in the eighth century,

它其實是第八世紀 從西西里島發展出來的，

when it was under Arabian rule.

當時是受到阿拉伯人統治。

No perfect espresso, no creamy cappuccino --

沒有完美的濃縮咖啡， 沒有加奶的卡普奇諾——

that came from Abyssinia via Yemen in the 17th century.

那是十七世紀從阿比西尼亞 經過葉門傳來的。

And of course, no perfect pizza Napoletana --

當然，也沒有完美的 拿坡里披薩——

how would you make it without the tomatoes of the New World?

沒有新世界的蕃茄怎麼 可能做出拿坡里披薩？

No, instead, you would be served probably a lot of porridge,

不可能，你反而可能會吃到很多粥、

some vegetable -- mostly cabbage -- some cheese,

一些蔬菜——大部分是高麗菜——

一些起士，

and maybe if you're lucky,

如果你幸運的話，

the absolute delicacy of that time --

還有當時絕對的佳餚——

mmm, perfectly cooked fattened dormice.

嗯，完美地烹調過的養肥的睡鼠。

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

Thankfully, it was not a close tradition preserved by fanatic watchdogs.

謝天謝地，不是由狂熱監視者 來保留封閉的傳統。

No, it was an open process,

不，它是一個開放的過程，

nourished by explorers, traders, street sellers and innovative home cooks.

由探索家、商人、攤販，

和創新的家庭廚師所滋養。

And in many ways, globalization is a chance

就許多方面來說， 全球化是一個機會，

for our national traditions to be questioned, regenerated, reinterpreted,

讓我們的國家傳統可以

被質疑、再生、重新詮釋，

to attract new converts to stay vibrant and relevant over time.

吸引新的愛好者，隨著時間的推移 仍然保持生氣、仍然存在。

So just remember this:

所以，記住這一點：

most of us nationalists in the world are globalists,

全世界大部分的國家主義者 都是全球主義者，

and most of us globalists in the world are nationalists.

世界上大部分的全球主義者 都是國家主義者。

A lot of what we like in our national traditions

許多我們喜愛的國家傳統

come from outside our national borders.

都來自我們國界以外的地方。

And the reason we venture outside our national borders

而我們冒險到 國界以外的地方的原因就是

is to discover these other national traditions.

去發掘這些其他的國家傳統。

So the real question should not be

所以，真正的問題應該不是

to choose between nationalism and globalism.

在國家主義和全球主義之間做選擇。

The real questions is: How can we do both better?

真正的問題是： 我們能把兩者都做更好嗎？

It's a complex question for a complex world

這是一個複雜世界的複雜問題，

that calls for creative, nonbinary solutions.

需要創意、非二元的解決方案。

What are you waiting for?

你們還在等什麼？

Thank you.

謝謝。

(Applause)

（掌聲）