Every day you live, you impact the planet | Jane Goodall

翻译人员: 思辰 李 校对人员: sylvia feng

克里斯·安德森： 珍·古道尔博士，欢迎您。

珍·古道尔：谢谢，

我想让大家知道， H 先生（珍的玩偶猩猩）也在这里

Chris Anderson: Dr. Jane Goodall, welcome.

不然这就谈不上是完整的访谈了，

因为大家可都认识 H 先生。

Jane Goodall: Thank you,

and I think, you know, we couldn't have a complete interview

克里斯：你好，H 先生。

unless people know Mr. H is with me,

珍，在您 17 年前的 TED 演讲中，

because everybody knows Mr. H.

您警示了我们， 人类有可能过度挤占大自然。

CA: Hello, Mr. H.

In your TED Talk 17 years ago,

您是否会觉得

you warned us about the dangers of humans crowding out the natural world.

目前的新冠流行疾病， 就有点像大自然对人类的回击？

珍：很显然的一点是， 这些人畜共患的疾病，

Is there any sense in which you feel

that the current pandemic is kind of, nature striking back?

比如新冠和艾滋病，

JG: It's very, very clear that these zoonotic diseases,

还有各种其他的 人类从动物身上感染的疾病，

like the corona and HIV/AIDS

这里面有一部分和环境破坏有关。

当不同种类的动物都失去栖息地后 它们只能挤在一起生活，

and all sorts of other diseases that we catch from animals,

于是有时候， 一些已经有固定宿主的病毒，

that's partly to do with destruction of the environment,

它们已经和宿主共存了几百年，

which, as animals lose habitat, they get crowded together

就在这时被传播到另一物种身上。

and sometimes that means that a virus from a reservoir species,

另外呢，有时候动物 也被迫和人类更密切地接触。

where it's lived harmoniously for maybe hundreds of years,

有时这些动物感染到了病毒，

jumps into a new species,

then you also get animals being pushed into closer contact with humans.

病毒就有可能被传播给人类，

And sometimes one of these animals that has caught a virus can --

并产生新的疾病， 就跟 COVID-19 一样。

you know, provides the opportunity for that virus to jump into people

另外，

人类对动物是极其不尊重的。

and create a new disease, like COVID-19.

人类会捕猎动物、

杀害动物、以动物为食。

And in addition to that,

我们走私动物。

我们将它们送到亚洲的 野生动物市场中。

we are so disrespecting animals.

We hunt them,

we kill them, we eat them,

we traffic them,

它们被关在狭小的笼子里。 那里环境恶劣、拥挤，

we send them off to the wild-animal markets

附近的人被血液和排泄物感染，

in Asia,

是病毒在动物之间传播的理想环境，

where they're in terrible, cramped conditions, in tiny cages,

with people being contaminated with blood and urine and feces,

亦或者从动物传人。

克里斯：我想把时间往回拨一点，

ideal conditions for a virus to spill from an animal to an animal,

因为您的人生故事实在太特别了。

虽然上世纪六十年代有着 可以说比现在更严重的性别歧视

or an animal to a person.

CA: I'd love to just dip backwards in time for a bit,

但您却能够突破这些障碍

because your story is so extraordinary.

成为了世界领先的科学家，

I mean, despite the arguably even more sexist attitudes of the 1960s,

并在黑猩猩研究领域 做出了一系列惊人的发现。

somehow you were able to break through

比如它们对于工具的使用等等

and become one of the world's leading scientists,

您觉得是什么原因，

discovering this astonishing series of facts about chimpanzees,

让您取得了如此突破性的成就？

such as their tool use and so much more.

珍：是这样的， 我生来就喜欢动物

What was it about you, do you think,

而且最重要的是， 我有一个非常支持我的母亲。

that allowed you to make such a breakthrough?

在我床上发现蚯蚓时，她没有发火

JG: Well, the thing is, I was born loving animals,

她只说：“蚯蚓最好 还是待在花园里”

and the most important thing was, I had a very supportive mother.

有一次我失踪了四小时， 她也没有生气。

她报了警， 而我其实一直坐在鸡舍里。

She didn't get mad when she found earthworms in my bed,

因为没人愿意告诉我， 鸡蛋是从鸡身上的哪个洞里出来的。

she just said they better be in the garden.

And she didn't get mad when I disappeared for four hours

我当时并没有梦想成为科学家，

and she called the police, and I was sitting in a hen house,

因为当时的女人 一般不从事这类工作。

because nobody would tell me where the hole was where the egg came out.

其实那时甚至也没有什么男人 做这类工作。

I had no dream of being a scientist,

当时的所有人都在笑我， 除了我的母亲。

她说：“如果你真心想当科学家 那么你一定要竭尽全力

because women didn't do that sort of thing.

In fact, there weren't any man doing it back then, either.

把握住每一个机会。

如果你永不放弃， 也许就能找到方法。”

And everybody laughed at me except Mom,

克里斯：您以某种方法 赢得了黑猩猩们的信赖，

who said, "If you really want this, you're going to have to work awfully hard,

take advantage of every opportunity,

一种前无古人的方法。

if you don't give up, maybe you'll find a way."

CA: And somehow, you were able to kind of, earn the trust of chimpanzees

现在想起来， 那些发现是让您最激动的？

in the way that no one else had.

或者说，有哪些关于黑猩猩的事情 是人类尚未了解的？

Looking back, what were the most exciting moments that you discovered

珍：你说“发现前人 没发现过的东西“，

or what is it that people still don't get about chimpanzees?

去“博得它们的信任”。

但是根本没有人尝试过类似的事情。

说实话就是这样。

JG: Well, the thing is, you say, "See things nobody else had,

简单来说，我使用的技巧

get their trust."

Nobody else had tried.

和我儿时在家附近 研究动物的技巧一样。

Quite honestly.

So, basically, I used the same techniques

坐着，耐心坐着，

不要试图靠得太近，动得太快。

that I had to study the animals around my home when I was a child.

但当时情况很糟糕， 因为我只有 6 个月的经费。

Just sitting, patiently,

你可以想象一下， 当时我要拿到钱有多难。

not trying to get too close too quickly,

作为一个年轻女孩， 连大学学位也没有。

but it was awful, because the money was only for six months.

还是这种干坐在树林里的奇怪工作。

然后你知道嘛，最后

I mean, you can imagine how difficult to get money

我们从一位美国慈善家那里 又得到了 6 个月的经费。

for a young girl with no degree,

to go and do something as bizarre as sitting in a forest.

我知道只要时间足够， 我就能获得黑猩猩的信任

And you know, finally,

we got money for six months from an American philanthropist,

但我真的有时间吗？

从几个星期拉长到几个月， 最后大概 4 个月后

and I knew with time I'd get the chimps' trust,

其中一只黑猩猩开始放下他的恐惧。

but did I have time?

就是在这只黑猩猩身上， 我偶然看到——

And weeks became months and then finally, after about four months,

我当时仍然没有靠太近， 但我有望远镜——

one chimpanzee began to lose his fear,

我看到他在制作工具来抓白蚁。

and it was he that on one occasion I saw --

I still wasn't really close, but I had my binoculars --

虽然当时我并没有那么吃惊，

因为我在书上读过 圈养的黑猩猩能做的事情。

and I saw him using and making tools to fish for termites.

但我知道当时的科学界普遍认为

And although I wasn't terribly surprised,

有且只有人类能使用并制作工具。

because I've read about things captive chimps could do --

我知道路易斯·利基博士 （Louis Leakey）该会有多激动。

but I knew that science believed

也正是这次观察，

that humans, and only humans, used and made tools.

让他能够去联系到《国家地理》。

And I knew how excited [Dr. Louis] Leakey would be.

然后他们说： “好，我们会继续资助这项研究。”

And it was that observation

他们还派了雨果·范·勒维， （Hugo van Lawick）作为摄影兼导演，

that enabled him to go to the National Geographic,

and they said, "OK, we'll continue to support the research,"

来记录我看到的景象。

当时很多科学家不愿相信 黑猩猩使用工具的这件事儿。

and they sent Hugo van Lawick, the photographer-filmmaker,

其实有人还说， 一定是我教给黑猩猩的。

to record what I was seeing.

（笑声）

So a lot of scientists didn't want to believe the tool-using.

我当时根本没法儿靠近黑猩猩， 要真是我教的那就是奇迹了。

总之当他们看到了雨果拍的影片，

In fact, one of them said I must have taught the chimps.

再加上我对黑猩猩行为的记述，

(Laughter)

Since I couldn't get near them, it would have been a miracle.

科学家们就不得不开始转变想法了。

But anyway, once they saw Hugo's film

克里斯：而且从那以后， 很多类似的发现开始涌现。

and that with all my descriptions of their behavior,

这证实了黑猩猩与人类的关系 比人们曾以为的要密切得多。

the scientists had to start changing their minds.

我好像还记得您还曾经说过， 黑猩猩有幽默感。

CA: And since then, numerous other discoveries

您是怎么看出来幽默感的？

that placed chimpanzees much closer to humans than people cared to believe.

珍：他们在玩游戏的时候， 你就能看出来。

I think I saw you say at one point that they have a sense of humor.

有时一个大的和一个小的一起玩，

How have you seen that expressed?

那只大的在树上缠一根藤蔓，

JG: Well, you see it when they're playing games,

每次小的快要抓到藤蔓的时候，

and there's a bigger one playing with a little one,

大的就会把藤蔓拉走。

那只小的就会开始哭，

and he's trailing a vine around a tree.

大的就会哈哈大笑。

And every time the little one is about to catch it,

嗯，所以嘛。

（笑声）

the bigger one pulls it away,

克里斯：珍，您应该还观察到了 一些更叫人担心的事情。

and the little one starts crying

and the big one starts laughing.

So, you know.

比如有时候，黑猩猩的帮派之间

CA: And then, Jane, you observed something much more troubling,

或者部落、族群之间 残酷的暴力冲突。

which was these instances of chimpanzee gangs,

我很好奇您是怎么看这件事的。

tribes, groups, being brutally violent to each other.

然后，这会不会让您有点

对人类产生担忧， 毕竟我们跟黑猩猩很相近。

I'm curious how you process that.

你会不会觉得， 这种暴力就是没法改变的，

And whether it made you, kind of,

就是猿猴类动物的某种天性呢？

I don't know, depressed about us, we're close to them,

珍：显然是的。

did it make you feel that violence is irredeemably

我第一次认识到人类的“邪恶”。

part of all the great apes, somehow?

就是战争（第二次世界大战）结束时

JG: Well, it obviously is.

我看到的那些 关于纳粹大屠杀的照片，

And my first encounter with human, what I call evil,

那些场景深深震撼了我，

那些场景改变了我。

was the end of the war

我记得当时我应该才 10 岁。

and the pictures from the Holocaust.

而关于黑猩猩，

And you know, that really shocked me.

当我意识到他们也有 这种黑暗、残忍的一面时。

That changed who I was.

我就觉得他们和人类很像， 但可能要比我们好一些。

I was 10, I think, at the time.

And when the chimpanzees,

然后我意识到它们比我所以为的

when I realized they have this dark, brutal side,

更像人类。

在那个时候， 也就是 70 年代早期，

I thought they were like us but nicer.

And then I realized they're even more like us

那是很奇怪的。

大家当时都在讨论侵略性，

than I had thought.

大家想知道侵略性 是先天还是后天的。

And at that time, in the early '70s,

这种讨论延伸到了政治方面。

it was very strange,

那真的是一个很奇特的年代。

aggression, there was a big thing

about, is aggression innate or learned.

当时我站出来说：

And it became political.

“不，我认为人的侵略性绝对是

人类固有的一种行为方式。”

And it was, I don't know, it was a very strange time,

and I was coming out, saying,

我还请教了一位受人尊敬的科学家， 问他到底怎么想的。

"No, I think aggression is definitely

part of our inherited repertoire of behaviors."

因为他当时抛开过去的立场，

声称侵略性是后天的。

And I asked a very respected scientist what he really thought,

他说：珍，我不太想说 我真心是怎么想的。

because he was coming out on the clean slate,

就科学的角度而言， 这句话震惊到了我。

aggression is learned,

and he said, "Jane, I'd rather not talk about what I really think."

克里斯：我从小接受的教育要我相信 世界上的所有东西都是光明美好的。

That was a big shock as far as science was concerned for me.

有不少美好的电影， 美丽的蝴蝶、蜜蜂、花朵等等。

CA: I was brought up to believe a world of all things bright and beautiful.

大自然有着如此华丽的风景。

You know, numerous beautiful films of butterflies and bees and flowers,

有很多的环保主义者 似乎都持着这样的观点。

and you know, nature as this gorgeous landscape.

“没错，自然就是纯洁的，美丽的， 而人类则是邪恶的。”

And many environmentalists often seem to take the stance,

但是有时候， 你也会观察到这样的现象。

当你更仔细地观察大自然时，

"Yes, nature is pure, nature is beautiful, humans are bad,"

你就会发现一些让你恐惧的东西。

那么请问您是如何看待大自然的，

but then you have the kind of observations that you see,

我们又应该如何看待大自然呢。

when you actually look at any part of nature in more detail,

珍：大自然是这样的。

you see things to be terrified by, honestly.

如果你想想整个进化的历程。

What do you make of nature, how do you think of it,

how should we think of it?

一个原始的地方会给你 带来一种特殊的感觉。

JG: Nature is, you know,

I mean, you think of the whole spectrum of evolution,

在我年轻的时候， 非洲就是这样一个原始的地方。

and there's something about going to a pristine place,

那时的非洲，到处都是动物。

我从来都不喜欢狮子的猎杀。

and Africa was very pristine when I was young.

但它们必须要猎杀， 那是天性使然。

And there were animals everywhere.

如果它们不去杀动物， 就没法生存下去了。

And I never liked the fact that lions killed,

我觉得人类和动物 很大的区别就是：

they have to, I mean, that's what they do,

动物这么做 是因为它们必须要这么做，

if they didn't kill animals, they would die.

And the big difference between them and us, I think,

但是我们却可以有计划地做事。

is that they do what they do because that's what they have to do.

我们的计划可以是非常不一样的。

我们可能计划砍掉整片森林，

And we can plan to do things.

就因为想要贩卖木材，

Our plans are very different.

或者想要再建一座购物中心，

We can plan to cut down a whole forest,

之类的。

包括人类的的战争、对自然的破坏

because we want to sell the timber,

or because we want to build another shopping mall,

人类邪恶就邪恶在 他们可以人在家中坐，

something like that.

So our destruction of nature and our warfare,

同时计划着对千里之外的人作恶。

这才是恶。

黑猩猩之间确实会有 某种原始的战争，

we're capable of evil because we can sit comfortably

也确实可以很有攻击性。

and plan the torture of somebody far away.

但这些都是暂时的，

That's evil.

是由它们的感觉支配的，

只是一种情绪上的反应。

Chimpanzees have a sort of primitive war,

克里斯：所以您观察到的黑猩猩的智慧

and they can be very aggressive,

but it's of the moment.

It's how they feel.

并不像某些人认为的那么夸张：

It's response to an emotion.

说是接近人类的超级智慧，

CA: So your observation of the sophistication of chimpanzees

能够在脑子里细枝末节地思考未来，

doesn't go as far as what some people would want to say

is the sort of the human superpower,

做长期的计划。

of being able to really simulate the future in our minds in great detail

甚至互相鼓励来实现长期计划。

and make long-term plans.

对于向您一样 和黑猩猩长时间相处的人来说，

And act to encourage each other to achieve those long-term plans.

它们的智慧是一套 根本上不同的技能，

这种技能我们也拥有，

That that feels, even to someone who spent so much time with chimpanzees,

但我们要更明智地去使用。

珍：没错，而且我个人认为

that feels like a fundamentally different skill set

确实有很多人在讨论这个问题，

that we just have to take responsibility for

但是我认为关键在于 人类发展出了一种独特的交流方式，

and use much more wisely than we do.

JG: Yes, and I personally think,

就是你我正在使用的这种。

我们有语言。

I mean, there's a lot of discussion about this,

but I think it's a fact that we developed the way of communication

其实动物的交流是非常复杂的，

比我们过去以为的要复杂。

that you and I are using.

而且黑猩猩、大猩猩和红毛猩猩

And because we have words,

可以学习聋哑人的手语。

I mean, animal communication is way more sophisticated

than we used to think.

但是我们人类从小 就使用自己的语言系统。

And chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans

can learn human sign language of the Deaf.

所以我可以向你抽象地描述 你从来没有听过的东西，

But we sort of grow up speaking whatever language it is.

而黑猩猩则不行。

我们可以教给我们的孩子 一些抽象的东西，

So I can tell you about things that you've never heard of.

And a chimpanzee couldn't do that.

而黑猩猩则不行。

所以虽然黑猩猩 可以做很多聪明的事情，

And we can teach our children about abstract things.

包括大象、乌鸦、章鱼也都可以。

And chimpanzees couldn't do that.

So yes, chimpanzees can do all sorts of clever things,

但是人类却可以设计出火箭， 飞到其他星球去，

and so can elephants and so can crows and so can octopuses,

可以设计出会拍照的小机器人。

人类还创造了一种非凡的沟通方式，

but we design rockets that go off to another planet

让你我可以相隔千里交谈。

and little robots taking photographs,

我年轻的时候

and we've designed this extraordinary way of you and me talking

没有电视，没有手机，

也没有电脑。

in our different parts of the world.

那是一个和现在完全不同的世界。

我只有一支铅笔、一支钢笔、 一本笔记本，仅此而已。

When I was young, when I grew up,

there was no TV, there were no cell phones,

克里斯：我们再回到关于自然的问题，

there was no computers.

因为我经常思考这个问题。

It was such a different world,

I had a pencil, pen and notebook, that was it.

说实话，我也很纠结。

CA: So just going back to this question about nature,

您的很多工作成果， 还有很多我很尊敬的人

because I think about this a lot,

都竭尽全力，不让大自然变得更糟。

and I struggle with this, honestly.

So much of your work, so much of so many people who I respect,

那么我们是否有可能， 或者说是否需要，用健康的心态

is about this passion for trying not to screw up the natural world.

去相应地接受大自然的方方面面，

它可怕的一面，

So is it possible, is it healthy, is it essential, perhaps,

当然还有它好的一面。

to simultaneously accept that many aspects of nature

而一些惊人的方面 是建立在它潜在的恐怖上的。

are terrifying,

but also, I don't know, that it's awesome,

大自然美得令人窒息，

and that some of the awesomeness comes from its potential to be terrifying

而人类也不仅仅是人， 人类也是自然的一部分。

and that it is also just breathtakingly beautiful,

人类自身是不完整的，

除非人类去体会自然， 成为自然的一部分。

and that we cannot be ourselves, because we are part of nature,

珍，帮我想想我该怎么说。 人与自然的关系应该是什么样的？

we cannot be whole

unless we somehow embrace it and are part of it?

珍：我觉得问题在于 随着人类的智慧不断发展，

Help me with the language, Jane, on how that relationship should be.

我们越来越擅长于

改变自然环境，为我们所用。

JG: Well, I think one of the problems is, you know, as we developed our intellect,

人类开辟土地来种植庄稼，

and we became better and better

而这些土地从前是树林、林地。

at modifying the environment for our own use,

当然我们先不讨论这些，

and creating fields and growing crops

但是人类确实有改变自然的能力。

where it used to be forest or woodland,

随着越来越多人搬进城镇，

and you know, we won't go into that now,

人类越来越依靠科技的力量。

but we have this ability to change nature.

And as we've moved more into towns and cities,

许多人感到和自然如此疏远。

成百上千的孩子们

and relied more on technology,

都在市中心长大，

基本上和大自然没有任何接触。

many people feel so divorced from the natural world.

所以眼下城市绿化就非常重要。

And there's hundreds, thousands of children

growing up in inner cities,

已经有人在这方面做了各种实验，

where there basically isn't any nature,

我记得是在芝加哥吧， 我不是很确定。

which is why this movement now to green our cities is so important.

在那里有各种各样的城市空地，

And you know, they've done experiments,

位于城市治安很不稳定的地方。

I think it was in Chicago, I'm not quite sure,

所以他们选了一部分空地做了绿化，

and there were various empty lots

在这些空地上种了 树木、花朵和各种灌木等等。

in a very violent part of town.

So in some of those areas they made it green,

这些地方的犯罪率马上就下降了。

they put trees and flowers and things, shrubs in these vacant lots.

当然在这之后 他们把其他地方也种上了树。

不仅如此，

And the crime rate went right down.

有研究表明

So then of course, they put trees in the other half.

孩子的心理健康 和大自然息息相关。

So it just shows, and also,

there have been studies done showing that children

但正如你所说的 我们是自然的一部分，

really need green nature for good psychological development.

而我们自己却不尊重它。

这对我们的孩子 以及我们孩子的下一代来说

But we are, as you say, part of nature

太糟糕了。

and we disrespect it, as we are,

我们依靠大自然 获取干净的空气和水，

and that is so terrible for our children

我们需要自然界调节气候和降雨。

and our children's children,

看看我们做了什么， 看看这些气候危机。

because we rely on nature for clean air, clean water,

这就是我们的所作所为。

for regulating climate and rainfall.

克里斯：在 30 多年前，

您的工作重心从一名科学家 转变为一名社会活动家，

Look what we've done, look at the climate crisis.

That's us. We did that.

这是为什么？

CA: So a little over 30 years ago,

珍：在 1986 年的科学峰会后 我取得了博士学位。

you made this shift from scientist mainly to activist mainly, I guess.

这个峰会的目的是找出黑猩猩是否

Why?

JG: Conference in 1986, scientific one, I'd got my PhD by then

在不同环境有行为差异。

在整个非洲有 6 个研究基地。

and it was to find out how chimp behavior differed, if it did,

我们就想把这些科学家 集中在一起

研究这件事。

from one environment to another.

想想就很吸引人。

There were six study sites across Africa.

我们还参加了 一场关于自然保护区的会议，

So we thought, let’s bring these scientists together

和一场关于用于医药研究等的 动物圈养的会议。

and explore this,

which was fascinating.

But we also had a session on conservation

这 2 场会议 对我造成的冲击太大。

and a session on conditions in some captive situations

以至于我以一名科学家的心态前去，

like medical research.

会议结束时， 我成了一名社会活动家。

And those two sessions were so shocking to me.

我没有刻意做这个决定， 只是我的心态有了变化。

克里斯： 所以在过去的 34 年里，

I went to the conference a a scientist,

and I left as an activist.

您不知疲倦地宣传

I didn't make the decision, something happened inside me.

提倡改善人与自然的关系。

CA: So you spent the last 34 years

这应该是段怎样的关系呢？

sort of tirelessly campaigning for a better relationship

between people and nature.

珍：你又一次点明了这些问题。

What should that relationship look like?

人们必须要有生存的空间。

JG: Well, you know, again you come up with all these problems.

但是我认为问题在于

在富足的社会中

People have to have space to live.

我们变得太过贪婪。

谁需要 4 栋房子加一大块草场？

But I think the problem is

that we've become, in the affluent societies,

为什么我们还要建更多的商场？

too greedy.

I mean, honestly, who needs four houses with huge grounds?

诸如此类。

我们只盯着短期的经济效益，

And why do we need yet another shopping mall?

金钱成为了我们崇拜的神明。

And so on and so on.

So we are looking at short-term economic benefit,

同时我们也失去了和自然界 所有的精神链接。

所以我们在追寻的是 短期的经济利益或者权力，

money has become a sort of god to worship,

as we lose all spiritual connection with the natural world.

而不是这个星球的健康

And so we're looking for short-term monetary gain, or power,

和我们孩子的未来。

人类对这些事情毫不关心，

rather than the health of the planet

这就是我从未停止努力的原因。

and the future of our children.

克里斯：我是说， 在您专门研究的黑猩猩保护方面，

We don't seem to care about that anymore.

您将人作为主体，

That's why I'll never stop fighting.

CA: I mean, in your work specifically on chimpanzee conservation,

让当地人参与其中。

这是否奏效呢？

you've made it practice to put people at the center of that,

如果我们想成功保护地球，

这是否是其中的一个重要部分？

local people, to engage them.

珍：在那次著名的会议之后，

How has that worked

我觉得我得了解更多关于 黑猩猩在非洲大陆消失的原因。

and do you think that's an essential idea

if we're to succeed in protecting the planet?

丛林中到底发生了什么？

JG: You know, after that famous conference,

所以我凑了点钱 访问了周边 6 个国家。

I thought, well, I must learn more about why chimps are vanishing in Africa

我了解了一些黑猩猩所面临的问题：

and what's happening to the forest.

So I got a bit of money together and went out to visit six range countries.

猎获野味， 野生动物交易，

捕兽器的使用，

And learned a lot about the problems faced by chimps, you know,

人口持续增长

导致需要更多土地 用于耕种、养牛和建造村庄。

hunting for bushmeat and the live animal trade

and caught in snares

and human populations growing and needing more land

但我也了解到了 人类所面临的许多问题：

for their crops and their cattle and their villages.

绝对贫困，健康问题，教育的缺乏，

But I was also learning about the plight faced by so many people.

土地侵蚀。

一次我飞过贡贝国家公园时， 我想到这里曾经是

The absolute poverty, the lack of health and education,

横跨非洲及西海岸的 赤道森林带的一部分。

the degradation of the land.

And it came to a head when I flew over the tiny Gombe National Park.

到了 1990 年，

这里就只剩一块小小的林地， 小小的国家公园。

It had been part of this equatorial forest belt right across Africa

看到这座山丘 四面八方都是光秃秃的，

to the west coast,

真的让我很难受。

and in 1990,

如果我们不做点什么，

it was just this little island of forest, just tiny national park.

不帮助人们找到 不破坏环境的生活方式的话，

All around, the hills were bare.

And that's when it hit me.

我们不可能保护黑猩猩。

If we don't do something

所以珍妮·古道尔研究所展开了 坦噶尼喀流域造林和教育计划。

to help the people find ways of living

without destroying their environment,

我们叫这个项目“TACARE”。

we can't even try to save the chimps.

它采用了基于社区的保护方法，

So the Jane Goodall Institute began this program "Take Care,"

非常一体化。

我们现在把一些保护工具

we call it "TACARE."

And it's our method of community-based conservation,

交到居民的手上。

因为大多数坦桑尼亚的黑猩猩 都不在保护区内，

totally holistic.

And we've now put the tools of conservation

它们都在镇上的林地里。

into the hand of the villagers,

居民们因此开始 了解他们林子的健康情况。

because most Tanzanian wild chimps are not in protected areas,

他们开始认识到

they're just in the village forest reserves.

保护森林不仅仅关乎野生动物，

And so, they now go and measure the health of their forest.

还关乎他们自己的未来。

他们需要这片林子。

They've understood now

他们应该为其自豪。

that protecting the forest isn't just for wildlife,

有些志愿者们到了工作坊里，

学会了怎么使用智能手机。

it's their own future.

That they need the forest.

他们学会了怎么把项目的记录 上传到平台和云端。

And they're very proud.

The volunteers go to workshops,

于是整个过程变得非常透明化。

they learn how to use smartphones,

they learn how to upload into platform and the cloud.

树木重返大地，

再也不是荒山。

他们都同意 在贡贝附近设立缓冲区，

And so it's all transparent.

And the trees have come back,

于是黑猩猩们享有了 比 1990 年还多的森林。

there's no bare hills anymore.

They agreed to make a buffer zone around Gombe,

他们开辟了森林之间的廊道，

将分散的黑猩猩群落聚集起来， 减少近亲繁殖的现象。

so the chimps have more forest than they did in 1990.

这方法非常有效， 接着在其他的 6 个国家也都奏效了。

They're opening up corridors of forest

to link the scattered chimp groups so that you don't get too much inbreeding.

同样的方法。

克里斯：您一直在全球各地 不知疲倦地发声，

So yes, it's worked, and it's in six other countries now.

不断地旅行，

Same thing.

到处宣讲，激励别人。

CA: I mean, you've been this extraordinary tireless voice, all around the world,

您是怎么找到做这些事的动力，

just traveling so much,

speaking everywhere, inspiring people everywhere.

怎么找到激情的？

因为这些工作确实很累人。

How on earth do you find the energy,

每次与这么多人会面，

真的很让人浑身疲惫，

you know, the fire to do that,

但您还是坚持在做这些事。

because that is exhausting to do,

珍，您是怎么做到的？

every meeting with lots of people,

珍：我猜我很固执吧，不轻言放弃。

it is just physically exhausting,

and yet, here you are, still doing it.

我不会放纵这些 破坏森林的大公司 CEO 们，

How are you doing this, Jane?

JG: Well, I suppose, you know, I'm obstinate, I don't like giving up,

也不会容忍那些 废除环保政策的政治家们。

but I'm not going to let these CEOs of big companies

who are destroying the forests,

大家都知道我在指谁。

or the politicians who are unraveling all the protections that were put in place

我会继续和他们抗争的。

我真切地关心野生动物。

by previous presidents,

and you know who I'm talking about.

我热诚地看待整个大自然。

And you know, I'll go on fighting,

我爱森林，森林的毁坏让我心碎。

I care about, I'm passionate about the wildlife.

我又是如此关心孩子们，

I'm passionate about the natural world.

但人们正在偷走孩子们的未来。

I love forests, it hurts me to see them damaged.

我不会放弃的。

我猜我被善意祝福了吧， 这是我的礼物。

And I care passionately about children.

And we're stealing their future.

我发现我还拥有一份礼物，

And I'm not going to give up.

So I guess I'm blessed with good genes, that's a gift,

那就是沟通能力。

无论是书写还是演讲，

你知道的，

and the other gift, which I discovered I had,

如果我这样四处奔走没有起作用，

was communication,

那为什么每次我主持讲座时，

whether it's writing or speaking.

And so, you know,

都有人跑上来说：

“我都已经放弃了， 但是您鼓舞了我。

if going around like this wasn't working,

我保证我会为保护环境 贡献自己的一份力的。”

but every time I do a lecture,

我们现在在 65 个国家开展了 叫做“根与芽”的青少年项目。

people come up and say,

"Well, I had given up, but you've inspired me,

该项目正在迅速发展。

I promise to do my bit."

什么年龄的参与者都有。

我们挑选了各种助力人类， 动物以及环境的项目。

And we have our youth program "Roots and Shoots" now in 65 countries

大家撸起袖子付诸行动。

and growing fast,

他们的眼睛里闪烁着光芒，

all ages,

all choosing projects to help people, animals, the environment,

想要告诉珍博士 他们都做出了什么行动，

怎样让世界变得更加美好。

rolling up their sleeves and taking action.

我怎么能让他们失望呢？

And you know, they look at you with shining eyes,

克里斯：当您展望这个星球的未来时，

wanting to tell Dr. Jane what they've been doing

什么东西最让您担忧？

to make the world a better place.

如今的什么状况让您最焦虑？

How can I let them down?

CA: I mean, as you look at the planet's future,

珍：或许是我们有限的时间吧。

what worries you most, actually,

what scares you most about where we're at?

我们得尽快开始治愈地球的创伤，

JG: Well, the fact that we have a small window of time, I believe,

减缓气候变化的脚步。

时间正步步紧逼。

when we can at least start healing some of the harm

由于 COVID-19 导致的封锁， 我们在世界各地已经看到了

and slowing down climate change.

But it is closing,

城市也能有晴朗的天空。

and we've seen what happens with the lockdown around the world

人们从未有过地 呼吸到了新鲜的空气，

because of COVID-19:

仰望着闪烁的星夜。

clear skies over cities,

他们从来没有好好珍视过。

some people breathing clean air that they've never breathed before

你明白的。

所以我最担心的

and looking up at the shining skies at night,

是如何召集足够的人。

which they've never seen properly before.

And you know,

大家都是明白人， 但大家都很少付诸行动。

so what worries me most

我们如何让足够的人行动起来？

克里斯：美国国家地理协会 刚刚推出了一部关于您的影片，

is how to get enough people,

people understand, but they're not taking action,

how to get enough people to take action?

重点讲述了您 近 60 年来所做的工作。

CA: National Geographic just launched this extraordinary film about you,

这部影片叫做 《珍·古道尔：点燃希望》。

这份希望是什么呢？

highlighting your work over six decades.

珍：希望啊。

年轻人就是我最大的希望。

It's titled "Jane Goodall: The Hope."

在中国时，大家找到我说：

“我当然关心环境，

So what is the hope, Jane?

我在小学时 就参与了‘根与芽’项目。”

JG: Well, the hope,

my greatest hope is all these young people.

“根与芽”灌输着这种价值观。

I mean, in China, people will come up and say,

孩子们是如此热情， 他们一了解到环境问题

"Well, of course I care about the environment,

I was in 'Roots and Shoots' in primary school."

And you know, we have "Roots and Shoots" just hanging on to the values

就感受到了行动的号召。

他们清理溪流， 人道扑杀入侵物种。

and they're so enthusiastic once they know the problems

他们很有想法，

and they're empowered to take action,

而且拥有那样的聪明才智。

they are clearing the streams, removing invasive species humanely.

我们在想法设法的创造出

And they have so many ideas.

And then there's, you know, this extraordinary intellect of ours.

能帮助我们与自然和谐共处的技术。

我们要想想各自的生活，

We're beginning to use it to come up with technology

我们每天所做的事情导致的结果。

that really will help us to live in greater harmony,

我们买了什么， 而这些东西又从哪里来？

这些商品是如何制造的？

and in our individual lives,

会不会危害环境？会不会残害动物？

let's think about the consequences of what we do each day.

售价如此便宜 会不会是因为非法使用了童工？

What do we buy, where did it come from,

要做出有道德的选择。

how was it made?

但如果你的生活贫瘠， 道德的选择往往很难。

Did it harm the environment, was it cruel to animals?

Is it cheap because of child slave labor?

但说到底， 人们有着不屈不挠的精神，

直面似乎不可能解决的事情的精神。

Make ethical choices.

Which you can't do if you're living in poverty, by the way.

人们不会放弃。

如果你有这样的精神， 你就不可能放弃。

And then finally, this indomitable spirit

of people who tackle what seems impossible

但总有我也对抗不了的东西。

and won't give up.

我对抗不了腐败。

You can't give up when you have those ...

我对抗不了军政权和独裁者。

But you know, there are things that I can't fight.

I can't fight corruption.

我只能努力做我能做到的事。

I can't fight military regimes and dictators.

但如果我们都力所能及地 尽一份力的话，

这种团结的力量最终会获胜的。

So I can only do what I can do,

克里斯：珍，最后一个问题。

and if we all do the bits that we can do,

如果现在有一个想法，一种念头。

surely that makes a whole that eventually will win out.

您可以在每个观众心中 灌输一个理念的话。

CA: So, last question, Jane.

那会是什么？

If there was one idea, one thought,

珍：你要记住，你活着的每一天

one seed you could plant in the minds of everyone watching this,

都在影响这颗星球。

what would that be?

你无法改变这点。

JG: You know, just remember that every day you live,

除非你生活在极端贫困之中，

you make an impact on the planet.

你至少能够选择对星球 产生什么样的影响，

You can't help making an impact.

其实即便在贫困中你也有选择。

And at least, unless you're living in extreme poverty,

但当我们更富裕的时候， 我们有更好的选择。

you have a choice as to what sort of impact you make.

如果我们都做出道德的选择，

Even in poverty you have a choice,

那么我们会开始推动世界发展，

but when we are more affluent, we have a greater choice.

走向一个对于我们的子孙来说 不那么绝望的世界。

And if we all make ethical choices,

then we start moving towards a world

我觉得这是每个人都要做的事。

that will be not quite so desperate to leave to our great-grandchildren.

因为很多人知道正在发生什么，

That's, I think, something for everybody.

但是他们感到无助又绝望， 也不知道该做什么。

所以他们什么也不做， 渐渐变得无动于衷。

Because a lot of people understand what's happening,

冷漠是一个巨大的威胁。

but they feel helpless and hopeless, and what can they do,

克里斯·安德森： 珍·古道尔博士，哇。

so they do nothing and they become apathetic.

我真心感谢您不平凡的一生，

And that is a huge danger, apathy.

感谢您所做的事情，

CA: Dr. Jane Goodall, wow.

感谢你您时间给我们分享。

I really want to thank you for your extraordinary life,

谢谢您。

珍·古道尔：谢谢大家。

（音乐）

for all that you've done

and for spending this time with us now.

Thank you.

JG: Thank you.