In praise of conflict | Jonathan Marks

50,689 views ・ 2017-05-08

TED


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譯者: Ming Lee 審譯者: Wilde Luo
00:12
Twenty years ago,
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20 年前,
00:13
when I was a barrister and human rights lawyer
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我擔任訟務律師和人權律師時,
00:16
in full-time legal practice in London,
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在倫敦從事全職的法律實務,
00:19
and the highest court in the land
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英國最高法院依然在這裡開庭;
00:22
still convened, some would say by an accident of history,
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有人說這是因為歷史上的一個意外;
00:26
in this building here,
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就在這一棟建築裡,
00:28
I met a young man who had just quit his job
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我遇見了一個男生,
他剛從英國外交部辭去工作。
00:31
in the British Foreign Office.
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00:33
When I asked him, "Why did you leave,"
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我問他:「為什麼你要離開?」
00:36
he told me this story.
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他告訴我下面的故事。
00:38
He had gone to his boss one morning and said,
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有一天早上,他問他的上司說:
00:41
"Let's do something about human rights abuses in China."
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「我們可以為中國 人權問題做點事嗎?」
00:46
And his boss had replied,
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他的上司回答他:
00:48
"We can't do anything about human rights abuses in China
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「我們無法為中國 人權問題做任何事,
00:50
because we have trade relations with China."
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因為我們跟中國 有貿易的往來關係。」
00:54
So my friend went away with his tail between his legs,
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所以我的朋友悻悻地離開,
00:57
and six months later, he returned again to his boss,
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六個月以後他再去見他的上司,
01:01
and he said this time,
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這次他這麼說:
01:02
"Let's do something about human rights in Burma,"
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「讓我們為緬甸 (Burma) 人權問題做點事好嗎?」
01:06
as it was then called.
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那時還是這麼稱呼這個國家。 (現稱 Myanmar)
01:08
His boss once again paused
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他的上司再次停下來,然後說:
01:10
and said, "Oh, but we can't do anything about human rights in Burma
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「哦,可是我們沒辦法 為緬甸人權問題做任何事啊,
01:14
because we don't have any trade relations with Burma."
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因為我們跟緬甸沒有 半點貿易關係。」
01:18
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
01:19
This was the moment he knew he had to leave.
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當下那一刻, 他了解他必須辭去工作了。
01:21
It wasn't just the hypocrisy that got to him.
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那不只是那種 假仁假義的感覺襲上他,
01:24
It was the unwillingness of his government
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而是他對於這個政府, 不願去與其他政府發生「衝突」,
01:28
to engage in conflict with other governments,
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01:30
in tense discussions,
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不願意去進行密切的商談, 才使他死了心。
01:32
all the while, innocent people were being harmed.
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因為與此同時, 無辜的人正在受到傷害。
01:37
We are constantly told
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我們經常被告知:
01:39
that conflict is bad
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「與人發生衝突是不好的,
01:42
that compromise is good;
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妥協才是好的;」
01:45
that conflict is bad
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「衝突是壞的,
01:47
but consensus is good;
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達成共識是好的;」
01:49
that conflict is bad
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「衝突是不對的,
01:52
and collaboration is good.
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合作才是好的。」
01:55
But in my view,
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但是以我的觀點來看,
01:57
that's far too simple a vision of the world.
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對與這個世界而言, 這些話顯得太單純了。
01:59
We cannot know
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我們無從知道,
02:01
whether conflict is bad
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衝突是否不好,
02:03
unless we know who is fighting,
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除非我們了解是誰在奮鬥,
02:06
why they are fighting
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為什麼他們要抗爭,
02:08
and how they are fighting.
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和他們如何抗戰。
02:10
And compromises can be thoroughly rotten
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妥協可能會徹底腐敗,
02:13
if they harm people who are not at the table,
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假如它們傷害到 沒有在談判桌上的人,
02:17
people who are vulnerable, disempowered,
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那些很脆弱和被剝奪權利的人;
02:19
people whom we have an obligation to protect.
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那些我們有義務去保護的人。
02:24
Now, you might be somewhat skeptical of a lawyer
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現在你可能會對眼前 這位律師感到懷疑:
02:27
arguing about the benefits of conflict
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他在這裡談論衝突的好處,
02:30
and creating problems for compromise,
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向妥協發難,
02:33
but I did also qualify as a mediator,
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但是我的資格的確 足夠作為一個和事佬,
02:35
and these days, I spend my time giving talks about ethics for free.
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最近我花了很多時間免費演講, 談論自由和倫理道德的關係。
02:38
So as my bank manager likes to remind me, I'm downwardly mobile.
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所以我的銀行經理提醒我, 說我是在向下沉淪。
(笑聲)
02:44
But if you accept my argument,
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但是如果你接受我的論點,
02:47
it should change not just the way we lead our personal lives,
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它不但可以改變 我們過生活的方式──
02:50
which I wish to put to one side for the moment,
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這個話題我暫時先把它放到一旁;
02:53
but it will change the way we think about major problems
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也可以改變我們對於公衛和環境等 主要問題的思考方式。
02:57
of public health and the environment.
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03:01
Let me explain.
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讓我解釋一下。
03:04
Every middle schooler in the United States,
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美國的每一位國中生,
03:06
my 12-year-old daughter included,
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包括我 12 歲的女兒在內,
03:09
learns that there are three branches of government,
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都知道政府有三個分支,
03:13
the legislative, the executive and the judicial branch.
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它們分別是立法部門、 行政部門和司法單位。
03:17
James Madison wrote,
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詹姆斯.麥迪遜在他的書中寫到:
03:19
"If there is any principle more sacred in our Constitution,
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「在我們的憲法中, 應該說是在任何自由的憲法中,
03:24
and indeed in any free constitution,
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如果有什麼原則, 比起其他原則更為神聖的話;
03:26
than any other,
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03:28
it is that which separates
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就是那種將立法、行政、司法權, 個別分開獨立出來的原則。」
03:30
the legislative, the executive and the judicial powers."
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03:35
Now, the framers were not just concerned
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憲法制訂者不只是關注 權力的集中和實行而已。
03:39
about the concentration and exercise of power.
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03:43
They also understood the perils of influence.
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他們也理解「影響力」的危險。
03:48
Judges cannot determine the constitutionality of laws
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法官不可以決定法律本身是否合憲,
03:53
if they participate in making those laws,
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假使法官本身參與制訂法律的話;
03:57
nor can they hold the other branches of government accountable
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他們也無法對政府 其他分支機構進行追究,
04:01
if they collaborate with them
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如果他們之間有合作關係,
04:03
or enter into close relationships with them.
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或是與他們建立密切的關係。
04:07
The Constitution is, as one famous scholar put it,
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「憲法」,正如一位 著名學者所說的,
04:11
"an invitation to struggle."
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「是一封鬥爭的邀請函。」
04:14
And we the people are served
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而老百姓是被影響的對象,
04:16
when those branches do, indeed, struggle with each other.
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假如那些政府機構 彼此之間互相對抗的話。
04:23
Now, we recognize the importance of struggle
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我們理解鬥爭的重要性,
04:26
not just in the public sector
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不僅是在我們政府分支的 公眾部門而已,
04:29
between our branches of government.
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04:32
We also know it too in the private sector,
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我們也知道在私人公司的部門之間,
04:35
in relationships among corporations.
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也存在同樣問題。
04:39
Let's imagine that two American airlines get together and agree
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讓我們想像一下,
如果兩家美國航空公司集合在一起,
彼此同意不要把經濟艙的機票 價格降到每張 250 美元以下,
04:44
that they will not drop the price
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04:46
of their economy class airfares below 250 dollars a ticket.
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04:51
That is collaboration, some would say collusion,
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那就是「合作」, 有人把它稱之為「共謀」,
04:55
not competition,
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而不是競爭,
04:56
and we the people are harmed
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那麼遭殃的是大家,
04:59
because we pay more for our tickets.
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因為我們要付出 更高的價格來買機票。
05:02
Imagine similarly two airlines were to say,
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假想一下,同樣的 兩家航空公司如果這樣說:
05:04
"Look, Airline A, we'll take the route from LA to Chicago,"
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「航空公司甲,我們想飛 洛杉磯到芝加哥的航線。」
05:09
and Airline B says, "We'll take the route from Chicago to DC,
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然後航空公司乙說:
「我們想飛芝加哥 到華盛頓的這條航線。
05:13
and we won't compete."
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那麼我們就不用互相競爭了。」
05:14
Once again, that's collaboration or collusion instead of competition,
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這同樣也是一種合作或共謀, 而不是競爭,
05:19
and we the people are harmed.
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受到傷害的還是大家。
05:23
So we understand the importance of struggle
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就政府公眾部門之間的關係而論, 我們知道抗爭的重要性。
05:29
when it comes to relationships between branches of government,
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05:34
the public sector.
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05:36
We also understand the importance of conflict
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就私人公司各單位之間的關係而論, 我們也知道衝突的重要性。
05:40
when it comes to relationships among corporations,
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05:44
the private sector.
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05:46
But where we have forgotten it
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但是我們忽略的是,
05:48
is in the relationships between the public and the private.
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公家單位與私營企業之間的關係。
05:53
And governments all over the world are collaborating with industry
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全世界的政府都在與工業界合作,
05:56
to solve problems of public health and the environment,
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解決公共衛生和環境的問題,
06:00
often collaborating with the very corporations
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通常合作的對象是那些製造出 更多問題,或是使問題惡化的公司。
06:03
that are creating or exacerbating the problems they are trying to solve.
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06:10
We are told that these relationships
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我們被告知這些關係 是一個雙贏的關係。
06:14
are a win-win.
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06:17
But what if someone is losing out?
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但是如果一方有利益損失怎麼辦呢?
06:22
Let me give you some examples.
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讓我給你一些案例。
06:25
A United Nations agency decided to address a serious problem:
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聯合國的一個機構, 決定處理一個嚴峻的問題:
06:29
poor sanitation in schools in rural India.
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印度鄉下學校極差的衛生狀況。
06:34
They did so not just in collaboration with national and local governments
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他們不僅與國家和當地政府合作,
06:38
but also with a television company
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也和一家電視公司合作,
06:40
and with a major multinational soda company.
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還有一家跨國汽水公司合作,
06:45
In exchange for less than one million dollars,
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以交換低於 100 萬美元的經費,
06:48
that corporation received the benefits of a months-long promotional campaign
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讓那家公司獲得一個月的促銷活動,
06:53
including a 12-hour telethon
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包含一個持續 12 個小時的 電視募款活動,
06:55
all using the company's logo and color scheme.
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全部使用該公司的商標和配色設計。
06:59
This was an arrangement
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從該公司的角度來看,
07:01
which was totally understandable
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這種安排是完全可以理解的。
07:04
from the corporation's point of view.
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07:06
It enhances the reputation of the company
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它強化了公司的名譽,
07:09
and it creates brand loyalty for its products.
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也創造了他們產品的品牌忠誠度。
07:13
But in my view,
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但是從我的眼光來看,
07:14
this is profoundly problematic for the intergovernmental agency,
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這對於此跨政府的機構 會造成深遠的問題,
07:18
an agency that has a mission to promote sustainable living.
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這個機構的使命是提倡永續生活。
07:23
By increasing consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages
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透過增加含糖飲料的銷售量,
07:26
made from scarce local water supplies and drunk out of plastic bottles
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消耗當地已經匱乏的水資源, 來製造塑膠瓶裝飲料,
07:31
in a country that is already grappling with obesity,
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在一個已經陷入肥胖症困境的國家,
07:34
this is neither sustainable from a public health
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站在公共衛生的立場來看,
這既不合乎永續性, 也不合乎環保的觀點。
07:37
nor an environmental point of view.
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07:40
And in order to solve one public health problem,
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為了解決一個公共衛生問題,
07:43
the agency is sowing the seeds
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這個機構埋下另一個壞的種子。
07:46
of another.
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07:49
This is just one example of dozens I discovered
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這只是我在書中搜尋 政府與工業關係的時候,
07:53
in researching a book on the relationships between government and industry.
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很多例子的其中一個。
07:58
I could also have told you about the initiatives in parks
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我還可以告訴你另外一個提案,
08:02
in London and throughout Britain,
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要在倫敦和整個英國的 公園倡導運動,
08:04
involving the same company, promoting exercise,
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也牽涉到同一家公司,
08:07
or indeed of the British government creating voluntary pledges
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或實際上,是由英國政府出面,
主動向工業界承諾並建立合作關係,
08:12
in partnership with industry
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08:14
instead of regulating industry.
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而不是向工業界提出規範。
08:17
These collaborations or partnerships have become the paradigm in public health,
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這些合作或合夥關係, 已經成為公共健康的範例,
08:22
and once again, they make sense from the point of view of industry.
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而再一次,
以工業界的角度來看, 他們讓此種作法合理化,
08:26
It allows them to frame public health problems and their solutions
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容許他們框架 公共衛生問題及解決方法,
08:30
in ways that are least threatening to,
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採用對他們最少威脅的手法,
08:32
most consonant with their commercial interests.
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而且大部分都與他們的 商業利益一致。
08:35
So obesity becomes a problem
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所以肥胖的困擾,
08:38
of individual decision-making,
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成為個人抉擇的問題,
08:42
of personal behavior,
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或個人的行為問題,
08:44
personal responsibility and lack of physical activity.
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是個人的責任還有缺乏運動的問題。
08:47
It is not a problem,
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照這樣的框架來看,這根本不是
08:49
when framed this way,
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08:51
of a multinational food system involving major corporations.
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牽涉大企業的跨國食品系統問題。
08:55
And again, I don't blame industry.
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再說一次,我並不怪罪工業界。
08:56
Industry naturally engages in strategies of influence
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工業界很自然地 會運用策略發揮影響力,
09:00
to promote its commercial interests.
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為了謀求商業利益而進行促銷活動。
09:03
But governments have a responsibility
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但是政府有責任,
09:06
to develop counterstrategies
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研究對策,
09:08
to protect us
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來保護我們,
09:10
and the common good.
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和我們的公共利益。
09:13
The mistake that governments are making
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(字幕:公共利益)
政府其實是在製造錯誤,
09:18
when they collaborate in this way
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當他們用這種方式 與工業界協調的時候,
09:20
with industry
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錯在於:政府把 兩件事情混淆在一起。
09:22
is that they conflate
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09:24
the common good
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那就是「共同點」與「公共利益。」
09:26
with common ground.
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09:28
When you collaborate with industry,
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當你跟工業界合作的時候,
09:31
you necessarily put off the table
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你必須先把那些促進公共利益的事情,
09:34
things that might promote the common good to which industry will not agree.
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先從談判桌上移走,
因為那些事情工業界可能不會接受。
他們不會同意加強對他們的約束,
09:38
Industry will not agree to increased regulation
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09:40
unless it believes this will stave off even more regulation
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除非他們相信這種合作, 可以讓他們避開更多的管制,
09:45
or perhaps knock some competitors out of the market.
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或讓他們的競爭對手 被踢出市場之外。
09:49
Nor can companies agree to do certain things,
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公司也不見得願意去做某一些事,
09:52
for example raise the prices of their unhealthy products,
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例如提高他們不健康產品的售價,
09:55
because that would violate competition law,
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因為那樣會違反「公平交易法」,
09:57
as we've established.
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那是我們已經建立完成的。
10:00
So our governments should not confound
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所以我們的政府,
不應該將公共利益 和共同點混淆在一起,
10:03
the common good and common ground,
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特別是當共同點代表的是 與工業界達成的協議的時候。
10:06
especially when common ground means reaching agreement with industry.
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10:12
I want to give you another example,
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我想再給你一個例子,
我們已經講過備受矚目的合作計畫,
10:14
moving from high-profile collaboration
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10:16
to something that is below ground
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再來是有關檯面下合作的案例;
10:18
both literally and figuratively:
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從字面上或用比喻的方式來看。
10:22
the hydraulic fracturing of natural gas.
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那就是水力壓裂法開採天然氣。
10:25
Imagine that you purchase a plot of land
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假想一下你購買了一塊土地,
10:28
not knowing the mineral rights have been sold.
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但是不知道採礦權已經被賣掉了,
10:31
This is before the fracking boom.
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這是水力壓裂法榮景之前發生的事。
10:34
You build your dream home on that plot,
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你在你的產業上 蓋了一棟夢想的房子,
10:37
and shortly afterwards,
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蓋好之後沒多久,
10:38
you discover that a gas company is building a well pad on your land.
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你發現天然氣公司 在你的土地上興建鑽井平台,
10:44
That was the plight of the Hallowich family.
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這其實正是哈洛維奇家族 以前碰到的困境。
10:49
Within a very short period of time,
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在非常短的一段時間內,
10:51
they began to complain of headaches,
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他們開始抱怨頭痛、
喉嚨痛、眼睛癢,
10:55
of sore throats, of itchy eyes,
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10:58
in addition to the interference of the noise, vibration
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除此之外還有噪音震動的干擾,
11:01
and the bright lights from the flaring of natural gas.
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和天然氣燃燒時發出的亮光等。
11:04
They were very vocal in their criticisms,
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他們激烈地批評這些事,
11:07
and then they fell silent.
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然後他們突然噤聲了。
11:10
And thanks to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, where this image appeared,
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多虧匹茲堡郵報, 才有上面的那張圖像,
11:13
and one other newspaper, we discovered why they fell silent.
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加上另一家報社, 我們才瞭解他們不再發聲的原因,
11:16
The newspapers went to the court and said, "What happened to the Hallowiches?"
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這家報社跑到法院去問: 「哈洛維奇家族到底如何了?」
結果發現哈洛維奇家族,
11:20
And it turned out the Hallowiches had made a secret settlement
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已經私下與天然氣業者 達成秘密協議,
11:23
with the gas operators, and it was a take-it-or-leave-it settlement.
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而且那是一種 「不要就拉倒」的協議。
11:27
The gas company said,
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天然氣公司說,
11:28
you can have a six-figure sum
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你可以獲得六位數字的補償金額,
11:31
to move elsewhere and start your lives again,
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搬到其他地方去重新展開你的生活,
11:33
but in return
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但代價是:你必須答應我們,
11:34
you must promise not to speak of your experience with our company,
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不可以將我們公司的事說出去,
11:38
not to speak of your experience with fracking,
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也不可以談論 你對於水力壓裂法的體驗,
11:41
not to speak about the health consequences
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不可以談到你的健康受損情況,
11:45
that might have been revealed by a medical examination.
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這個或許早已在健康檢查中就發現了。
11:49
Now, I do not blame the Hallowiches for accepting
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其實我不怪哈洛維奇接受那種 「不要就拉倒」的協議,
11:52
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement
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11:55
and starting their lives elsewhere.
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並且搬到其他地方重新展開生活。
11:57
And one can understand
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因為大家都能夠理解,
11:58
why the company would wish to silence a squeaky wheel.
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為什麼那家公司希望禁止 尋求賠償的抱怨者發出聲音。
12:01
What I want to point the finger at is the legal and regulatory system,
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我想指責的對象是法律和管理系統,
12:05
a system in which there are networks of agreements
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一個隱藏了合作協議 在內的網路系統,
12:07
just like this one
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就像這件事一樣,
12:09
which serve to silence people and seal off data points
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用來封住人們的嘴巴, 把資料點封鎖住,
12:14
from public health experts and epidemiologists,
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將公共健康專家 和流行病學家排除在外。
12:17
a system in which regulators
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作為一個系統內的管理者,
12:18
will even refrain from issuing a violation notice
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竟敢在污染事件中, 逃避開出違規事件通知單,
12:21
in the event of pollution
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12:23
if the landowner and the gas company
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只要土地所有人和天然氣業者之間, 私下達成協議就好。
12:25
agree to settle.
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從公共衛生的角度來看, 這種系統不只是壞的,
12:27
This is a system which isn't just bad from a public health point of view;
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12:30
it exposes hazards to local families
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它更讓當地居民暴露在風險之中,
12:34
who remain in the dark.
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任令他們躲在黑暗之處。
12:39
Now, I have given you two examples not because they are isolated examples.
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現在我已經提出了兩個例子,
不是因爲他們是被孤立的個案。
12:43
They are examples of a systemic problem.
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而是因為它們是 系統性問題的一個範例。
我可以分享一些反例,
12:46
I could share some counterexamples,
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12:48
the case for example of the public official
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例如某位公家官員的案件,
12:51
who sues the pharmaceutical company
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他以隱瞞真相的理由, 控告製藥公司,
12:54
for concealing the fact
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12:56
that its antidepressant increases suicidal thoughts in adolescents.
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因為他們的抗憂鬱藥劑,
會增加青少年自殺的念頭。
13:02
I can tell you about the regulator who went after the food company
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我可以告訴你們某位管理官員,
追逐在食品服務公司後面,
13:06
for exaggerating the purported health benefits of its yogurt.
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對其酸奶製品,誇大聲稱 對健康有益所做的事。
13:10
And I can tell you about the legislator
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我也可以告訴你們某位立法人員,
13:13
who despite heavy lobbying directed at both sides of the aisle
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不理會那些站在 走廊兩旁的眾多說客,
13:18
pushes for environmental protections.
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他還是不為所動地在推動環保。
13:22
These are isolated examples,
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這些都是獨立的個案,
13:24
but they are beacons of light in the darkness,
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但是他們都是黑夜裡燈塔中的光明,
13:28
and they can show us the way.
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而他們可以為我們指引道路。
13:33
I began by suggesting that sometimes we need to engage in conflict.
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我演講開始時提出 我們有時需要參與鬥爭,
13:39
Governments should tussle with,
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政府應該與公司爭執、
13:42
struggle with, at times engage in direct conflict with corporations.
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鬥爭、時時直接與公司衝突,
13:49
This is not because governments are inherently good
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這不是因為政府本質上是好的,
13:54
and corporations are inherently evil.
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而公司本質上是邪惡的。
13:56
Each is capable of good or ill.
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彼此都可以作好事或壞事。
14:01
But corporations understandably act to promote their commercial interests,
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但公司為了創造利潤, 進行促銷是可理解的行為,
14:06
and they do so either sometimes undermining or promoting the common good.
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但他們那樣做,可能削弱、 或提升公共利益。
14:12
But it is the responsibility of governments
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但是那絕對是政府的責任 來保護和提升公共利益。
14:16
to protect and promote the common good.
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14:20
And we should insist
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我們應該堅持要他們為此而奮鬥。
14:22
that they fight to do so.
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14:26
This is because governments
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這是因為「政府」 是公共健康的守護者。
14:29
are the guardians
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14:31
of public health;
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14:33
governments are the guardians
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政府是環境的守護者;
14:36
of the environment;
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14:38
and it is governments
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而且政府也是必不可缺的一個要素,
14:40
that are guardians
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14:41
of these essential parts of our common good.
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守護我們的公共利益。
14:47
Thank you.
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謝謝你們。
14:48
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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