Sarah Jones: One woman, five characters, and a sex lesson from the future

譯者: Yow-Jen Shieh 審譯者: Xiaoya Song

This is a play called "Sell/Buy/Date."

這戲劇叫「賣/買/日」。

It's my first since "Bridge and Tunnel," which I did on Broadway,

是我繼「橋梁和隧道」後的作品，

and this one, I -- thank you --

而這次，感謝大家，

I've excerpted it just for you, so here we go.

我為各位擷取了一段，

那我們開始吧！

Right. Class, let's be absolutely certain

同學們，在我們開始之前，

all electronic devices are switched off before we begin.

先確定所有電子設備都已經關機。

So class, hopefully you'll recognize what you just heard me say as the -- ?

大家應該知道我指的是...

Very good, the cellular phone announcement.

非常好，就是請把手機關機，

Right? This was also known as a mobile phone.

也就是所謂的移動電話。

So you'll remember, people of that era

大家要記得那個年代的人，

would have had an external electronic device, right,

會去買一種電子設備，

something like this,

長得像這樣，

and they all would have carried one of these around with them,

然後隨身攜帶，

而且最令他們害怕的，

and amongst their biggest fears was the sheer mortification

就是手機在不對的時機響起。

that one of these might ring at some inopportune moment.

Right? So a bit of trivia about that era for you.

稍微幫大家複習一下那個年代。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So the format of today's class is

所以今天的課程，

I will be presenting multiple BERT modules today

我會介紹幾個BERT模組，

from that period in history, right,

取自我剛剛說的那個年代，

so starting circa 2016.

大約是2016年。

And remember, this was the very first year of the BERT program.

要記住，BERT計畫也在這年開始，

So we've got quite a few of these to get through.

所以我們有不少模組可以用。

Bear in mind, I will be living into various different bodies,

記住，我會進到不同的身體、

different ages,

不同年齡，

also what were then called races, or ethnic groups,

還有當時所謂的人種、族群，

as you'll remember from Unit 1.

我們在單元一介紹過的。

And -- (Laughter) -- and along the gender continuum,

而且，(笑聲)

在整個性別連續集，

I will be living into males as well.

我可能會變成男生，

It was quite binary at that time.

當時只有男女兩種分類。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Also, don't forget, we are reading the book module

不要忘了，

我們唸的是跟下禮拜， 性別有關的書本內容。

for next week's focus on gender.

Now, I know some of you have requested the book in pill form.

我知道有些人要求「藥丸式課本」，

I know people still believe ingesting it is better for retention,

覺得身體消化以後記憶比較深刻，

but since we are trying to experience what our forebears did, right,

但因為我們是想體驗先人的生活，

let's please just consider doing the actual ocular reading, okay?

所以我們還是試著， 用「眼睛」去學習，好嗎？

And also, how many people have your emotional shunts engaged?

有人現在戴著「情感阻絕器」嗎？

Right. Please toggle them off. Okay?

那麻煩你們關掉好嗎？

I know it's challenging, but I want you to be able to feel the entire

我知道這不容易，

但我希望你們去感受 所有的、自然的情緒。

natural emo range, all right?

It is essential to this part of the syllabus.

這是這門課很重要的環節。

Yes, Macy?

有問題嗎，梅西？

All right. I understand. If you're unwilling to --

好我知道了，如果你不想...

All right, well, we can discuss that after class.

沒關係我們下課再談...

All right, we will discuss your concerns.

好，我們再討論，

Just relax. Nobody's died and gone to composting.

放輕鬆， 不會有人死了拿去做肥料。

Okay. After class. Okay? After class.

沒事，下課再說好嗎？

我們還是趕快開始吧。

Let's just get started, okay.

This first subject identified as a middle-class homemaker.

第一個受訪者是中產階級的主婦。

Remember, these early modules

要記得這些早期的樣本，

in these people's full identities were protected,

受測者的身份是保密的，

and this allowed them to speak more freely on our topic,

他們才能暢所欲言，

which for many of them was taboo.

畢竟當時有人視言論自由為大忌。

Okay honey, now, I'm ready when you are.

喔，親愛的， 你好了就開始吧。

No, sweetheart, I said, I'm ready when you are.

不是，親愛的， 我說，你好了就開始。

I'm freezing.

快冷死了。

It's like a meat locker in here in this recording studio.

這裡冷得像冷凍肉櫃。

I should have brought a shmata.

我應該帶一件毯子來的。

All this fancy technology but they can't afford heat.

搞這麼多高科技， 結果連個暖氣都沒有。

What is he saying? I can't hear you!

在說什麼？ 我聽不到喔！

I can't hear you through the glass, honey!

我隔著玻璃聽不到你！

There you are in my ear.

喔，聽到你的聲音了。

Oh, you can hear me?

喔，你聽得到我啊？

The whole time.

一直都有聽到。

Oh, yes, I am a little chilly.

對啦，我覺得有點冷。

Yes, oh the cold is for the machines, the new technology. Okay.

冷氣是怕機器過熱啊？

高科技嘛，沒事。

Yes, now remind me again, you're recording not only my voice but my feelings

你再說一次， 你除了在錄我的聲音，

也錄了感覺和記憶，是吧？

and my memories? Right.

Yes, BERT, yes, I read about it.

BERT，對，我有印象，

Bio-Empathetic Resonant Technology.

全名是「生物感知情緒共鳴」。

Right, right, so people will be able to feel my experience

沒問題，清楚了。

所以其他人可以藉此， 感受我的經歷和記憶。

and my memory? Okay.

沒問題，我準備好了。

No, right, I'm ready.

I just thought you were going to give me a test to see how my memory's doing.

我以為你要測我的記憶力，

正要告訴你別忙了， 我記憶力超差。

I was going to tell you you're too late, it's already bad news.

No, no, go ahead, honey.

沒關係，繼續吧孩子。

Oh, that's the first question?

喔，第一題是這個啊，

What do I think of prostitution?

「我對賣淫有什麼想法？」

Are you soliciting me, young man?

你在調戲我嗎，小子？

I've heard of May-December romances, but what are you, about 20 years old?

我是聽過「老少配」， 但你才幾歲，20嗎？

Eighteen? Eighteen years.

18？才18歲啊。

I think I have candies in my purse older than 18 years old.

我那個年紀好像還在吃糖吧。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

I'm teasing you, sweetheart. No, I'm comfortable with any question.

我在鬧你啦，年輕人。 我不會覺得不舒服。

Sure. So about the prostitution -- oh, sex worker, sex worker.

所以關於賣淫... 喔，要叫「性工作者」。

No, just in my day, they called it prostitution, not sex work.

我們以前沒有「性工作」這個說法。

Oh, because it includes pornography also?

喔，所以拍A片也算？

Okay.

知道了。

No, well, I guess when I was a girl,

我只是記得我年輕的時候，

we didn't really have a name for that either.

好像也不會這樣說。

We would have said dirty magazines, I suppose, or dirty movies.

頂多說黃色雜誌、三級片之類的。

Well, it's not like what you have with the Internet.

當然跟現在網路上的不能比。

No, well, I don't mind sharing.

沒差，我不介意講這個。

My late husband and I, we were a very romantic couple.

我老公過世前和我非常恩愛。

Lots of tenderness, you understand.

我們過得很幸福，你知道的。

Well, as you get older, you know, at one point I thought my husband

但人也會老，我開始覺得，

他需要吃點威而鋼助興，

might be helped by using some of the pills men can take,

but he wasn't interested in those,

但他不想碰這些。

so I thought, what about maybe watching an adult movie on the Internet?

所以我想，

不然在網路上找些A片好了，

Just for inspiration, you understand.

搞不好會有些「靈感」。

Well, at the time, neither of us were very good on the computer,

當然我們都不太會用電腦，

so usually, if we needed help with the Internet,

通常我們要上網的話，

we would just call our children or our grandchildren,

就叫兒女或孫子、孫女來幫忙，

but obviously, in this case, that wasn't an option,

但顯然這次不能這樣。

so I thought, I'll have a look myself, just to see.

那我只好自己試試看，

反正只是...

How difficult could it be?

看個片嘛，能有多難？

You search for certain key words and you look --

把關鍵字打進去一看，

Oh wow is right, young man.

喔，我嚇了一跳，

You can't imagine what I saw.

你想像不到那個的畫面。

Well, first of all, I was just trying to find, you know, couples,

首先呢，我只是想找兩個人的、

normal couples making love,

一般情侶在做愛那種。

but this, so many people together at one time.

結果呢， 跑出來的是一群人一起。

You couldn't tell which part belonged to which body.

你都不知道哪塊肉是誰身上的。

How they even got the cameras to capture some of this, I couldn't tell you.

我甚至不知道攝影機 怎麼有辦法拍到這些畫面。

But the one thing they didn't capture was making love.

但他們唯一沒拍到的就是「做愛」。

There was lots of making of something,

他們是在「做」些什麼沒錯，

but they took the love part right out of it, you know, the fun.

但不包含愛，這才是重點。

It was all very extreme, you know?

看起來很「極限」你知道嗎？

Like you would say, with the extreme sports.

就是「極限運動」的那種「極限」。

Lots of endurance,

是很持久，

but never tenderness.

但完全沒有愛。

So anyway, needless to say, that was $19.95 I'll never get back again,

更不用說我白花了19.95塊美金，

but it only showed up on the credit card as "entertainment services,"

但信用卡帳單只會寫「娛樂支出」，

so my husband was never the wiser,

所以我老公一直被蒙在鼓裡，

and after all of that,

一直到...

well, you could say it turned out

嗯可以說是，

he didn't need the extra inspiration after all.

一直到他踏進棺材都不知道。

好的，下個受訪者是一名年輕女性。 (掌聲)

Right, so next subject is a young woman -- (Applause) --

Next subject, class, is a young woman called Bella,

下個受訪者， 是叫做貝拉的年輕女孩，

a university student interviewed in 2016

在2016年受訪時是大學學生，

during what was called an Intro to Feminist Porn class

在「女性主義成人片入門」的課堂上，

as part of her major in sex work at a college in the Bay Area.

在女性主義的大本營， 主修「性工作研究」。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Yeah, I just want to, like, get a recording of, like,

我也想要稍微錄一下，

you guys recording me,

就像你們也在拍我。

like a meta recording, or whatever.

像幕後花絮。

It's just like this whole experience is just, like, really amazing,

這次的經驗，真的非常難得。

and I'd like to capture that for, like, Instagram and my Tumblr.

想說拍下來， 上傳到我的Instagram和Tumblr。

So, like, hi guys, it's me, Bella,

嗨大家，我是貝拉，

and I am, like, being interviewed right now

我現在正在接受採訪，

for this, like, really amazing Bio-Empathetic Resonance Technology,

是一項新技術叫 「生物感知情緒共鳴」。

which is, like, basically where they are, like, recording, as you can see

基本上他們呢，如你所見，

透過這些電極之類的，

from these, whatever, like, electrodes,

the formation of, like, neuropeptides in my hippocampus, or whatever.

記錄我的海馬迴， 裡面的神經活動什麼的。

They will later be able to reconstitute these

之後他們就可以重新建構，

as, like, my own actual memory, like actual experiences,

我的記憶、我的感受，

so other people can, like, actually feel what I'm feeling right now.

其他人就可以， 知道我現在的感覺。

Okay. Okay.

之類的，就是這樣。

So, like, hello, BERT person of the future who is experiencing me.

哈囉，未來某個透過BERT， 正在感受我的人你好。

This is what it feels like to be, like, a college freshman,

這就是當大學新鮮人的感覺，

and also the, like, headache that you are experiencing through me

然後你現在可能有點頭痛，

is the, like, residual effect of the Jell-O shots which I had last night

可能是因為我昨天， 吃太多酒果凍所以宿醉，

at the bi-weekly feminist pole dancing party

我昨天參加一周兩次的 女性主義鋼管舞派對，

which I cohost on Wednesdays.

我是禮拜三的主辦人。

It's called "Don't Get All Pole-emical" -- (Laughter) --

主題是「不要太嗆辣」。 (笑聲)

and it's in Beekman Hall,

地點是在畢克曼廳，

and, what else, like,

然後還有什麼...

non-Jell-O shots are also available for vegans,

我們也提供非果凍式的酒給素食者。

and, oh, okay, yeah, totally, yeah, we should also focus on your questions also.

還有...

喔當然，我們回到你的問題。

沒錯，你也知道，

So for your record, I am, like, a sex work studies major

我主修「性工作研究」，

but minoring in social media

副修「社群媒體」，

with a concentration on notable YouTube memes.

主要研究YouTube的文化傳播現象。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Yes, well, of course, like, I consider myself to be, like,

喔當然，我覺得我本人，

obviously, like, a feminist.

很明顯就是女性主義者。

I was named for Bella Abzug, who was, like, a famous, like,

我跟貝拉阿布朱格同名， 她是歷史上有名的，

feminist from history,

女性主義者。

and, like, also I feel that it is, like, important to, like, represent women

然後我覺得， 替女性發聲很重要，

who are, like, sex-positive feminists.

尤其我們「性積極女性主義者」。

What is sex-negative?

你問我什麼是「性消極」？

Well, like, I guess I would ask, like, what do you think

嗯，那我就想問你，

你覺得「性消極」是什麼？ (笑聲)

sex-negative is? (Laughter)

Yeah, because, like, the terms that we use are, like, so important, because, like,

其實這些用詞很重要，

we call it sex work because it helps people understand that, like, it's work,

我們說「性工作」就是為了 讓一般人知道那是「工作」。

and, like, you know, just like there are, like, healthcare providers

就像醫護人員提供醫療，

and, like, insurance providers,

保險業者提供保險，

like, we think of these workers as, like, sex care providers.

我們覺得這些工作者， 也只是在提供「性照護」。

Yeah, but like, I don't think of myself like, providing direct

當然我不覺得，

我必須要去從事性工作，

sex care services per se as, like, being a requirement

才能幫性工作者講話。

for me to be, like, an advocate.

Like, I support other women's right to choose it voluntarily, like,

我是幫其他女性， 捍衛自由選擇的權利，

if they enjoy it.

如果她們樂在其中。

Yeah, but, like, I see myself going forward

所以我覺得自己比較像是，

as more likely, like, protecting sex workers',

想去保障性工作者的

like, legal freedoms and rights.

法律上的自由和權利。

Yeah, so, like, basically, I'm planning on becoming a lawyer.

所以我基本上會去當律師。

Right, class. (Laughter) (Applause)

好的，同學們。 (笑聲)(掌聲)

So these next two modules are also circa 2016.

接下來的兩個人 也是2016年左右錄的。

One subject is an Irishwoman with a particularly noteworthy

其中一名愛爾蘭女性，

跟這次的議題切身相關。

relationship to this issue,

but first will be a West Indian woman,

但我們先看另一名 來自加勒比海的女性，

a self-described escort

說自己是應召女郎。

who was recorded at a sex workers' rights rally and parade.

地點是在一場 關於性工作權的示威遊行。

She was interviewed whilst marching in full carnival headdress

她受訪時戴著華麗的嘉年華頭飾，

and very little else.

身上只有少少的布料。

All right, you want me to start talking now.

好啊，你要我現在說嗎？

Yeah, I told you, you can put those wires anywhere you want to

沒關係，那些線你隨便黏，

as long as it don't get in the way.

只要它不會「跑進去」。

Yeah, no, but, tell me again what the name of -- BERT? BERT.

你再說一次這叫...BERT？ 叫BERT。

Yeah, I was telling you, you know, I think I have in all my time

我做這行這麼久， 不只一個客人叫這個名字，

I have had at least one client with that name, so this won't be the first time

所以這也不是第一次 我被BERT「佈滿」全身。

I had BERT all over me.

Oh, I'm sorry,

抱歉，

but you got to get into the spirit of it if you're going to interview me.

但如果想採訪我， 你要再放開一點。

All right? You can say it.

可以嗎？跟著喊！

「沒正義，不平靜」

No justice, no piece! No justice, no piece!

But you see the sign? You get it? P-I-E-C-E. No justice, no piece of us.

你有看懂標語嗎？

沒有正義， 我們也不幫你「平靜」性慾。

You understand?

懂了吧？

Right, so that's the part where I was telling you

所以我剛剛是要跟你說的，

is that when I first came to this country, I worked every job I could find.

我剛來到這裡時， 去做了每一份我能做的工作。

I was a nanny; I was a home care attendant for all these different old people,

我當過褓姆，也當過看護， 照顧一堆老人家。

and then I said, child, if I have to touch another white man's backside,

然後我就想， 一樣要碰這些白人的下體，

I might as well get paid a lot more money for it than this,

我該找個可以賺多點的吧。

you understand?

你懂我的意思嗎？

Pshh, you know how hard it is being a domestic worker?

老天，你知道當看護多累嗎？

Some of these men, they're heavy.

有些人根本過重。

You have to pick them up and flip them over.

還要把他們抱起來再翻身。

Now, I let them pick me up and flip me over, you understand?

我現在被他們抱起來翻身，懂嗎？

Well, you have to have a sense of humor about it, that's what I think.

生活要有點幽默感， 至少我是這麼認為啦。

No, but see, listen,

不然你去問，

you find me somebody who don't hate some part of their job.

有誰真的百分之百 熱愛自己的工作。

I mean, there's a lot of things about this job that I hate,

當然我也不喜歡我的工作，

but the money is not one of them,

但我愛它的收入。

and I will tell you, as long as this is the best possibility

而且我告訴你， 這是我唯一的可能，

for me to make real money,

真的去賺到一點錢。

I am going to be Jamaican-No-Fakin' if that's what they want to call me.

客人以為我是牙買加人， 我就是牙買加人。

No, I'm not even from Jamaica. That's how they market me.

我當然不是， 但他們是這樣推銷我的。

My family is from Trinidad and the Virgin Islands.

我的家人在千里達和維京群島。

They don't know what I do, but you know what?

他們不知道我的職業，但又怎樣？

My children, they know that their school fees are paid,

我的小孩知道我幫他們付學費，

they have their books and their computer,

他們買得起課本和電腦，

and this way, I know that they have a chance.

所以我知道他們以後有更多機會。

So I'm not going to tell you that what I do, it's easy,

我不會跟你說我的工作內容， 沒什麼好說的。

I'm not going to tell you that I feel -- what's that you said, liberated?

我也不想說我的感覺， 你說的什麼「被解放」。

我只覺得我賺到錢。

But I'm going to tell you that I feel paid.

Right. (Applause)

好的。(掌聲)

Thanks, that's lovely, and just the cup of tea, love,

謝謝親愛的， 給我一杯茶就好，

and just a splash of the whiskey.

幫我加一點威士忌。

It's perfect, that's grand. Just a drop more. A splash. Perfect.

太棒了，謝謝， 再多倒一些，對，完美。

What was your name? Peter? Is that right, so, Peter?

你叫什麼？彼得？ 我有叫對嗎？彼得？

Right. So that, that is the unique part of it for me,

對啊， 所以我算是比較特殊的吧。

right, is that I ended up in both,

我最後算是都有涉獵，

first in the convent, and then in the prostitution after. That's right.

先是在修道院， 然後又在妓院。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

So one woman at the university here in Dublin, she wrote about me.

有個在都柏林的女大學生寫到我，

She said, Maureen Fitzroy is the living embodiment of the whore-virgin dichotomy.

她說「莫琳菲茲洛就是 既是處女又是妓女的真實案例」，

Right? (Laughter)

是這樣嗎？(笑聲)

Doesn't it sound like something you need to go into hospital?

聽起來比較需要去看醫師。

Well, I've got this terrible dichotomy.

我如果被這樣歸類，

Doesn't it.

不是嗎？

Right. Well, for me though, it was, as a girl, it started with me dad.

我的故事是這樣的， 一開始都是我爸。

I mean, half the time, when he spoke to us, it was just a sort of

他對我們說的話幾乎一大半，

tell us we were all useless rotten idiots and we had no morals, that type of thing.

都在罵我們是爛白癡、 沒腦沒格調之類的。

And I certainly didn't do myself any favors.

我也不太反抗。

By the time I was 16,

到了我16歲，

I had started messing about with this older fella,

我跟一個大叔搞上了。

and he wanted it to be our little secret,

他本來說這是我們之間的小秘密，

and I did as I was told, didn't I,

我也很聽話地保密。

and when that got back to me dad, he had me sent straightaway to the convent.

結果我爸還是知道了， 他馬上把我送進修道院。

Well no, that older fella, he would still come to find me in the convent.

結果呢， 那位大叔還是會跑來找我。

Yeah, he'd leave me notes

他會留字條給我，

tucked into the holes in the brick at the back of the charity shop

塞在二手店後面磚牆的石縫裡。

so we could meet.

然後我們就能見面。

And he'd tell me how he's leaving his wife,

他跟我說他快跟老婆離婚了，

and I believed him, until I got pregnant.

我相信他，直到我懷孕。

I did, Peter, and I left him a note about it in our special place there,

相信我，彼得， 然後我也給他留了字條，

and I never did hear from him again.

我再也沒有他的消息。

No, I gave it up for adoption so it could have a decent life,

我把孩子送養了， 讓他過好一點的生活。

and then they wouldn't let me back into the convent.

但修道院也不讓我回去了。

No, my one sister Virginia gave me a fiver for the coach to Dublin,

我妹給我五塊錢讓我來都柏林，

and that's how I ended up here.

所以我才在這裡。

Well, surprise, surprise, I fell in love with another fella much older than me,

命運弄人啊， 我又愛上了一個大叔。

and I always say I was just so happy because he didn't drink,

本來還沾沾自喜， 嫁了一個不喝酒的好老公，

I married the bastard.

後來才知道嫁錯人。

Well, he didn't drink, but he did have just the wee heroin problem, didn't he,

是啊他是不喝酒， 但他會吸海洛因。

and -- That's right, and before I knew it,

在我發現他吸毒前，

he was the one who turned me on to the prostitution, my own husband.

他就讓我去賣淫，我的丈夫。

He had me supporting the both of us.

他讓我養家。

I was 18.

我那年才18歲。

Well, it wasn't Pretty Woman, I can tell you that.

你以為會像「麻雀變鳳凰」嗎？

That Julia Roberts,

如果茱莉亞羅勃茲，

if she'd ever had to sleep with a man to put a few pounds in her pocket,

是為了幾個臭錢要去睡男人，

I don't think she'd ever have made that film.

她才不會拍那部電影。

Well, for your record,

只想跟你說，

my opinion of the legalization, I'd say I'm against it.

性工作合法化，我反對。

I just, I don't care what these young girls say.

我只是不在乎這些妹妹說的。

You know, living like that, you're just lost,

那樣子過生活非常茫然。

and, you know, I'm 63 years old.

我現在已經63歲了，

I'm still trying to find who I am.

我還在問「我是誰？」

You know, I never was a wife or a nun,

我從來不是一名妻子或是修女，

or a prostitute even, really, not really.

甚至妓女，不完全是。

Nobody ever asked who I wanted to be.

沒人問過我想當什麼，

They just told me,

我受盡擺佈。

and if you legalize it,

如果你讓它合法了，

then you're really telling these girls, "Go on and get lost for a living,"

就等於告訴這些妹妹， 「去吧，為了生計迷失吧！」

and a lot of them, they'll do as they're told.

然後很多女生， 就會受人擺佈。

All right, so four perspectives from four quite -- (Applause) --

好的，四個人物從非常... (掌聲)

four quite different voices there, right?

非常不同的角度，對吧？

One woman saying sex itself is natural but the sex industry seems to

第一個女性說「性」本身很自然，

但性產業在圖利、販賣「性」。

mechanize or industrialize it.

Then the second woman considered sex work to be empowering,

第二位女性認為， 性工作要被「賦權」、解放，

liberating, and feminist, though she, herself, notably,

但是女性主義者如她，

did not seem keen to do it.

也沒有想去做些什麼。

The third woman, who actually was a so-called sex worker

第三位女性， 本身就是所謂的性工作者，

did not agree that it was liberating but she wanted the right

不同意解放的說法，

但她想要被賦予經濟權。

to the economic empowerment,

and then we hear the fourth woman saying not only prostitution itself

至於第四位女性， 覺得不只是賣淫這件事，

but proscribed roles for women in general

而是我們的社會剝奪了女性

prevented her from ever finding who she was, right?

去追尋自我價值的角色。

So another fact most people did not know

補充一個大家不太知道的訊息，

was the average age of an at-risk girl being introduced to the sex industry

女性被帶入性產業的平均年齡，

was 12 or 13.

是12到13歲。

Also consider that the age when all girls in that society

然後幾乎所有的女性，

first became exposed to sexualized images of women

在更小的時候，

都接觸到了關於女性的性徵概念。

was quite a bit earlier, right?

This was a doll called Barbie, right?

比如說芭比娃娃，對吧？

I initially thought she was an educational tool for anorexia prevention --

我本來以為她是預防厭食症的教具，

(Laughter) --

(笑聲)

but actually she was considered by many

結果大部分的人反而，

to be a wholesome symbol of femininity,

覺得她是女性的「完美」形象，

and often young girls began what was called dieting.

年輕女生會因此節食。

Remember this? This was restricting food intake on purpose

還記得節食嗎？

就是到了六歲左右， 開始刻意限制食物的攝取。

by the age of six,

and defining themselves based on attractiveness

大概也是在這個年紀，

by around that same time. Right?

會用魅力定義自己。

Yes?

有問題嗎？

Right, Bradley, okay, excellent point.

布萊德利，好問題。

So there was a lucrative market in that society in convincing all people

因為商機龐大， 所以他們想說服大眾，

they had to look a certain way to even have a sex life, right?

掌控大眾的審美觀， 甚至他們的性生活。

But girls, especially, were expected to be "sexy" while avoiding

但特別是女生， 在展現性的魅力時，

一方面想要「性感」， 又不想被說「蕩婦」。

being perceived as "sluts" for being sexual. Right?

So there's that shame piece we've heard about.

我們聽過不少案例。

Yes.

還有嗎？

Valerie, right? Okay, very good.

薇勒麗，說得好。

Of course, men were having sex as well,

當然，男人也做愛，

but you'll remember from the reading,

但你記得上次的講義說，

what were male sluts called?

放蕩的男性會被叫？

Very good, they were called men.

對，還是叫「男人」。

(Laughter) (Applause)

(笑聲)(掌聲)

So not easy living in a world like that, right?

想在當年生活不容易啊。

Though it was not all bad news either.

當然也不全那麼糟。

Most women in the early 2000s considered themselves empowered,

21世紀初大部分的女性， 認為她們被賦權，

and men generally felt they were also evolved in this area,

男性普遍也認為自己有在進步。

and, in fact, most people would have been aware of issues

事實上，大部分的人 會關心人口販賣等議題。

like human trafficking, for example,

但他們不會把這些議題，

but they would have seen that as quite separate

和娛樂性的成人產業 聯想在一起。

from more recreational adult entertainment.

And so we'll just very briefly, class -- we don't have a lot of time --

所以我們趕快， 同學我們時間不多，

we'll just very briefly hear from a man

我們趕快聽一位男性，

on our topic at this stage.

對我們今天討論的看法。

So this next subject was interviewed on the night of his bachelor party.

他在自己的單身派對那晚被訪問。

Dude, can you, all right, can you just keep it down?

老兄，不好意思， 可以小聲一點嗎？

I'm trying to talk to BERT right now.

我在跟BERT講話。

Oh, your name's not BERT.

喔，你不叫BERT。

BERT's the name of the, oh, all right.

BERT是這個計劃的名稱，知道了。

No, no, no, totally, it's totally fine. I'm mostly sober,

沒事，別擔心，我沒醉。

so I just want to be helpful.

希望我能幫上忙。

Yeah, and I totally believe in causes, yeah, like, all that stuff.

我完全相信因果報應那套。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

And actually, I'm wearing Toms right now.

不瞞你說，我還穿 Toms 。

Yeah, Toms, like, the shoes,

就是 Toms 那個牌子的鞋。

like, you buy a pair and then a kid in Africa gets clean water.

就是你買一雙， 非洲的孩子就有乾淨的水。

Yeah. Totally.

對，完全。

But what was the question again? Sorry.

你剛剛問什麼？抱歉。

Of course I believe in women's rights. I'm marrying a woman.

我當然相信女人有權利， 我正要娶一個。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

No, but I mean, like, just because I'm in a strip club parking lot

不能這麼說，不能因為 我在脫衣舞廳的停車場，

doesn't mean that I'm, like, a sexist or whatever.

就說我歧視女性之類的。

My fiancee is totally amazing, she's totally a strong girl, woman,

我未婚妻就很棒，

完全是很堅強的女性、 又聰明，就是很完美。

smart woman, like, the whole thing.

Yeah, she knows I'm here. She's probably at a strip club herself right now,

她知道我來這。 她自己可能也在另一家吧，

就好玩嘛，朋友辦的。

like, as a joke, same as me.

My best man, I told him he could surprise me,

我跟我伴郎說， 他可以準備一些驚喜，

and he thought this would be hilarious,

他可能覺得這樣很好玩吧，

but this is not something.

但這其實沒什麼。

Yeah, we all went to B school together.

對，他是我商學院的同學。

Wharton.

華頓商學院。

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

Yeah, so, dude, can you guys --

欸你們那邊...

All right, but it's my bachelor party,

但今天我最大。

and I can spend it in the parking lot with Anderson Cooper if I want to.

我就是想在停車場 被安德森庫柏訪問。

All right, I'll see you in there.

好啦我馬上進去。

All right, okay, so Anderson,

好的，大記者，

so, like, first of all, stripping,

首先，關於脫衣舞。

but then, like, all the other things you're talking about,

但那跟其他你說的，

prostitution and all that stuff, that's, like, not the same thing at all.

賣淫那類的不能相提並論。

You know? Like, you keep calling it the sex industry or whatever,

就像你一直說是性產業，

but it's like, if the girl wants to be an exotic dancer

但如果有個女生就是愛跳呢？

and she's 18, like, that's her right.

而且如果她成年了，這是她的自由。

Whoa, whoa, I hear what you're saying, but I just feel like people,

我有聽到你說的，只是覺得，

有人搞得好像男人都是獵食者，

they just want to make it seem like all dudes are just, like, predators,

that we would just automatically go to a prostitute, or whatever.

會自動去獵捕妓女什麼的。

Even, like, when I pledged, you know, like when I rushed my fraternity.

連我在起誓的時候， 兄弟會的那個儀式。

My brothers who I'm close to, those guys, they're all like me.

跟我很好的哥兒們， 我們都不是那種人，

We're just normal people, but, like, there's this myth that you must

我們很普通，但不知道為什麼，

就一定要裝得很man， 說什麼不見色忘友之類的。

be that guy who is kind of an asshole, and like, all bros before hos or whatever.

And actually, like, bros before hos, it doesn't mean like what it sounds like.

當然說不見色忘友， 不是說不准談戀愛。

It's actually just like a joking way of saying that you care about your brothers

只是想換個方式， 要你關心你的兄弟，

and you put them first.

而且把他們放在重要的位置。

Yeah, but, you can't blame the media, either.

而且你也不能怪媒體。

I mean, like, if you go watch "Hangover 2,"

比如說你去看「醉後大丈夫2」，

and you think that's an instruction manual

然後你覺得那就是你該過的生活，

for your life, like, I don't know what to tell you.

那我還有什麼好說的？

You know? You don't watch "Bourne Identity"

懂我意思嗎？ 你不會看完「神鬼認證」，

and go drive your car over a gondola in Venice. (Laughter)

就去威尼斯把車開上纜車頂。 (笑聲)

Well, yeah, okay, like, if you're a little kid or whatever,

當然如果你是小孩子什麼的，

of course it's different, but --

那就另當別論，可是，

Yeah, all right, I remember one thing like that.

好，比如說我記得，

I was at this kid's house one time playing GTA,

我記得小時候玩 GTA。

uh, Grand Theft Auto?

就是「俠盜獵車手」啊。

Dude, are you from Canada? (Laughter)

你加拿大來的喔？(笑聲)

So, like, whatever, with Grand Theft Auto,

隨便啦，就是我們在玩，

you're this kid, like, you're this guy walking around or whatever,

你就是電玩的主角， 在裡面晃來晃去，

and you can basically, like, the more cops you kill,

基本上你殺越多警察，

the more points you get, and stuff like that.

就越高分這樣。

But also, you can find prostitutes

當然裡面也有妓女，

and obviously you can do sexual stuff with them,

所以你也可以去嫖妓。

but you can, like, kill them and take your money back.

但是你也可以 完事後殺了她們把錢拿回來。

Yeah, this kid, I remember he ran over a couple of them a few times with his car

我記得我朋友有幾次用車去輾她們，

and he got all these points.

然後得了不少分。

We were, like, 10, I think.

我們那時候才10歲吧。

It felt pretty terrible, actually.

其實感覺不太舒服。

No, I don't think I said anything, I just finished playing and went home.

我記得我沒說什麼， 我玩完之後就回家了。

All right class, so then there were men who had more than just

好的同學們， 我們還有更多跟這個議題，

a passing relationship to this issue. (Laughter)

更切身相關的男性受訪者。 (笑聲)

The next subject described himself as a reformed and remorseful pimp

下一位受訪者形容自己是，

當過皮條客、洗心革面的心靈導師、

turned motivational speaker,

life coach and therapist,

人生導師和治療師。

but if you want to know more about him, you'll have to come to the entire play.

但如果想聽他的故事， 就要到戲院來看囉。

Thank you so much, you beautiful TED audience.

非常感謝， 你們是最棒的 TED 聽眾。

I will see you for "Sell/Buy/Date."

我們「賣/買/日」見。

(Applause)

(掌聲)