The Surprising Psychology Behind Your Urge to Break the Rules | Paul Bloom | TED

翻译人员: Yip Yan Yeung 校对人员: Yanyan Hong

About 1,600 years ago,

大约 1600 年以前，

St. Augustine wrote "The Confessions,"

奥古斯丁（St. Augustine） 写下了《忏悔录》，

which was the story of his youthful descent into sin

讲述了他年轻时 自甘堕落、纵情声色，

and his later conversion to Christianity.

后来皈依基督教的故事。

And book two of “The Confessions” has a great beginning:

《忏悔录》第二卷的开头掷地有声：

"I propose now to set down my past wickedness

“我在此忏悔，是因为我想 放下我过往的罪行

and a carnal corruption of my soul."

和我灵魂的肉体堕落。”

So you expect sex.

你可能会以为他指的是性行为。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But to the disappointment of readers over the centuries,

但是令过去几百年里的读者失望的是

the sin that Augustine talks about... isn’t carnal at all.

奥古斯丁口中的“罪行” 根本就不是性欲，

It has to do with pears.

而是和梨子有关。

He and his friends break into an orchard

他和他的朋友闯入果园，

and they steal some pears.

偷了几个梨子。

And that was it.

没了。

They didn’t have anything against the person who owned the orchard.

他们和果园园主无冤无仇。

甚至都不饿，把梨子喂给了猪吃。

They weren’t hungry; they threw the pears to pigs.

What stunned Augustine and disturbed him

让奥古斯丁大为震撼、惴惴不安的是

was that he seemed to be motivated by a desire just to do wrong.

他似乎就是出于 为了干坏事而干坏事的欲望。

He writes, "If any part of one of those pears passed my lips,

他写道：“如果我尝了一小块梨子，

it was the sin that gave it flavor.

尝到的就是罪恶留下的味道。

I had no motivation for wickedness except wickedness itself.

我没有什么作恶的目的， 只是享受干坏事的过程。

I was foul and I loved it."

我太恶劣了，但是太爽了。”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Now I'm a psychologist

我是一名心理学家，

and I was interested in real-life stories of perverse actions,

对现实生活中的叛逆行为很感兴趣，

so I started The Perversity Project

所以我启动了“叛逆计划” （The Perversity Project），

where I invited people to send me stories about perverse things that they did.

邀请人们把他们的叛逆行为发给我。

I defined these acts as

我将这种行为定义为：

"when you choose to do something you know is wrong,

明知道是错的，你还是决定要做，

morally or otherwise,

可能是道义或者其他层面上的，

at least, in part, because it's wrong."

但这个行为至少 在某种程度上是不对的。

So one of the first stories I got was,

我收到的前几个故事是这样：

"Flirted with a woman's boyfriend knowing fully well he liked me.

“和一位女士的男朋友调情， 因为我十分有把握这个男的喜欢我。

I knew I could steal him if I wanted, but I didn't want to do that.

如果我想的话，我可以把他抢走， 但是我不想。

I just wanted her to feel uncomfortable

我只是想让她在我们三个 共处一室的时候坐立难安。”

whenever the three of us were in the same room."

(Laughter)

（笑声）

"Causing people pain is wrong, but that's exactly why I did it."

“给别人带来痛苦是不对的， 但这就是我这么干的理由。”

And in fact, this is the plot of the Dolly Parton song "Jolene."

这也是多莉·帕顿（Dolly Parton）的 歌曲《Jolene》里的情节。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Sometimes it's self destructive.

有时这是一种自我毁灭。

A young man wrote to me, "Ice skating on a pond,

一位年轻人写信给我，说道： “在湖面上溜冰，

dark unfrozen spot 30 yards out,

距离一个没冻住的黑洞 只有 30 码了，

instead of avoiding it, I skate towards it,

我没有躲开，而是径直滑了过去，

knowing but wondering, knowing but wondering...

明知却好奇， 明知却好奇，然后……

and splash!"

噗通！”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Now psychologists have long been interested

心理学家一直对这种

in these sort of violent, disruptive, perverse acts

暴力的、破坏性的、任性的行为

and the kinds of people who do them.

和这类肇事者很感兴趣。

An example people often give is the Joker from the “Batman” comics.

常见的例子有 《蝙蝠侠》漫画中的小丑。

In Christopher Nolan's film "The Dark Knight,"

在克里斯托弗·诺兰的电影 《黑暗骑士》中，

Alfred, Batman’s butler, describes the Joker by saying,

蝙蝠侠的管家阿尔弗雷德 是这么评价小丑的：

"Some men can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with.

“有些人就是无法被收买， 无法被恐吓，不讲道理，无法交流的。

Some men just want to watch the world burn."

有些人就是想见证世界毁灭。”

And psychologists have thought up a "need for chaos" scale

心理学家想出了一个 “混乱需求”评分表，

that gives you a bunch of statements

包括了一些陈述

and how much you agree with them

和你对其的赞同程度，

will tell you how much you want to watch the world burn.

借此可以测出你有多想 见证世界毁灭。

So do this quietly in your head.

悄悄在脑海里试一试。

"I need chaos around me.

“我的身边必须要有混乱。

It's too boring if nothing is going on."

如果天下太平，就太无聊了。”

"Sometimes I just like destroying beautiful things."

“有些时候我就是想 毁掉漂亮的东西。”

But not all the stories I got had that kind of nature.

但我收到的故事不全是 出于这样的心态。

Some were a little bit more benign.

有些故事还是比较善良的。

Here's one of my favorites.

说一个我最喜欢的故事。

"On one occasion in my early 20s, I was out with a friend.

“在我二十出头的某一天， 我和朋友出去玩。

He decided to get himself an ice cream

他打算吃个冰淇淋，

and before he had a chance to try it, I stuck my finger in it."

但是在他尝之前， 我把手指插了进去。”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

"I tried to play it off as a joke,

“我本来打算口头开个玩笑，

but really I had the sudden thought,

但我突发奇想：

’Man, it would be -- messed up

‘如果我把手指插进他的冰淇淋， 就会一塌糊涂了。’”

if I just jammed my finger in his ice cream.'"

Someone else wrote me, "When I was in a professional choir,

有人写了这个故事： “我在一个专业合唱团工作时，

at every concert,

每一场音乐会，

I felt the desire to sing a few notes very incorrectly on purpose.

我都有故意唱错几个音符的冲动。

To this day, I don't completely understand why."

时至今日，我依旧 无法完全理解这是为什么。”

Someone else wrote me, and this is kind of the sweetest, saddest

有人写了这么一个 最可爱的、最悲伤的

little example of modest perversity:

一种小小叛逆的例子：

“Sometimes I walk on the grass instead of the path

“有时我就是要走在草地上， 不走在路上，

just because I know it's wrong."

就是因为我知道这是不对的。”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Now a lot of perversity makes the world worse.

很多叛逆行为会让世界更糟糕。

I wouldn't want an Uber driver

我可不想我的优步司机

who scores high on a "need for chaos" scale.

在“混乱需求”评分表上得了个高分。

And I don't want a friend or a colleague either.

我也不想我的朋友或者同事得高分。

But sometimes, I'll suggest to you,

但有些时候，我可以告诉你，

perversity can be clever, creative, beautiful.

叛逆可以是聪明的、 有创意的、美丽的。

And there are some examples from art.

可以看看艺术界的例子。

There was an illustrious art exhibition in New York City in 1917, and they said,

1917 年纽约举办了一场 优秀艺术作品展，举办方说：

"You could send in anything you want, we'll accept everything."

“你可以发来任何你想提交的作品， 我们会接受所有作品。”

So Marcel Duchamp sent in a urinal, described [as] a fountain,

马塞尔·杜尚（Marcel Duchamp） 提交了一座小便池，起名为《泉》，

and they rejected it.

然后遭到了拒绝。

They said, "No, no, we just accept artwork."

举办方说：“不行，不行， 我们只接受艺术品。”

But Duchamp insisted it was artwork

但杜尚坚称它就是一件艺术品，

and the resulting controversy turned out to be one of the pivotal moments

由此引发的争议成为了 现代艺术史上最关键的时刻。

in the history of modern art.

Or take Banksy.

也可以举班克西（Banksy）的例子。

A few years ago,

几年以前，

Banksy sold a painting “Girl with Balloon” at Sotheby’s, at auction,

班克西在苏富比拍卖行售出了 一幅绘画《女孩与气球》，

and he set up the frame so that the moment the painting was sold,

他对画框动了手脚， 在作品成交的瞬间，

the moment the gavel went "boom,"

在落槌瞬间，

a machine in the frame shredded the painting halfway through,

画框内的一台机器 切碎了半幅画，

horrifying the audience.

观众惊恐万分。

But... getting on the front pages of newspapers all over the world.

但它登上了世界各地的新闻头条。

Later on, describing it, Banksy quotes a Russian anarchist who says,

后来，谈及此事时，班克西引用了 一名俄罗斯无政府主义者的话：

"The urge to destroy is also a creative urge."

“破坏的欲望也是一种创造欲。”

Or take comedy.

举个喜剧的例子。

Perversity is part and parcel of comedy.

叛逆行为是喜剧的一部分， 也是它的内核。

So much of what's funny

搞笑的就是

is when people do things that are irrational or immoral.

人们做了一些不符合逻辑 或者不道德的事。

In the right hands, perversity is such a source of joy.

只要运用得当，叛逆行为 就是快乐源泉。

Perversity can also be powerful.

叛逆行为也可以很强大。

Rory Sutherland wrote,

罗里·萨瑟兰 （Rory Sutherland）写道：

"Irrational people are much more powerful than rational people."

“不理智的人要比理智的人强大得多。”

He gave two reasons why this is so.

他给了两个原因。

The first is, their threats are so much more convincing.

第一，不理智的人 造成的威胁更实实在在。

Suppose I'm in a confrontation with you

假如我和你起了冲突，

and you threaten me

你恐吓了我，

and you’re a rational, reasonable... person.

但你是个理智的、讲道理的人。

So I know your threats ...

那我就知道你的威胁……

Woman: Ehh.

女性观众：哈哈哈哈。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

PB: Well, I know your threats are going to be normal, proportional and reasonable.

保罗·布鲁姆（Paul Bloom）：

我就知道你的威胁 会很正常、公道、合理。

But, if as somebody is hinting here, you’re a perverse agent,

但如果有人暗示你是个 不按常理出牌的人，

I have no idea what you're capable of

我不知道你敢做出什么事，

and you're far more frightening to me.

那你在我眼中就更可怕了。

Second reason is, if you're wholly predictable,

第二个原因是， 如果你的行为完全是可预见的，

people learn to hack you.

那别人就会见招拆招。

So again, if you're rational and I have to outsmart you,

同样地，如果你是个理智的人， 我得智取你，

figure out what you're going to do next,

预判你接下来会做些什么，

I figure you’ll do the rational thing.

我会假设你的行为会是理智的。

If you're perverse, you're harder to predict.

但如果你是个乱来的人， 就不太容易预判你的行为了，

And so harder to hack.

也不太容易破解。

Edgar Allan Poe, describing perversity,

埃德加·爱伦·坡（Edgar Allan Poe） 将叛逆行为比喻成小恶魔，

described, talked about imps,

little magical demons in our heads that cause us to do terrible things.

在我们脑海里让我们做坏事的小恶魔。

But like I said, I'm a psychologist, I don't believe in imps.

但如我所说，我是一名心理学家， 我不相信小恶魔。

I think what we do has reasons, has motivations.

我相信这是有原因的、有动机的。

And I think for perverse actions there is a range of them.

我认为叛逆行为背后 有多种原因和动机。

One of them was mentioned by Augustine.

奥古斯丁已经提到了其中一个。

So later on, after describing the incident with the pears, he writes,

后来，他在讲完偷梨事件后写道：

"I would not have done it by myself.

“我自己一个人是不会这么做的。

My satisfaction did not lie in the pears, it lay in the crime itself,

我的满足感不是来自梨子， 而是来自干坏事本身，

committed in league with a gang of sinners."

和一帮罪人狼狈为奸。”

The social force drove him.

社会影响力鼓动着他，

And there are other things, too.

还有别的因素。

One force that really interests me

有一个我很感兴趣的因素，

goes under many names: self-governance, freedom,

它有好几个名字： 自我管理、内在自由、

liberty, agency.

外在自由、自主控制权。

Call it autonomy.

就叫它“自主权”吧。

Call it a desire to be free to do what you want,

可以把它看成对为所欲为的渴望，

free of the constraints of other people

完全不受他人的限制，

and free also of the constraints of rationality and morality.

完全不受理智和道德的限制。

And Jonah Berger gives a nice example of this.

乔纳·伯杰（Jonah Berger） 给出了一个不错的例子。

He talks about the Tide Pod challenge of a few years ago,

他谈到了多年前的 “汰渍洗衣球挑战”，

where many teenagers,

很多青少年，

instead of using these as detergent products,

没有把洗衣球当作洗涤剂使用，

bit into them and sometimes consumed them.

而是把它咬开，可能还会吃进去。

Now, as you might imagine,

你可以想象，

Procter and Gamble, who own the products,

该产品所有者宝洁公司

were incredibly unhappy about this

对此极为不悦，

and they set up an extremely expensive ad campaign

斥巨资举办了广告宣传活动，

designed to stop people from consuming these products.

阻止人们食用这类产品。

And one of their campaigns involved a ... popular football player

其中一场活动请了一位 当红橄榄球运动员

known as Gronk.

Gronk（罗布·格隆考斯基， Rob Gronkowski）。

So the ad would begin,

广告的开头是这样的：

"Hey, Gronk, is eating the pods ever a good idea?"

“嗨，Gronk， 吃洗衣球是个好主意吗？”

And Gronk responds, "No, no, no."

然后 Gronk 回答：“不，不，不。”

Berger points out, when this ad came up,

伯杰指出，这个广告一经播放，

consumption of the pots shot up.

吃洗衣球的现象立即飙升。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Not down.

不是骤降。

"Nobody's going to tell me what to do.

“没人可以教我做事。

Who is this Gronk telling me what to do?

Gronk 是哪位啊？还教我做事。

I want to be an autonomous, free being."

我要当一个独立自主、 无拘无束的人。”

And psychologists call this reactance.

心理学家称之为 “逆反心理”（reactance）。

This means it's "an unpleasant feeling

指的是“一种不爽的感觉，

that emerges when people experience a threat to

出现于人们的自由行为面临威胁，

or loss of their free behaviors."

或丧失自由行动权之时”。

And there's a wealth of laboratory studies looking at reactance.

针对逆反心理已经进行了 大量实验室研究。

So they test the idea

他们测试了这样一个想法：

that what you try to do is reestablish the threatened freedom.

你想做的就是重建 受到威胁的自由。

And so one of the studies, for instance, looks at binge-drinking ads

比如，有一个研究分析了酗酒广告，

and finds that when binge drinking ads are particularly heavy-handed,

发现酗酒广告特别冷冰冰，

people often respond by drinking more. ...

人们常见的反应就是喝得更狠……

"I'm going to reestablish my freedom."

“我要夺回我的自由。”

"I'm going to do what I want."

“我偏要为所欲为。”

Or take threats of reprisal.

还有报复心理作祟。

There's a lovely study by a team of political scientists

一群政治科学家做了 这么一个有趣的研究，

which asked you, asked the subjects,

他们会要求你，要求受试者，

to imagine that they’re an ambassador to a country

想象他们是驻某个国家的大使，

and they're deciding whether or not to have sanctions

让他们决定要不要制裁这个国家。

towards that country.

In one condition, the dictator says

一种情况是统治者说：

"If you do sanctions towards our country, that's OK, I won't do anything."

“如果你要制裁我国， 没关系，我不会干预。”

In the second condition, the dictator says,

还有一种情况是统治者说：

"If you do sanctions towards our country,

“如果你要制裁我国，

I will unleash terrorist attacks against you."

我就会派出恐怖分子袭击你。”

What's the stunning finding from this is that in the second condition,

惊人的是听到第二个回应之后，

not the first,

不是第一个，

they were more likely to do it.

受试者更有可能会采取措施。

A lot of our perverse actions are in response to people

有很多叛逆行为都是为了回应有人

telling us not to do what we want to do,

让我们不要做自己想做的事，

and it makes us want all the more to do that thing.

这会让我们更想做这事。

I think there are two lessons from the study of perversity.

我认为对叛逆行为的研究 让我学到了两点。

One is to appreciate its role in everyday life.

第一，是正视它在 日常生活中扮演的角色。

It's really worth knowing that there are people out there

你得知道就是有人

who really do want to watch the world burn.

很想看到世界毁灭。

And I think it's also worth knowing that each and every one of us,

我们也得知道，我们每个人，

at some point in our life,

在人生的某个节点，

wants to watch the world burn at least a little bit.

都至少会有那么一丝 想看到世界毁灭的念头。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

I think it's worth knowing,

我觉得我们该知道，

at least for consequential decisions like choosing who to vote for,

至少在把票投给谁 这样的重大决定上，

that people aren't just motivated by material self-interest

人们不止是由物质上的 个人利益驱动的，

or by an affiliation to social and political group.

或是因为与某个社会 或政治团体有瓜葛。

Sometimes people want to be autonomous beings,

有时人们想当个自主的人，

they want to be free.

当个自由的人。

And telling these people, "What you're doing is stupid,"

和这些人说： “你的所作所为是愚蠢的”、

"what you're doing is irrational,"

“你的所作所为是不理智的”、

"what you're doing is immoral,"

“你的所作所为是不道德的”，

can have the paradoxical effect of motivating them to do

可能会产生相反的效果， 激发他们去做

exactly what you don't want them to do.

你不想让他们做的事。

The second lesson of perversity has to do with our everyday lives.

从叛逆行为中学到的第二点 和我们的日常生活有关。

A lot of perversity is awful.

有很多叛逆行为很糟糕。

I think the world would be better off without it.

我觉得要是世界上没有 这些叛逆行为肯定要好得多。

But I think we've seen a little bit that perversity could be funny.

但我认为有一点点 叛逆行为会很好玩。

It could be clever.

可以是聪明的小把戏。

I think it can make the world a better place.

我认为这些叛逆行为 可以让世界更美好。

And so I guess I'd suggest

所以我想说，

that a life with a little bit of perversity in it,

带点小叛逆的生活，

a life where sometimes you put your finger into your friend's ice cream,

有时把手指插进朋友的 冰淇淋里的生活，

is a life that's a lot more interesting.

会有趣得多。

Thank you.

谢谢。

(Applause)

（掌声）