In praise of conflict | Jonathan Marks

50,689 views ・ 2017-05-08

TED


Please double-click on the English subtitles below to play the video.

00:12
Twenty years ago,
0
12460
1456
00:13
when I was a barrister and human rights lawyer
1
13940
2936
00:16
in full-time legal practice in London,
2
16900
2975
00:19
and the highest court in the land
3
19900
2176
00:22
still convened, some would say by an accident of history,
4
22100
4416
00:26
in this building here,
5
26540
1320
00:28
I met a young man who had just quit his job
6
28660
3056
00:31
in the British Foreign Office.
7
31740
1429
00:33
When I asked him, "Why did you leave,"
8
33740
2296
00:36
he told me this story.
9
36060
1200
00:38
He had gone to his boss one morning and said,
10
38340
2696
00:41
"Let's do something about human rights abuses in China."
11
41060
4120
00:46
And his boss had replied,
12
46020
1976
00:48
"We can't do anything about human rights abuses in China
13
48020
2696
00:50
because we have trade relations with China."
14
50740
2600
00:54
So my friend went away with his tail between his legs,
15
54500
2576
00:57
and six months later, he returned again to his boss,
16
57100
3160
01:01
and he said this time,
17
61060
1616
01:02
"Let's do something about human rights in Burma,"
18
62700
3496
01:06
as it was then called.
19
66220
1200
01:08
His boss once again paused
20
68220
2136
01:10
and said, "Oh, but we can't do anything about human rights in Burma
21
70380
4016
01:14
because we don't have any trade relations with Burma."
22
74420
3656
01:18
(Laughter)
23
78100
1656
01:19
This was the moment he knew he had to leave.
24
79780
2096
01:21
It wasn't just the hypocrisy that got to him.
25
81900
2360
01:24
It was the unwillingness of his government
26
84980
3256
01:28
to engage in conflict with other governments,
27
88260
2616
01:30
in tense discussions,
28
90900
1776
01:32
all the while, innocent people were being harmed.
29
92700
3800
01:37
We are constantly told
30
97420
2536
01:39
that conflict is bad
31
99980
2080
01:42
that compromise is good;
32
102740
2040
01:45
that conflict is bad
33
105460
1656
01:47
but consensus is good;
34
107140
2120
01:49
that conflict is bad
35
109940
2216
01:52
and collaboration is good.
36
112180
2560
01:55
But in my view,
37
115860
1296
01:57
that's far too simple a vision of the world.
38
117180
2376
01:59
We cannot know
39
119580
1896
02:01
whether conflict is bad
40
121500
2056
02:03
unless we know who is fighting,
41
123580
2816
02:06
why they are fighting
42
126420
2136
02:08
and how they are fighting.
43
128580
1856
02:10
And compromises can be thoroughly rotten
44
130460
3456
02:13
if they harm people who are not at the table,
45
133940
2680
02:17
people who are vulnerable, disempowered,
46
137420
2415
02:19
people whom we have an obligation to protect.
47
139859
3281
02:24
Now, you might be somewhat skeptical of a lawyer
48
144300
3056
02:27
arguing about the benefits of conflict
49
147380
3176
02:30
and creating problems for compromise,
50
150580
2616
02:33
but I did also qualify as a mediator,
51
153220
1816
02:35
and these days, I spend my time giving talks about ethics for free.
52
155060
3280
02:38
So as my bank manager likes to remind me, I'm downwardly mobile.
53
158980
3080
02:44
But if you accept my argument,
54
164100
3016
02:47
it should change not just the way we lead our personal lives,
55
167140
3176
02:50
which I wish to put to one side for the moment,
56
170340
2320
02:53
but it will change the way we think about major problems
57
173420
3776
02:57
of public health and the environment.
58
177220
2760
03:01
Let me explain.
59
181260
1200
03:04
Every middle schooler in the United States,
60
184180
2376
03:06
my 12-year-old daughter included,
61
186580
2656
03:09
learns that there are three branches of government,
62
189260
3856
03:13
the legislative, the executive and the judicial branch.
63
193140
3840
03:17
James Madison wrote,
64
197660
1416
03:19
"If there is any principle more sacred in our Constitution,
65
199100
5016
03:24
and indeed in any free constitution,
66
204140
2736
03:26
than any other,
67
206900
1496
03:28
it is that which separates
68
208420
2496
03:30
the legislative, the executive and the judicial powers."
69
210940
4120
03:35
Now, the framers were not just concerned
70
215900
3256
03:39
about the concentration and exercise of power.
71
219180
4096
03:43
They also understood the perils of influence.
72
223300
4000
03:48
Judges cannot determine the constitutionality of laws
73
228260
5096
03:53
if they participate in making those laws,
74
233380
3776
03:57
nor can they hold the other branches of government accountable
75
237180
3936
04:01
if they collaborate with them
76
241140
1936
04:03
or enter into close relationships with them.
77
243100
3160
04:07
The Constitution is, as one famous scholar put it,
78
247300
3896
04:11
"an invitation to struggle."
79
251220
2240
04:14
And we the people are served
80
254060
2776
04:16
when those branches do, indeed, struggle with each other.
81
256860
4400
04:23
Now, we recognize the importance of struggle
82
263100
3576
04:26
not just in the public sector
83
266700
2896
04:29
between our branches of government.
84
269620
2376
04:32
We also know it too in the private sector,
85
272020
3336
04:35
in relationships among corporations.
86
275380
2600
04:39
Let's imagine that two American airlines get together and agree
87
279180
5016
04:44
that they will not drop the price
88
284220
2176
04:46
of their economy class airfares below 250 dollars a ticket.
89
286420
4360
04:51
That is collaboration, some would say collusion,
90
291420
3856
04:55
not competition,
91
295300
1336
04:56
and we the people are harmed
92
296660
2816
04:59
because we pay more for our tickets.
93
299500
1840
05:02
Imagine similarly two airlines were to say,
94
302660
2256
05:04
"Look, Airline A, we'll take the route from LA to Chicago,"
95
304940
5016
05:09
and Airline B says, "We'll take the route from Chicago to DC,
96
309980
3176
05:13
and we won't compete."
97
313180
1456
05:14
Once again, that's collaboration or collusion instead of competition,
98
314660
4616
05:19
and we the people are harmed.
99
319300
2720
05:23
So we understand the importance of struggle
100
323700
5456
05:29
when it comes to relationships between branches of government,
101
329180
4240
05:34
the public sector.
102
334900
1696
05:36
We also understand the importance of conflict
103
336620
3416
05:40
when it comes to relationships among corporations,
104
340060
4336
05:44
the private sector.
105
344420
1656
05:46
But where we have forgotten it
106
346100
2576
05:48
is in the relationships between the public and the private.
107
348700
4416
05:53
And governments all over the world are collaborating with industry
108
353140
3696
05:56
to solve problems of public health and the environment,
109
356860
3776
06:00
often collaborating with the very corporations
110
360660
2976
06:03
that are creating or exacerbating the problems they are trying to solve.
111
363660
5840
06:10
We are told that these relationships
112
370900
3576
06:14
are a win-win.
113
374500
1680
06:17
But what if someone is losing out?
114
377180
3160
06:22
Let me give you some examples.
115
382100
2320
06:25
A United Nations agency decided to address a serious problem:
116
385660
3496
06:29
poor sanitation in schools in rural India.
117
389180
3600
06:34
They did so not just in collaboration with national and local governments
118
394020
4056
06:38
but also with a television company
119
398100
2496
06:40
and with a major multinational soda company.
120
400620
3840
06:45
In exchange for less than one million dollars,
121
405460
3136
06:48
that corporation received the benefits of a months-long promotional campaign
122
408620
4376
06:53
including a 12-hour telethon
123
413020
2176
06:55
all using the company's logo and color scheme.
124
415220
3200
06:59
This was an arrangement
125
419860
1520
07:01
which was totally understandable
126
421980
2856
07:04
from the corporation's point of view.
127
424860
1936
07:06
It enhances the reputation of the company
128
426820
2536
07:09
and it creates brand loyalty for its products.
129
429380
2520
07:13
But in my view,
130
433180
1616
07:14
this is profoundly problematic for the intergovernmental agency,
131
434820
3696
07:18
an agency that has a mission to promote sustainable living.
132
438540
4160
07:23
By increasing consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages
133
443700
3136
07:26
made from scarce local water supplies and drunk out of plastic bottles
134
446860
4296
07:31
in a country that is already grappling with obesity,
135
451180
3016
07:34
this is neither sustainable from a public health
136
454220
3416
07:37
nor an environmental point of view.
137
457660
2896
07:40
And in order to solve one public health problem,
138
460580
3336
07:43
the agency is sowing the seeds
139
463940
2296
07:46
of another.
140
466260
1200
07:49
This is just one example of dozens I discovered
141
469300
4296
07:53
in researching a book on the relationships between government and industry.
142
473620
5096
07:58
I could also have told you about the initiatives in parks
143
478740
3776
08:02
in London and throughout Britain,
144
482540
1616
08:04
involving the same company, promoting exercise,
145
484180
2400
08:07
or indeed of the British government creating voluntary pledges
146
487380
4856
08:12
in partnership with industry
147
492260
2176
08:14
instead of regulating industry.
148
494460
2736
08:17
These collaborations or partnerships have become the paradigm in public health,
149
497220
5656
08:22
and once again, they make sense from the point of view of industry.
150
502900
4056
08:26
It allows them to frame public health problems and their solutions
151
506980
3616
08:30
in ways that are least threatening to,
152
510620
2136
08:32
most consonant with their commercial interests.
153
512780
2856
08:35
So obesity becomes a problem
154
515660
2576
08:38
of individual decision-making,
155
518260
4256
08:42
of personal behavior,
156
522540
2055
08:44
personal responsibility and lack of physical activity.
157
524619
3177
08:47
It is not a problem,
158
527820
2096
08:49
when framed this way,
159
529940
1415
08:51
of a multinational food system involving major corporations.
160
531379
3617
08:55
And again, I don't blame industry.
161
535020
1656
08:56
Industry naturally engages in strategies of influence
162
536700
3416
09:00
to promote its commercial interests.
163
540140
2480
09:03
But governments have a responsibility
164
543380
3256
09:06
to develop counterstrategies
165
546660
2056
09:08
to protect us
166
548740
1816
09:10
and the common good.
167
550580
2680
09:13
The mistake that governments are making
168
553980
3560
09:18
when they collaborate in this way
169
558300
2576
09:20
with industry
170
560900
1336
09:22
is that they conflate
171
562260
2576
09:24
the common good
172
564860
1816
09:26
with common ground.
173
566700
1200
09:28
When you collaborate with industry,
174
568900
2776
09:31
you necessarily put off the table
175
571700
2816
09:34
things that might promote the common good to which industry will not agree.
176
574540
3576
09:38
Industry will not agree to increased regulation
177
578140
2776
09:40
unless it believes this will stave off even more regulation
178
580940
4176
09:45
or perhaps knock some competitors out of the market.
179
585140
3240
09:49
Nor can companies agree to do certain things,
180
589780
2296
09:52
for example raise the prices of their unhealthy products,
181
592100
2976
09:55
because that would violate competition law,
182
595100
2136
09:57
as we've established.
183
597260
1200
10:00
So our governments should not confound
184
600380
3216
10:03
the common good and common ground,
185
603620
2456
10:06
especially when common ground means reaching agreement with industry.
186
606100
5240
10:12
I want to give you another example,
187
612340
1696
10:14
moving from high-profile collaboration
188
614060
2136
10:16
to something that is below ground
189
616220
2496
10:18
both literally and figuratively:
190
618740
3256
10:22
the hydraulic fracturing of natural gas.
191
622020
2600
10:25
Imagine that you purchase a plot of land
192
625140
3696
10:28
not knowing the mineral rights have been sold.
193
628860
2216
10:31
This is before the fracking boom.
194
631100
1800
10:34
You build your dream home on that plot,
195
634180
3016
10:37
and shortly afterwards,
196
637220
1616
10:38
you discover that a gas company is building a well pad on your land.
197
638860
5400
10:44
That was the plight of the Hallowich family.
198
644860
3400
10:49
Within a very short period of time,
199
649020
2816
10:51
they began to complain of headaches,
200
651860
3216
10:55
of sore throats, of itchy eyes,
201
655100
3216
10:58
in addition to the interference of the noise, vibration
202
658340
2816
11:01
and the bright lights from the flaring of natural gas.
203
661180
3136
11:04
They were very vocal in their criticisms,
204
664340
2320
11:07
and then they fell silent.
205
667780
1360
11:10
And thanks to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, where this image appeared,
206
670220
3256
11:13
and one other newspaper, we discovered why they fell silent.
207
673500
2856
11:16
The newspapers went to the court and said, "What happened to the Hallowiches?"
208
676380
3696
11:20
And it turned out the Hallowiches had made a secret settlement
209
680100
3376
11:23
with the gas operators, and it was a take-it-or-leave-it settlement.
210
683500
3896
11:27
The gas company said,
211
687420
1256
11:28
you can have a six-figure sum
212
688700
2416
11:31
to move elsewhere and start your lives again,
213
691140
2136
11:33
but in return
214
693300
1216
11:34
you must promise not to speak of your experience with our company,
215
694540
3856
11:38
not to speak of your experience with fracking,
216
698420
2576
11:41
not to speak about the health consequences
217
701020
3720
11:45
that might have been revealed by a medical examination.
218
705500
2920
11:49
Now, I do not blame the Hallowiches for accepting
219
709540
2816
11:52
a take-it-or-leave-it settlement
220
712380
2816
11:55
and starting their lives elsewhere.
221
715220
2216
11:57
And one can understand
222
717460
1216
11:58
why the company would wish to silence a squeaky wheel.
223
718700
2976
12:01
What I want to point the finger at is the legal and regulatory system,
224
721700
3776
12:05
a system in which there are networks of agreements
225
725500
2456
12:07
just like this one
226
727980
1896
12:09
which serve to silence people and seal off data points
227
729900
3560
12:14
from public health experts and epidemiologists,
228
734380
2656
12:17
a system in which regulators
229
737060
1616
12:18
will even refrain from issuing a violation notice
230
738700
3136
12:21
in the event of pollution
231
741860
1376
12:23
if the landowner and the gas company
232
743260
2136
12:25
agree to settle.
233
745420
1576
12:27
This is a system which isn't just bad from a public health point of view;
234
747020
3936
12:30
it exposes hazards to local families
235
750980
3296
12:34
who remain in the dark.
236
754300
2200
12:39
Now, I have given you two examples not because they are isolated examples.
237
759020
4496
12:43
They are examples of a systemic problem.
238
763540
2496
12:46
I could share some counterexamples,
239
766060
2376
12:48
the case for example of the public official
240
768460
2976
12:51
who sues the pharmaceutical company
241
771460
3096
12:54
for concealing the fact
242
774580
1616
12:56
that its antidepressant increases suicidal thoughts in adolescents.
243
776220
6576
13:02
I can tell you about the regulator who went after the food company
244
782820
3896
13:06
for exaggerating the purported health benefits of its yogurt.
245
786740
3736
13:10
And I can tell you about the legislator
246
790500
3456
13:13
who despite heavy lobbying directed at both sides of the aisle
247
793980
4296
13:18
pushes for environmental protections.
248
798300
3920
13:22
These are isolated examples,
249
802980
1736
13:24
but they are beacons of light in the darkness,
250
804740
4176
13:28
and they can show us the way.
251
808940
3680
13:33
I began by suggesting that sometimes we need to engage in conflict.
252
813820
4280
13:39
Governments should tussle with,
253
819300
3536
13:42
struggle with, at times engage in direct conflict with corporations.
254
822860
5800
13:49
This is not because governments are inherently good
255
829780
4256
13:54
and corporations are inherently evil.
256
834060
2256
13:56
Each is capable of good or ill.
257
836340
4000
14:01
But corporations understandably act to promote their commercial interests,
258
841260
4720
14:06
and they do so either sometimes undermining or promoting the common good.
259
846900
6056
14:12
But it is the responsibility of governments
260
852980
3976
14:16
to protect and promote the common good.
261
856980
3216
14:20
And we should insist
262
860220
2696
14:22
that they fight to do so.
263
862940
2400
14:26
This is because governments
264
866620
2496
14:29
are the guardians
265
869140
1400
14:31
of public health;
266
871420
1200
14:33
governments are the guardians
267
873740
2736
14:36
of the environment;
268
876500
1856
14:38
and it is governments
269
878380
1816
14:40
that are guardians
270
880220
1296
14:41
of these essential parts of our common good.
271
881540
5360
14:47
Thank you.
272
887500
1216
14:48
(Applause)
273
888740
6228
About this website

This site will introduce you to YouTube videos that are useful for learning English. You will see English lessons taught by top-notch teachers from around the world. Double-click on the English subtitles displayed on each video page to play the video from there. The subtitles scroll in sync with the video playback. If you have any comments or requests, please contact us using this contact form.

https://forms.gle/WvT1wiN1qDtmnspy7