A Palestinian and an Israeli, Face to Face | Aziz Abu Sarah and Maoz Inon | TED

翻译人员: Laixi Kang 校对人员: Lening Xu

Maoz Inon: You know, Aziz,

毛兹·伊南：阿齐兹，

only four days ago,

仅仅在四天前，

last Thursday, we buried the remains of my parents.

也就是上周四， 我们埋葬了我父母的遗体。

My mom was burned so badly, she could not be identified.

我妈妈被烧伤得厉害， 以至于无法辨认她的身份。

I lost them on October 7.

10 月 7 日，我失去了他们。

I lost so many of my childhood friends,

我失去了很多儿时的朋友、

their parents, their children.

他们的父母和孩子。

Many were kidnapped to Gaza.

许多人被绑架到加沙。

I was drowning in an ocean of sorrow and pain.

我被悲伤和痛苦的海洋所淹没。

I was broken into pieces.

我已经支离破碎。

A few nights after losing them, I had a dream.

在失去我的父母的几天晚上之后， 我做了一个梦。

I was sleeping at night, crying.

晚上我睡着，哭泣着。

My entire body was in pain.

我的整个身体都痛苦不堪。

And through my tears,

透过我的眼泪，

I could see everyone crying.

我看到每一个人都在哭泣。

The entire humanity was crying with me.

整个人类都在和我一起哭泣。

Our tears went down on our faces

眼泪流过我们的脸颊，

to our bodies.

流到我们的身体上。

Our bodies were wounded, damaged from the war.

因为战争，我们的身体遍体鳞伤。

And then our tears washed our bodies and healed it,

我们的眼泪冲洗了我们的身体， 治愈了我们的身体，

making it whole.

使其变得完整。

Whole again.

重新变得完整。

And then our tears went down to the ground.

然后，我们的眼泪落到了地上。

And the ground was red from blood.

土地被鲜血浸染成一片红色。

Our tears washed the blood from the ground,

我们的眼泪冲刷掉血迹，

purifying the ground.

净化了土地。

And then the ground was beautiful and shining.

地面又重新变得美丽而耀眼。

And on that ground, I could see the path.

而在那片土地上，我看得清道路。

The path to peace.

通往和平的道路。

醒来时，我浑身颤抖不已。

I woke up shaking.

And immediately I knew that this is the path I must choose.

我马上就知道，这是我必须选择的道路。

The path of not taking revenge.

不复仇之路。

The path of reconciliation.

和解之路。

And you've been walking this path for decades.

而这条路，你已经走了几十年。

We met only once before October 7,

在 10 月 7 日前， 我们曾有过一面之缘，

even that was for two minutes, maybe.

尽管那次见面很短暂。

But you were among the first ones to reach out,

然而，你却是最早伸出援手、

send your condolence, support.

表示哀悼和支持的人之一。

And I will always love you

我将永远爱你，

for being there for me in my hardest time.

因为你在我最艰难的时刻支持着我。

Aziz Abu Sarah: Now Maoz when I sent you that message to offer my condolences

阿齐兹·阿布·萨拉： 在你的父母遇害之后，

我发消息表示哀悼时，

after your parents were killed,

I was surprised by your answer.

你的回复让我感到惊讶。

Not just to me, but your public answer.

不仅是对我的回信，还有你公开的回复。

Because you said you're not only crying for your parents,

因为你说，你不仅是在为你的父母哭泣，

you're also crying for the people in Gaza who are losing their lives,

还在为在加沙丧生的人们哭泣，

and that you do not want what happened to you

而且你不希望发生在你身上的事情

to be justifying anyone taking revenge.

成为任何人报复的理由。

You do not want to justify war.

你不想为战争辩护。

And it's so hard to do that.

要做到这一点谈何容易。

So much easier to want revenge, to be angry.

选择复仇、愤怒要轻松得多。

But you are a brave man.

但是你是个勇敢的人。

I needed much more time

当我 19 岁的哥哥泰西尔 被以色列士兵杀害时，

when my brother Tayseer, who was 19 years old,

was killed by Israeli soldiers.

我耗费了比你多得多的时间。

I was angry, I was bitter, and I wanted vengeance.

我感到愤怒、痛苦、怀恨在心。

I was 10 years old and I thought, there is no other choice.

那时我只有 10 岁， 我以为我们别无选择。

And only eight years later,

足足八年后，

when I went to study Hebrew with Jewish immigrants to Israel,

当我和犹太移民到以色列 一起学习希伯来语时，

that's only when I realized that we can be allies.

我才意识到我们可以成为盟友， 可以成为伙伴。

We can be partners.

And I realized that I do have a choice, regardless of what other people do,

我意识到，不管其他人做什么，

the choice is always mine.

我都有选择的权力。

And I do not want to take revenge.

我不想选择报复。

That when I choose to be angry and hateful

当我选择愤怒和仇恨时，

I'm being a slave to the person who killed my brother.

我就成为了杀害我哥哥的人的奴隶。

These last few months [have] been like a nightmare that never ends.

过去的几个月 就像一场永无止境的噩梦。

Everyone I know in Gaza have lost family members.

在加沙，我认识的每个人 都失去了家人。

My friend Abdelrahim,

我的朋友阿卜杜拉希姆，

he lost 50 people in his family.

他的家里有 50 人丧生。

In this photo you can see, all these kids have been killed.

这张照片中的所有孩子都被杀害了。

And in the upper middle photo,

在中上方的照片里，

the father of these kids was in Israel

这些孩子遇害时， 他们的父亲正在以色列。

when they were killed.

And ...

He wanted to come back to see his kids one last time.

他本想回家见孩子们最后一面。

He couldn't.

他未能如愿。

He ended up back to Gaza,

最终，他回到了加沙， 但一直未能回家。

but never was able to make it to his house.

What’s amazing, though, is Abdelrahim is just like you.

但令人吃惊的是， 阿卜杜拉希姆就像你一样。

I talked to him yesterday, and he said,

我昨天和他谈话时，他说：

"I'm still as committed to peace as I was before.

“我依然一如既往地、坚定地追求和平，

I do not want my story to lead to hate."

我不希望我的故事引发仇恨。”

And even now, as his parents are in northern Gaza,

即便是在现在，他的父母在加沙北部，

unable to get food, unable to leave,

无法获得食物，无法离开，

he's still committed to this message.

他依然对此坚信不疑。

And it makes me wonder,

我想知道，

how do you make such a choice in the midst of so much tragedy?

在一重重悲剧面前， 是什么促使你做出这样的选择的？

MI: You know, I've been interviewed like 100 times in the recent months,

伊南：最近几个月里， 我接受了一百来次采访 ，

and this is the most easiest question.

而这个问题是最简单的。

It's for my parents.

为了我的父母。

It's my parents' legacy.

这是我父母的遗产。

And when we put their remains in the ground,

当我们将他们的遗体埋葬时，

I realized that they prepared me for that moment.

我意识到他们早已教我 为那一刻做好了准备。

They taught me what to say

他们教会了我，在他们遇害后， 我应该说什么、做什么。

and how to act after they will be killed.

I was born in a kibbutz,

我出生在一个集体农场，

just a kilometer and a half from the border with Gaza,

离加沙地带的边境只有一公里半，

农场由我的祖父母建立。

that was established by my grandparents.

They were both Zionist pioneers,

他们都是犹太复国主义先驱者，

immigrated to Palestine

大约一个世纪前在英国委任统治时期 移民到巴勒斯坦。

under the British Mandate about a century ago.

And my father was also born in this kibbutz,

我的父亲也出生在这个集体农场，

and my father was a farmer.

是一位农民。

It's very, very difficult to be a farmer,

当一个农民非常非常难，

even more difficult to be in the tourism industry.

从事旅游业就更难了。

And one year, I remember that one year there was a drought.

我记得有一年发生了干旱。

And then the second, there was a flood.

第二年发了洪水。

And the third, there were insects.

第三年又闹了虫灾。

And at the end of each of those devastating seasons,

每一次灾年结束之时，

my father will always tell me,

我父亲总是告诉我说：

"Maoz, next year I'm going to sow again.

“毛兹，明年我要再次播种。

Because next year is going to be a better year."

因为明年会是更好的一年。”

And my mom was a very talented mandalas painter.

我妈妈是位极具才华的曼荼罗画家。

She painted thousands of mandala.

她创作了成千上万幅曼荼罗。

And from all the mandalas she painted, she gave me only one as a present.

在她画的所有曼荼罗中， 她只给了我一幅作为礼物。

This is the one she gave me.

这就是她送给我的那个曼荼罗。

And on this mandala, this is for you,

这张给你，这是我给你做的。

I made it for you.

And on the mandala she gave me, she wrote,

在她送给我的曼陀罗上，她写道：

"We can achieve all our dreams if we'll be brave enough to chase them."

“我们能实现一切梦想， 只要我们勇敢去追。”

And in the last 20 years I've been chasing and fulfilling many dreams.

在过去的 20 年里，我一直在 不断地追梦、圆梦。

I opened the first guest house ever in the old city of Nazareth,

我在拿撒勒老城开了有史以来 第一家客栈，名叫 Fauzi Azar。

the Fauzi Azar.

I was cofounding the Jesus Trail,

我共同创立了耶稣之路远足径、

Abraham Hostel and tours and many other dreams.

亚伯拉罕青旅和旅游公司， 实现了其它许多梦想。

And in all those dreams, I was following five steps.

在所有这些梦中，我遵循了五个步骤。

Dreaming,

首先，做梦。

many of us forgot or [aren't] brave enough to dream.

我们当中很多人忘记了怎么做梦， 亦或是不够勇敢。

Creating a partnership and a coalition with as many stakeholders as possible.

第二，与尽可能多的利益相关者 建立伙伴关系。

Reaching shared value and common ground

第三，与伙伴达成共同价值， 找到共同的立场。

between the partnership.

Writing a very detailed road map

第四，撰写详尽的路线图， 最后，执行。

and executing.

And I believe this is exactly what we need to do now

而且我相信，这正是我们 现在需要做的，

in order to make our dream into a reality.

以便将我们的梦想变为现实。

And I was partnering with Palestinians, with Israeli,

我合作的伙伴包括： 巴勒斯坦人、以色列人、

with Jordanian, with Egyptian.

约旦人和埃及人。

And I learned that the first step in reaching a shared society

我了解到，实现大同社会

and a shared future is knowing the other side's narrative.

和共同的未来的第一步 是了解对方的叙事。

And following your work for many years,

我多年来一直关注你的工作，

even though we met only once,

尽管我们只有过一面之缘，

I think there is no one in the world that knows better

但我认为，世界上没有人比我们更了解

how we can take our divided narratives

如何将分歧的叙事

and make them into a shared future and a shared society.

变成共同的未来、共享的社会。

So thank you for all that you've done so far.

因此，我想感谢你迄今为止 为此所做的一切。

Really, it's amazing.

你的工作举足轻重。

AAS: Now Maoz, I worked in 70 countries in peace and conflict.

萨拉：毛兹， 我在 70 个国家工作过。

And everywhere I worked,

无论身处哪个国家， 我发现我们都有同样的问题。

I found that we share the same problems.

The cause of conflicts are the same.

冲突的起因总是一样的。

It's lack of recognition,

缺乏对彼此的认可， 不愿意理解彼此的历史叙事，

not willing to understand each other’s historical narrative

and not having a shared vision for our future.

对我们的未来没有共同的愿景。

And not doing those things is a fatal mistake.

而这些不认可和不理解 是个致命的错误。

We live next to each other, and yet we are so divided.

我们互为邻里，却如此分裂。

We cannot talk, we cannot meet, we cannot have a conversation.

我们无法交流、无法见面， 无法进行谈话。

There are roadblocks, checkpoints, there are walls that divide us

重重路障、边防关卡、城墙将我们分开，

or societal pressure that makes us not being able to talk to each other.

来自社会的压力也使我们 无法互相交流。

And I know this because my dad's first time ever going to a synagogue

我之所以知道这一点， 是因为我父亲第一次去犹太教堂

was in the United States when he came to visit me.

是他来美国探望我的时候。

He went to a Friday prayer,

他去参加了一次主麻日聚礼， 但是清真寺人满为患，

but the mosque was too full

and the Muslim community rented a synagogue.

于是穆斯林社区租了一间犹太教堂。

So he ended up praying in a synagogue.

结果他最后在一间犹太教堂里祈祷。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And he came back and told me, and he was so excited about it.

然后他回来告诉我说，他为此兴奋极了。

And I thought, Jerusalem is full of synagogues.

我心想，耶路撒冷到处都是犹太教堂。

And yet his first time ever being in a synagogue is in the States.

然而，他第一次进入犹太教堂 却是在美国。

That's how divided we are,

我们之间的分歧如此之大，

how little we know about each other.

对彼此知之甚少。

But we also must learn to ask hard questions,

但同时，我们也必须学会 问复杂的问题，

be honest and willing to listen.

对彼此坦诚以待，乐于倾听。

My dad’s first time to a peace meeting was one that I organized.

我父亲第一次参加的和平会议 是由我组织的。

And when he came, he asked a question that I thought, oh my goodness,

当他来参会的时候， 问了一个让我大惊失色的问题。

how could you do that?

He said, "Did the Holocaust happen?"

他说：“犹太人大屠杀发生过吗？”

And just like the gasps we hear here,

能听到现场有些观众倒抽了一口凉气。

everybody in the meeting was terrified.

当时也是这样，与会者都紧张极了。

I thought, I'm going to lose my job for my dad asking the question

我想，因为我爸的一个问题， 我会丢掉饭碗，

and regretted inviting him to the peace meeting.

对邀请他来参加和平会议 而感到后悔不已。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But you know what?

但是你猜怎么着？

Because of that question,

因为他这个问题，

one of the Holocaust survivors in the meeting,

参会的大屠杀幸存者之一

he took my dad and 70 other Palestinians to the Holocaust memorial.

带我父亲和其他 70 名巴勒斯坦人 去了大屠杀纪念馆。

It was the first time such a big delegation going there,

这是纪念馆第一次迎接 如此庞大的代表团，

and they had this hard conversation.

他们在那里进行了艰难的谈话。

Later, the Israelis in the meeting

后来，参会的以色列人

ended up coming and having a similar conversation

反过来就巴勒斯坦的历史和叙事 进行了类似的对话，

about Palestinian history and narrative,

going to a town that was destroyed in 1948, in the Nakba.

来到了一个 1948 年 在巴勒斯坦人大逃亡中被摧毁的城镇。

I've been working in the last 20-some years

在过去的二十余年里，

and finding ways to ask those questions.

我一直在努力想方设法问这些问题。

In 2009, I co-founded Mejdi Tours and later Interact International

2009 年，我与我的犹太朋友斯科特 共同创立了迈杰迪旅游公司（Mejdi Tours）

with my Jewish friend, Scott.

和后来的互动国际 （ Interact International ）。

To do that, to give a context,

为了提供这样一个场景， 一个可以建立公民外交官运动的地方，

a place where we can build a movement of citizen diplomats,

where you can have dual-narrative tours,

在那里公众可以进行双重叙事之旅，

an Israeli and a Palestinian co-leading a tour,

一名以色列人和一名巴勒斯坦人 共同担任导游，

and then in many other, dozen of other countries.

去到其它多个国家。

So we can find a framework,

这样我们可以找到一个框架，

we can say: How can I learn from you?

可以问：我怎样才能向你学习？

What is it that we can push each other to do?

我们能互相督促对方做什么？

And maybe that’s the question: What have we learned from each other?

也许这就是问题所在： 我们从彼此那里学到了什么？

MI: Yeah, so regarding to your father's questions,

伊南：是的。说起你父亲的问题，

I think it was November that a very, very good Palestinian friend asked me,

我想是 11 月吧，一位非常要好的 巴勒斯坦朋友问我：

“Maoz, can I ask you a difficult question?”

“毛兹，我能问你一个棘手的问题吗？”

I said, "You are my friend, You can ask whatever you like."

我说：“你是我的朋友， 你可以随便问。”

She asked me, "Maoz, maybe your parents' house

她问我：“毛兹，也许你父母的房子

was burned from the crossfire,

是被以色列国防军

from the IDF, and not from the Hamas?”

而不是被哈马斯烧毁的？”

And she was literally denying October 7,

她否认了 10 月 7 日袭击事件，

and I was shocked.

我感到十分震惊。

I didn't know what to say.

我无言以对。

And then I stopped for a second

停了一秒后，

and I asked, I told her, "You know what?

我问她：

What does it matter?

”这有什么关系？

What does it matter?

这有什么关系？

My parents are dead.

我的父母死了。

And they are dead because of the conflict and the war

而他们遇害的原因 是长时间的战争和冲突。

that has been going on for so long.

And it's our mission to stop it."

阻止这种情况是我们的使命。”

And I learned so much in the recent months from speaking,

最近几个月，我从与巴勒斯坦人的交谈和

dialoguing with Palestinians,

对话中学到了很多东西，

I learned that we must forgive for the past.

我学到了我们必须原谅过去。

We must forgive for the present.

我们必须原谅现在。

But we cannot and should not forgive for the future.

但是我们不能也不应该原谅未来。

Not to ourself and to no one else

无论是对我们自己，还是对他人，

if you want to make the future a better future.

如果你想让未来变得更美好的话。

I learned that our stories were split in the past,

我了解到，我们的叙事分裂点在过去，

with a different chosen son of Abraham.

分裂在亚伯拉罕选择的儿子上。

And for many centuries, our stories were parallel.

几个世纪以来，我们的叙事相互平行。

And the gap between them is becoming wider and wider

随着时代变迁， 两条叙事线的鸿沟越变越大。

as we are getting to the present.

And it began to get wider with the beginning of the Zionist movement

犹太复国主义运动 和巴勒斯坦民族运动的开始

and the Palestinian national movement,

加大了我们之间的距离。

and with all the war we've been waging on each other,

我们相互发动的一次次战争 加大了我们之间的距离。

it's becoming wider and wider.

And now in the present, it's as wide as ever.

如今，这道鸿沟比以往都要宽。

Our stories were never [as] apart as they are now.

我们的叙事从未像当下这样大相径庭。

But there is a miracle.

但是有一个奇迹。

There is a miracle, our stories meet.

这奇迹便是，我们的故事汇合了。

They meet in the future.

它们在未来的某处汇合了。

We meet in the future that is based on reconciliation and recognition.

这两条叙事将在 和解与认可的基础上汇合。

That is based on security and safety.

在保障与安全的基础上汇合。

And of course, on equality.

当然，还是在平等的基础上。

And now we must use the same steps I used to fulfill,

我们需要采用我个人

or we used to fulfill our previous dreams,

以及我们共同实现梦想的步骤，

in making this dream into a reality.

来使这个梦想也变为现实。

We are all dreaming of peace.

我们都梦想着和平。

We are building a coalition.

我们正在建立一个联盟，

Palestinians, Israelis, supported from all over the world.

由巴勒斯坦人，以色列人， 以及来自世界各地的支持者组成。

We share the same values and common ground.

我们有着相同的价值观，有共同的基础。

We are writing now,

目前，我们正在编写

right now we are writing a very detailed, informative road map,

一份详尽实用的蓝图，

and we are already starting to execute.

并且已经开始开展行动。

And what we are doing now, tonight,

我们今晚的活动

we are executing the first two chapters of our road map.

就是在执行路线图的前两章。

We are amplifying our voices

我们正在扩大我们的声音，

and building our legitimacy

也正在建立我们 作为未来领导人的认可度。

as the leaders of the future.

And I could not ask for a better partner,

而且我找不到比你更好的伙伴，

for a better companion than you, Aziz.

更好的同行者，阿齐兹。

AAS: Now when people hear this,

萨拉：当人们听到这个——

and I think we are much stronger together than ever alone,

我认为，我们同舟共济 将比孤军奋战更加强大，

we've been doing so much work

而且我们在学校里做了许多 反犹太仇恨、反穆斯林仇恨的工作，

on campuses with anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim hate,

with helping people in our own community,

我们帮助自己社区的人们， 寻找组织的方式。

finding ways to organize.

But I think people can hear this and think,

但我想，听到这句话后，人们可能会想：

"So you can lose people in your family and not be angry?"

“难道你是说，我们可以失去至亲 而不感到愤怒吗？”

And I think that’s a mistake.

这是错的。我们很愤怒。 我非常愤怒。

We are angry.

I am very angry.

Every time I read the newspaper, I'm angry.

每当我读报纸时，我都会感到愤怒。

Every time I talk to one of my friends in Gaza, I am angry.

每当我和身处加沙的朋友们聊天， 我都会感到愤怒。

But the thing is, I do not let anger,

但重要的是，

and we do not let anger, drown us in hate

我们不让愤怒将我们淹没于 仇恨和复仇心之中。

and wanting vengeance.

Instead, I think of anger like a nuclear power.

相反，我认为愤怒就像核能。

It can lead to destruction, and it can make light.

它可以造成破坏，也可以发光发热。

And my hope is that we continue to use anger

我希望我们能继续利用我们的愤怒，

as a way to bring people together,

使人们团结起来，

to ask ourselves,

并扪心自问： “我能做些什么来让事态变得更好？”

"What can I do to make things better?"

MI: And that brings me to the most important ...

伊南：这就说到最重要的一点——

(Applause)

（掌声）

I love you.

我爱你。

And it brings me to the most important lessons I learned.

这使我想到了我学到的最重要的教训。

That hope is an action.

持有希望就是一种行动。

It's not something you find, not something you can lose.

希望不是你可以遗失或找到的东西。

It's something you are making.

希望是由你自己创造的。

And I came up with a very basic formula, recipe, how to make hope.

然后我想出了一个简单的 创造希望的公式。

First, like love, you cannot do it by yourself.

首先，就像爱情一样， 你不能独自创造希望。

You are doing it with others.

你要和别人一起。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

And you are starting, we are starting because now it's we,

你迈出了这一步，不只是你， 我们都迈出了这一步，

we are starting by envisioning a better future.

从设想一个更美好的未来开始。

And then we are acting to make this future into a reality.

我们正在采取行动， 将这个未来变为现实。

It's act, we must act.

我们必须采取行动。

And through the process,

在整个过程中， 我们始终需要首先说服自己，

we always need to convince, first ourselves,

and all our coalition

说服我们的盟友

and everyone that is willing to listen,

和所有愿意倾听的人，

that our actions are effective.

让大家相信我们的行动是有效的。

It's very simple.

这很简单。

It's very simple.

And this is what we must do.

这是我们必须做的。

And I believe that if we will be brave enough and brilliant enough,

而且我相信，如果我们足够有勇有谋，

we can make this future into a reality

我们就可以在不久的将来 将这个未来变为现实。

in the near future.

That by 2030 or before,

我相信，在 2030 年，甚至更早，

there's going to be peace between the river and the sea.

五湖四海间将重获和平。

AAS: You know ...

(Applause)

（掌声）

We say today, ideas change everything.

萨拉：如今我们总是说， 想法可以改变一切。

And I have an idea.

我有这么一个想法。

People look at us and think we are divided

乍眼一看，人们认为我们存在分歧，

because you’re Israeli and I’m Palestinian,

因为你是以色列人，我是巴勒斯坦人， 分别是犹太人和穆斯林。

Muslims and Jews.

But if you must divide us,

但如果你要分裂我们，

people should divide us as those of us who believe in justice,

请把我们分成信仰正义、

peace and equality,

和平、平等的人，

and those who don’t, yet.

以及那些暂且还不相信的人。

And our work here

我们现在的工作

is to invite everyone, to invite you, to join us into our work,

是邀请各位加入我们，

into bringing everyone together

让所有人团结起来，

to take a stand that says, “We are not enemies.”

表明立场：“我们不是敌人。”

Do not be mistaken.

请不要误会。

We lost our family members,

我们失去了家人，

we did not lose our sanity, we did not lose our minds.

但我们没有失去理智。

We are here together saying we will fight on the same side

我们在此共同表示， 我们将站在同一战线，

for justice and for peace.

为正义与和平而战。

Thank you.

谢谢。

(Applause)

（掌声）