David Rockwell: Building the Ground Zero viewing platform

翻译人员: Qinfeng Guo 校对人员: Jie Chang

Kurt Andersen: Like many architects, David is a hog for the limelight

库尔特安德森：跟很多建筑师一样，大卫很想成为关注的焦点，

but is sufficiently reticent -- or at least pretends to be --

但是他又太沉默--至少是假装这样吧--

that he asked me to question him rather than speaking.

以至他要求我向他提问而不是自己讲述。

In fact what we're going to talk about,

实际上，我们今天要讨论的这个话题，

I think, is in fact a subject that is probably better served

在我看来通过谈话的方式

by a conversation than an address.

比演讲的方式讲述也许更好。

And I guess we have a bit of news clip to precede.

我们先来看一段新闻短片。

Dan Rather: Since the September 11th attack on the World Trade Center,

丹拉瑟: 从911世贸中心被袭击之后，

many people have flocked to downtown New York to see

很多人都涌进纽约市区

and pay respects at what amounts to the 16-acre burial ground.

那个16英亩的墓地来凭吊死者。

Now, as CBS's Jim Axelrod reports, they're putting the finishing touches

现在，正如哥伦比亚广播公司的记者吉姆艾克斯罗德报道的，那些工人正在为一条新的通道做最后的装修。

on a new way for people to visit and view the scene.

这条新通道是专门供人参观现场的。

Jim Axelrod: Forget the Empire State Building or the Statue of Liberty.

吉姆艾克斯罗德： 除了帝国大厦和自由女神像之外，

There's a new place in New York

在纽约又有了个新地方

where the crowds are thickest -- Ground Zero.

它是现在人群最拥挤的地方——世贸废墟中心。

Tourist: I've taken my step-daughter here from Indianapolis.

游客： 我把我的继女从印第安纳波利斯带到这里了。

This was -- out of all the tourist sites in New York City --

在纽约市众多的旅游景点中，

this was her number-one pick.

这是她的首选。

JA: Thousands now line up on lower Broadway.

吉姆：现在成千上万的人正在下百脑汇街排队。

Tourist: I've been wanting to come down here since this happened.

游客： 自那事故以来，我一直想来这里看看。

JA: Even on the coldest winter days.

吉姆： 即使在最寒冷的冬天。

To honor and remember.

为了悼念和铭记。

Tourist: It's reality, it's us. It happened here.

游客： 它是真实发生的，就发生在我们身上，就发生在这里。

This is ours.

这是我们共同的苦难。

JA: So many, in fact, that seeing has become

吉姆： 事实上，人太多了，以至来这里凭吊已经

a bit of a problem.

存在一些小问题。

Tourist: I think that people are very frustrated

游客： 我想人们都很沮丧，

that they're not able to get closer to see what's going on.

因为他们不能靠得更近看看到底是怎样的情况。

JA: But that is about to change.

吉姆： 但是这个将会得到改变。

In record time,

以创纪录的速度，

a team of architects and construction workers

一支由建筑师和建筑工人组成的队伍

designed and built a viewing platform to ease the frustration

设计并建造了一个观景台来缓解这种沮丧--

and bring people closer.

可以让人们走的更近了。

Man: They'll get an incredible panorama

某男子： 人们将会看到一个难以置信的场景。

and understand, I think more completely,

我想人们可以更加深刻的感受到，

the sheer totality of the destruction of the place.

世贸中心倒塌后的整体面貌。

JA: If you think about it, Ground Zero is unlike

吉姆： 如果你稍微想想，你会发现世贸废墟中心并不像

most any other tourist site in America.

美国其他绝大多数的旅游景点。

Unlike the Grand Canyon or the Washington Monument,

不像大峡谷和华盛顿山，

people come here to see what's no longer there.

人们来到这里只是为了来看已经消失的东西。

David Rockwell: The first experience people will have here

大卫洛克威尔：人们看到这个的时候，第一个感受会是，

when they see this is not as a construction site

这个不像是个建筑工地，

but as this incredibly moving burial ground.

而是一个难以置信的移动墓地。

JA: The walls are bare by design, so people can fill them

吉姆： 那些墙被设计成光秃秃的。这样人们可以在上面写上

with their own memorials the way they already have

他们自己的悼词，就像他们已经在

along the current perimeter.

周围写的那样。

Tourist: From our hearts, it affected us just as much.

游客： 这些悼词深深触动了我们的心扉。

JA: The ramps are made of simple material --

吉姆： 那些斜坡是用简单的材料搭建而成的--

the kind of plywood you see at construction sites --

就是你在建筑工地可以看到的那种夹板--

which is really the whole point.

这个就是真正的重点。

In the face of America's worst destruction

在面对美国所遭受的最严重的破坏的同时，

people are building again.

人们又开始重建。

Jim Axelrod, CBS News, New York.

吉姆·阿克吉姆艾克斯罗德，哥伦比亚广播公司，在纽约报道。

KA: This is not an obvious subject to be in the sensuality segment,

库尔特： 这个观景台并不是一个明显注重感官享受的建筑，

but certainly David you are known as -- I know, a phrase you hate --

但是大卫，众所周知--我知道你讨厌这个词--

an entertainment architect.

你是一个娱乐场所建筑师。

Your work is highly sensual, even hedonistic.

你的作品都是很注重感官享受， 甚至是追求享乐主义的。

DR: I like that word.

大卫： 我喜欢这个词。

KA: It's about pleasure -- casinos and hotels and restaurants.

库尔特： 好吧。 你的作品都是关于享受的--像赌场，酒店和餐厅。

How did the shock that all of us -- and especially all of us in New York --

对于我们--尤其是我们纽约人

felt on the 11th of September transmute

911所带来的震惊

into your desire to do this thing?

是怎么促使你改变从而渴望去做这样一件事情的呢？

DR: Well the truth of the matter is, post-September 11th,

大卫： 其实真实的原因是这样的。 911之后，

I felt myself in the role originally --

我去感受我自己原本真实的角色--

first of all as someone who lives in Tribeca

首先我住在特里贝卡，

and whose neighborhood was devastated,

我的街坊邻居都被毁坏了，

and as someone who works less than a mile from there --

而且我还在离世贸中心不到一英里的地方上班--

that I was in the role of forcing 100 people who work with me

在我的公司里，我曾经要求100个人和我一起工作，

in my firm, to continue to have the same level of enthusiasm

一起怀着同样的热情

about creating the places we had been creating.

去创造我们一直以来创造的那些建筑。

In fact we're finishing a book which is called "Pleasure,"

事实上，我们将要完成一本可以称之为“享乐”的书，

which is about sensual pleasure in spaces.

内容是关于空间的感官享受。

But I've got to tell you -- it became impossible to do that.

但是我想告诉你--这本书变得不可能完成。

We were really paralyzed.

我们几乎都瘫痪了。

And I found myself the Friday after September 11th --

就在911后的礼拜五--

two days afterwards --

也就是事情发生两天之后--

literally unable to motivate anyone to do anything.

我发现自己基本上不能激励任何人去做任何事了。

We gave the office a few days off.

我们只好给员工放了几天假。

And in discussing this with other architects,

再跟其他的一些建筑师讨论这个问题的时候，

we had seen people saying in the press

我们发现人们在媒体上说

that they should rebuild the towers as they were --

那些塔楼应该按原来的样子重建起来--

they should rebuild them 50 stories taller.

甚至要比原来还要高50层。

And I thought it was astonishing to speculate,

在我看来，真是令人吃惊的想法，

as if this were a competition,

你可以想象这就像一场竞赛，

on something that was such a fresh wound.

就在我们刚刚受伤的伤口上竞赛。

And I had a series of discussions --

对于这个我有过一系列的讨论--

first with Rick Scofidio and Liz Diller, who collaborated with us on this,

首先和里克斯科菲迪奥和利兹迪勒，他们和我合作建造这个项目，

and several other people --

还有一些其他人--

and really felt like we had to find relevance in doing something.

我真的觉得我们必须找到共同点来一起做点什么。

And that as people who create places, the ultimate way to help

对于建筑师来说，最终施与帮助的方式

wasn't to pontificate or to make up scenarios,

不是武断的发表意见或者虚构一些方案，

but to help right now.

而是立刻采取实质性的行动。

So we tried to come up with a way,

所以我们尝试采用一种方式，

as a group, to have a kind of design SWAT team.

像一个整体，组成一支类似特警一样的设计团队。

And that was the mission that we came up with.

这个就是我们提出来的任务。

KA: Were you conscious of suddenly --

库尔特： 你是突然意识到--

as a designer whose work is all about fulfilling wants --

作为一个一直去满足人们欲望的设计师--

suddenly fulfilling needs?

转而去满足人们的需要吗？

DR: Well what I was aware of was,

大卫： 坦白讲，我所知道的是，

there was this overwhelming need to act now.

有种马上采取行动的迫切需求。

And we were asked to participate in a few projects before this.

在这之前，我们就被邀请参与一些项目。

There was a school, PS 234, that had been evacuated down at Ground Zero.

有个原本在世贸废墟中心的叫PS 234 的学校被疏散了。

They moved to an abandoned school.

他们搬迁到一个废弃的学校。

We took about 20 or 30 architects and designers and artists,

我们找到2，30个建筑师，设计者和艺术家，

and over four days -- it was like this urban barn-raising --

花了超过4天的时间--就像这个城市的房屋建造一样--

to renovate it, and everyone wanted to help.

去翻新那个学校。每个人都想帮忙。

It was just extraordinary.

确实非同一般。

Tom Otterness contributed, Maira Kalman contributed

汤姆奥特尼斯做出了贡献，迈拉卡尔曼也做出了贡献。

and it became this cathartic experience for us.

对于我们来说，这个成了一次很痛快的经历。

KA: And that was done, effectively,

库尔特：那个项目最后很有效率的完成了，只花了3个礼拜的时间--

by October 8 or something?

差不多在10月8号之前，是吗？

DR: Yeah.

大卫： 是的。

KA: Obviously, what you faced in trying to do something

库尔特： 很明显，在试图建造

as substantial as this project -- and this is only one of four

这个实质性的项目的同时你会面对很多事情--短片上看到的只是

that you've designed to surround the site --

你设计的环绕废墟四周的观景台的四分之一--

you must have run up against the incredibly byzantine,

你一定遇到不少困难吧，

entrenched bureaucracy and powers that be

在同那些关系复杂又盘根错节的官僚和权力部门

in New York real estate and New York politics.

纽约房地产界和政界打交道的时候？

DR: Well, it's a funny thing.

大卫： 确实是件很有趣的事情。

We finished PS 234, and had dinner with a small group.

我们完成PS 234 的项目之后，同一个小组一起吃了晚饭。

I was actually asked to be a committee chair on an AIA committee to rebuild.

实际上我被邀请担任友邦保险有限公司重建委员会的主席。

And I sat in on several meetings.

之后我参加了一些会议。

And there were the most circuitous grand plans

很多冗长的宏伟计划被提出来，

that had to do with long-term infrastructure and rebuilding the entire city.

都是与长期的基础建设和整个城市的重建相关。

And the fact is that there were immediate wounds and needs that needed to be filled,

实际的问题是，有很多紧迫的创伤和需求需要被抚慰和满足。

and there was talk about inclusion and wanting it to be an inclusive process.

其中有个谈话是关于广泛性的，他们希望重建是一个广泛性的进程。

And it wasn't an inclusive group.

然而它并不是一个广泛代表性的组织。

So we said, what is --

所以我们说，什么是--

KA: It was not an inclusive group?

库尔特： 它不是一个广泛性的组织？

DR: It was not an inclusive group.

大卫： 它不是。

It was predominantly a white, rich, corporate group

它是由白人，富人和公司集团组成的组织

that was not representative of the city.

几乎不具有城市代表性。

KA: Shocking.

库尔特： 令人吃惊！

DR: Yeah, surprising.

大卫： 确实很令人吃惊。

So Rick and Liz and Kevin and I came up with the idea.

所以里克，利兹和我想出了那个方案。

The city actually approached us.

实际上是市政府先找到我们说这个事情。

We first approached the city about Pier 94.

我们开始找到市政府是谈论94号码头的事。

We saw how PS 234 worked.

因为我们已经看到了PS 234 的项目是怎么做的。

The families -- the victims of the families --

而那些家属--遇害者的家属--

were going to this pier that was incredibly dehumanizing.

都去那个码头，选择这个地方是非常不合理的。

KA: On the Hudson River?

库尔特：在亨登河？

DR: Yeah. And the city actually -- through Tim Zagat initially,

大卫： 是的。市政府实际上--一开始通过蒂姆扎加特，

and then through Christyne Nicholas, then we got to Giuliani --

然后通过克里斯特尼尼古拉斯, 最后我们找到朱利安尼市长--

said, "You know we don't want to do anything with Pier 94 right now,

他说我们暂时不想对94号码头做什么事情，

but we have an observation platform for the families down at Ground Zero

但是如果我们能在世贸废墟中心给那些家属提供一个观景台，

that we'd like to be a more dignified experience for the families,

那将是给那些家属们一个更加人性化的体验，

and a way to protect it from the weather."

可以让他们避免风吹日晒。

So I went down there with Rick and Liz and Kevin,

所以我同里克，利兹和凯文去了那里。

and I've got to say, it was the most moving experience of my life.

我不得不说，这是我生命中最感动的一次经历。

It was devastating to see the simple plywood platform with a rail around it,

看着简单的夹板和围栏搭成的平台，真是很让人触动

where the families of the victims had left notes to them.

上面还有遇害者的家属留下的话语。

And there was no mediation between us and the experience.

在我们和这里的一切经历中无需任何调节

There was no filter.

没有任何的过滤。

And I remembered on September 11th, on 14th Street,

我记得9月11号，在14号街，

the roof of our building -- we can see the World Trade Towers prominently --

我们的楼房屋顶上--我们可以清晰的看到世贸大厦--

and I saw the first building collapse from a conference room

那时我看到了第一栋楼房倒塌

on the eighth floor on a TV that we had set up.

就在8楼会议室安装的电视上。

And then everyone was up on the roof, so I ran up there.

然后所有人都跑到屋顶上，我也跑上去了。

And it was amazing how much harder it was

真的非常令人惊讶，

to believe in real life than it was on TV.

比起在电视上看到的场景，真的很难相信它会在现实生活中发生。

There was something about the comfort of the filter

有种关于过滤的安慰。

and how much information was between us and the experience.

在我们和现实体验之间有太多的信息。

So seeing this in a very simple,

所以说通过这种简单

dignified way was a very powerful experience.

而又威严的方式观看是一种非常强大的体验。

So we went back to the city and said

所以后来我们又回到市政府那里，跟他们说，

we're not particularly interested in the upgrade of this as a VIP platform,

我们现在对把94号码头升级成贵宾看台的想法一点兴趣都没有，

but we've spent some time down there.

但是我们确实在这件事上花了些时间。

At the same time the city had this need.

同时市政府也有这样的需要。

They were looking for a solution

他们想要找到一个方案

to deal with 30 or 40 thousand people a day

去处理每天3,4万

who were going down there, that had nowhere to go.

去那里又没有其它地方可去的人群。

And there was no way to deal with the traffic around the site.

同时他们也没有办法去控制废墟周围的交通。

So dealing with it is just an immediate master plan.

所以解决这个问题成了一个迫在眉睫的总体规划。

There was a way -- there had to be a way --

那里应该有一个通道--而且必须有个通道--

to get people to move around the site.

让人们在废墟周围移动起来。

KA: But then you've got to figure out a way --

库尔特： 但是之后你必须找出一个办法--

we will skip over the insanely tedious process of getting permits

我们就跳过那些获得批准

and getting everybody on board -- but simply funding this thing.

和让每个人各就各位的令人疯狂而厌烦的过程--简单来讲关于钱这个事情。

It looks like a fairly simple thing,

虽然看上去是个相当简单的事情，

but this was a half a million dollar project?

但是怎么说这差不多也是个50万美元的项目吧？

DR: Well, we knew that if it wasn't privately funded,

大卫： 确实。我们知道如果没有私人出资的话，

it wasn't going to happen.

它将没法实现。

And we also, frankly, knew that if it didn't happen

坦白来讲，我们也知道如果不能

by the end of the Giuliani administration,

在朱利安尼市长任期内启动，

then everyone who we were dealing with at the DOT

我们得重新和那些政府人员打交道，

and the Police Department and all of the --

包括交通部，警察局，所有这些政府部门的人--

we were meeting with 20 or 30 people with the city at a time,

我们每次开会的2，30个政府部门的人一起。

and it was set up by the Office of Emergency Management.

后来是应急管理办公室启动了这个项目。

This incredible act on their part, because they really wanted this,

对于他们来说确实是个很好的举措，因为他们真的很需要这个，

and they sensed that this needed to happen.

而且他们察觉到这个势在必行。

KA: And there was therefore this ticking clock,

库尔特： 因此就有了这个时间截点了？

because Giuliani was obviously out three months after that.

我们知道朱莉安尼在那3个月后就离任了。

DR: Yeah. So the first thing we had to do was find a way to get this --

大卫： 是的。 所以我们要做的第一件事情就是通气--

we had to work with the families of the victims,

我们必须和遇难者家属一起

through the city, to make sure that they knew this was happening.

通过市政府，来确保他们都知道这个项目。

Because this didn't want to be a surprise.

因为我们不想这个项目让大家觉得突然。

And we also had to be as under the radar screen as we could be in New York,

而且我们还得在纽约尽可能的低调行事，

because the key was not raising a lot of objection

因为关键是不要引起很多的反对声音，

and sort of working as quietly as possible.

某种程度上尽可能悄悄地工作。

We came up with the idea of setting up a foundation,

我们想到建立基金，

mainly because when we found a contractor who would build this,

主要是因为当我们找到一个可能承建这个项目的承包商的时候，

he would not agree to do this, even if we would pay him the money.

他很可能不会同意做这个项目，即使我们会支付费用给他。

There needed to be a foundation in place.

所以我们需要一个基金。

So we came up with a foundation, and actually what happened was

于是我们就建立了一个基金，实际上主要是

one major developer in New York --

纽约一个大开发商--

KA: Who shall remain nameless, I guess?

库尔特： 我猜是谁甘愿隐姓埋名呢？

DR: Yeah. His initials are JS, and he owns Rockefeller Center,

大卫： 他的名字首字母是JS，而且他拥有洛克菲勒中心，

if that helps anyone -- volunteered to help.

希望这个可以帮大家猜猜--他志愿帮助我们。

And we met with him.

后来我们和他见面。

The prices from the contractors were between five to 700,000 dollars.

承包商们的报价从5美元到70万美元都有。

And Atlantic-Heydt, who's the largest scaffolding contractor in the country,

而美国最大的脚手架承包商亚特南迪克海特，

volunteered to do it at cost.

志愿以成本价承建这个项目。

So this developer said, "You know what, we'll underwrite the entire expense."

所以那个大开发商说：“你知道吗，我们会支付整个费用。”

And we said, "That's incredible!"

而我们说：“真是好极了！”

And I think this was the 21st,

我想那天是21号，

and we knew this had to be built and up by the 28th.

而我们知道这个观景台必须在28号之前完工。

And we had to start construction the next day.

我们必须在第二天就开始建造。

We had a meeting that evening with his contractor of choice,

那天晚上我们跟那个承包商开了个会，

and the contractor showed up with the drawings of the platform

那个承包商展示了观景台的草图，

about half the size that we had drawn it.

可是它只有我们设计的一半大小。

KA: Sort of like the Spinal Tap scene where you get

库尔特：我猜有点像脊椎塔里的场景，

the tiny little Stonehenge, I guess?

从那里可以看到微小的巨石阵？

(Laughter)

（笑）

DR: In fact, it was as if this was going to be window-washing scaffolding.

大卫： 实际上，它就像一个为擦窗户准备的脚手架。

There was no sense of the fact that this is next to Saint Paul --

一点都不符合当时的场景--紧挨着圣保罗教堂--

that this is really a place that needs to be kind of dignified,

那是一个需要庄严的地方，

and a place to reflect and remember.

一个需要尊重和纪念的地方。

And I've got to say that we spent a lot of time

我不得不说我们花了那么多时间

in putting this together, watching the crowds that gathered at Saint Paul --

把这个搭建起来，看着那些聚集在圣保罗大教堂的拥挤的人群--

which is just to the right -- and moving around the site.

正好在右边--在废墟周围移动

And I live down there, so we spent a lot of time looking at the need.

我住在那里，所以我们花了很长的时间去了解人们的需要。

And I think people were amazed at two things --

我想人们会因为两个事情而感到震惊--

I think they were amazed at the destruction,

他们会因破坏而感到震惊，

but I think there was a sense of disbelief

但是我想人们也会因怀疑

about the heroics of New Yorkers that I found very moving.

纽约人感人的英雄主义而感到震惊。

Just the sort of everyday heroics of New Yorkers.

就是某种纽约人的日常的英雄主义。

So we were in this meeting and the contractor literally said,

所以在那个会议上，那个承包商着字着句的说，

"I'm going to lock the door, because this developer

“我要把门锁起来，因为开发商

will not agree to have you leave till you've signed off on this."

不会同意在你们签订这个合约之前放你们走的。”

And we said, "Well, this is half the size,

而我们说：“但是这只有一半大小，

it doesn't have any of the design features

也没有我们之前同意的任何设计特色

that have been agreed upon by everyone -- everyone in the city.

包括城市里的每一个人。

We'd have to go back to the beginning to do this."

我们必须从头开始做这个项目。”

And I convinced him that we should leave the room

最后我说服了他，在我们离开会议室之前

with the agreement to build it as designed.

我们达成一致，按照原先的设计重新建造。

The next day I got an email from the developer

第二天我收到开发商的邮件，

saying that he was withdrawing all funding.

他说要撤掉所有的资金。

So we didn't know what to do,

我们不知道怎么办，

but we decided to cast a very wide net.

但是我们决定要撒一张大网。

We emailed out letters to as many people as we could --

我们给尽可能多的人发了邮件--

several people in the audience here -- who were very helpful.

包括很多在场的听众--他们都提供了很好的帮助。

KA: There was no thought of abandoning ship at that point?

库尔特： 那个时候就没有想过要放弃吗？

DR: No. In fact I told the contractor to go ahead.

大卫： 没有。事实上，我告诉那个承包商继续施工。

He had already ordered materials based on my go-ahead.

他也已经按照我的要求订购了材料。

We knew that one way or another this was going to happen.

我们知道不管怎么样，这个项目总会完成。

And we just felt it had to happen.

我们只是觉得它必须完成。

KA: You were funding it yourself and with contributions and this foundation.

库尔特： 后来你就自己出资，连同一些捐助和这个基金完成这个项目。

Richard, I think very correctly,

我记得理查德

made the point at the beginning --

在刚开始就提到--

before all the chair designers came out --

就是在所有的项目首席设计师意识到之前--

about the history of chair designers imposing aesthetic solutions

他说一直以来首席设计师

on this kind of universal, banal, common problem of sitting.

对这种很平常的设计问题都追求一种审美方案。

It seems to me with this,

但是对我来说，

that it was the opposite of that.

这个项目却恰恰相反。

This was an unprecedented, singular design problem.

因为这是个前所未有的，独一无二的设计问题。

DR: Well here's the issue:

大卫： 确实，这就是问题所在。

we knew that this was not in the sense of --

我们知道这个项目确实没有审美的特色--

we think about the site, and think about the need for a memorial.

我们考虑了这个遗址，考虑到人们可能需要一种纪念碑一样的东西。

It was important that this not be categorized as a memorial.

但是有一点很重要，这个项目不是一种纪念物。

That this was a place for people to reflect, to remember --

而是供人们来凭吊和纪念的场所--

a kind of quiet place.

很肃穆的场所。

So it led us to using design solutions

这就使得我们选用了这种设计方案，

that created as few filters between the viewer --

尽可能少的在观众和真实的体验之间产生过滤--

as we said about the families' platform -- and the experience as possible.

就像我们之前说的家属看台一样。

It's all incredibly humble material.

这个看台全都是用难以置信的普通的材料，

It's scaffolding and plywood.

就是脚手架和夹板。

And it allows -- by sort of the procession of the movement,

它可以使得观众移动起来，

up by Saint Paul's and down the other side --

可以上到圣保罗教堂那边然后从另一边下去。

it gives you about 300 feet to go up 13 feet from the ground

它提供了300英尺长的通道，并可以把你带到离地13英尺的高度，

to where you get the 360 degree view.

从那里可以看到360度的视角。

But the design was driven by a need to be quick, cheap, safe, respectful, flexible.

但是这个设计一直考虑到快速，廉价，安全，庄严和灵活性方面的需求。

One of the other things is this is designed to be moveable.

这其中的一个要求就是可以移动。

Because when we looked at the four platforms around the site,

因为当我们看到废墟周围的四个平台，

one of which is an upgrade of the families' platform,

其中一个是从家属看台更新而来的，

we knew that these had to be moveable

所以我们考虑到这些必须可以移动，

to respond to changing conditions,

来应对不停改变的环境，

and the changing definition of what Ground Zero is.

和对于世贸废墟中心是什么的这种定义的改变。

KA: Your work -- I mean, we've talked about this before --

库尔特： 你的作品--我们之前已经讨论过这个问题--

a lot of your work, I think, is informed by your belief in, or your focus on

我想很多你的作品都是基于你的一种信念，或者说你专注于

the temporariness of all things and the evanescence of things,

表现所有事物的临时性和短暂性。

and a kind of "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die,"

像“吃，喝，享乐，因为我们明天可能就会死”，

sort of sense of existence.

这种及时行乐的观念。

This is clearly not a work for the ages.

而这明显不是一个会长久存在的作品。

You know, a couple of years this thing isn't going to be here.

你知道，很多年之后，这个东西将不会存在了。

Did that require, as an architect,

作为一个建筑师，

a new way of thinking about what you were doing?

这会要求你重新思考你那时正在做的东西吗？

To think of it as this purely temporary installation?

去把它作为一个纯粹的临时性的建筑来考虑？

DR: No, I don't think so.

大卫： 我不这样认为。

I think this is, obviously, substantially different

在我看来，这个是有实质性的不同

from anything we'd ever thought about doing before, just by the nature of it.

相对于我们之前做的任何项目比起来

Where it overlaps with thoughts about our work in general is,

一般来讲，除了对于我们工作的一些想法之外，

number one -- the notion of collaboration as a sort of way to get things done.

还有一个重要的概念--就是以某种方式联合起来一起把事情完成的概念。

And Kevin Kennon, Rick Scofidio, Liz Diller

凯文肯农，里克斯科菲迪奥,利兹迪勒

and all the people within the city --

和城市里的所有人--

Norman Lear, who I spoke to four hours before our deadline for funding,

诺曼李尔, 在我们寻找资金的截止日期前的4个小时，我在跟他谈话，

offered to give us a bridge loan to help us get through it.

他提供我们短期过度贷款来帮我们顺利度过难关。

So the notion of collaboration --

回到前面说的合作的概念--

I think this reinforces how important that is.

我想这个例子更加印证了这个概念的重要性。

And in terms of the temporary nature of it,

对于你所说的短暂性，

our goal was not to create something

我们的目标不是去建造一个

that would be there longer than it needed to be.

比对它的实际需求还要长的建筑。

I think what we were most interested in was promoting a kind of dialogue

我想我们最感兴趣的是促进一种关于这个城市正在发生的事情的对话，

that we felt may not have been happening enough in this city,

我觉得这种对话目前在这个城市还不够。

about what's really happening there.

它是关于这个城市正在发生的事情的。

And a day or two before it opened was Giuliani's farewell address,

在这个观景台开放的前一两天，正好是朱利安尼的离任致辞，

where he proposed the idea of all of Ground Zero being a memorial.

他提出一个想法，把整个世贸废墟中心建成一个纪念碑。

Which was very controversial, but it resonated with a lot of people.

虽然这个想法引起了很大的争议，但是它也在很多人之间引起了共鸣。

And I think regardless of what the position is about how

我想不管那个地方是关于什么，

this sacred piece of land is to be used,

不管这片神圣的土地将作何用途，

having it come out of actually seeing it in a real encounter,

只要让人们的想法产生碰撞，

I think makes it a more powerful dialogue.

这就成了一个非常强有力的对话。

And that's what we were interested in.

而这个就是我们所感兴趣的。

So that, very much, is in the realm of things

所以说，也是属于

I've been interested in before.

我之前一直感兴趣的领域。

KA: It seems to me, among other things, a lovely piece of civic infrastructure.

库尔特： 在我看来，跟其他的建筑物相比，这是一件很可爱的市政基础建设。

It enables that conversation to get serious.

它使对话变得严肃。

And six months after the fact --

就在袭击之后的6个月--

and only a few months away from the site being cleaned --

也就是废墟被清理干净后的几个月--

we are very quickly, now, getting to the point

我们就很快的让

where those conversations about what should go there are getting serious.

关于在废墟上建什么的谈话变得严肃而认真。

Do you have -- having been as physically involved in the site

作为一个建筑师，已经深入到废墟现场，

as you have been doing this project -- have any ideas about

去做这个项目，那么关于这个废墟--你有没有什么建议关于

what should or shouldn't be done?

应该做什么，不应该做什么？

DR: Well, I think one thing that shouldn't be done is evaluate --

大卫： 我想有一件事情是不应该做的，那就是评价--

I think right now the discussion is a very closed discussion on the master plan.

我发现现在的讨论都非常接近关于总体规划的讨论。

The Protetch Gallery recently had a show on ideas for buildings,

最近普罗德施画廊举办了一个关于建筑理念的展览，

which had some sort of inventive ideas of buildings.

那里有些很新的建筑理念。

KA: But it had some really terrible ideas.

库尔特： 但是也有很多糟糕的理念。

DR: And it also felt a little bit like a kind of competition of ideas,

大卫： 它有点像个观念的竞赛，

where I think the focus of ideas should be on master planning and uses.

我想理念的焦点应该放在总体的规划和使用上。

And I think there should be a broader -- which there's starting to be --

我想应该有一个更加宽广的思路--就像正在开始改变的那样。

the dialogue is really opening up to,

对话真的正在展开，

what does this site really want to be?

关于这个废墟到底应该变成什么？

And I truly believe until the issue of memorial is sorted out,

我坚持认为，除非关于建纪念碑的想法被放弃了，

that it's going to be very hard to have an intelligent discussion.

不然很难有什么明智的讨论。

There's a few discussions right now that I think are very positive,

现在有一些讨论我觉得非常的可行，

about depressing the West Side Highway and connecting this over,

关于降下西边高速公路，然后把这里连接起来，

so that there's one uninterrupted piece of land.

这样就有一个不受干扰的地方了。

KA: Well, I think that's interesting.

库尔特： 这个想法很有趣。

And it gets to another issue that was probably inappropriate

它让我想起另外一个问题，可能并不是很合适

to discuss six months ago, but perhaps isn't now,

在六个月前讨论，但是现在也许可以了。

which is, not many of us love the World Trade Center as a piece of architecture,

我们很多人并不喜欢这个城市里有世贸中心这个建筑，

as what it had done to this city and that huge plaza.

还有那个巨大的广场。

Is this an opportunity, is the silver lining --

你觉得现在是一个机会吗--

a silver lining, here -- to rebuild

很有希望的机会--去重建

some more traditional city grid, or not?

一些更加传统的城市建筑？

DR: I think there's a real opportunity to engage

大卫： 我想这倒真是一个机会开始讨论

in a discussion of why we live in cities.

我们为什么居住在城市。

And why do we live in places where such dissimilar people

为什么我们住在这样一个地方，如此不一样的人

collide up against us each day?

每天彼此之间都有很多冲突？

I don't think it has much to do with 50 or 60 or 70 or 80 thousand new office spaces,

我不认为新建5万，6万，7万，或者8万新办公室有多少意义，

regardless of what the number is.

不管你建多少。

So yeah, I think there is a chance to re-look at how we think about cities.

所以说，这是一个机会，重新审视我们是怎样看待城市。

And in fact, there's a proposal on the table now for building number seven.

事实上，已经有一个方案在讨论，是关于新建7号楼的。

KA: Which was the building just north of the Towers?

库尔特： 就是世贸塔楼北边的那个建筑？

DR: Right, which the towers fell into.

大卫： 对的，塔楼正好倒在它的上面。

And the reason that's been held up is essentially by community outrage

之所以一直耽搁主要是因为来自于社区居民的愤怒

that they're not re-opening the street

他们一直关闭街道。

to connect that back to the rest of the city.

这个街道是连接城市的。

I think a public dialogue -- I think, you know,

所以我想要一个公开的对话--你知道的，

I'd like to see an international competition,

我想看到一个国际化的竞争，

and a call for ideas for uses.

来征集建设方案。

KA: Whether it's arts, whether it's housing,

库尔特： 不论它是艺术品，房屋，

whether it's what amount of shopping?

还是大量的商场吗？

DR: Right. And we're looking for other things.

大卫： 对的。我们正在探索其他的东西。

This small foundation we put together is looking for other ways to help.

我们所建立的这个小基金正在寻求其他能够帮助的方式。

Including taking a small piece adjacent to the site

比如，在废墟附近找块小地方，

and inviting 10 architects who currently don't have a voice

邀请10个目前在纽约还没有声望的建筑师

in New York to do artist housing.

来作为艺术家住房。

And find other ways to encourage the discussion

同时寻找其他的方式鼓励更多的讨论

to be against sort of monolithic, single solutions,

来反对单一的方案，

and more about a multiplicity of things.

我们需要更多关于事物的多样性。

KA: Before we end, I know you have a piece of digital video

库尔特： 在我们结束之前，我知道你还有一个短片要展示

of the experience of being on this platform?

是关于在这个观景台上的真实体验的

DR: John Kamen -- who's here, actually -- put together

大卫： 约翰卡门--就是短片上这个人--做了一个

a two and a half minute piece that shows the platform in use.

2分半钟的短片来展示这个看台。

So I thought that would be good to end with.

所以我认为这是个很好的结束方式。

DR: We're looking from Fulton Street, west.

大卫： 我们正从富尔顿街的西面看过去。

One of the tricky issues we had with the Giuliani administration

在我们和朱利安尼之间有个很有意思的问题，

was I had forgotten how anti-graffiti he was.

我之前忘记了朱利安尼非常反对涂鸦。

And essentially our structure was designed to be written on.

而实质上我们的建筑就是用来涂写的。

KA: As you say, it's not a memorial.

库尔特： 就像你说的，它不是一个纪念碑。

But were you conscious of memorials? The Vietnam Memorial?

但是你之前有考虑过纪念碑吗？比如越战纪念碑？

Those kinds of forms?

这之类的一些形式？

DR: We certainly did as much research as we could,

大卫： 我们当然是做了尽可能多的研究，

and we were conscious of other memorials.

我们也关注过其他的一些纪念碑。

And also the complexity and length of time they really take to do.

我们研究了它们的复杂性和实际上花费的时间。

It's 350 people on the committee for Oklahoma City,

实际上是因为俄克拉何马州的委员会上的350个人，

which is why we thought of this as a sort of ad-hoc, spontaneous solution

让我们觉得这个应该是自己组织的，自发的方案

that expanded on Union Square

来作为联合广场的延伸

and the places that were ad-hoc memorials in the city already.

也是这个城市里一个自发组织的纪念碑。

The scaffolding you can see built up over the street is de-mountable.

你可以看到建在那个街道上方的脚手架，它是可以拆卸的。

What's interesting now is the nature of the site has totally changed,

有趣的是，现在那个废墟的自然面貌已经彻底改变了，

so that what you're aware of

以至你们现在所注意到的

is not just the destruction of the buildings in Ground Zero,

不是在世贸中心的一些倒塌建筑物的碎块，

but all of the buildings around it --

而是围绕在废墟周围的建筑--

and the scars on the building around it, which are enormous.

和它周围建筑上的伤痕，那些巨大的伤痕。

This shows Saint Paul's on the left.

这左边就是圣保罗教堂。

KA: I just want to thank you on behalf of New Yorkers

库尔特： 感谢你代表纽约人

for making this happen and getting this done.

能够促成这件事情。

But the kind of virtually instantaneous nature of its erection,

但是对于这个建筑的瞬时性，

and its being there,

和它的存在，

almost before you could believe

甚至在你可以相信

that a response of this magnitude could be accomplished,

如此宏大的一个项目可以被完成之前，

is part of its extraordinary --

我想这些就是它的非凡特性的一部分--

I don't know if beauty is the word --

我不知道用美丽这个词是不是合适--

but presence.

但是对于它的意义来讲完全合适。

DR: It was an honor to do.

大卫： 能做这个项目也是我的荣幸。

And we were thrilled to be able to show it here.

我们也很激动能够在这里展示给大家。