The Surprising Psychology Behind Your Urge to Break the Rules | Paul Bloom | TED

Prevodilac: Milenka Okuka Lektor: Una Kavazović

About 1,600 years ago,

Pre oko 1 600 godina,

St. Augustine wrote "The Confessions,"

Sv. Avgustin je napisao „Ispovesti”,

which was the story of his youthful descent into sin

a to je bila priča o njegovom mladalačkom padu u greh

and his later conversion to Christianity.

i njegovom kasnijem preobraćanju u hrišćanstvo.

And book two of “The Confessions” has a great beginning:

A druga knjiga „Ispovesti” ima sjajan početak:

"I propose now to set down my past wickedness

„Hoću da se podsetim na prošle svoje sramote

and a carnal corruption of my soul."

i putene pokvarenosti duše svoje.”

So you expect sex.

Dakle, očekujete seks.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

But to the disappointment of readers over the centuries,

Međutim, na viševekovno raozočaranje čitalaca,

the sin that Augustine talks about... isn’t carnal at all.

greh o kom Avgustin govori... uopšte nije puten.

It has to do with pears.

Ima veze sa kruškama.

He and his friends break into an orchard

On i njegovi prijatelji upadaju u voćnjak

and they steal some pears.

i kradu nešto krušaka.

And that was it.

I to bi bilo to.

They didn’t have anything against the person who owned the orchard.

Nisu imali ništa protive osobe koja je posedovala voćnjak.

They weren’t hungry; they threw the pears to pigs.

Nisu bili gladni; bacili su kruške svinjama.

What stunned Augustine and disturbed him

Ono što je zapanjilo i uznemirilo Avgustina

was that he seemed to be motivated by a desire just to do wrong.

je što se činilo da je motivisan žudnjom da prosto nanese zlo.

He writes, "If any part of one of those pears passed my lips,

Piše: „Jer ako je šta od onih krušaka i ušlo u moja usta,

it was the sin that gave it flavor.

začin mu je bio moj zločin.

I had no motivation for wickedness except wickedness itself.

Nisam imao podisticaj za grehom, osim greha samog.

I was foul and I loved it."

Bio sam nevaljao i sviđalo mi se.”

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Now I'm a psychologist

Sad, ja sam psiholog

and I was interested in real-life stories of perverse actions,

i zainteresovao sam se za stvarne priče o izopačenim postupcima,

so I started The Perversity Project

pa sam pokrenuo Projekat izopačenosti

where I invited people to send me stories about perverse things that they did.

gde sam pozvao ljude da mi šalju priče o izopačenostima koje su počinili.

I defined these acts as

Definisao sam ove postupke kao

„kad odlučite da uradite nešto za šta znate da je pogrešno,

"when you choose to do something you know is wrong,

morally or otherwise,

moralno ili na drugi način,

at least, in part, because it's wrong."

barem delimično jer je pogrešno.”

So one of the first stories I got was,

Jedna od prvih priča koje sam dobio je bila:

"Flirted with a woman's boyfriend knowing fully well he liked me.

„Flertovala sam sa momkom druge žene savršeno svesna da mu se sviđam.

I knew I could steal him if I wanted, but I didn't want to do that.

Znala sam da mogu da ga preotmem ako želim, ali nisam želela to.

I just wanted her to feel uncomfortable

Samo sam želela da se ona oseća neprijatno

whenever the three of us were in the same room."

kad god bismo nas troje bili u istoj prostoriji.”

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

"Causing people pain is wrong, but that's exactly why I did it."

„Nanošenje bola ljudima je pogrešno, ali baš zato sam to radila.”

And in fact, this is the plot of the Dolly Parton song "Jolene."

I zapravo, ovo je zaplet pesme „Džolin” od Doli Parton.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Sometimes it's self destructive.

Ponekad je autodestruktivno.

A young man wrote to me, "Ice skating on a pond,

Mladić mi je pisao: „Klizanje na ledu na jezeru,

dark unfrozen spot 30 yards out,

tamna, nezaleđena tačka tridesetak metara ispred,

instead of avoiding it, I skate towards it,

umesto da je izbegnem, klizam ka njoj,

knowing but wondering, knowing but wondering...

znajući, ali pitajući se, znajući, ali pitajući se...

and splash!"

i pljus!”

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Now psychologists have long been interested

Psiholozi su već dugo zainteresovani

in these sort of violent, disruptive, perverse acts

za ove nasilne, remetilačke, izopačene postupke,

and the kinds of people who do them.

kao i za ljude koji ih obavljaju.

An example people often give is the Joker from the “Batman” comics.

Primer koji ljudi često navode je Džoker iz stripova o Betmenu.

In Christopher Nolan's film "The Dark Knight,"

U filmu Kristofera Nolana „Mračni vitez”,

Alfred, Batman’s butler, describes the Joker by saying,

Alfred, Betmenov batler, opisuje Džokera rečima:

"Some men can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with.

„Neki ljudi se ne mogu potkupiti, uceniti, ubediti, niti se može s njima pregovarati.

Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Neki ljudi samo žele da gledaju svet kako gori.”

And psychologists have thought up a "need for chaos" scale

A psiholozi su osmislili skalu „potrebe za haosom”

that gives you a bunch of statements

koja vam nudi gomilu izjava,

and how much you agree with them

i to koliko se slažete s njima

will tell you how much you want to watch the world burn.

saopštava vam koliko želite da gledate svet kako gori.

So do this quietly in your head.

Stoga odradite ovo tiho u glavama.

"I need chaos around me.

„Potrebno je da imam haos oko sebe.

It's too boring if nothing is going on."

Predosadno je kad se ništa ne dešava.”

"Sometimes I just like destroying beautiful things."

„Ponekad prosto volim da uništavam lepe stvari.”

But not all the stories I got had that kind of nature.

Međutim, nisu sve priče koje sam dobio bile po prirodi ovog tipa.

Some were a little bit more benign.

Neke su bile malčice bezazlenije.

Here's one of my favorites.

Evo jedne od mojih omiljenih.

"On one occasion in my early 20s, I was out with a friend.

„Jednom prilikom u ranim 20-im, bio sam u izlasku s prijateljem.

He decided to get himself an ice cream

Odlučio je da poruči sebi sladoled

and before he had a chance to try it, I stuck my finger in it."

i pre nego što je uspeo da ga proba, zabio sam prst u njega.”

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

"I tried to play it off as a joke,

„Pokušao sam da to predstavim kao šalu,

but really I had the sudden thought,

ali usitinu sam imao iznenadnu misao:

’Man, it would be -- messed up

’Čoveče, bilo bi pokvareno,

if I just jammed my finger in his ice cream.'"

ako bih samo zabio prst u njegov sladoled.’”

Someone else wrote me, "When I was in a professional choir,

Neko drugi mi je pisao: „Kada sam bio u profesionalnom horu,

at every concert,

na svakom koncertu,

I felt the desire to sing a few notes very incorrectly on purpose.

osećao sam potrebu da namerno pevam nekoliko nota skroz pogrešno.

To this day, I don't completely understand why."

Ni dan-danas mi nije najjasnije zašto.”

Someone else wrote me, and this is kind of the sweetest, saddest

Neko drugi mi je pisao, a ovo je nekako najslađi, najtužniji

little example of modest perversity:

primerčić skromne izopačenosti:

“Sometimes I walk on the grass instead of the path

„Ponekad hodam po travi umesto po stazi

just because I know it's wrong."

samo zato što znam da je pogrešno.”

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Now a lot of perversity makes the world worse.

Zbog većine izopačenosti svet je gore mesto.

I wouldn't want an Uber driver

Ne bih želeo taksistu

who scores high on a "need for chaos" scale.

koji ima visok prosek na skali „potrebe za haosom”.

And I don't want a friend or a colleague either.

I ne bih poželeo takvog prijatelja ili kolegu.

But sometimes, I'll suggest to you,

Ponekad pak, predložiću vam,

perversity can be clever, creative, beautiful.

izopačenost može da bude pametna, kreativna, prelepa.

And there are some examples from art.

I imamo neke primere iz umetnosti.

There was an illustrious art exhibition in New York City in 1917, and they said,

Na čuvenoj umetničkoj izložbi u Njujorku 1917. su rekli:

"You could send in anything you want, we'll accept everything."

„Možete poslati šta vam je volja, sve prihvatamo.”

So Marcel Duchamp sent in a urinal, described [as] a fountain,

Pa je Marsel Dišan poslao bide, koga je opisao kao fontanu,

and they rejected it.

a oni su ga odbili.

They said, "No, no, we just accept artwork."

Rekli su: „Ne, ne, prihvatamo samo umetnost.”

But Duchamp insisted it was artwork

Dišan je pak insistirao da se radi o umetnosti,

and the resulting controversy turned out to be one of the pivotal moments

a ispostavilo se da je nastala kontroverza bila jedan od ključnih momenata

in the history of modern art.

u istoriji savremene umetnosti.

Or take Banksy.

Ili uzmite Benksija.

A few years ago,

Pre nekoliko godina,

Banksy sold a painting “Girl with Balloon” at Sotheby’s, at auction,

Benksi je prodao sliku „Devojka s balonom” na aukciji u Sotebiju

and he set up the frame so that the moment the painting was sold,

i podesio je ram da u trenutku kada se slika proda,

the moment the gavel went "boom,"

u trenutku kad čekić uradi „bum”,

a machine in the frame shredded the painting halfway through,

mašina u ramu pocepa sliku do pola,

horrifying the audience.

na užasavanje publike.

But... getting on the front pages of newspapers all over the world.

Međutim, stigao je na naslovne strane novina širom sveta.

Later on, describing it, Banksy quotes a Russian anarchist who says,

Kasnije je Benksi opisujući čin citirao ruskog anarhistu koji je rekao:

"The urge to destroy is also a creative urge."

„Nagon za uništavanjem je takođe kreativni nagon.”

Or take comedy.

Ili uzmite komediju.

Perversity is part and parcel of comedy.

Izopačenost je suštinski deo komedije.

So much of what's funny

Toliko toga smešnog

is when people do things that are irrational or immoral.

je kad ljudi rade stvari koje su iracionalne i nemoralne.

In the right hands, perversity is such a source of joy.

U pravim rukama, izopačenost je veliki izvor radosti.

Perversity can also be powerful.

Izopačenost može da bude i moćna.

Rory Sutherland wrote,

Rori Saderlend je napisao:

"Irrational people are much more powerful than rational people."

„Iracionalni ljudi imaju daleko veću moć od racionalnih ljudi.”

He gave two reasons why this is so.

Dao je dva razloga zašto je tako.

The first is, their threats are so much more convincing.

Prvi je, njihove pretnje su daleko uverljivije.

Suppose I'm in a confrontation with you

Zamislite da sam u sukobu s vama

and you threaten me

i pretite mi,

and you’re a rational, reasonable... person.

a vi ste racionalna, razumna... osoba.

So I know your threats ...

Te ja znam vaše pretnje...

Woman: Ehh.

Žena: Eh.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

PB: Well, I know your threats are going to be normal, proportional and reasonable.

PB: Znam da će vaše pretnje da budu normalne, proporcionalne i razumne.

But, if as somebody is hinting here, you’re a perverse agent,

Međutim, kao što je neko sugerisao ovde, ako ste izopačeni činilac,

I have no idea what you're capable of

pojma nemam za šta ste sposobni

and you're far more frightening to me.

i daleko vas se više plašim.

Second reason is, if you're wholly predictable,

Drugi razlog je: ako ste skroz predvidljivi,

people learn to hack you.

ljudi nauče da vas čitaju.

So again, if you're rational and I have to outsmart you,

Te, opet, ako ste racionalni i ja moram da vas nadmudrim,

figure out what you're going to do next,

provalim vaš sledeći potez,

I figure you’ll do the rational thing.

pretpostavljam da ćete postupiti razumno.

If you're perverse, you're harder to predict.

Ako ste izopačeni, teže vas je predvideti.

And so harder to hack.

I samim tim teže pročitati.

Edgar Allan Poe, describing perversity,

Edgar Alan Po, opisujući izopačenost,

described, talked about imps,

opisivao je i govorio o đavolcima,

little magical demons in our heads that cause us to do terrible things.

malenim čarobnim demonima u vašoj glavi zbog kojih radite užasne stvari.

But like I said, I'm a psychologist, I don't believe in imps.

Međutim, kao što sam rekao, ja sam psiholog, ne verujem u đavolke.

I think what we do has reasons, has motivations.

Smatram da za sve što radimo postoji razlog, postoje motivacije.

And I think for perverse actions there is a range of them.

I smatram da za izopačene postupke postoji čitav niz istih.

One of them was mentioned by Augustine.

Jedan od njih pominje Avgustin.

So later on, after describing the incident with the pears, he writes,

Kasnije, nakon opisa incidenta sa kruškama, piše:

"I would not have done it by myself.

„Ne bih to uradio sam.

My satisfaction did not lie in the pears, it lay in the crime itself,

Moje zadovoljstvo nije počivalo u kruškama, počivalo je u samom prestupu,

committed in league with a gang of sinners."

počinjenom u savezu sa bandom grešnika.”

The social force drove him.

Društvene sile su ga vukle.

And there are other things, too.

A postoje i druge stvari.

One force that really interests me

Jedna sila koja me zaista interesuje

goes under many names: self-governance, freedom,

ima razna imena: vladanje sobom, nezavisnost,

liberty, agency.

sloboda, intencionalnost.

Call it autonomy.

Nazovite je autonomijom.

Call it a desire to be free to do what you want,

Nazovite je žudnjom za slobodom da radite šta želite,

free of the constraints of other people

oslobođeni stega drugih ljudi

and free also of the constraints of rationality and morality.

i takođe oslobođeni stega racionalnosti i moralnosti.

And Jonah Berger gives a nice example of this.

A Džona Berger daje lep primer za ovo.

He talks about the Tide Pod challenge of a few years ago,

Govori o izazovu jedenja tajd podova od pre nekoliko godina,

where many teenagers,

gde su mnogi tinejdžeri,

instead of using these as detergent products,

umesto da ih koriste kao deterdžent,

bit into them and sometimes consumed them.

zagrizali i ponekad ih jeli.

Now, as you might imagine,

Kao što možete da zamislite,

Procter and Gamble, who own the products,

Prokter i Gembl, koji poseduju proizvod,

were incredibly unhappy about this

bili su izuzetno nezadovoljni ovim

and they set up an extremely expensive ad campaign

i pokrenuli su krajnje skupu reklamnu kampanju

designed to stop people from consuming these products.

osmišljenu da spreči ljude da konzumiraju ove proizvode.

And one of their campaigns involved a ... popular football player

A jedna njihova kampanja je uključivala popularnog fudbalera

known as Gronk.

poznatog kao Gronk.

So the ad would begin,

Reklama bi počela:

"Hey, Gronk, is eating the pods ever a good idea?"

„Hej, Gronk, da li jedenje podova uopšte može da bude dobra ideja?”

And Gronk responds, "No, no, no."

A Gronk odgovara: „Ne, ne, ne.”

Berger points out, when this ad came up,

Berger ističe da kada je ova reklama izašla

consumption of the pots shot up.

konzumacija podova je naglo skočila.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

Not down.

A ne opala.

"Nobody's going to tell me what to do.

„Niko mi neće govoriti šta da radim.

Who is this Gronk telling me what to do?

Ko je Gronk da mi kaže šta da radim?

I want to be an autonomous, free being."

Želim da budem nezavisno, slobodno biće.”

And psychologists call this reactance.

A psiholozi ovo nazivaju reaktancijom.

This means it's "an unpleasant feeling

Ona označava „neprijatno osećanje

that emerges when people experience a threat to

koje se javi kada ljudi doživljavaju pretnju po

or loss of their free behaviors."

ili gubitak njihovog slobodnog ponašanja.”

And there's a wealth of laboratory studies looking at reactance.

A postoji obilje laboratorijskog istraživanja koje se bavi reaktancijom.

So they test the idea

Pa testiraju ideju

that what you try to do is reestablish the threatened freedom.

da ono što pokušavate je ponovno uspostavljanje ugrožene slobode.

And so one of the studies, for instance, looks at binge-drinking ads

Jedno od istraživanja, primera radi, posmatra reklame o opijanju

and finds that when binge drinking ads are particularly heavy-handed,

i pronalazi da kada su reklame o opijanju naročito agresivne,

people often respond by drinking more. ...

ljudi često reaguju tako što više piju.

"I'm going to reestablish my freedom."

„Povratiću svoju slobodu.”

"I'm going to do what I want."

„Radiću šta mi je volja.”

Or take threats of reprisal.

Ili uzmite pretnju odmazde.

There's a lovely study by a team of political scientists

Postoji divno istraživanje ekipe političkih naučnika

which asked you, asked the subjects,

koje je pitalo vas, pitalo učesnike

to imagine that they’re an ambassador to a country

da zamisle da su ambasadori u državi

and they're deciding whether or not to have sanctions

i da odlučuju da li da uvedu sankcije

towards that country.

toj državi.

In one condition, the dictator says

U jednom slučaju, diktator kaže:

"If you do sanctions towards our country, that's OK, I won't do anything."

„Ako uvedete sankcije našoj državi, u redu je, neću ništa uraditi.”

In the second condition, the dictator says,

U drugom slučaju diktator kaže:

"If you do sanctions towards our country,

„Ako uvedete sankcije našoj državi,

I will unleash terrorist attacks against you."

izvršiću terorističke napade na vas.”

What's the stunning finding from this is that in the second condition,

Zapanjujući zaključak ovoga je da su u drugom slučaju,

not the first,

ne prvom,

they were more likely to do it.

bili skloniji uvođenju sankcija.

A lot of our perverse actions are in response to people

Većina naših izopačenosti su reakcije na ljude

telling us not to do what we want to do,

koji nam govore da ne radimo ono što želimo,

and it makes us want all the more to do that thing.

a zbog toga samo još više želimo to da uradimo.

I think there are two lessons from the study of perversity.

Mislim da dve lekcije proizlaze iz izučavanja izopačenosti.

One is to appreciate its role in everyday life.

Jedna je da cenimo njenu ulogu u svakodnevnom životu.

It's really worth knowing that there are people out there

Zaista je važno znati da tamo negde postoje ljudi

who really do want to watch the world burn.

koji zaista žele da gledaju svet kako gori.

And I think it's also worth knowing that each and every one of us,

Takođe smatram da je važno znati da baš svako od nas,

at some point in our life,

u nekom trenutku u našem životu,

wants to watch the world burn at least a little bit.

želi da gleda svet kako gori bar malčice.

(Laughter)

(Smeh)

I think it's worth knowing,

Smatram da je to važno znati,

at least for consequential decisions like choosing who to vote for,

bar zbog važnih odluka poput izbora za koga da glasate,

that people aren't just motivated by material self-interest

da ljudi nisu samo motivisani materijalnim ličnim interesom

or by an affiliation to social and political group.

ili pripadnosti nekoj društvenoj ili političkoj grupi.

Sometimes people want to be autonomous beings,

Ponekad ljudi žele da budu nezavisna bića,

they want to be free.

žele da budu slobodni.

And telling these people, "What you're doing is stupid,"

A govorenje tim ljudima: „To što radite je glupo”,

"what you're doing is irrational,"

„to što radite je iracionalno”,

"what you're doing is immoral,"

„to što radite je nemoralno”,

can have the paradoxical effect of motivating them to do

može da ima paradoksalan efekat i da ih motiviše da urade

exactly what you don't want them to do.

baš ono što ne želite da urade.

The second lesson of perversity has to do with our everyday lives.

Druga lekcija izopačenosti je u vezi sa našim svakodnevnim životima.

A lot of perversity is awful.

Većina izopačenosti je užasna.

I think the world would be better off without it.

Smatram da bi svetu bilo bolje bez njih.

But I think we've seen a little bit that perversity could be funny.

Smatram pak da smo malčice uvideli da izopačenost može da bude smešna.

It could be clever.

Može da bude pametna.

I think it can make the world a better place.

Mislim da zbog nje svet može da bude bolje mesto.

And so I guess I'd suggest

Stoga valjda predlažem

that a life with a little bit of perversity in it,

da je život sa malo izopačenosti u sebi,

a life where sometimes you put your finger into your friend's ice cream,

život u kome ponekad zabijete prst u prijateljev sladoled

is a life that's a lot more interesting.

život koji je daleko interesantniji.

Thank you.

Hvala vam.

(Applause)

(Aplauz)