What foods did your ancestors love? Aparna Pallavi

Transcriber: Joseph Geni Reviewer: Camille Martínez

翻译人员: Wanting Zhong 校对人员: Yolanda Zhang

Last year, I was living with this indigenous family in India.

去年，我住在印度的 一个土著家庭里。

One afternoon,

一天下午，

the young son was eating,

这家的小儿子在吃饭，

and at the sight of me, he quickly hid his curry behind his back.

一看见我，他就赶紧 把他的咖喱藏在背后。

It took a lot of persuasion to get him to show me what he was eating.

我费劲九牛二虎之力， 才说服他给我看看他在吃什么。

It turned out to be moth larvae,

原来他在吃蛾子幼虫，

a traditional delicacy with the Madia indigenous people.

这是马迪亚（Madia） 土著人民的传统美食。

I cried,

我大喊，

"Oh my God, you're eating these!

“哦天啊，你在吃这个！

I hope there's a little left for me!"

希望还能给我剩一点！”

I saw disbelief in the boy's eyes.

我在小男孩眼里看到了 难以置信的神色。

"You ... eat these?"

“你……吃这些？”

"I love these," I replied.

“我可爱吃了，”我回答道。

I could see he did not trust me one bit.

我可以看出来， 他完全不信我说的任何一个字。

How could an urban, educated woman like the same food as him?

一位受过教育的城市女性 怎么可能和他喜欢同样的食物？

Later, I broached the subject with his father,

后来，我和他父亲提到这件事，

and it turned out to be a mighty touchy affair.

结果发现这竟然是个 相当敏感的话题。

He said things like,

这位父亲说，

"Oh, only this son of mine likes to eat it.

“哦，只有我这个儿子喜欢吃这玩意。

We tell him, 'Give it up. It's bad.'

我们告诉他，‘别吃了，很不好。’

He doesn't listen, you see.

你看他完全不听。

We gave up eating all this ages back."

我们很久以前就不吃这些东西了。”

"Why?" I asked.

“为什么？” 我问道，

"This is your traditional food.

“这是你们的传统食物，

It is available in your environment,

可以在生活环境中找到，

it is nutritious,

富有营养，

and -- I can vouch for it -- delicious.

而且我可以打包票，它也十分美味。

Why is it wrong to eat it?"

为什么不能吃它呢？”

The man fell silent.

男人陷入了沉默。

I asked,

我问道，

"Have you been told that your food is bad,

“是不是有人告诉你， 你们的食物不好，

that to eat it is backward,

吃它就是落后、

not civilized?"

不开化？”

He nodded silently.

他默默地点了点头。

This was one of the many, many times in my work with indigenous people in India

和这段经历一样， 在和印度的土著居民共事时，

我也曾无数次目睹 和食物有关的羞耻，

that I witnessed shame around food,

shame that the food you love to eat,

让他们感到羞耻的是， 自己爱吃的食物、

the food that has been eaten for generations,

代代相传的食物，

is somehow inferior,

不知为何变得低劣，

even subhuman.

甚至不是人吃的。

And this shame is not limited to out-of-the-way, icky foods

而这种羞耻不仅限于 稀奇怪状、倒人胃口的食物，

like insects or rats, maybe,

比如说昆虫或老鼠，

but extends to regular foods:

还涵盖了一般食物：

white vegetables,

白色蔬菜、

mushrooms, flowers --

菌类、花朵——

basically, anything that is foraged rather than cultivated.

基本上就是任何并非种植， 而是采摘的东西。

In indigenous India, this shame is omnipresent.

在印度的土著地区， 这种羞耻心无处不在。

Anything can trigger it.

任何事情都能将其触发。

One upper-caste vegetarian schoolmaster gets appointed in a school,

一位高种姓的素食主义校长 刚到一所学校就任，

within weeks, children are telling their parents it's yucky to eat crabs

不出几个星期，孩子们就在 跟家长说，吃螃蟹很恶心，

or sinful to eat meat.

或者吃肉有罪。

A government nutrition program serves fluffy white rice,

一个政府的营养项目 提供软乎乎的白米饭，

now no one wants to eat red rice or millets.

现在没人想吃红米或者小米了。

A nonprofit reaches this village with an ideal diet chart for pregnant women.

一个非营利组织在村里 宣传孕妇的理想食谱。

There you go.

结果呢，

All the expectant mothers are feeling sad

所有的准妈妈都很伤心，

that they cannot afford apples and crepes.

因为她们买不起苹果和葡萄。

And people just kind of forget the fruits

而人们就像是忘记了

在森林中地上随处可捡的果子。

that can be picked off the forest floor.

Health workers,

医疗工作者、

religious missionaries,

宗教传教士、

random government employees

任何政府职员，

and even their own educated children

甚至他们自己受过教育的孩子

are literally shouting it down at the indigenous people

都在朝土著人民喊话，

that their food is not good enough,

说他们的食物不够好，

not civilized enough.

不够文明开化。

And so food keeps disappearing,

于是一点一点地，

a little bit at a time.

食物在不停消失。

I'm wondering if you all have ever considered

不知你们可曾考虑过

whether your communities would have a similar history around food.

你们的社区是否有类似的 围绕食物的历史。

If you were to talk to your 90-year-old grandmother,

如果你去和 90 岁的祖母聊天，

would she talk about foods that you have never seen or heard of?

她是否会讲起你从未见过、 从未听过的食物？

Are you aware how much of your community's food

你是否意识到 你的社区的食物

is no longer available to you?

有多少已经吃不到了？

Local experts tell me

当地专家告诉我

that the South African food economy is now entirely based on imported foods.

南非的食品经济 现在已经完全基于进口食品。

Corn has become the staple,

玉米已经成为了主食，

while the local sorghum, millets, bulbs and tubers are all gone.

而当地的高粱、小米、 球茎和块茎全都不见了。

So are the wild legumes and vegetables,

野生豆类和蔬菜也都失去了踪影，

while people eat potatoes and onions, cabbages and carrots.

而人们吃的是土豆、洋葱、 卷心菜和胡萝卜。

In my country,

在我的祖国，

this loss of food is colossal.

食物的损失是巨大的。

Modern India is stuck with rice, wheat

现代印度已被米、麦子

and diabetes.

和糖尿病套牢了。

And we have totally forgotten foods like huge varieties of tubers,

我们已经完全忘记了 种类繁多的根茎作物、

tree saps, fish, shellfish,

树汁、鱼、贝类、

oil seeds,

油籽、

mollusks, mushrooms, insects,

软体动物、菌类、昆虫、

small, nonendangered animal meats,

小型非濒危动物肉类，

all of which used to be available right within our surroundings.

这些都曾触手可及。

So where has this food gone?

那么这些食物去了哪里？

Why are our modern food baskets so narrow?

为什么我们现代的菜篮子如此狭隘？

We could talk about the complex political economic and ecological reasons,

我们可以谈论复杂的 政治经济与生态原因，

but I am here to talk about this more human phenomenon of shame,

但在这里，我想要谈谈 更加人性的羞耻心现象，

because shame is the crucial point

因为羞耻心正是

at which food actually disappears off your plate.

真正让食物从餐桌上消失的关键所在。

What does shame do?

羞耻心会造成什么后果？

Shame makes you feel small,

羞耻心让你觉得渺小、

sad,

悲伤、

not worthy,

不值得、

subhuman.

非人类。

Shame creates a cognitive dissonance.

羞耻会造成认知失调。

It distorts food stories.

它会扭曲食物的故事。

Let us take this example.

让我举个例子。

How would you like to have

你想不想拥有

a wonderful, versatile staple

一种美妙的、用途繁多的、

that is available abundantly in your environment?

在环境中非常丰富的主食？

All you have to do is gather it,

你只需要采集它、

dry it, store it,

晾干贮藏，

and you have it for your whole year

然后你就拥有了一年的食物，

to cook as many different kinds of dishes as you want with it.

可以用它随心所欲地做出 种类丰富的菜肴。

India had just such a food, called "mahua,"

印度就有这样一种食物， 叫做 “马胡卡”（mahua），

this flower over there.

图中的这种花。

And I have been researching this food for the past three years now.

在过去三年时间里， 我一直在研究这种食物。

It is known to be highly nutritious in indigenous tradition

在土著传统以及科学知识里，

and in scientific knowledge.

它是一种非常营养的食物。

For the indigenous,

对于土著居民来说，

it used to be a staple for four to six months a year.

它曾是一年中四到六个月的主食。

In many ways, it is very similar to your local marula,

在很多方面，它都很像 你们南非当地的马鲁拉果（marula），

except that it is a flower, not a fruit.

不过它是一种花，不是果实。

Where the forests are rich,

在森林丰饶的地方，

people can still get enough to eat for the whole year

人们仍能采集到一年分量的食物，

and enough spare to sell.

甚至还有剩余的可以拿去贩卖。

I found 35 different dishes with mahua

我找到了 35 道用马胡卡做的菜，

that no one cooks anymore.

但现在已经没有人会做了。

This food is no longer even recognized as a food,

这种食材甚至已不被当做食物，

but as raw material for liquor.

而是一种酿酒的原料。

You could be arrested for having it in your house.

如果家里有马胡卡， 你甚至可能会被逮捕。

Reason? Shame.

为什么？因为羞耻。

I talked to indigenous people all over India

我和印度各地的土著人民聊过

about why mahua is no longer eaten.

为什么他们不再吃马胡卡了。

And I got the exact same answer.

每次我都得到了一模一样的回答。

"Oh, we used to eat it when we were dirt-poor and starving.

“ 哦，以前我们穷得 喝西北风的时候吃过。

Why should we eat it now?

为什么现在还要吃呢？

We have rice or wheat."

我们有米和麦子了啊。”

And almost in the same breath,

而几乎同时，

people also tell me how nutritious mahua is.

人们也会告诉我 马胡卡多么有营养。

There are always stories of elders who used to eat mahua.

我总会听到吃马胡卡的老人的故事。

"This grandmother of ours, she had 10 children,

“我们这个奶奶， 她生了 10 个孩子，

and still she used to work so hard, never tired, never sick."

但她还是那么拼命干活， 从来不知疲倦，也从不生病。”

The exact same dual narrative every single where.

每一个地方都有 完全相同的双重叙事。

How come?

为什么会这样？

How does the same food

为什么几乎在同一句话里，

get to be seen as very nutritious and a poverty food,

同一种食物既是穷人的口粮，

almost in the same sentence?

又非常有营养？

Same goes for other forest foods.

其它森林食材也是如此。

I have heard story after heartrending story

我听了一个又一个令人心痛的

of famine and starvation,

饥荒与饥饿的故事，

of people surviving on trash foraged out of the forest,

人们只能靠从森林里捡的垃圾活命，

because there was no food.

因为没有吃的。

If I dig a little deeper,

如果我再深挖一点，

it turns out the lack was not of food per se

就能发现缺乏的不是吃的，

but of something respectable like rice.

而是米饭这类体面的食物。

I asked them,

我问他们，

"How did you learn that your so-called trash is edible?

“你们怎么知道这些 所谓的垃圾是可以吃的？

Who told you that certain bitter tubers can be sweetened

是谁告诉你们 某些苦涩的植物根茎

by leaving them in a stream overnight?

只需放在溪流里过夜 就能变甜？

Or how to take the meat out of a snail shell?

是谁教会你们从螺壳里挖肉？

Or how to set a trap for a wild rat?"

或者设置陷阱捕捉野鼠？”

That is when they start scratching their heads,

这时候他们就会开始挠头，

and they realize that they learned it from their own elders,

然后意识到这都是 他们自己的长辈教的，

that their ancestors had lived and thrived on these foods for centuries

在米出现之前，

他们的祖先已经依靠这些食物 蓬勃地生活了好几百年，

before rice came their way,

and were way healthier than their own generation.

并且比他们自己这一代要健康得多。

So this is how food works,

这就是食物的原理，

how shame works:

羞耻心的原理：

making food and food traditions disappear from people's lives and memories

让食物和饮食传统从人们的 生活与记忆中消失，

without their even realizing it.

他们自己甚至都意识不到。

So how do we undo this trend?

那么我们该如何逆转这个趋势呢？

How do we reclaim our beautiful and complex systems of natural food,

我们该如何重拾我们美好 而复杂的自然粮食系统？

food given to us lovingly by Mother Earth according to her own rhythm,

这些食物是大地母亲依照 她自身的规律，慈爱地赐予我们的，

food prepared by our foremothers with joy

是我们的先祖母亲 满怀喜悦地料理好，

and are eaten by our forefathers with gratitude,

我们的先祖父亲心怀感激地吃下的。

food that is healthy, local, natural,

我们该如何重拾 这些健康、本土、自然、

varied, delicious,

多样、美味、

not requiring cultivation,

不需要栽培、

not damaging our ecology,

不毁坏生态、

not costing a thing?

也不花一分钱的食物？

We all need this food,

我们都需要这些食物，

and I don't think I have to tell you why.

我觉得我也不必赘述缘由。

I don't have to tell you about the global health crisis,

我不必告诉大家全球的健康危机、

climate change, water crisis,

气候变化、水资源危机、

soil fatigue,

土壤退化、

collapsing agricultural systems,

农业系统崩溃等等

all that.

所有这些事情的重要性。

But for me, equally important reasons why we need these foods

但对于我来说，我们内心深处 需要这些食物的原因

are the deeply felt ones,

同样重要，

because food is so many things, you see.

因为食物饱含了如此丰富的意义，

Food is nourishment, comfort,

比如养育、慰藉、

creativity, community,

创意、社群、

pleasure, safety, identity

愉悦、安全、身份

and so much more.

等等诸多含义。

How we connect with our food

我们如何和食物相连接

defines so much in our lives.

定义了我们生活的方方面面。

It defines how we connect with our bodies,

食物定义了我们和身体连接的方式，

because our bodies are ultimately food.

因为我们的身体 归根结底就是食物塑造的。

It defines our basic sense of connection

食物定义了我们与自身存在

with our existence.

相联系的基本感受。

We need these foods most today

如今，我们最需要这些食物

to be able to redefine our space as humans

帮助我们重新定义身为人类

within the natural scheme of things.

在自然中的位置。

And are we needing such a redefinition today?

今天我们是否需要这样的重新定义？

For me, the only real answer is love,

对于我来说，唯一真正的答案是爱，

because love is the only thing that counters shame.

因为爱是唯一能与羞耻相抵的法宝。

And how do we bring more of this love into our connections with our food?

那么我们该如何把更多的爱 注入我们与食物的联系之中？

For me, love is, in a big way,

对于我来说，爱在很大程度上

about the willingness to slow down,

是关于甘愿放慢脚步，

to take the time to feel,

花时间去感受、

sense, listen, inquire.

感觉、聆听、探询。

It could be listening to our own bodies.

爱可以是倾听我们自己的身体。

What do they need beneath our food habits, beliefs

在我们的饮食习惯、信仰和嗜好之下，

and addictions?

我们的身体有什么需求？

It could be taking time out to examine those beliefs.

爱可以是留出时间研究这些信仰。

Where did they come from?

它们从何处而来？

It could be going back into our childhood.

爱可以是回溯我们的童年。

What foods did we love then,

那时我们喜欢吃什么食物，

and what has changed?

又有什么发生了改变？

It could be spending a quiet evening with an elder,

爱可以是和老人静静度过的夜晚，

listening to their food memories,

倾听他们关于食物的回忆，

maybe even helping them cook something they love

甚至可以帮他们做一道喜欢的菜

and sharing a meal.

一起分享。

Love could be about remembering

爱可以是想起

that humanity is vast

人类的种群如此多样，

and food choices differ.

饮食选择各不相同。

It could be about showing respect and curiosity

爱可以是在看见别人享用 非常陌生的食物时，

instead of censure

表现出尊敬与好奇，

when we see somebody enjoying a really unfamiliar food.

而不是训斥。

Love could be taking the time to inquire,

爱可以是花时间去询问，

to dig up information,

去挖掘信息，

reach out for connections.

去主动建立联系。

It could even be a quiet walk in the fynbos

爱甚至可以是在灌木丛生的 原野中静静地散步，

to see if a certain plant speaks up to you.

看看是否会有某株植物跟你搭话。

That happens.

这种事情是会发生的。

They speak to me all the time.

植物们总会对我说话。

And most of all,

而最重要的是，

love is to trust that these little exploratory steps

爱是相信这些微小的探索性的步伐

have the potential to lead us to something larger,

能够将我们领向更加伟大的事物，

sometimes to really surprising answers.

有时甚至是非常惊人的答案。

An indigenous medicine woman once told me

一位女性土著医师曾告诉过我，

that love is to walk on Mother Earth

爱就是身为大地母亲最怜爱的孩子

as her most beloved child,

在她的胸怀中行走，

to trust that she values an honest intention

相信她珍视每份诚实的用意，

and knows how to guide our steps.

并知道该如何指引我们。

I hope I have inspired you

希望我能启发各位

to start reconnecting with the food of your ancestors.

开始和你们祖先的食物 重新构筑联系。

Thank you for listening.

谢谢。

(Applause)

（掌声）