Michael Archer: How we'll resurrect the gastric brooding frog, the Tasmanian tiger
51,204 views ・ 2013-06-27
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00:00
Translator: Joseph Geni
Reviewer: Morton Bast
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譯者: Harrison Chang
審譯者: Cherry Huang
00:12
I do want to test this question
we're all interested in:
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試問一個大家都有興趣的問題
00:15
Does extinction have to be forever?
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絕種這回事是否絕對是永久的呢?
00:18
I'm focused on two projects
I want to tell you about.
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我想告訴你們兩個我所關注的計畫
00:21
One is the Thylacine Project.
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一個是關於袋狼
00:23
The other one is the Lazarus Project,
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一個是拉薩魯計劃
00:25
and that's focused
on the gastric-brooding frog.
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一個關於胃育溪蟾的計畫
00:27
And it would be a fair question to ask,
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大家可能會問
00:29
why have we focused on these two animals?
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為什麼我們要關注在這兩種動物上
00:32
Well, point number one, each of them
represents a unique family of its own.
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首先是因為牠們能
代表各自所屬的特殊的科別
00:37
We've lost a whole family.
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我們已經失去這科別中所有的成員
00:39
That's a big chunk
of the global genome gone.
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一個不小的全面性基因庫就此消失
00:41
I'd like it back.
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而我想要它再展從前之盛況
00:43
The second reason
is that we killed these things.
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第二個原因是因為
我們就是這個問題的肇事者
00:47
In the case of the thylacine, regrettably,
we shot every one that we saw.
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在袋狼的例子中,很不幸地
我們屠殺了牠們
00:52
We slaughtered them.
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00:54
In the case of the gastric-brooding frog,
we may have "fungicided" it to death.
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而在胃育溪蟾的例子中
我們可能讓"真菌"殺了牠們
00:59
There's a dreadful fungus
that's moving through the world
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有一種散布於世界上的可怕真菌
叫做"蛙壺菌"
01:02
that's called the chytrid fungus,
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它感染了遍佈世界各地的蛙類
01:04
and it's nailing frogs all over the world.
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01:06
We think that's probably
what got this frog,
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我們認為這也許是胃育溪蟾滅絕的主因
01:08
and humans are spreading this fungus.
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而人類正是散播這些真菌的始作俑者
01:10
And this introduces
a very important ethical point,
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而這引出了很重要的道德觀點
01:13
and I think you will have heard
this many times
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我相信你們已經聽過很多次
01:15
when this topic comes up.
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當滅絕的議題被提出來
01:17
What I think is important
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我認為重要的是
01:19
is that, if it's clear
that we exterminated these species,
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我們過去是否清楚地研究這些物種
01:22
then I think we not only
have a moral obligation
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此外我認為我們不僅因為義務
01:26
to see what we can do about it,
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看看我們還能做什麼,只要我們有能力
01:27
but I think we've got a moral imperative
to try to do something, if we can.
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我們有道德上的責任必須試著做些什麼
01:32
OK. Let me talk to you
about the Lazarus Project.
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那我們來談談拉魯薩計畫
01:35
It's a frog. And you think, frog.
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這是青蛙,是的,青蛙
01:38
Yeah, but this was not just any frog.
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但卻不是一般的青蛙
01:41
Unlike a normal frog,
which lays its eggs in the water
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不像一般的青蛙只是把蛋產在水裡
01:44
and goes away
and wishes its froglets well,
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然後就任其生長
01:47
this frog swallowed its fertilized eggs,
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胃育溪蟾會把受精卵
吞到本來應該要裝滿食物胃中
01:51
swallowed them into the stomach,
where it should be having food,
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01:54
didn't digest the eggs,
and turned its stomach into a uterus.
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卻不消化這些蛋
而把胃當成子宮
01:59
In the stomach, the eggs
went on to develop into tadpoles,
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蛋便在胃裡發育成蝌蚪
02:02
and in the stomach, the tadpoles
went on to develop into frogs,
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並且就在胃裡長成幼蛙
02:06
and they grew in the stomach
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他們在胃中長大直到
02:08
until eventually the poor old frog
was at risk of bursting apart.
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可憐的母蛙冒著被撐破的危險
02:12
It has a little cough and a hiccup,
and out comes sprays of little frogs.
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在咳嗽或打嗝時使得
幼蛙被噴出
02:16
Now, when biologists saw this,
they were agog.
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現在,當生物學家看到這時
他們感到無比的震撼
02:19
They thought, this is incredible.
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紛紛不敢置信
02:20
No animal, let alone a frog,
has been known to do this,
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除了青蛙之外,從來沒有動物能做到這件事
02:24
to change one organ
in the body into another.
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改變一個器官的功能
02:26
And you can imagine the medical world
went nuts over this as well.
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可想而知醫界限入瘋狂
02:30
If we could understand
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如果我們能夠了解
胃育溪蟾的胃如何運作
02:32
how that frog is managing
the way its tummy works,
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那麼將會有許多資訊
02:35
is there information here
that we need to understand
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我們必須盡一步了解甚至運用
02:37
or could usefully use to help ourselves?
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來幫助更多人
02:41
Now, I'm not suggesting we want
to raise our babies in our stomach,
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我並不是說要把嬰兒養在胃裡
02:44
but I am suggesting it's possible
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而是我們可能可以了解
02:46
we might want to manage
gastric secretion in the gut.
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胃在內臟裡的分泌物
02:48
And just as everybody
got excited about it, bang!
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當大家都對此感到興奮時,碰
02:51
It was extinct.
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胃育溪蟾絕種了
我打給我朋友,邁克泰勒教授
02:54
I called up my friend,
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02:55
Professor Mike Tyler
in the University of Adelaide.
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在阿德雷得大學
他是最後一個曾有這種青蛙的人
02:58
He was the last person who had this frog,
a colony of these things, in his lab.
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在他的實驗室中曾有ㄧ群這種青蛙
03:02
And I said, "Mike, by any chance --"
This was 30 or 40 years ago.
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我說"麥克,有無可能
這是30到40年前的事
03:05
"By any chance had you kept
any frozen tissue of this frog?"
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有無可能你還留著胃育溪蟾的組織
03:09
And he thought about it,
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他想了想,到了他那負二十度
03:10
and he went to his deep freezer,
minus 20 degrees centigrade,
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的大冰箱
03:14
and he poured through
everything in the freezer,
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把所有東西都拿出來
在最底層是一個罐子
03:16
and there in the bottom was a jar
and it contained tissues of these frogs.
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裝著一些青蛙的組織
03:20
This was very exciting,
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這非常令人振奮
03:22
but there was no reason
why we should expect that this would work,
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但我們確沒有理由確信這會行的通
03:25
because this tissue
had not had any antifreeze put in it,
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因為這組織沒有摻入防凍劑
03:29
cryoprotectants, to look after it
when it was frozen.
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低溫防護劑,確保冷凍樣品的狀況
03:33
And normally, when water freezes,
as you know, it expands,
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普遍來說,水結冰時會膨脹
03:35
and the same thing happens in a cell.
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一樣的事也發生在細胞中
03:37
If you freeze tissues, the water expands,
damages or bursts the cell walls.
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若將組織冰動,其中的水會膨脹
傷害或撐破細胞壁
當我們從顯微鏡下看組織時
03:42
Well, we looked at the tissue
under the microscope.
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03:44
It actually didn't look bad.
The cell walls looked intact.
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竟然看起來不差。細胞壁完好無缺
於是我們想,試試無妨
03:47
So we thought, let's give it a go.
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我們所作的稱為
03:49
What we did is something called
somatic cell nuclear transplantation.
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體細胞核移植
03:53
We took the eggs
of a related species, a living frog,
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我們拿了一隻活的,有血緣關係的卵
03:57
and we inactivated the nucleus of the egg.
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然後使其核失去作用
04:00
We used ultraviolet radiation to do that.
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我們是用紫外光做到的
04:02
And then we took the dead nucleus
from the dead tissue of the extinct frog
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再把胃育溪蟾的核
從死去組織中抽出來
注入失去核的活卵中
04:07
and we inserted those nuclei
into that egg.
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04:10
Now, by rights, this is
kind of like a cloning project,
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這樣看起來的確有點像
基因復製的過程
像桃莉羊那樣,但其實是很不一樣的
04:14
like what produced Dolly,
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04:15
but it's actually very different,
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04:16
because Dolly was live sheep
into live sheep cells.
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因為桃莉是活體之間的移植
04:19
That was a miracle, but it was workable.
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那是一個行得通的奇蹟
而我們做的是取出
絕種物種的死細胞核
04:22
What we're trying to do is take
a dead nucleus from an extinct species
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04:25
and put it into a completely different
species and expect that to work.
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然後放進完全不同的物種
並期許牠能作用
04:29
Well, we had no real reason
to expect it would,
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我們是沒有理由期望牠會成功
04:31
and we tried hundreds
and hundreds of these.
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在試了幾百次後
04:34
And just last February,
the last time we did these trials,
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就在去年二月,最後ㄧ次的試驗
04:37
I saw a miracle starting to happen.
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我看到了奇蹟的發生
大部份的卵儘管不能作用
04:41
What we found was
most of these eggs didn't work,
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04:44
but then suddenly,
one of them began to divide.
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卻有一個突然開始分裂了
04:47
That was so exciting.
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當它又分裂時著實令人興奮
04:48
And then the egg divided again.
And then again.
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接著它又不斷地分裂,很快地我們有了一個
04:51
And pretty soon,
we had early-stage embryos
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以數百個細胞組成的早期胚胎
04:54
with hundreds of cells forming those.
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04:57
We even DNA-tested some of these cells,
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我們甚至對一些細胞進行DNA測試
的確在那些細胞中
含有胃育溪蟾的DNA
05:00
and the DNA of the extinct frog
is in those cells.
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05:04
So we're very excited.
This is not a tadpole. It's not a frog.
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我們感到非常興奮。那還不是蝌蚪
也還不是青蛙。但它是一個讓絕種的胃育溪蟾
05:07
But it's a long way along the journey
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05:10
to producing, or bringing back,
an extinct species.
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起死回生的偉大旅程
05:13
And this is news.
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這可是一個我們從未宣布的大新聞
05:14
We haven't announced this publicly before.
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對於將跨入令一個不同的階段
我們感到鼓舞
05:17
We're excited.
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05:18
We've got to get past this point.
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05:19
We now want this ball of cells
to start to gastrulate,
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我們期望這團細胞球體
能進入原腸胚階段
05:22
to turn in so that it will produce
the other tissues.
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以繼續繁殖其他組織
05:25
It'll go on and produce
a tadpole and then a frog.
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最後將成為蝌蚪然後是青蛙
05:28
Watch this space.
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看看這空間,我相信我們能
05:30
I think we're going to have
this frog hopping
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讓胃育溪蟾在這裡活潑的跳來跳去
05:32
glad to be back in the world again.
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謝謝
05:34
(Applause)
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05:36
Thank you.
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05:37
(Applause)
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05:39
We haven't done it yet,
but keep the applause ready.
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我們還沒做到,但那些掌聲將來會用到的
另一個計畫是袋狼的計劃
05:43
The second project I want to talk
to you about is the Thylacine Project.
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05:47
The thylacine looks a bit,
to most people, like a dog,
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牠對大多數的人來說
看起來有點像一隻狗
05:50
or maybe like a tiger,
because it has stripes.
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或老虎,因為牠有斑紋
但牠跟那些一點關係都沒有
05:53
But it's not related to any of those.
It's a marsupial.
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牠是有袋類。從小在袋中長大
05:55
It raised its young in a pouch,
like a koala or a kangaroo would do,
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就像無尾熊或袋鼠
而牠有一個可以追溯到2500萬年前
06:00
and it has a long history,
a long, fascinating history,
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06:05
that goes back 25 million years.
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久遠而美好的歷史
但那卻也是一個悲慘的歷史
06:08
But it's also a tragic history.
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06:10
The first one that we see occurs
in the ancient rain forests of Australia
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第一件事是發生在2500萬年前
澳洲的古雨林裡
06:15
about 25 million years ago,
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國家地理協會幫忙我們
06:17
and the National Geographic Society
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06:19
is helping us to explore
these fossil deposits.
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去探勘化石沉積物。這裡是 Riverleigh
06:21
This is Riversleigh.
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06:23
In those fossil rocks
are some amazing animals.
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在化石中有些令人驚艷的動物
06:26
We found marsupial lions.
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我們找到有袋的獅子
06:28
We found carnivorous kangaroos.
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肉食性的袋鼠
06:30
It's not what you usually
think about as a kangaroo,
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並不是平常我們所見
而是真的吃肉的袋鼠
06:33
but these are meat-eating kangaroos.
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還有全世界最大的鳥類
06:35
We found the biggest bird in the world,
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06:37
bigger than that thing
that was in Madagascar,
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比馬達加斯加的還大
06:39
and it too was a flesh eater.
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牠也是一種巨大而奇怪的肉食性鴨子
06:40
It was a giant, weird duck.
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06:43
And crocodiles were not behaving
at that time either.
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連鱷魚當時的行為都是不太一樣的
06:45
You think of crocodiles
as doing their ugly thing,
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你也許認為鱷魚就是髒髒的
06:48
sitting in a pool of water.
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待在水裡
06:49
These crocodiles
were actually out on the land
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牠們其實是在陸地上的
06:52
and they were even climbing trees
and jumping on prey on the ground.
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甚至爬到樹上然後
撲到獵物身上
06:57
We had, in Australia, drop crocs.
They really do exist.
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這種會跳下來的鱷魚確實存在過,就在澳洲
07:01
(Laughter)
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07:02
But what they were dropping on
was not only other weird animals
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而牠們撲倒的其中一種生物
便是袋狼
07:05
but also thylacines.
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07:07
There were five different kinds
of thylacines in those ancient forests,
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在那原始林中有五種不同的袋狼
從極大的到中型的
07:11
and they ranged from great big ones
to middle-sized ones
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07:15
to one that was
about the size of a chihuahua.
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到小型如吉娃娃狗的尺寸
07:19
Paris Hilton would have been able
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連Paris Hilton都放一隻
在小手提包中帶著走
07:21
to carry one of these things around
in a little handbag,
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07:23
until a drop croc landed on her.
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直到一隻鱷魚飛撲在她身上
07:25
At any rate, it was a fascinating place,
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無論如何,那是個令人驚奇的地方
07:27
but unfortunately,
Australia didn't stay this way.
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但不幸地,澳洲並未繼續保持下去
07:30
Climate change has affected the world
for a long period of time,
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氣候變遷已經影響這個世界好一陣子了
07:33
and gradually, the forests disappeared,
the country began to dry out,
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而雨林日漸消失
氣候逐漸乾燥
07:38
and the number of kinds
of thylacines began to decline,
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袋狼數量也隨之銳減
07:40
until by five million years ago,
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到了五百萬年前只剩下一隻
07:42
only one left.
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07:43
By 10,000 years ago,
they had disappeared from New Guinea,
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一萬年前在新幾內亞
絕種了,並且不幸地
07:47
and unfortunately, by 4,000 years ago,
somebodies, we don't know who this was,
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四千年前
有不知名的人把澳洲野犬
07:54
introduced dingoes --
this is a very archaic kind of a dog --
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一種古代的狗,引進澳洲
07:57
into Australia.
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如你所見
07:59
And as you can see,
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08:00
dingoes are very similar
in their body form to thylacines.
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身形上兩者非常相似
08:03
That similarity meant
they probably competed.
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也就是說牠們曾是競爭關係
08:06
They were eating the same kinds of foods.
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吃同樣的食物
甚至可能從前原住民曾經豢養
08:08
It's even possible that aborigines were
keeping some of these dingoes as pets,
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一些澳洲野犬作為寵物,因此
08:12
and therefore they may have had
an advantage in the battle for survival.
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牠們可能在生存活命上有優勢
08:16
All we know is, soon after
the dingoes were brought in,
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我們所知道的是,當澳洲野犬被引進之後不久
08:18
thylacines were extinct
in the Australian mainland,
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袋狼就從澳洲大陸上消失了
08:21
and after that they only
survived in Tasmania.
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此後只有塔思馬尼雅島有袋狼的蹤跡
08:25
Then, unfortunately,
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然後,發生了袋狼生存史上另一件悲慘的事
08:26
the next sad part of the thylacine story
is that Europeans arrived in 1788,
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就是歐洲人在1788年移入
08:31
and they brought with them
the things they valued,
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並帶來具經濟價值的事物,包括綿羊
08:34
and that included sheep.
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他們看了看島上的袋狼
08:36
They took one look
at the thylacine in Tasmania,
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08:38
and they thought, hang on,
this is not going to work.
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並且心想,等等,這行不通的
08:42
That guy is going to eat all our sheep.
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袋狼將會吃掉所有的綿羊
08:44
That was not what happened, actually.
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但這件事其實從未發生過
野狗的確吃了一些綿羊
袋狼卻成了代罪羔羊
08:47
Wild dogs did eat a few of the sheep,
but the thylacine got a bad rap.
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08:50
But immediately, the government said,
that's it, let's get rid of them,
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但政府卻唐突的決定
要除掉牠們,並獎賞
08:54
and they paid people
to slaughter every one that they saw.
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那些屠殺袋狼的人
08:58
By the early 1930s,
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到1930、40年代,已有3000到4000隻
09:00
3,000 to 4,000 thylacines
had been murdered.
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被屠殺。這是一場災難
09:04
It was a disaster,
and they were about to hit the wall.
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而牠們就快遇到瓶頸了
看看這部短片
09:09
Have a look at this bit of film footage.
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09:11
It makes me very sad because,
while it's a fascinating animal,
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一部使我很感傷的影片
09:15
and it's amazing to think
that we had the technology to film it
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我們有這樣的科技去錄影
09:20
before it actually plunged off
that cliff of extinction,
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但在把牠推入絕種深淵之前
09:24
we didn't, unfortunately,
at this same time,
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很不幸地,我們沒有同時
09:27
have a molecule of concern
about the welfare for this species.
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顧及這物種的存續
09:31
These are photos of the last
surviving thylacine, Benjamin,
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這是一隻倖存的袋狼,Benjamin的照片
09:34
who was in the Beaumaris Zoo in Hobart.
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在Hobart的Beaumaris動物園裡
09:37
To add insult to injury,
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雪上加霜的是,這隻袋狼竟死於疏於照料
09:39
having swept this species
nearly off the table,
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使這物種的滅絕成為必然
09:43
this animal, when it died of neglect --
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09:45
The keepers didn't let it
into the hutch on a cold night in Hobart.
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管理員並未在Hobart一個寒冷的夜晚
把牠安置在屋內,牠便因此死去
09:50
It died of exposure, and in the morning,
when they found the body of Benjamin,
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當Benjamin的屍體在早上被發現時
09:53
they still cared so little for this animal
that they threw the body in the dump.
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也並未引起太多關注
他們把牠的屍體丟到垃圾場了
10:00
Does it have to stay this way?
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事情真的必須這樣嗎?
10:03
In 1990, I was in the Australian Museum.
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1990年,我在澳洲的博物館
10:06
I was fascinated by thylacines.
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被袋狼深深地吸引了,我總是被動物吸引
10:07
I've always been obsessed
with these animals.
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而我研究頭骨,想了解
10:10
And I was studying skulls,
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10:11
trying to figure out their relationships
to other sorts of animals,
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袋狼跟其他物種之間的關係
10:14
and I saw this jar,
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而我看到這個罐子
10:16
and here, in the jar,
was a little girl thylacine pup,
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其中有一之母幼犬,大概六個月大
10:21
perhaps six months old.
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10:22
The guy who had found it
and killed the mother
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殺了牠的人也殺了牠媽媽
並撿起裝進酒精中
10:25
had pickled the pup,
and they pickled it in alcohol.
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10:28
I'm a paleontologist, but I still knew
alcohol was a DNA preservative.
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我是一個古生物學家,但我仍知到DNA保存法
10:32
But this was 1990,
and I asked my geneticist friends,
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但當時是1990年,而我問我遺傳學家的朋友
10:36
couldn't we think
about going into this pup
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我們可否在這隻狗中
10:38
and extracting DNA, if it's there,
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萃取DNA,如果有的話
10:41
and then somewhere
down the line in the future,
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在將來的某一天
我們會利用DNA讓袋狼再現
10:44
we'll use this DNA
to bring the thylacine back?
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那位遺傳學家笑了。但這是在桃莉羊事件的六年前
10:46
The geneticists laughed.
But this was six years before Dolly.
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10:50
Cloning was science fiction.
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生物複製仍然是很科幻的。他還未發生過。
10:52
It had not happened.
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10:53
But then suddenly cloning did happen.
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但不久之後就突然成真了
10:56
And I thought, when I became
director of the Australian Museum,
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我便想,當我成為博物館的負責人時
我要讓這個計畫成真
10:59
I'm going to give this a go.
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11:00
I put a team together.
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我組了一個小隊
11:02
We went into that pup
to see what was in it,
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去研究幼犬的身體
11:05
and we did find thylacine DNA.
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我們的確找到了DNA,這真是一個鼓舞人心的時刻。
11:07
It was a eureka moment.
We were very excited.
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我們很興奮
11:09
Unfortunately, we also found
a lot of human DNA.
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不幸的是,我們也找到很多人類的DNA
11:13
Every old curator
who'd been in that museum
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每一位館內的老管理員
11:16
had seen this wonderful specimen,
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都看過這玄妙的物種
把他們的手伸進去,伸出來並想
11:18
put their hand in the jar,
pulled it out and thought,
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11:20
"Wow, look at that,"
plop, dropped it back in the jar,
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"哇,瞧瞧這" 然後又把它放回去
因此汙染了它們
11:23
contaminating this specimen.
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11:24
And that was a worry.
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如果我們要萃取DNA讓袋狼復活的話
11:26
If the goal here was to get the DNA out
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11:28
and use the DNA down the track
to try to bring a thylacine back,
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這是一個很大的麻煩
我們最不想要發生的事就是
11:32
what we didn't want happening
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11:33
when the information
was shoved into the machine
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把遺傳訊息放入複製機器然後開始運作
11:36
and the wheel turned around
and the lights flashed,
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指示燈一閃一滅,從機器另一端跑出來的是
11:38
was to have a wizened old horrible curator
pop out the other end of the machine.
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一個又皺又老又可怕的管理員(笑)
11:42
It would've kept the curator very happy,
but it wasn't going to keep us happy.
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這可能會讓老管理員們很開心
但對我們來說卻不會
我們繼續找尋我們想要的答案
11:46
So we went back to these specimens
and we started digging around,
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11:49
and particularly,
we looked into the teeth of skulls,
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我們特別檢查在頭骨中的牙齒部分
11:52
hard parts where humans
had not been able to get their fingers,
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一個比較硬的部分,人手沒有汙染的地方
11:55
and we found much better quality DNA.
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1944
我們找到了品質比較好的DNA
就在那裏,我們找到了核的粒腺體基因
11:58
We found nuclear mitochondrial genes.
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12:00
It's there. So we got it.
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我們做到了
12:01
OK. What could we do with this stuff?
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那麼,我們究竟可以用這些東西來做什麼呢?
12:04
Well, George Church,
in his book, "Regenesis,"
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首先,George Church 《再生》這本書中
12:06
has mentioned many of the techniques
that are rapidly advancing
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提到這方面技術的進展
12:09
to work with fragmented DNA.
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專門討論這些DNA
12:11
We would hope that we'll be able
to get that DNA back into a viable form,
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我們希望能尋回DNA
善加利用,然後就像我們在拉薩魯計畫所做的
12:16
and then, much like we've done
with the Lazarus Project,
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12:18
get that stuff into an egg
of a host species.
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放入一個寄宿物種的卵
12:21
It has to be a different species.
What could it be?
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牠必須是一個不一樣的物種
這宿主可能是什麼呢?
為何不能是塔斯馬尼亞袋獾?
12:24
Why couldn't it be a Tasmanian devil?
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12:26
They're related, distantly, to thylacines.
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牠們是和袋狼有關的物種呀
12:28
And then the Tasmanian devil is going
to pop a thylacine out the south end.
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塔斯馬尼亞袋獾就會生出一隻
來自南端的袋狼
12:33
Critics of this project say, hang on.
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但是批評這計畫的人說,等等
12:36
Thylacine, Tasmanian devil?
That's going to hurt.
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袋狼和袋獾? 牠們會彼此傷害吧
12:40
No, it's not. These are marsupials.
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但其實牠們不會,因為牠們是有袋物種
12:43
They give birth to babies
that are the size of a jelly bean.
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牠們生下的小寶寶跟雷根糖一樣大
牠們甚至不會知道自己要生產了
12:46
That Tasmanian devil's
not even going to know it gave birth.
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12:49
It is, shortly, going to think
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不久後袋獾只會覺得牠生下了
12:50
it's got the ugliest
Tasmanian devil baby in the world,
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全世界最醜的袋獾寶寶
所以也許牠仍需要一些幫助
讓事情順利發展
12:54
so maybe it'll need some help
to keep it going.
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12:58
Andrew Pask and his colleagues
have demonstrated
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Andrew Pask 和他的同事們證明了
13:00
this might not be a waste of time.
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這並非在浪費時間
13:02
And it's sort of in the future,
we haven't got there yet,
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在未來是很有潛力的,我們還有一段路要走
但是這件是我們要去思考的
13:05
but it's the kind of thing
we want to think about.
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他們拿了一些袋狼的DNA
13:07
They took some of this same
pickled thylacine DNA
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13:10
and they spliced it into a mouse genome,
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然後插入老鼠的基因體
13:13
but they put a tag on it
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並且標定這些基因
13:15
so that anything
that this thylacine DNA produced
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如此一來所有這隻袋狼DNA產生的東西
在幼鼠中會發出藍綠光
13:19
would appear blue-green in the mouse baby.
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13:22
In other words, if thylacine tissues
were being produced by the thylacine DNA,
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換句話說,如果有由袋狼DNA生出的
袋狼組織,就可以被分辨出來
13:26
it would be able to be recognized.
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當幼鼠出生時,牠全身充滿了藍綠色的組織
13:28
When the baby popped up,
it was filled with blue-green tissues.
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這告訴我們,假如我們可以重獲袋狼基因體
13:32
And that tells us if we can get
that genome back together,
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13:34
get it into a live cell,
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把基因體送進一個活細胞中
這細胞將會製造屬於袋狼的東西
13:36
it's going to produce thylacine stuff.
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13:39
Is this a risk?
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這很冒險嗎?
13:41
You've taken the bits of one animal
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1936
你拿了這動物的一部分
13:42
and you've mixed them into the cell
of a different kind of an animal.
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然後把牠們送入別的動物的細胞
我們想要得到一個科學怪人嗎?
13:46
Are we going to get a Frankenstein?
Some kind of weird hybrid chimera?
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你知道的,那種奇怪的混合拼裝體
13:50
And the answer is no.
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答案當然不是的
13:51
If the only nuclear DNA that goes
into this hybrid cell is thylacine DNA,
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如果進到這複合細胞
只有袋狼的核DNA,唯一會從袋獾那而跑出來的
13:56
that's the only thing that can pop out
the other end of the devil.
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只有袋狼
14:00
OK, if we can do this,
could we put it back?
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好,如果我們做得到這件事
那我們可以把袋狼放回自然界中嗎?
14:04
This is a key question for everybody.
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這是一個很重要的問題
14:05
Does it have to stay in a laboratory,
or could we put it back where it belongs?
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牠是否一定得待在實驗室裡
或事我們可以把它放回屬於牠的地方?
14:09
Could we put it back in the throne
of the king of beasts in Tasmania,
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讓牠重新變回塔斯馬尼亞島中
的百獸之王,並重建生態系統
14:13
restore that ecosystem?
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14:14
Or has Tasmania changed so much
that that's no longer possible?
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還是塔斯馬尼亞島已改變太多
無法再復原了?
我曾去過塔斯馬尼亞,以及其他
14:19
I've been to Tasmania.
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14:20
I've been to many of the areas
where the thylacines were common.
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袋狼曾經很常見的地方
14:23
I've even spoken to people,
like Peter Carter here,
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我曾經跟許多人說,譬如Peter Carter
14:26
who when I spoke to him, was 90 years old,
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當我和他談話時他已經90歲了
但1926年時,他曾經和他的哥哥和父親
14:29
but in 1926, this man
and his father and his brother
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14:32
caught thylacines.
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抓到一些袋狼 他們困住袋狼
14:34
They trapped them.
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14:35
And when I spoke to this man,
I was looking in his eyes and thinking,
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當我在和他說話時
我看著他的眼神並且想像
14:39
"Behind those eyes is a brain that has
memories of what thylacines feel like,
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這眼神背後隱含著
他對袋狼的記憶
14:46
what they smelled like,
what they sounded like."
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袋狼的味道,聲音
14:48
He led them around on a rope.
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他利用繩子誘引牠們
14:50
He has personal experiences
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他的親身經歷
14:52
that I would give my left leg
to have in my head.
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是我夢寐以求想要得到的
我們都想要讓這樣的事情成真
14:56
We'd all love to have
this sort of thing happen.
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14:58
Anyway, I asked Peter, by any chance,
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於是,我問Peter,如果有任何機會
15:00
could he take us back
to where he caught those thylacines.
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他是否能帶我們回到他抓袋狼的地方
我對於環境是否有改變有很大的興趣
15:03
My interest was in whether
the environment had changed.
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他覺得很困難,我的意思是,畢竟他在那小屋的事
15:06
He thought hard. It was nearly 80 years
before this that he'd been at this hut.
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已經是80年前了
15:09
At any rate, he led us
down this bush track,
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不論如何,他帶我們到下面的小路
而那裏,他所記得之處,曾經是那間小屋子
15:12
and there, right where he remembered,
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15:14
was the hut,
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15:15
and tears came into his eyes.
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他流下了眼淚
15:17
He looked at the hut. We went inside.
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他看著那個小屋,我們進到了屋裡
15:19
There were the wooden boards
on the sides of the hut
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在屋子的旁邊有一些木板
是他和他的父親以及哥哥
以前晚上睡的地方
15:22
where he and his father
and his brother had slept at night.
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15:24
And he told me, as it all
was flooding back in memories.
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他告訴我們,像所有的記憶突然泉湧而上
他說 "我記得袋狼們就在這小屋的周圍
15:27
He said, "I remember
the thylacines going around the hut
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想著屋子裡到底有什麼"
15:30
wondering what was inside,"
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15:31
and he said they made sounds
like "Yip! Yip! Yip!"
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他們發出"Yip Yip Yip' 的叫聲
這些都是他所記得的一部分人生
15:35
All of these are parts of his life
and what he remembers.
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但有一個很重要的問題我想問Peter
15:38
And the key question for me
was to ask Peter, has it changed?
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15:41
And he said no.
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"那些事情改變了嗎?' 答案是否定的
南海灘的樹林包圍了他的小屋
15:43
The southern beech forests
surrounded his hut
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就像1926年時的情景
15:45
just like it was
when he was there in 1926.
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15:47
The grasslands were sweeping away.
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到處都是草地
15:49
That's classic thylacine habitat.
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1976
也是袋狼習於生活的地方
15:51
And the animals in those areas
were the same that were there
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其實這些地方並無太大改變
生態環境跟以前有袋狼時差不多
15:54
when the thylacine was around.
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所以我們能把袋狼放回去嗎?我想是可以的
15:56
So could we put it back? Yes.
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15:58
Is that all we would do?
And this is an interesting question.
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但我們真的要這做嗎?
這是一個有趣的問題
也許你能把牠放回去
16:02
Sometimes you might
be able to put it back,
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16:04
but is that the safest way
to make sure it never goes extinct again?
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但這真的是最好的
確保牠不會再絕種的方法嗎?
我不這麼認為
16:07
And I don't think so.
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16:09
I think gradually, as we see species
all around the world,
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我想逐漸地,當我們看著全世界的動物
16:12
it's kind of a mantra that wildlife
is increasingly not safe in the wild.
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這有點像是一種詛咒
野生動物在野外會越來越不安全
16:16
We'd love to think it is,
but we know it isn't.
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我們想這麼覺得,但其實是時並不是
16:18
We need other parallel
strategies coming online.
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我們需要別的計畫共同推動
16:21
And this one interests me.
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而這個計畫對我來說很有趣
16:22
Some of the thylacines
that were being turned in to zoos,
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有些袋狼被送進動物園
16:25
sanctuaries, even at the museums,
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避難所,甚至博物館
16:27
had collar marks on the neck.
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這些地方都把牠們套上頸圈
16:29
They were being kept as pets,
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當作寵物養
16:31
and we know a lot
of bush tales and memories
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我們聽過人們有很多傳說和回憶
16:34
of people who had them as pets,
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他們曾經把袋狼拿來當寵物養
他們都覺得袋狼很棒,很友善
16:36
and they say they were
wonderful, friendly.
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16:38
This particular one
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這隻奇特的袋狼從森林裡跑來這裡
16:39
came in out of the forest to lick this boy
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舔這個男孩然後蜷身
16:42
and curled up around
the fireplace to go to sleep.
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然後蜷身在火爐旁睡著
這是一隻野生動物
16:45
A wild animal.
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16:46
And I'd like to ask the question.
We need to think about this.
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我想在這問一個
我們必須思考的問題
16:50
If it had not been illegal
to keep these thylacines as pets then,
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如果養袋狼不曾是非法的話
那袋狼現在會絕種嗎?
16:56
would the thylacine be extinct now?
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16:58
And I'm positive it wouldn't.
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我很肯定是不會的
17:00
We need to think
about this in today's world.
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在現今的世界我們必須好好地想一想
17:03
Could it be that getting animals
close to us so that we value them,
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把動物養在身邊
然後疼愛牠,這樣牠們就不會絕種了是嗎?
17:07
maybe they won't go extinct?
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17:09
And this is such a critical issue for us
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這是一個至關重要的問題
17:11
because if we don't do that,
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因為如果我們不這麼做
17:13
we're going to watch more of these animals
plunge off the precipice.
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4136
我們會看到更多的物種
在絕種的懸崖邊掙扎
17:17
As far as I'm concerned,
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就我所知,這也是
17:18
this is why we're trying to do
these kinds of de-extinction projects.
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為什麼我們要做這些計畫的原因之一
17:22
We are trying to restore
that balance of nature
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我們想重建我們曾經打亂的
17:25
that we have upset.
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大自然的平衡
17:27
Thank you.
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謝謝
(掌聲)
17:29
(Applause)
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