David Rockwell: Building the Ground Zero viewing platform

譯者: Marie Wu 審譯者: Spencer Shu

Kurt Andersen: Like many architects, David is a hog for the limelight

科特：就像許多建築師一樣，大衛一直都是鎂光燈注目的焦點，

but is sufficiently reticent -- or at least pretends to be --

但他卻不愛說話，或者說他假裝不愛說話，

that he asked me to question him rather than speaking.

因為他希望我問他問題，而不是直接發表演說。

In fact what we're going to talk about,

而我們現在要談的話題，

I think, is in fact a subject that is probably better served

我覺得和正式的演說比較起來，

by a conversation than an address.

或許輕鬆的談話會更適合。

And I guess we have a bit of news clip to precede.

我想我們先來看一段新聞剪輯。

Dan Rather: Since the September 11th attack on the World Trade Center,

丹拉瑟：自從911世貿中心遭受攻擊之後，

many people have flocked to downtown New York to see

許多人都聚集到紐約市中心，

and pay respects at what amounts to the 16-acre burial ground.

以朝聖的心情來觀看這個6萬5千平方公尺的世貿遺址。

Now, as CBS's Jim Axelrod reports, they're putting the finishing touches

根據CBS記者吉姆．艾斯羅德的報導，目前這裡已在搭建

on a new way for people to visit and view the scene.

一個新的平台，讓人們得以參觀世貿遺址。

Jim Axelrod: Forget the Empire State Building or the Statue of Liberty.

吉姆．艾斯羅德：除了帝國大廈和自由女神像之外，

There's a new place in New York

現在紐約又有了一個新地標，

where the crowds are thickest -- Ground Zero.

聚集了無數的人們--就是世貿遺址。

Tourist: I've taken my step-daughter here from Indianapolis.

遊客：我和我的繼女從印第安那波里斯來到這裡，

This was -- out of all the tourist sites in New York City --

這是所有紐約的著名景點裡，

this was her number-one pick.

她心目中的第一名選擇。

JA: Thousands now line up on lower Broadway.

吉姆：有數千名的遊客一路排隊排到了百老匯下城。

Tourist: I've been wanting to come down here since this happened.

遊客：我從911之後，就一直想來這裡。

JA: Even on the coldest winter days.

吉姆：即使在最寒冷的冬天，

To honor and remember.

還是有人來紀念死去的親人。

Tourist: It's reality, it's us. It happened here.

遊客：恐怖攻擊真的發生在我們身上，就在這裡，

This is ours.

這是我們的記憶。

JA: So many, in fact, that seeing has become

吉姆：有這麼多遊客來到這裡，

a bit of a problem.

參觀成了一件難事。

Tourist: I think that people are very frustrated

遊客：我覺得大家都很難過，

that they're not able to get closer to see what's going on.

因為沒有辦法再靠近一點，看看發生了什麼事。

JA: But that is about to change.

吉姆：這一切即將改變。

In record time,

一群建築師

a team of architects and construction workers

和建築工人，正以破紀錄的速度，

designed and built a viewing platform to ease the frustration

設計並建造一個觀景平台，以解除大家的困擾，

and bring people closer.

大家可以更靠近地觀看這個遺址。

Man: They'll get an incredible panorama

男性：遊客可以看到一覽無遺的景觀，

and understand, I think more completely,

我認為可以更全面地看到

the sheer totality of the destruction of the place.

整個破壞後的遺址全貌。

JA: If you think about it, Ground Zero is unlike

吉姆：想想看，世貿遺址和全美

most any other tourist site in America.

其他的觀光景點截然不同，

Unlike the Grand Canyon or the Washington Monument,

這不是大峽谷或是華盛頓紀念碑，

people come here to see what's no longer there.

大家是要來看已經不存在的東西。

David Rockwell: The first experience people will have here

大衛：人們來到這裡參觀，

when they see this is not as a construction site

他們的第一個印象是這不是一個建築工地，

but as this incredibly moving burial ground.

而是一個觸動人心的廢墟遺址。

JA: The walls are bare by design, so people can fill them

吉姆：這些牆面是故意裸露出來的，

with their own memorials the way they already have

人們可以用自己的方式來進行悼念，

along the current perimeter.

延續原先的悼念圍牆。

Tourist: From our hearts, it affected us just as much.

遊客：看這些悼念文句，真的引發我們內心深深的感觸。

JA: The ramps are made of simple material --

吉姆：平台表面是用輕便的材料搭建而成，

the kind of plywood you see at construction sites --

就是我們一般在建築工地所看到的那種合成板材而已，

which is really the whole point.

但這才是重點。

In the face of America's worst destruction

這象徵了我們在美國最大的廢墟遺址上，

people are building again.

又重新再站了起來。

Jim Axelrod, CBS News, New York.

以上是CBS新聞駐紐約記者吉姆．艾斯羅德的報導。

KA: This is not an obvious subject to be in the sensuality segment,

科特：這在感官上絕對不是一件突出的作品，

but certainly David you are known as -- I know, a phrase you hate --

大衛，尤其是你以往是被歸類為--嗯，你不太喜歡這個詞--

an entertainment architect.

娛樂業界的建築師。

Your work is highly sensual, even hedonistic.

你的作品一向充滿感性，甚至有點享樂主義的味道。

DR: I like that word.

大衛：我喜歡那個詞啊...

KA: It's about pleasure -- casinos and hotels and restaurants.

科特：好，反正就是有關休閒娛樂的建築，像是賭場、旅館和餐廳等。

How did the shock that all of us -- and especially all of us in New York --

911為我們所有人--尤其是在紐約的人--

felt on the 11th of September transmute

帶來了無比的震撼，

into your desire to do this thing?

這種震撼是如何激發你創造這個作品的呢？

DR: Well the truth of the matter is, post-September 11th,

大衛：嗯，事情的真相是，在911之後，

I felt myself in the role originally --

我覺得我自己起初的角色...

first of all as someone who lives in Tribeca

首先我是住在曼哈頓運河街南邊，

and whose neighborhood was devastated,

我附近的區域被摧毁了，

and as someone who works less than a mile from there --

我工作的地點離那裡也不到2公里，

that I was in the role of forcing 100 people who work with me

過去我扮演的角色是要求公司裡和我一起工作的100個同事，

in my firm, to continue to have the same level of enthusiasm

要持續以相同的熱情，

about creating the places we had been creating.

去創造過去以來我們一直在創造的空間建築。

In fact we're finishing a book which is called "Pleasure,"

事實上，我們完成了一本名為『樂趣』的書

which is about sensual pleasure in spaces.

就是要來談空間的感官樂趣。

But I've got to tell you -- it became impossible to do that.

但我得說，這本書可能永遠也不會出版了。

We were really paralyzed.

我們大家都嚇呆了。

And I found myself the Friday after September 11th --

我發現，我自己在911之後的那個星期五，

two days afterwards --

也就是911發生的二天後，

literally unable to motivate anyone to do anything.

我完全無法激勵任何人去做任何事情，

We gave the office a few days off.

所以我們讓大家休了幾天假。

And in discussing this with other architects,

而我和其他建築師討論時，

we had seen people saying in the press

看到媒體上有人說，

that they should rebuild the towers as they were --

應該要重建這些大樓，

they should rebuild them 50 stories taller.

甚至要比原來的大樓高上50層樓。

And I thought it was astonishing to speculate,

我覺得這種想法真是太不可思議了，

as if this were a competition,

這就像是一種競賽，

on something that was such a fresh wound.

而且是在我們才剛撕裂的傷口上比賽。

And I had a series of discussions --

所以我和很多人進行討論，

first with Rick Scofidio and Liz Diller, who collaborated with us on this,

首先是瑞克．斯可菲迪爾和里茲．迪勒，他們後來協助我們搭建了平台，

and several other people --

還有許多其他的人，

and really felt like we had to find relevance in doing something.

我們都一致覺得應該做些和911有關聯的事。

And that as people who create places, the ultimate way to help

而當人們要蓋一棟建築時，最好的幫手

wasn't to pontificate or to make up scenarios,

不會在那裡胡亂發表意見，或是憑空想像，

but to help right now.

而是提供直接的幫助。

So we tried to come up with a way,

所以我們想出一個辦法，

as a group, to have a kind of design SWAT team.

我們要組成一個設計的特種部隊，

And that was the mission that we came up with.

這就是我們要執行的任務。

KA: Were you conscious of suddenly --

科特：你有意識到...

as a designer whose work is all about fulfilling wants --

身為設計師，你們的工作就是要滿足別人的願望，

suddenly fulfilling needs?

滿足人們的需求嗎？

DR: Well what I was aware of was,

大衛：嗯，我所知道的是，

there was this overwhelming need to act now.

大家都迫切希望能有即刻的行動，

And we were asked to participate in a few projects before this.

而在這之前，我們已經受邀參與其他幾個專案，

There was a school, PS 234, that had been evacuated down at Ground Zero.

像是PS 234這間學校，他們被迫遷出世貿遺址，

They moved to an abandoned school.

暫時搬到一間廢棄的學校。

We took about 20 or 30 architects and designers and artists,

我們出動了大約20或30位建築師、設計師和藝術家，

and over four days -- it was like this urban barn-raising --

總共花了四天時間，就像在都市裡改建一座榖倉一樣，

to renovate it, and everyone wanted to help.

每一個人都願意幫忙。

It was just extraordinary.

真的很棒！

Tom Otterness contributed, Maira Kalman contributed

湯姆．歐特尼斯和麥拉．卡門都來幫忙了，

and it became this cathartic experience for us.

這真是一次很棒的經驗。

KA: And that was done, effectively,

科特：整個案子在三個星期內完成，

by October 8 or something?

是在十月八號左右完成的吧？

DR: Yeah.

大衛：對。

KA: Obviously, what you faced in trying to do something

科特：在你嚐試進行這麼重要的專案時，

as substantial as this project -- and this is only one of four

我們剛才所看的只不過是你所設計的

that you've designed to surround the site --

整個環繞式平台的四分之一而已，

you must have run up against the incredibly byzantine,

你一定會衝撞到紐約房地產界和政治圈

entrenched bureaucracy and powers that be

那種極為拜占廷式，且根深蒂固的官僚

in New York real estate and New York politics.

和權力體系吧？

DR: Well, it's a funny thing.

大衛：嗯，確實很有趣。

We finished PS 234, and had dinner with a small group.

在PS 234完工之後，我們有一小群人聚在一起吃晚飯，

I was actually asked to be a committee chair on an AIA committee to rebuild.

席間有人邀請我出任AIA重建委員會的主席，

And I sat in on several meetings.

而我參加了幾場會議，

And there were the most circuitous grand plans

他們所討論的都是很大型的計畫，

that had to do with long-term infrastructure and rebuilding the entire city.

要花很長的時間去進行基礎建設，重新改造這個城市。

And the fact is that there were immediate wounds and needs that needed to be filled,

但其實，有些傷口和渴望是我們得立刻去撫平或滿足的，

and there was talk about inclusion and wanting it to be an inclusive process.

有人問到這些傷口和渴望是什麼，希望我們都能納入，

And it wasn't an inclusive group.

但這個委員會本身就沒有足夠的包容性啊...

So we said, what is --

所以我們說...

KA: It was not an inclusive group?

科特：這不是個有包容性的委員會嗎？

DR: It was not an inclusive group.

大衛：這不是有包容性的委員會，

It was predominantly a white, rich, corporate group

這個委員會完全是由有錢的白人及企業主導，

that was not representative of the city.

不能代表整個城市。

KA: Shocking.

科特：真讓人意想不到！

DR: Yeah, surprising.

大衛：對啊，很意外吧？

So Rick and Liz and Kevin and I came up with the idea.

所以瑞克、里茲、凱文和我就想做出這個平台，

The city actually approached us.

其實是市政府先找上我們的，

We first approached the city about Pier 94.

我們一開始是和市政府接洽94號碼頭的事，

We saw how PS 234 worked.

因為我們已有PS 234的成功經驗。

The families -- the victims of the families --

那些受難者的家人，

were going to this pier that was incredibly dehumanizing.

要他們去這個碼頭真的很違背人性。

KA: On the Hudson River?

科特：是在哈德遜河上嗎？

DR: Yeah. And the city actually -- through Tim Zagat initially,

大衛：對，透過提姆．塞格的引介，

and then through Christyne Nicholas, then we got to Giuliani --

然後又透過克利斯汀．尼可拉斯，最後我們見到了朱利安尼，

said, "You know we don't want to do anything with Pier 94 right now,

市政府的意思是不想動94號碼頭，

but we have an observation platform for the families down at Ground Zero

但是想在世貿遺址上，為受難者家屬搭建一個觀景平台，

that we'd like to be a more dignified experience for the families,

讓受難者家屬能更有尊嚴，

and a way to protect it from the weather."

也讓參觀者的行程不受到惡劣天氣的影響。

So I went down there with Rick and Liz and Kevin,

所以瑞克、里茲、凱文和我就來到世貿遺址，

and I've got to say, it was the most moving experience of my life.

我必須承認，那是我這輩子覺得最感人的一次經驗，

It was devastating to see the simple plywood platform with a rail around it,

看著這個純用板材搭建出來的平台圍繞著世貿遺址，

where the families of the victims had left notes to them.

受難者在上面留下致受難者的悼念詞，那真的很感動。

And there was no mediation between us and the experience.

你可以真實地感受到那種感動，

There was no filter.

完全沒有經過過濾。

And I remembered on September 11th, on 14th Street,

我還記得，在911當天，我們在14街上，

the roof of our building -- we can see the World Trade Towers prominently --

在我們那棟大樓的屋頂上，原本可以看到世貿大樓聳立，

and I saw the first building collapse from a conference room

但我卻在我們八樓的會議室裡的電視上，

on the eighth floor on a TV that we had set up.

看到第一棟大樓倒塌，

And then everyone was up on the roof, so I ran up there.

那時每個人都在屋頂上，所以我也跑上去，

And it was amazing how much harder it was

我真的很難相信電視上所播出的畫面，

to believe in real life than it was on TV.

竟然就真實地發生在我眼前。

There was something about the comfort of the filter

有時媒體為了安撫大家，會故意對新聞做一些過濾，

and how much information was between us and the experience.

不知道有多少真實的事件被過濾掉了。

So seeing this in a very simple,

所以我們要大家用最真實的角度，

dignified way was a very powerful experience.

最誠敬的方式來看待這個意義非凡的場景。

So we went back to the city and said

最後，我們回到市政府，告訴他們，

we're not particularly interested in the upgrade of this as a VIP platform,

我們不想把94號碼頭升級成為VIP專屬的貴賓級平台，

but we've spent some time down there.

但我們己經投入不少時間在這上面了。

At the same time the city had this need.

剛好市政府也有這個需求，

They were looking for a solution

他們希望能想出辦法，

to deal with 30 or 40 thousand people a day

紓解每天三萬到四萬人次的參觀人潮，

who were going down there, that had nowhere to go.

這些人一定會來參觀遺址，但卻沒有地方可站。

And there was no way to deal with the traffic around the site.

由於世貿遺址週邊的人潮已造成問題，

So dealing with it is just an immediate master plan.

所以這件事變成當務之急，

There was a way -- there had to be a way --

我們必須想辦法

to get people to move around the site.

讓人們能在遺址週邊活動。

KA: But then you've got to figure out a way --

科特：後來你們想出了這個辦法--

we will skip over the insanely tedious process of getting permits

我想先跳過中間繁瑣的申請程序，

and getting everybody on board -- but simply funding this thing.

以及招募各種人才的程序，讓我們直接來談談資金的問題。

It looks like a fairly simple thing,

資金看起來似乎是最單純的事情，

but this was a half a million dollar project?

但這個專案花了50萬美元對吧？

DR: Well, we knew that if it wasn't privately funded,

大衛：嗯，我們認為如果不從私人機構籌措經費，

it wasn't going to happen.

這件事就辦不成。

And we also, frankly, knew that if it didn't happen

而且老實講，如果我們不能在

by the end of the Giuliani administration,

朱利安尼任內完成，

then everyone who we were dealing with at the DOT

那我們那時所接洽的交通部門、

and the Police Department and all of the --

警察部門和其他人都不會再配合協助了，

we were meeting with 20 or 30 people with the city at a time,

那時我們至少同時和市政府裡20到30個官員打交道。

and it was set up by the Office of Emergency Management.

整個計畫是由緊急應變辦公室所籌設，

This incredible act on their part, because they really wanted this,

這對公務機關來說真的很不尋常，因為他們太希望搭建這個平台了，

and they sensed that this needed to happen.

所以很積極地推動實現。

KA: And there was therefore this ticking clock,

科特：所以你們有時間壓力？

because Giuliani was obviously out three months after that.

朱利安尼在那之後三個月就要卸任了吧？

DR: Yeah. So the first thing we had to do was find a way to get this --

大衛：對，所以我們認為首要任務是去想出辦法--

we had to work with the families of the victims,

我們必須和受難者家屬一起合作，

through the city, to make sure that they knew this was happening.

所以我們透過市政府去讓他們知道我們正在進行這件事，

Because this didn't want to be a surprise.

我不希望他們覺得這一切很突然。

And we also had to be as under the radar screen as we could be in New York,

由於我們是在紐約進行這項工作，所以勢必會備受矚目，

because the key was not raising a lot of objection

所以我們想儘可能低調進行，

and sort of working as quietly as possible.

才不致引發太多反對的聲浪。

We came up with the idea of setting up a foundation,

我們後來想到去成立一個基金會，

mainly because when we found a contractor who would build this,

主要是我們找來會做這個工程的包商，

he would not agree to do this, even if we would pay him the money.

他並不願意接我們的案子，即便我們付錢給他也一樣，

There needed to be a foundation in place.

他只接基金會的案子。

So we came up with a foundation, and actually what happened was

所以我們想辦法成立了一個基金會，

one major developer in New York --

其實背後是一個紐約的重要開發商...

KA: Who shall remain nameless, I guess?

科特：他不想讓名字曝光吧？

DR: Yeah. His initials are JS, and he owns Rockefeller Center,

大衛：對，他的名字縮寫是JS，洛克斐勒中心是他名下的產業，

if that helps anyone -- volunteered to help.

希望你們猜得出來--他完全是自願幫忙。

And we met with him.

後來我們和他見了面。

The prices from the contractors were between five to 700,000 dollars.

工程包商的報價大約是介於50到70萬美元，

And Atlantic-Heydt, who's the largest scaffolding contractor in the country,

而全美最大的鷹架承包商亞特蘭提克-海德特

volunteered to do it at cost.

志願以成本價承攬工程，

So this developer said, "You know what, we'll underwrite the entire expense."

所以這個開發商就說：「好吧，剩下的錢就讓我們出好了。」

And we said, "That's incredible!"

我們說：「那真是太棒了！」

And I think this was the 21st,

那時候是21號，

and we knew this had to be built and up by the 28th.

我們預計要在28號搭建完成，

And we had to start construction the next day.

所以隔天就必須開始動工。

We had a meeting that evening with his contractor of choice,

我們當天傍晚就和他選定的包商開會，

and the contractor showed up with the drawings of the platform

但包商畫出來的平台草圖

about half the size that we had drawn it.

只有我們畫的一半大小。

KA: Sort of like the Spinal Tap scene where you get

科特：我猜就像我們在做脊椎穿刺時，

the tiny little Stonehenge, I guess?

看那些小東西都變得跟史前巨大石柱群一樣大的感覺吧？

(Laughter)

(笑聲)

DR: In fact, it was as if this was going to be window-washing scaffolding.

大衛：那變得好像是為了洗窗戶才搭的鷹架一樣，

There was no sense of the fact that this is next to Saint Paul --

在聖保羅教堂旁邊搭起這樣一個小平台，一點都不合理，

that this is really a place that needs to be kind of dignified,

這個地方應該是表達誠敬的地方，

and a place to reflect and remember.

要讓人緬懷親人和紀念的地方。

And I've got to say that we spent a lot of time

我得說我們花了很多時間

in putting this together, watching the crowds that gathered at Saint Paul --

把每件事拼湊起來，我們終於可以看著群眾

which is just to the right -- and moving around the site.

聚集在平台右側的聖保羅教堂，然後進入到平台上參觀。

And I live down there, so we spent a lot of time looking at the need.

由於我就住在附近，所以我花了很多時間觀察，

And I think people were amazed at two things --

我發現大家對二件事感到驚訝：

I think they were amazed at the destruction,

我認為大家對破壞的程度感到驚訝，

but I think there was a sense of disbelief

大家也開始懷疑我個人覺得很感人的

about the heroics of New Yorkers that I found very moving.

紐約式的英雄主義，

Just the sort of everyday heroics of New Yorkers.

就是我們一般日常所見的紐約人的英雄主義。

So we were in this meeting and the contractor literally said,

在我們開會的時候，包商說：

"I'm going to lock the door, because this developer

「我去把門鎖起來，因為開發商

will not agree to have you leave till you've signed off on this."

不會同意你們離開，除非你們在上面簽字同意。」

And we said, "Well, this is half the size,

我們回覆：「這只有一半大小，

it doesn't have any of the design features

也沒有任何我們當初同意的設計特色，

that have been agreed upon by everyone -- everyone in the city.

紐約市裡的每一個人都不會同意。

We'd have to go back to the beginning to do this."

我們最好再重頭來過。」

And I convinced him that we should leave the room

我後來說服他按照我們所設計的圖形，

with the agreement to build it as designed.

來搭建平台。

The next day I got an email from the developer

第二天，開發商寄了個郵件給我，

saying that he was withdrawing all funding.

說他要撤回所有資金。

So we didn't know what to do,

這下輪我們不知道該怎麼辦了，

but we decided to cast a very wide net.

但後來我們決定撒出一個大網，

We emailed out letters to as many people as we could --

儘可能地把郵件寄給我們認識的每一個人，

several people in the audience here -- who were very helpful.

在座應該也有人收到郵件，每一個人都很幫忙。

KA: There was no thought of abandoning ship at that point?

科特：那時沒有想到要放棄嗎？

DR: No. In fact I told the contractor to go ahead.

大衛：沒有，我還叫包商儘管如期施工，

He had already ordered materials based on my go-ahead.

所以他還依據指令訂了一大堆建材。

We knew that one way or another this was going to happen.

我們知道不管怎樣，一定要辦成這件事，

And we just felt it had to happen.

我們就是覺得這是我們的使命。

KA: You were funding it yourself and with contributions and this foundation.

科特：後來是你和基金會自己出錢出力，完成這個計畫。

Richard, I think very correctly,

我想理察在一開始

made the point at the beginning --

就指出一個問題，

before all the chair designers came out --

就是在那些座椅設計師出場之前，

about the history of chair designers imposing aesthetic solutions

他提到座椅設計師，向來針對平凡無奇的坐的需求，

on this kind of universal, banal, common problem of sitting.

提出特別強調美感的設計；

It seems to me with this,

但對我來說，

that it was the opposite of that.

你這個作品似乎完全和美感沾不上邊，

This was an unprecedented, singular design problem.

這可是個史無前例、很特別的設計問題啊。

DR: Well here's the issue:

大衛：嗯，是有這個問題沒錯，

we knew that this was not in the sense of --

我們知道這個作品談不上美感，

we think about the site, and think about the need for a memorial.

我們反覆思考這個遺址，考慮大家想要紀念親人的渴望，

It was important that this not be categorized as a memorial.

但最重要的是不要把這個作品當成是一種紀念建築，

That this was a place for people to reflect, to remember --

這是一個讓大家去反省、去記憶、

a kind of quiet place.

去沈思的地方。

So it led us to using design solutions

所以，我們運用的設計概念，

that created as few filters between the viewer --

是愈不要遮蔽掉景觀愈好，

as we said about the families' platform -- and the experience as possible.

就像我們所說的，這是給受難者家屬悼念亡者的平台。

It's all incredibly humble material.

我們儘量使用普通的材料，

It's scaffolding and plywood.

有鷹架和合板。

And it allows -- by sort of the procession of the movement,

當參觀人群來到這裡的時候，

up by Saint Paul's and down the other side --

他們可以從聖保羅教堂那裡上去，再從另一邊下來，

it gives you about 300 feet to go up 13 feet from the ground

長約90公尺的通道讓你上到約4公尺的高度，

to where you get the 360 degree view.

你可以在那上面看到360度全景。

But the design was driven by a need to be quick, cheap, safe, respectful, flexible.

整個設計的理念是要求快速、平價、安全、肅穆和彈性，

One of the other things is this is designed to be moveable.

另一個要求是這個平台必須是可以移動的。

Because when we looked at the four platforms around the site,

你可以看看在遺址週邊的四個平台，

one of which is an upgrade of the families' platform,

其中一個是由原先受難者家屬平台改建的，

we knew that these had to be moveable

我們瞭解這些平台必須要能移動，

to respond to changing conditions,

以適應未來可能的改變，

and the changing definition of what Ground Zero is.

也可以隨世貿遺址的定義而改變。

KA: Your work -- I mean, we've talked about this before --

科特：我們之前就談過這一點了，

a lot of your work, I think, is informed by your belief in, or your focus on

你的許多作品都傳達出你的信仰或是你所重視的信念，

the temporariness of all things and the evanescence of things,

也就是你認為每一件事都是短暫的，終究會消失的。

and a kind of "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die,"

就像是：「儘情地吃喝玩樂吧！反正明天就要死了！」

sort of sense of existence.

有點存在主義的味道。

This is clearly not a work for the ages.

這個作品很顯然不能長久保存，

You know, a couple of years this thing isn't going to be here.

或許幾年之後就不存在了。

Did that require, as an architect,

身為一個建築師，這是否意味著

a new way of thinking about what you were doing?

你必須以嶄新的思考模式來工作？

To think of it as this purely temporary installation?

把它純粹當作一個短暫的裝置來設計？

DR: No, I don't think so.

大衛：不，我不這麼想，

I think this is, obviously, substantially different

我認為這個作品本質上就和我們以往

from anything we'd ever thought about doing before, just by the nature of it.

所設計的作品截然不同，本質上就不同。

Where it overlaps with thoughts about our work in general is,

但一般說來，這個作品還是具有一些共通的特性，

number one -- the notion of collaboration as a sort of way to get things done.

第一，我們知道合作才能完成一件事，

And Kevin Kennon, Rick Scofidio, Liz Diller

而凱文．肯儂、瑞克．斯可菲迪爾、里茲．迪勒

and all the people within the city --

和整個城裡的人，

Norman Lear, who I spoke to four hours before our deadline for funding,

像是諾曼．李爾，我在增資截止前四個小時才和他進行談話，

offered to give us a bridge loan to help us get through it.

他願意提供我們一筆借款幫助我們渡過難關，

So the notion of collaboration --

所以我們知道合作...

I think this reinforces how important that is.

這更讓我們體會到其重要性。

And in terms of the temporary nature of it,

而這個作品具有短暫陳列的本質，

our goal was not to create something

所以我們的目標就是要打造一個

that would be there longer than it needed to be.

剛好能符合我們這種要求的平台。

I think what we were most interested in was promoting a kind of dialogue

我們最希望藉此讓人們產生一種對話，

that we felt may not have been happening enough in this city,

這種對話以往在這個城市裡並不多，

about what's really happening there.

我們想讓人們談談這裡到底發生了什麼事。

And a day or two before it opened was Giuliani's farewell address,

在這個平台開幕的前一、二天，朱利安尼剛好發表了他的卸任演說，

where he proposed the idea of all of Ground Zero being a memorial.

他在他的演說裡建議將世貿遺址保留做為一種紀念，

Which was very controversial, but it resonated with a lot of people.

這個提議其實引起很多爭論，但卻也讓大多數人產生共鳴。

And I think regardless of what the position is about how

我想，不管你對處理這一大片

this sacred piece of land is to be used,

恐怖攻擊的廢墟有何意見，

having it come out of actually seeing it in a real encounter,

把它呈現出來讓大家看到，

I think makes it a more powerful dialogue.

這本身就有十足的話題性，

And that's what we were interested in.

那正是我們真正感興趣的事。

So that, very much, is in the realm of things

這一向都是我

I've been interested in before.

極感興趣的領域。

KA: It seems to me, among other things, a lovely piece of civic infrastructure.

科特：對我來說，和其他作品相比，你的這個作品算是一件頗為雅緻的市政建設，

It enables that conversation to get serious.

可以讓人們產生嚴肅的對話。

And six months after the fact --

在911發生六個月之後，

and only a few months away from the site being cleaned --

也就是在遺址現場清理完成後的幾個月內，

we are very quickly, now, getting to the point

國內的人很快地就將焦點

where those conversations about what should go there are getting serious.

放在該在遺址上放些什麼東西這件事上，

Do you have -- having been as physically involved in the site

既然你親身參與了打造平台這個計畫，

as you have been doing this project -- have any ideas about

你對於該放什麼，或不該放什麼，

what should or shouldn't be done?

有沒有什麼看法？

DR: Well, I think one thing that shouldn't be done is evaluate --

大衛：嗯，我認為一件不該做的事，就是妄下評論。

I think right now the discussion is a very closed discussion on the master plan.

我認為現在大家都只專注於討論遺址上該建什麼，

The Protetch Gallery recently had a show on ideas for buildings,

普德施藝廊最近展出了各種建築理念，

which had some sort of inventive ideas of buildings.

對於激發我們對建築的想法很有幫助。

KA: But it had some really terrible ideas.

科特：裡面有些理念很嚇人哩...

DR: And it also felt a little bit like a kind of competition of ideas,

大衛：這有點像是各種理念的競賽，

where I think the focus of ideas should be on master planning and uses.

但我認為這些理念的重點是在整體規劃及其用途，

And I think there should be a broader -- which there's starting to be --

而且應該要更為廣泛，現在已經開始有這種趨勢了。

the dialogue is really opening up to,

目前人們討論的重點，

what does this site really want to be?

應該放在我們想要這個遺址成為什麼樣子？

And I truly believe until the issue of memorial is sorted out,

我相信在紀念性這個問題解決之前，

that it's going to be very hard to have an intelligent discussion.

要產生一些明智的討論是很難的。

There's a few discussions right now that I think are very positive,

現在有一些我認為還算積極正面的討論，

about depressing the West Side Highway and connecting this over,

就是把西側公路的流量降低，從這裡連接過去，

so that there's one uninterrupted piece of land.

這樣這一塊區域就不會受到干擾了。

KA: Well, I think that's interesting.

科特：嗯，我覺得還滿有趣的。

And it gets to another issue that was probably inappropriate

現在我想談談另一個話題，這個話題在六個月之前

to discuss six months ago, but perhaps isn't now,

或許還不適合談論，現在也不一定適合，

which is, not many of us love the World Trade Center as a piece of architecture,

就是有關於原先的世貿中心，很多人並不喜歡

as what it had done to this city and that huge plaza.

世貿中心對這個城市景觀所造成的影響，他們太過高大了。

Is this an opportunity, is the silver lining --

我們現在是否有機會，有一線曙光的機會，

a silver lining, here -- to rebuild

就算一點點機會也好，

some more traditional city grid, or not?

將遺址重建為更為傳統的城市建築？

DR: I think there's a real opportunity to engage

大衛：我認為現在的機會正適合

in a discussion of why we live in cities.

大家重新思考我們居住在城市裡的理由，

And why do we live in places where such dissimilar people

思考為什麼我們要和一群完全不相像的人

collide up against us each day?

住在一起，每天互相衝突、碰撞？

I don't think it has much to do with 50 or 60 or 70 or 80 thousand new office spaces,

我認為這和這棟新建築裡可容納5、6、7或8萬坪的辦公空間沒什麼關係，

regardless of what the number is.

不管有多少空間都和這個沒有關係。

So yeah, I think there is a chance to re-look at how we think about cities.

對，我確實認為這是我們重新思考城市地位的機會。

And in fact, there's a proposal on the table now for building number seven.

事實上，現在有已經有人提出計畫，要改建第七棟建築。

KA: Which was the building just north of the Towers?

科特：就是在世貿中心北面的那一棟建築？

DR: Right, which the towers fell into.

大衛：對，倒下來的大樓剛好壓在它的上面，

And the reason that's been held up is essentially by community outrage

而它被首先提出來要求改建的原因，是因為區民受不了

that they're not re-opening the street

市政府不重新開放

to connect that back to the rest of the city.

對外連接的街道。

I think a public dialogue -- I think, you know,

所以我認為公開的討論，你知道我的意思吧？

I'd like to see an international competition,

我希望能看到國際性的競標，

and a call for ideas for uses.

提出各種實用的方案。

KA: Whether it's arts, whether it's housing,

科特：不管是藝術品、住宅

whether it's what amount of shopping?

或是大型商場都可以嗎？

DR: Right. And we're looking for other things.

大衛：對，我們還想看到其他的型式，

This small foundation we put together is looking for other ways to help.

我們成立的這個小型的基金會，就是要提供其他方式的協助，

Including taking a small piece adjacent to the site

包括我們會在遺址附近找一塊小型土地，

and inviting 10 architects who currently don't have a voice

邀請十位目前在紐約還沒沒無名的建築師，

in New York to do artist housing.

在這裡蓋藝術村。

And find other ways to encourage the discussion

還有用其他的方式激發不同的討論，

to be against sort of monolithic, single solutions,

來對抗一言堂或是單一解決方案，

and more about a multiplicity of things.

我們想要納入更多元的元素。

KA: Before we end, I know you have a piece of digital video

科特：在我們結束之前，你好像有一段關於

of the experience of being on this platform?

平台的影片要播放，是嗎？

DR: John Kamen -- who's here, actually -- put together

大衛：約翰．卡門今天在現場，是他剪輯了這段

a two and a half minute piece that shows the platform in use.

2分半鐘的影片，影片是有關平台目前的使用狀況。

So I thought that would be good to end with.

我覺得用這段影片來做結尾很棒。

DR: We're looking from Fulton Street, west.

大衛：我們現在是從富爾頓街往西邊看，

One of the tricky issues we had with the Giuliani administration

我們和朱利安尼團隊一起工作時，有一個很有意思的問題，

was I had forgotten how anti-graffiti he was.

就是我們都忘了之前朱利安尼有多麼討厭街頭塗鴉，

And essentially our structure was designed to be written on.

但我們的設計就是要讓人們在上面寫字的。

KA: As you say, it's not a memorial.

科特：就像你說的，這不是一個紀念館，

But were you conscious of memorials? The Vietnam Memorial?

但你們有考慮過要蓋紀念館嗎？像是越戰紀念館？

Those kinds of forms?

這一類型的東西？

DR: We certainly did as much research as we could,

大衛：我們確實在這方面做了許多研究，

and we were conscious of other memorials.

我們也參考了其他許多紀念館或紀念碑，

And also the complexity and length of time they really take to do.

瞭解其構造的複雜度及所需的施工期間。

It's 350 people on the committee for Oklahoma City,

奧克拉荷馬市的委員會是由350位委員所組成，

which is why we thought of this as a sort of ad-hoc, spontaneous solution

因此我們才將這個作品視為自發性的作品，

that expanded on Union Square

從聯合廣場延伸出來，

and the places that were ad-hoc memorials in the city already.

這樣就已經是一種特別的紀念型式。

The scaffolding you can see built up over the street is de-mountable.

現在你看到架在街上的鷹架是可以拆除的，

What's interesting now is the nature of the site has totally changed,

有趣的是遺址的本質已徹底改變了，

so that what you're aware of

所以你現在所看到的，

is not just the destruction of the buildings in Ground Zero,

已經不再是單純的大廈倒塌後的廢墟，

but all of the buildings around it --

而是廢墟週遭的大樓，

and the scars on the building around it, which are enormous.

他們身上留有許多傷痕，都是些巨大的傷痕。

This shows Saint Paul's on the left.

這是左側的聖保羅教堂。

KA: I just want to thank you on behalf of New Yorkers

科特：我想謝謝你為紐約居民

for making this happen and getting this done.

搭建了這個平台，讓這一切得以實現。

But the kind of virtually instantaneous nature of its erection,

這個平台的本質本來就是短暫的，

and its being there,

在你還來不及相信以前，

almost before you could believe

它已產生了存在的意義，

that a response of this magnitude could be accomplished,

大家對於能完成這麼巨大的作品，

is part of its extraordinary --

反應都是非比尋常，

I don't know if beauty is the word --

我不知道是否能用「美麗」這個詞--

but presence.

但似乎恰如其份。

DR: It was an honor to do.

大衛：打造這個平台是我們的榮耀，

And we were thrilled to be able to show it here.

能在這裡展示給各位，我們的心情都很激動。