Danny Hillis: Understanding cancer through proteomics

57,414 views ・ 2011-03-16

TED


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譯者: Joan Liu 審譯者: Wang-Ju Tsai
00:15
I admit that I'm a little bit nervous here
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我承認我有一點點緊張,
00:18
because I'm going to say some radical things,
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因為我要說一些極端的東西,
00:21
about how we should think about cancer differently,
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談要如何以不同的角度看癌症,
00:24
to an audience that contains a lot of people
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但在座有很多人
00:26
who know a lot more about cancer than I do.
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卻比我還瞭解癌症。
00:30
But I will also contest that I'm not as nervous as I should be
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但我也要說我其實沒有我應當的那麼緊張
00:33
because I'm pretty sure I'm right about this.
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因為我很確定我是對的。
00:35
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
00:37
And that this, in fact, will be
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而且這個,事實上,
00:39
the way that we treat cancer in the future.
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會是我們未來治療癌症的方法。
00:43
In order to talk about cancer,
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要談癌症,
00:45
I'm going to actually have to --
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我們必須先談這個--
00:48
let me get the big slide here.
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讓我用這張大投影片。
00:53
First, I'm going to try to give you a different perspective of genomics.
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首先,我要讓你們從另一個角度看基因體。
00:56
I want to put it in perspective of the bigger picture
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我想要以一個更廣的角度
00:58
of all the other things that are going on --
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來看整件事情,
01:01
and then talk about something you haven't heard so much about, which is proteomics.
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然後談一下你們沒那麼常聽到的東西,也就是蛋白質體學。
01:04
Having explained those,
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解釋了這些後,
01:06
that will set up for what I think will be a different idea
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我便可以談我認為和現今不同的
01:09
about how to go about treating cancer.
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治療癌症的方式。
01:11
So let me start with genomics.
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所以讓我從基因體講起。
01:13
It is the hot topic.
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它是個熱門的話題。
01:15
It is the place where we're learning the most.
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它是我們學到最多的地方。
01:17
This is the great frontier.
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它是先驅。
01:19
But it has its limitations.
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但它有它的極限。
01:22
And in particular, you've probably all heard the analogy
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尤其是:你們可能聽過
01:25
that the genome is like the blueprint of your body,
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基因就像是身體的藍圖。
01:28
and if that were only true, it would be great,
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如果這是正確的,那就太好了,
01:30
but it's not.
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但這不是正確的。
01:32
It's like the parts list of your body.
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基因像是你身體組成表。
01:34
It doesn't say how things are connected,
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它沒有解釋這中間如何串聯,
01:36
what causes what and so on.
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什麼引起什麼之類的事。
01:39
So if I can make an analogy,
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所以如果我要來比喻,
01:41
let's say that you were trying to tell the difference
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想像你要分辨一個好餐廳、
01:43
between a good restaurant, a healthy restaurant
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一個健康的餐廳
01:46
and a sick restaurant,
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和一個壞餐廳,
01:48
and all you had was the list of ingredients
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而且你所有的只是一張他們庫存的
01:50
that they had in their larder.
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食材表。
01:53
So it might be that, if you went to a French restaurant
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所以有可能是,你去一家法式餐廳
01:56
and you looked through it and you found
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你發現他們只有人造黃油
01:58
they only had margarine and they didn't have butter,
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沒有奶油,
02:00
you could say, "Ah, I see what's wrong with them.
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你會說:「喔!我知道哪裡出錯了。
02:02
I can make them healthy."
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我可以讓他們變健康。」
02:04
And there probably are special cases of that.
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而且有可能有一些像那樣的特殊例子。
02:06
You could certainly tell the difference
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你當然可以從他們食品室有的東西中
02:08
between a Chinese restaurant and a French restaurant
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輕易分辨
02:10
by what they had in a larder.
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中式餐廳和法式餐廳。
02:12
So the list of ingredients does tell you something,
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所以食材表是能夠告訴你一些東西的,
02:15
and sometimes it tells you something that's wrong.
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而且有時候會告訴你哪裡出問題了。
02:19
If they have tons of salt,
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如果他們有很多鹽,
02:21
you might guess they're using too much salt, or something like that.
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你可能會猜他們放太多鹽之類的。
02:24
But it's limited,
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但知道的是有限的,
02:26
because really to know if it's a healthy restaurant,
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因為要真正知道一家餐聽好壞,
02:28
you need to taste the food, you need to know what goes on in the kitchen,
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你需要吃吃看他們做的食物,你需要知道廚房中發生了什麼事,
02:31
you need the product of all of those ingredients.
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你需要食材的最終產物。
02:34
So if I look at a person
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所以你如果看一個人,
02:36
and I look at a person's genome, it's the same thing.
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看他的基因,這是相同的道理。
02:39
The part of the genome that we can read
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我們看得懂的基因部份
02:41
is the list of ingredients.
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就像是食材表。
02:43
And so indeed,
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所以,
02:45
there are times when we can find ingredients
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是有些時候我們可以看到
02:47
that [are] bad.
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不好的食材。
02:49
Cystic fibrosis is an example of a disease
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囊胞性纖維症就是一個
02:51
where you just have a bad ingredient and you have a disease,
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你可以看組成就知道會有疾病,
02:54
and we can actually make a direct correspondence
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且我們可以直接建立
02:57
between the ingredient and the disease.
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這些組成和疾病的關連。
03:00
But most things, you really have to know what's going on in the kitchen,
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但大部份時候,你需要知道在廚房發生了什麼事,
03:03
because, mostly, sick people used to be healthy people --
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因為,大部份生病的人之前是健康的,
03:05
they have the same genome.
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但他們有一樣的基因組。
03:07
So the genome really tells you much more
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所以基因組只是告訴你
03:09
about predisposition.
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預先的定位。
03:11
So what you can tell
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所以你可以知道的是
03:13
is you can tell the difference between an Asian person and a European person
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你可以從組成成分表中
03:15
by looking at their ingredients list.
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看出亞州人和歐洲人的差別。
03:17
But you really for the most part can't tell the difference
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但大部份的時候你沒有辦法看出
03:20
between a healthy person and a sick person --
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一個健康的人和不健康的人的差別--
03:23
except in some of these special cases.
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除了在很特殊的例子上。
03:25
So why all the big deal
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既然如此,為什麼基因學
03:27
about genetics?
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這麼重要?
03:29
Well first of all,
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首先,
03:31
it's because we can read it, which is fantastic.
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我們可以讀它,這很棒。
03:34
It is very useful in certain circumstances.
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在某些情況下非常有用。
03:37
It's also the great theoretical triumph
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它也是生物理論上
03:40
of biology.
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非常重要的榮耀。
03:42
It's the one theory
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這是一個生物學家們
03:44
that the biologists ever really got right.
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一直想搞對的理論。
03:46
It's fundamental to Darwin
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基因同時也是是達爾文
03:48
and Mendel and so on.
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和孟德爾和其他人理論的基礎。
03:50
And so it's the one thing where they predicted a theoretical construct.
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所以它是唯一一個他們預測且建構的理論。
03:54
So Mendel had this idea of a gene
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孟德爾有點抽象地
03:56
as an abstract thing,
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說明基因這個概念。
03:59
and Darwin built a whole theory
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然後達爾文在這個基礎上
04:01
that depended on them existing,
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建立了一整個理論。
04:03
and then Watson and Crick
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然後華生和克力克
04:05
actually looked and found one.
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真的去找且找到了基因。
04:07
So this happens in physics all the time.
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這在物理學上常常發生。
04:09
You predict a black hole,
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你預期會有黑洞,
04:11
and you look out the telescope and there it is, just like you said.
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你去找然後透過望遠鏡去看,真的找到了。
04:14
But it rarely happens in biology.
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但在生物上這很少發生。
04:16
So this great triumph -- it's so good,
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所以這個大榮耀--重要到
04:19
there's almost a religious experience
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幾乎成爲生物學上的
04:21
in biology.
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信仰教條。
04:23
And Darwinian evolution
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且達爾文演化論
04:25
is really the core theory.
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就是核心理論。
04:30
So the other reason it's been very popular
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另外一個讓基因這麼受喜愛的原因是
04:32
is because we can measure it, it's digital.
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我們可以測量它。它是數位的。
04:35
And in fact,
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事實上,
04:37
thanks to Kary Mullis,
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感謝Kary Mullis,
04:39
you can basically measure your genome in your kitchen
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你基本上只需要比你廚房再多一點用具
04:43
with a few extra ingredients.
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就可以測量你的基因組。
04:46
So for instance, by measuring the genome,
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舉例來說,透過測量基因組,
04:49
we've learned a lot about how we're related to other kinds of animals
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我們從其間的相似性
04:53
by the closeness of our genome,
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學到很多關於我們和其他動物的關係、
04:56
or how we're related to each other -- the family tree,
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或是我們跟其他人的關係--像家族表,
04:59
or the tree of life.
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或是生命表。
05:01
There's a huge amount of information about the genetics
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僅僅只是比對基因間的相似情況,
05:04
just by comparing the genetic similarity.
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我們可以得到很多資訊。
05:07
Now of course, in medical application,
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當然在醫學上
05:09
that is very useful
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這是非常有用的,
05:11
because it's the same kind of information
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因為醫生可以得到
05:14
that the doctor gets from your family medical history --
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與瞭解家庭病史相同的資訊。
05:17
except probably,
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事實上,
05:19
your genome knows much more about your medical history than you do.
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你的基因比你還瞭解你的家庭病史。
05:22
And so by reading the genome,
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所以利用解讀基因組,
05:24
we can find out much more about your family than you probably know.
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我們可以瞭解更多你不知道的關於你的家庭的資訊。
05:27
And so we can discover things
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我們可以發現一些
05:29
that probably you could have found
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你如果看夠多你的親戚
05:31
by looking at enough of your relatives,
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將可能會找到的資訊,
05:33
but they may be surprising.
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但這些可能是驚人的。
05:36
I did the 23andMe thing
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我做了「二十三和我」(基因檢測)的測驗,
05:38
and was very surprised to discover that I am fat and bald.
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且驚人地發現我是又胖又禿頭的。
05:41
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
05:48
But sometimes you can learn much more useful things about that.
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但有時候你會學到一些更有用的東西。
05:51
But mostly
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但大部份時候
05:54
what you need to know, to find out if you're sick,
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當你生病時你需要知道的
05:56
is not your predispositions,
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不是你的體質,
05:58
but it's actually what's going on in your body right now.
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而是現在在你身上發生了什麼事。
06:01
So to do that, what you really need to do,
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要瞭解這個,你需要做的是
06:03
you need to look at the things
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你需要看這些基因
06:05
that the genes are producing
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製造的東西
06:07
and what's happening after the genetics,
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和基因背後發生的事情。
06:09
and that's what proteomics is about.
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而那正是蛋白質體學。
06:11
Just like genome mixes the study of all the genes,
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就像基因體學是研究所有的基因
06:14
proteomics is the study of all the proteins.
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蛋白質體學就是研究所有的蛋白質。
06:17
And the proteins are all of the little things in your body
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蛋白質是所有在你身上
06:19
that are signaling between the cells --
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在不同細胞間傳遞訊息的小東西。
06:22
actually, the machines that are operating --
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而細胞則是體內工作的機器。
06:24
that's where the action is.
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那是事情的發生地。
06:26
Basically, a human body
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基本上,
06:29
is a conversation going on,
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人體是一場正在進行的對話,
06:32
both within the cells and between the cells,
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是正在細胞內和細胞間進行的對話,
06:35
and they're telling each other to grow and to die,
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細胞互相告訴對方該生長還是死亡。
06:38
and when you're sick,
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當你生病時,
06:40
something's gone wrong with that conversation.
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這樣的對話出現問題。
06:42
And so the trick is --
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所以訣竅是--
06:44
unfortunately, we don't have an easy way to measure these
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不幸的,我們沒有像測量基因一樣
06:47
like we can measure the genome.
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有個簡單的方式可以測量蛋白質。
06:49
So the problem is that measuring --
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所以測量是個大問題--
06:52
if you try to measure all the proteins, it's a very elaborate process.
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如果你試著測量所有的蛋白質,這是非常複雜的過程。
06:55
It requires hundreds of steps,
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需要好幾百個步驟,
06:57
and it takes a long, long time.
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而且需要花很久很久的時間。
06:59
And it matters how much of the protein it is.
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而且蛋白質含量也有關係的
07:01
It could be very significant that a protein changed by 10 percent,
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十分之一的含量差異可以有嚴重的影響,
07:04
so it's not a nice digital thing like DNA.
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所以不是像DNA那樣有數位性的。
07:07
And basically our problem is somebody's in the middle
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而且基本上我們的問題是
07:09
of this very long stage,
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如果有人在一個很長的過程的中間,
07:11
they pause for just a moment,
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他們停下來一下下,
07:13
and they leave something in an enzyme for a second,
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且他們把東西留在生物酶中一秒鐘,
07:15
and all of a sudden all the measurements from then on
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突然所有從那時後開始的測量值
07:17
don't work.
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就都不對了。
07:19
And so then people get very inconsistent results
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當他們這麼做時,
07:21
when they do it this way.
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人們會得到非常不一致的結果。
07:23
People have tried very hard to do this.
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有人很努力做這個。
07:25
I tried this a couple of times
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我試了幾次,
07:27
and looked at this problem and gave up on it.
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看了這個問題然後放棄。
07:29
I kept getting this call from this oncologist
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我一直接到一個癌症學家的電話
07:31
named David Agus.
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他叫大維艾格斯。
07:33
And Applied Minds gets a lot of calls
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在Applied Minds的人常常接到很多電話,
07:36
from people who want help with their problems,
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來自於需要幫忙解決他們的問題的人,
07:38
and I didn't think this was a very likely one to call back,
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而我不覺得這個是我會想要回電的人,
07:41
so I kept on giving him to the delay list.
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所以我一直把他放到晚點再回的名單。
07:44
And then one day,
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直到有一天,
07:46
I get a call from John Doerr, Bill Berkman
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我接到約翰杜爾、比爾貝客門、
07:48
and Al Gore on the same day
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高爾打來的電話,
07:50
saying return David Agus's phone call.
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都叫我要回大衛艾格斯的電話。
07:52
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
07:54
So I was like, "Okay. This guy's at least resourceful."
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所以我想「好吧,至少這個人人脈豐富。」
07:56
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
08:00
So we started talking,
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所以我們開始談,
08:02
and he said, "I really need a better way to measure proteins."
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然後他說:「我們很需要一個更好的測量蛋白質的方式。」
08:05
I'm like, "Looked at that. Been there.
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我說:「我都看過了、做過了。
08:07
Not going to be easy."
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一點都不容易。」
08:09
He's like, "No, no. I really need it.
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他說:「不不,我真的很需要。
08:11
I mean, I see patients dying every day
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我的意思是,我每天看到病人死亡
08:15
because we don't know what's going on inside of them.
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因為我們不知道病人體內發生什麼事。
08:18
We have to have a window into this."
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我們必須想個辦法。」
08:20
And he took me through
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然後他給我看一些例子
08:22
specific examples of when he really needed it.
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和為什麼他很需要這個技術。
08:25
And I realized, wow, this would really make a big difference,
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然後我瞭解到,哇,如果我們做得到的話
08:27
if we could do it,
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這會是很大的改變。
08:29
and so I said, "Well, let's look at it."
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所以我說:「好,讓我們來看看。」
08:31
Applied Minds has enough play money
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Applied Minds有一些閒錢
08:33
that we can go and just work on something
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可以讓我們不需要跟任何人要錢獲取得許可
08:35
without getting anybody's funding or permission or anything.
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就可以做些事情。
08:38
So we started playing around with this.
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所以我們開始試試這件事情。
08:40
And as we did it, we realized this was the basic problem --
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當我們在做的時候,我們瞭解到這是很基本的問題--
08:43
that taking the sip of coffee --
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就像喝一口咖啡--
08:45
that there were humans doing this complicated process
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就是有很多人在做這個複雜的事
08:47
and that what really needed to be done
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但事實上我們需要的
08:49
was to automate this process like an assembly line
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是自動化的流程
08:52
and build robots
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然後建造機器人
08:54
that would measure proteomics.
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來測量蛋白質體。
08:56
And so we did that,
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所以我們這麼做了。
08:58
and working with David,
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與大衛合作,
09:00
we made a little company called Applied Proteomics eventually,
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我們創立了一個叫做「Applied Proteomics」的公司,
09:03
which makes this robotic assembly line,
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專門建造這樣的機器流程線,
09:06
which, in a very consistent way, measures the protein.
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這樣可以很穩定的測量蛋白質。
09:09
And I'll show you what that protein measurement looks like.
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且我會給你們看蛋白質測量是怎麼做的。
09:13
Basically, what we do
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基本上,我們做的是
09:15
is we take a drop of blood
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我們從病人身上
09:17
out of a patient,
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取一滴血,
09:19
and we sort out the proteins
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然後我們將這滴血中的蛋白質
09:21
in the drop of blood
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依照它們的
09:23
according to how much they weigh,
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重量、
09:25
how slippery they are,
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它們的光滑程度來分類,
09:27
and we arrange them in an image.
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然後將它們放在一張圖上。
09:30
And so we can look at literally
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然後我們可以同時
09:32
hundreds of thousands of features at once
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看到這滴血當中
09:34
out of that drop of blood.
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千百種的特色。
09:36
And we can take a different one tomorrow,
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隔天我們可以取另一滴血,
09:38
and you will see your proteins tomorrow will be different --
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然後你會發現你隔天的蛋白質是不一樣的--
09:40
they'll be different after you eat or after you sleep.
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蛋白質在你吃過食物或睡過覺後都會不一樣。
09:43
They really tell us what's going on there.
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他們真的告訴我們發生了什麼事。
09:46
And so this picture,
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所以這張圖,
09:48
which looks like a big smudge to you,
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對你們來說看起來像是一團大污點,
09:50
is actually the thing that got me really thrilled about this
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但卻是讓我對這件事感到興奮的原因
09:54
and made me feel like we were on the right track.
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而且讓我們覺得我們是往對的方向前進。
09:56
So if I zoom into that picture,
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所以如果我們把這張圖放大,
09:58
I can just show you what it means.
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我可以給你們看這是什麼意思。
10:00
We sort out the proteins -- from left to right
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我們整理了這些蛋白質--從左至右
10:03
is the weight of the fragments that we're getting,
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是這些片段的重量。
10:06
and from top to bottom is how slippery they are.
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由上至下則是他們的光滑程度。
10:09
So we're zooming in here just to show you a little bit of it.
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所以我們把他放大讓你們可以看清楚一些。
10:12
And so each of these lines
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這邊每一條線
10:14
represents some signal that we're getting out of a piece of a protein.
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就是我們在看一個蛋白質時得到的訊號。
10:17
And you can see how the lines occur
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你們可以看到這些線是一群一群的
10:19
in these little groups of bump, bump, bump, bump, bump.
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有蹦蹦蹦蹦蹦好幾條線。
10:23
And that's because we're measuring the weight so precisely that --
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這是因為我們很精準的測量重量--
10:26
carbon comes in different isotopes,
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碳有不同的同位素,
10:28
so if it has an extra neutron on it,
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所以如果有多一個中子,
10:31
we actually measure it as a different chemical.
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我們就會測出是不一樣的物質。
10:35
So we're actually measuring each isotope as a different one.
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也就是說我們把每一個同位素當作不一樣的來測量。
10:38
And so that gives you an idea
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所以這給你們一個
10:41
of how exquisitely sensitive this is.
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這個測量有多精密的概念。
10:43
So seeing this picture
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所以看這張圖
10:45
is sort of like getting to be Galileo
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有點像伽利略
10:47
and looking at the stars
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在看星星一樣,
10:49
and looking through the telescope for the first time,
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就像他第一次透過望遠鏡看,
10:51
and suddenly you say, "Wow, it's way more complicated than we thought it was."
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然後你突然說「哇!這比我們想像的複雜許多。」
10:54
But we can see that stuff out there
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但我們可以看到這些東西
10:56
and actually see features of it.
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而且知道他們的特色。
10:58
So this is the signature out of which we're trying to get patterns.
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這就有點像是從各種簽名中找出規律。
11:01
So what we do with this
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我們拿這些資訊做的是,
11:03
is, for example, we can look at two patients,
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舉例來說,我們看兩個病人,
11:05
one that responded to a drug and one that didn't respond to a drug,
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一個對某種藥有反應,另一個則沒反應。
11:08
and ask, "What's going on differently
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然後問:「這兩者身體之間
11:10
inside of them?"
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有什麼不同?」
11:12
And so we can make these measurements precisely enough
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所以我們可以讓這樣的測驗夠精準到
11:15
that we can overlay two patients and look at the differences.
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讓我們可以把兩個病人的資料疊在一起然後看出不同。
11:18
So here we have Alice in green
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這裡綠色是愛莉絲
11:20
and Bob in red.
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紅色是包伯。
11:22
We overlay them. This is actual data.
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我們把他們倆疊在一起。這是實際的數據。
11:25
And you can see, mostly it overlaps and it's yellow,
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你們可以看到,大部份相交呈黃色,
11:28
but there's some things that just Alice has
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但有些是只有愛莉絲有,
11:30
and some things that just Bob has.
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而有些只有包伯有。
11:32
And if we find a pattern of things
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如果我們可以有類似的東西
11:35
of the responders to the drug,
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來看對藥物有反應的人,
11:38
we see that in the blood,
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我們可以看到血液中,
11:40
they have the condition
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他們有一些特別的狀況
11:42
that allows them to respond to this drug.
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讓他們可以對藥物有反應。
11:44
We might not even know what this protein is,
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我們可能根本不知道這個蛋白質是什麼,
11:46
but we can see it's a marker
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但我們可以看到
11:48
for the response to the disease.
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是否會對疾病有影響。
11:53
So this already, I think,
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所以到這裡,我認為已經
11:55
is tremendously useful in all kinds of medicine.
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是在醫學上很有用的了。
11:58
But I think this is actually
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但我覺得
12:00
just the beginning
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這只是我們以後
12:02
of how we're going to treat cancer.
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將如何治療癌症的開端。
12:04
So let me move to cancer.
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所以讓我談談癌症。
12:06
The thing about cancer --
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關於癌症--
12:08
when I got into this,
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當我剛開始接觸的時候,
12:10
I really knew nothing about it,
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我事實上什麼都不知道。
12:12
but working with David Agus,
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但跟大衛艾格斯合作,
12:14
I started watching how cancer was actually being treated
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我開始觀察癌症治療,
12:17
and went to operations where it was being cut out.
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還去看癌細胞移除手術。
12:20
And as I looked at it,
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按照我的觀察,
12:22
to me it didn't make sense
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對我來說我們治療癌症的方式
12:24
how we were approaching cancer,
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是不合邏輯的。
12:26
and in order to make sense of it,
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為了瞭解它,
12:29
I had to learn where did this come from.
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我必須學這個是從何而來。
12:32
We're treating cancer almost like it's an infectious disease.
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我們治療癌症的方式有點像是治療感染性疾病。
12:36
We're treating it as something that got inside of you
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我們治療的方式像是一個外來物侵入,
12:38
that we have to kill.
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且我們需要殺死這個外來物。
12:40
So this is the great paradigm.
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所以這是標準範例。
12:42
This is another case
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另一個
12:44
where a theoretical paradigm in biology really worked --
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理論在生物學是對的的例子--
12:46
was the germ theory of disease.
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就是細菌和疾病的關係。
12:49
So what doctors are mostly trained to do
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所以大部分醫生的訓練
12:51
is diagnose --
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就是去診斷
12:53
that is, put you into a category
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也就是說把你放在某一個類別中
12:55
and apply a scientifically proven treatment
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然後給你一個科學上證明為有用的
12:57
for that diagnosis --
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治療方式。
12:59
and that works great for infectious diseases.
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這對治療感染性疾病是很有用的。
13:02
So if we put you in the category
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如果我們把你放在得到梅毒的類別,
13:04
of you've got syphilis, we can give you penicillin.
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那麽我們就給你盤尼西林。
13:07
We know that that works.
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我們知道這是有用的。
13:09
If you've got malaria, we give you quinine
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如果你有瘧疾,我們給你奎寧,
13:11
or some derivative of it.
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或它的一些衍生物。
13:13
And so that's the basic thing doctors are trained to do,
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這基本上是醫生被訓練來做的事。
13:16
and it's miraculous
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這在感染性疾病上
13:18
in the case of infectious disease --
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有的效果--
13:21
how well it works.
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是幾近神奇的。
13:23
And many people in this audience probably wouldn't be alive
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而且如果醫生們不這麼做,
13:26
if doctors didn't do this.
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在座很多人可能活不到現在。
13:28
But now let's apply that
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但現在讓我們以同樣的方式
13:30
to systems diseases like cancer.
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對待這個叫做癌症的疾病。
13:32
The problem is that, in cancer,
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問題出在於,在癌症中,
13:34
there isn't something else
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並沒有外來物
13:36
that's inside of you.
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侵入人體。
13:38
It's you; you're broken.
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是你自己,你有問題。
13:40
That conversation inside of you
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那個你身體中的對話
13:44
got mixed up in some way.
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出了問題。
13:46
So how do we diagnose that conversation?
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所以我們要如何診斷這個對話?
13:48
Well, right now what we do is we divide it by part of the body --
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目前我們根據身體部位把它劃分--
13:51
you know, where did it appear? --
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你知道的,就是在哪裡發生--
13:54
and we put you in different categories
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所以我們根據身體部位
13:56
according to the part of the body.
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有不同的類別。
13:58
And then we do a clinical trial
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然後我們有臨床試驗,
14:00
for a drug for lung cancer
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有針對肺癌的藥的試驗,
14:02
and one for prostate cancer and one for breast cancer,
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有另一個針對前列腺癌,然後另一個給乳癌,
14:05
and we treat these as if they're separate diseases
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我們把他們看待成不同的疾病。
14:08
and that this way of dividing them
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且這樣的分法
14:10
had something to do with what actually went wrong.
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是基於發病表面的症狀。
14:12
And of course, it really doesn't have that much to do
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但當然的,實情跟發病表面的症狀
14:14
with what went wrong
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是沒有太大關係的。
14:16
because cancer is a failure of the system.
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因為癌症是系統出問題。
14:19
And in fact, I think we're even wrong
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事實上,我認為我們把癌症當作“一個東西”
14:21
when we talk about cancer as a thing.
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這個看法本身就有問題。
14:24
I think this is the big mistake.
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我認為那是個很大的錯誤。
14:26
I think cancer should not be a noun.
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我認為癌症不該是名詞。
14:30
We should talk about cancering
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我們應該把癌症當作動詞,
14:32
as something we do, not something we have.
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像是我們正在做,不是我們有。
14:35
And so those tumors,
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且那些腫瘤,
14:37
those are symptoms of cancer.
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是癌症的症狀。
14:39
And so your body is probably cancering all the time,
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所以你的身體可能隨時都在癌症中。
14:42
but there are lots of systems in your body
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但你的身體有很多系統,
14:45
that keep it under control.
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會讓它在控制當中。
14:47
And so to give you an idea
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所以要給你們一個
14:49
of an analogy of what I mean
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我剛剛比喻的概念
14:51
by thinking of cancering as a verb,
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想像癌症是個動詞,
14:54
imagine we didn't know anything about plumbing,
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想像我們對配管系統完全不了解,
14:57
and the way that we talked about it,
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還有我們談論的方式,
14:59
we'd come home and we'd find a leak in our kitchen
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我們會回到家看到廚房漏水,
15:02
and we'd say, "Oh, my house has water."
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我們會說:「喔,我的房子有水。」
15:06
We might divide it -- the plumber would say, "Well, where's the water?"
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我們會把它分類--水電工會說:「水在哪裡?」
15:09
"Well, it's in the kitchen." "Oh, you must have kitchen water."
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「在廚房裡。」「喔,你有廚房水。」
15:12
That's kind of the level at which it is.
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有點像是這樣理解的。
15:15
"Kitchen water,
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廚房水?
15:17
well, first of all, we'll go in there and we'll mop out a lot of it.
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好,首先,我們要去那裡把水擦乾。
15:19
And then we know that if we sprinkle Drano around the kitchen,
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然後我們知道如果在廚房撒Draino清潔劑
15:22
that helps.
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會有幫助。
15:25
Whereas living room water,
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如果是客廳水,
15:27
it's better to do tar on the roof."
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可能要到屋頂上塗焦油有用。
15:29
And it sounds silly,
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這聽起來很可笑,
15:31
but that's basically what we do.
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但這基本上這就是我們現在的做法。
15:33
And I'm not saying you shouldn't mop up your water if you have cancer,
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我不是說當你有癌症的時候你不該把水清乾淨。
15:36
but I'm saying that's not really the problem;
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我是說它不是真正的問題;
15:39
that's the symptom of the problem.
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那只是問題的症狀。
15:41
What we really need to get at
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我們需要修理的
15:43
is the process that's going on,
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是整個過程,
15:45
and that's happening at the level
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而那是在蛋白質的層面上
15:47
of the proteonomic actions,
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決定的。
15:49
happening at the level of why is your body not healing itself
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要去瞭解為什麼你的身體不能像以往一樣
15:52
in the way that it normally does?
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修復自己?
15:54
Because normally, your body is dealing with this problem all the time.
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因為平常你的身體隨時都在處理各種問題。
15:57
So your house is dealing with leaks all the time,
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所以你的房子也一直都在處理漏水。
16:00
but it's fixing them. It's draining them out and so on.
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是去解決這個問題,是將水排出系統外。
16:04
So what we need
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所以我們需要的
16:07
is to have a causative model
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是一個整個過程
16:11
of what's actually going on,
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因果關係的模型。
16:13
and proteomics actually gives us
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蛋白質體學可以給我們
16:16
the ability to build a model like that.
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做這樣的模型的能力。
16:19
David got me invited
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大衛邀請我
16:21
to give a talk at National Cancer Institute
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到國家癌症學院演講
16:23
and Anna Barker was there.
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安娜芭克也在那。
16:27
And so I gave this talk
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我在那演了講
16:29
and said, "Why don't you guys do this?"
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問說:「為什麼你們不這麼做?」
16:32
And Anna said,
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安娜說:「
16:34
"Because nobody within cancer
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因為在癌症中的人
16:37
would look at it this way.
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不會這樣看這件事。
16:39
But what we're going to do, is we're going to create a program
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但我們要做的是,我們要創造一個計畫
16:42
for people outside the field of cancer
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讓癌症領域外的人
16:44
to get together with doctors
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可以和真正
16:46
who really know about cancer
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瞭解癌症的醫生合作,
16:49
and work out different programs of research."
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然後做出不同的研究方向。」
16:53
So David and I applied to this program
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所以大維和我申請了這個計畫
16:55
and created a consortium
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且在南加大
16:57
at USC
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創造了一個聯合會,
16:59
where we've got some of the best oncologists in the world
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在那我們有世界上最好的癌症學家,
17:02
and some of the best biologists in the world,
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一些世界上頂尖的生物學家,
17:05
from Cold Spring Harbor,
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從冷泉港,
17:07
Stanford, Austin --
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從史丹佛,從奧斯丁--
17:09
I won't even go through and name all the places --
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我不列舉全部的地方--
17:12
to have a research project
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這些人一起做這個研究計畫
17:15
that will last for five years
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花五年的時間,
17:17
where we're really going to try to build a model of cancer like this.
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我們要試著去建造一個癌症模型。
17:20
We're doing it in mice first,
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我們從老鼠開始。
17:22
and we will kill a lot of mice
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在這個過程中
17:24
in the process of doing this,
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我們會犧牲很多老鼠,
17:26
but they will die for a good cause.
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但他們的犧牲會是有用的。
17:28
And we will actually try to get to the point
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且我們要試著達到一個
17:31
where we have a predictive model
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可以預測的模型,
17:33
where we can understand,
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我們可以瞭解
17:35
when cancer happens,
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什麼時候癌症會發生,
17:37
what's actually happening in there
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事實上發生了什麼事,
17:39
and which treatment will treat that cancer.
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和什麼樣的治療方法可以治療癌症。
17:42
So let me just end with giving you a little picture
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讓我給你一個我認為
17:45
of what I think cancer treatment will be like in the future.
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未來癌症治療的方向。
17:48
So I think eventually,
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我認為總有一天,
17:50
once we have one of these models for people,
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當我們有針對人類的模型後,
17:52
which we'll get eventually --
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我們有一天會做到的--
17:54
I mean, our group won't get all the way there --
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我的意思是,我們這個團隊不會一直做到那--
17:56
but eventually we'll have a very good computer model --
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但總有一天我們會有一個很棒的電腦模型--
17:59
sort of like a global climate model for weather.
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有點像是世界天氣模型那樣。
18:02
It has lots of different information
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這系統有很多不同的訊息,
18:05
about what's the process going on in this proteomic conversation
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可以提供在不同層面蛋白質的對話中
18:08
on many different scales.
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發生的事情。
18:10
And so we will simulate
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所以我們可以
18:12
in that model
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針對特定的模型
18:14
for your particular cancer --
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來跑這樣的模擬--
18:17
and this also will be for ALS,
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且這也可以幫助ALS(脊椎硬化症)
18:19
or any kind of system neurodegenerative diseases,
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或其他任何一種神經退化性疾病,
18:22
things like that --
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像是這一類的事--
18:24
we will simulate
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我們可以特別為你
18:26
specifically you,
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來作模擬,
18:28
not just a generic person,
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不只是一般不特定的人,
18:30
but what's actually going on inside you.
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而是在你體內發生的事。
18:32
And in that simulation, what we could do
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在這樣的模擬中,
18:34
is design for you specifically
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我們可以特別為你設計
18:36
a sequence of treatments,
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一系列的治療,
18:38
and it might be very gentle treatments, very small amounts of drugs.
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這有可能是很簡單的治療,很少量的藥物。
18:41
It might be things like, don't eat that day,
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有可能是,那天不要吃東西,
18:44
or give them a little chemotherapy,
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或是給他們一點點化療,
18:46
maybe a little radiation.
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或一點點放射線治療。
18:48
Of course, we'll do surgery sometimes and so on.
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當然,有時候我們也會開刀或做一些其他的事。
18:51
But design a program of treatments specifically for you
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但完全針對你來設計的治療,
18:54
and help your body
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來幫助你的身體
18:57
guide back to health --
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回到健康的狀態--
19:00
guide your body back to health.
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引導你回到健康。
19:02
Because your body will do most of the work of fixing it
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因為你的身體會做大部份的修理動作,
19:06
if we just sort of prop it up in the ways that are wrong.
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我們只是需要把錯誤的地方稍微修正一下。
19:09
We put it in the equivalent of splints.
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我們把它放在矯正器中。
19:11
And so your body basically has lots and lots of mechanisms
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所以你的身體基本上有很多可以
19:13
for fixing cancer,
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治療癌症的方法,
19:15
and we just have to prop those up in the right way
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我們只是要把它引導到正確的方向
19:18
and get them to do the job.
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讓它們做這個工作。
19:20
And so I believe that this will be the way
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所以我相信這會是
19:22
that cancer will be treated in the future.
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未來治療癌症的方法。
19:24
It's going to require a lot of work,
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這會需要很多努力,
19:26
a lot of research.
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很多研究。
19:28
There will be many teams like our team
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會有很多像我們這樣的團隊
19:31
that work on this.
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來研究這個。
19:33
But I think eventually,
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但我認為最後,
19:35
we will design for everybody
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我們可以針對每一個人設計
19:37
a custom treatment for cancer.
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專屬個人的癌症療法。
19:41
So thank you very much.
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謝謝大家。
19:43
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
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