Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists | Andrew Marantz

翻译人员: psjmz mz 校对人员: Lipeng Chen

I spent the past three years

我花了三年的时间

talking to some of the worst people on the internet.

在互联网上与一些最糟糕的人交谈。

Now, if you've been online recently,

如果你最近有上网，

you may have noticed that there's a lot of toxic garbage out there:

你可能注意到网上 有大量的有害信息：

racist memes, misogynist propaganda, viral misinformation.

种族主义表情包，厌恶女性的宣传， 病毒式的错误信息。

So I wanted to know who was making this stuff.

我想要知道是谁制造了这些东西。

I wanted to understand how they were spreading it.

我想要理解他们如何传播它们。

最终，我想要知道

Ultimately, I wanted to know

它们会对我们的社会造成了怎样的影响。

what kind of impact it might be having on our society.

所以在 2016 年，我开始追踪 其中一些表情包的源头，

So in 2016, I started tracing some of these memes back to their source,

back to the people who were making them or who were making them go viral.

回到制造它们或令它们 病毒式传播的人那里，

I'd approach those people and say,

我接近那些人说，

“嘿，我是记者， 我可以来看看你做什么吗？”

"Hey, I'm a journalist. Can I come watch you do what you do?"

通常我得到的回应是，

Now, often the response would be,

"Why in hell would I want to talk to

“我到底为什么要和一个

支持民主党的、住在布鲁克林的

some low-t soy-boy Brooklyn globalist Jew cuck

who's in cahoots with the Democrat Party?"

全球主义犹太佬交谈？”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

To which my response would be, "Look, man, that's only 57 percent true."

对此我的回应是，“瞧，伙计， 这只有 57% 是真的。”

(Laughter)

（笑声）

But often I got the opposite response.

但常常我也得到相反的回应。

"Yeah, sure, come on by."

“好的，当然，来吧。”

So that's how I ended up in the living room

于是我出现在了

of a social media propagandist in Southern California.

一个住在南加州的 社交媒体推手的客厅里。

He was a married white guy in his late 30s.

他是一个 30 多岁的已婚白人。

He had a table in front of him with a mug of coffee,

他面前是一张桌子， 桌子上放着咖啡，

a laptop for tweeting,

一台用来发推特的笔记本电脑，

a phone for texting

一台发短信的手机

and an iPad for livestreaming to Periscope and YouTube.

和一台用来在 Periscope 和 YouTube 上直播的iPad。

That was it.

就这些了。

And yet, with those tools,

然而，通过这些工具，

he was able to propel his fringe, noxious talking points

他能够将他那些边缘的、有害的谈资

into the heart of the American conversation.

推进到美国人交谈的中心。

For example, one of the days I was there,

比如，我在那的某个日子，

a bomb had just exploded in New York,

一个炸弹刚好在纽约爆炸，

and the guy accused of planting the bomb had a Muslim-sounding name.

而被指控安置炸弹的人 有一个穆斯林名字。

Now, to the propagandist in California, this seemed like an opportunity,

对这个加州的社交推手来说， 这似乎是个机会，

because one of the things he wanted

因为他想要

was for the US to cut off almost all immigration,

让美国切断几乎所有的移民，

especially from Muslim-majority countries.

尤其是来自穆斯林国家的移民。

So he started livestreaming,

于是他开始直播，

getting his followers worked up into a frenzy

让他的追随者们对开放边界的议程

about how the open borders agenda was going to kill us all

将如何杀死我们所有人感到愤怒，

and asking them to tweet about this,

并要求他们在推特上谈论此事，

and use specific hashtags,

使用特定的话题标签，

trying to get those hashtags trending.

试图上推特话题热门。

And tweet they did --

他们发了很多推文——

hundreds and hundreds of tweets,

成百上千，

a lot of them featuring images like this one.

很多都带着像这样的图片。

So that's George Soros.

这是乔治·索罗斯。

他是匈牙利裔的亿万富翁和慈善家，

He's a Hungarian billionaire and philanthropist,

and in the minds of some conspiracists online,

在一些网上阴谋家看来，

George Soros is like a globalist bogeyman,

乔治·索罗斯就像一个全球主义者，

one of a few elites who is secretly manipulating all of global affairs.

秘密操纵全球事务的精英之一。

Now, just to pause here: if this idea sounds familiar to you,

这里暂停一下： 如果这个你听起来熟悉，

that there are a few elites who control the world

有少数精英控制全球，

and a lot of them happen to be rich Jews,

并且很多人碰巧是有钱的犹太人，

that's because it is one of the most anti-Semitic tropes in existence.

因为它是现存最反犹太人的比喻之一。

I should also mention that the guy in New York who planted that bomb,

我还要提一下在纽约埋下炸弹的人，

he was an American citizen.

他是一个美国公民。

So whatever else was going on there,

所以不管发生了什么，

immigration was not the main issue.

移民并非主要问题。

And the propagandist in California, he understood all this.

而这位加州推手，他知道所有这些。

He was a well-read guy. He was actually a lawyer.

他是个博览群书的人， 他其实是个律师。

He knew the underlying facts,

他知道基本事实，

but he also knew that facts do not drive conversation online.

但他也知道事实 不能推动网上的对话，

What drives conversation online

驱动网上对话的

is emotion.

是情绪。

See, the original premise of social media

社交媒体的最初愿景是

把我们连接在一起，

was that it was going to bring us all together,

make the world more open and tolerant and fair ...

让世界变得更开放，宽容和平等……

它确实有这方面的作用。

And it did some of that.

But the social media algorithms have never been built

但社交媒体的算法却没被打造成

to distinguish between what's true or false,

可以区分真和假，

what's good or bad for society, what's prosocial and what's antisocial.

对社会好还是坏，什么是 亲社会和什么反社会。

That's just not what those algorithms do.

这些内容，算法都没有涉及到。

A lot of what they do is measure engagement:

他们做的很多事情只是评估互动：

clicks, comments, shares, retweets, that kind of thing.

点击、评论、分享、 转发之类的事情。

And if you want your content to get engagement,

如果你要让你的内容获得互动，

it has to spark emotion,

它就得散播情绪，

specifically, what behavioral scientists call "high-arousal emotion."

具体来说，就是行为科学家 所说的那种“高唤醒情绪”。

Now, "high arousal" doesn't only mean sexual arousal,

“高唤醒”不只是性唤起的意思，

although it's the internet, obviously that works.

虽然是在互联网上，但显然这是可行的。

It means anything, positive or negative, that gets people's hearts pumping.

它意味着任何事情，积极的 或消极的，让人们心脏加速跳动的。

So I would sit with these propagandists,

所以我和这些推手坐在一起，

not just the guy in California, but dozens of them,

不只是加州这个伙计， 还有其他很多人，

我看着他们一次又一次地 成功做这些事情，

and I would watch as they did this again and again successfully,

not because they were Russian hackers, not because they were tech prodigies,

并非因为他们是俄罗斯黑客， 并非因为他们是科技神童，

not because they had unique political insights --

并非因为他们有独特的政治洞察——

just because they understood how social media worked,

只是因为他们理解 社交媒体的运行方式，

and they were willing to exploit it to their advantage.

并且他们愿意为他们的利益利用它。

Now, at first I was able to tell myself this was a fringe phenomenon,

一开始我告诉自己这是个边缘现象，

这种跟互联网有关的东西。

something that was relegated to the internet.

But there's really no separation anymore between the internet and everything else.

但互联网和其他东西没有任何区别。

This is an ad that ran on multiple TV stations

这是一则在 2018 年国会选举期间

during the 2018 congressional elections,

在多家电视台播放的广告，

alleging with very little evidence that one of the candidates

基本没有证据的指控， 其中一名候选人

was in the pocket of international manipulator George Soros,

受到了国际金融操纵者 乔治·索罗斯的操控，

who is awkwardly photoshopped here next to stacks of cash.

他被 PS 到了成堆的现金旁边。

This is a tweet from the President of the United States,

这是一个来自美国总统的推特，

alleging, again with no evidence,

同样没有证据的指控，

that American politics is being manipulated by George Soros.

美国政治被乔治·索罗斯操纵。

This stuff that once seemed so shocking and marginal and, frankly, just ignorable,

这些东西看起来那么令人震惊却微不足道， 坦白地说，简直是可以忽略不计，

it's now so normalized that we hardly even notice it.

它现在是如此的平常化， 以至于我们几乎没有注意到它。

So I spent about three years in this world.

于是我在这个世界花了三年的时间。

I talked to a lot of people.

我跟很多人交谈过。

Some of them seemed to have no core beliefs at all.

他们中有些人似乎根本没有核心信仰。

They just seemed to be betting, perfectly rationally,

他们只是在完全理性地下注，

that if they wanted to make some money online

如果他们想在网上赚钱

或获得关注，

or get some attention online,

他们就应该尽可能地离谱。

they should just be as outrageous as possible.

But I talked to other people who were true ideologues.

但我也和其他真正 的意识形态拥护者谈过。

And to be clear, their ideology was not traditional conservatism.

需要明确的是，他们的意识形态 不是传统的保守主义。

These were people who wanted to revoke female suffrage.

这些人想要废除女性选举权。

These were people who wanted to go back to racial segregation.

这些人想要回到种族隔离时代。

Some of them wanted to do away with democracy altogether.

他们中的一些人想彻底废除民主。

Now, obviously these people were not born believing these things.

很明显，这些人并不是生来 就相信这些事情的。

他们不是小学的时候就学习这些。

They didn't pick them up in elementary school.

A lot of them, before they went down some internet rabbit hole,

他们中的很多人， 在他们掉进网络的泥潭前，

they had been libertarian or they had been socialist

他们要么是自由主义者， 要么是社会主义者，

要么是完全不同的人。

or they had been something else entirely.

那么到底发生了什么？

So what was going on?

Well, I can't generalize about every case,

我不能对每个案例一概而论，

但很多我交谈过的人，

but a lot of the people I spoke to,

they seem to have a combination of a high IQ and a low EQ.

他们似乎是高智商和 低情商的结合体。

They seem to take comfort in anonymous, online spaces

他们似乎对匿名 和在线空间感到更舒服，

rather than connecting in the real world.

而非在现实世界中的连接。

So often they would retreat to these message boards

他们经常会回到这些留言板

or these subreddits,

或子版块上，

where their worst impulses would be magnified.

在那里，他们糟糕的冲动会被放大。

They might start out saying something just as a sick joke,

他们可能一开始说的 只是个恶心的笑话，

and then they would get so much positive reinforcement for that joke,

然后他们因为这个笑话 而得到很多积极的支持，

正如他们所说的， 这么多毫无意义的“互联网观点”，

so many meaningless "internet points," as they called it,

that they might start believing their own joke.

他们可能会开始相信自己的笑话。

I talked a lot with one young woman who grew up in New Jersey,

我跟一个成长在新泽西的 年轻姑娘聊过很多，

and then after high school, she moved to a new place

在她高中毕业后，她搬到新地方

并突然感到被疏远，

and suddenly she just felt alienated and cut off

开始迷失在手机里。

and started retreating into her phone.

She found some of these spaces on the internet

她发现互联网上有一些空间，

where people would post the most shocking, heinous things.

人们在那里发表一些最令人震惊、 最令人发指的内容。

And she found this stuff really off-putting

她觉得这些东西很讨厌，

but also kind of engrossing,

但也很吸引人，

kind of like she couldn't look away from it.

很难把视线从它们身上移开。

She started interacting with people in these online spaces,

她开始与这些线上空间的人交流，

她觉得这些人很聪明，他们被认可了。

and they made her feel smart, they made her feel validated.

She started feeling a sense of community,

她开始体会到社区的温暖，

开始怀疑这些令人震惊的表情包中

started wondering if maybe some of these shocking memes

可能包含着真理。

might actually contain a kernel of truth.

A few months later, she was in a car with some of her new internet friends

几个月后，她跟她认识的 几个新网友一起坐车

headed to Charlottesville, Virginia,

前往弗吉尼亚州的夏洛茨维尔，

to march with torches in the name of the white race.

以白种人的名义举着火炬游行。

She'd gone, in a few months, from Obama supporter

几个月的时间， 她就从奥巴马的支持者

to fully radicalized white supremacist.

变成了激进的白人至上主义者。

Now, in her particular case,

对于这种情况，

she actually was able to find her way out of the cult of white supremacy.

她实际上能找到自己的方式 来摆脱白人至上的崇拜。

But a lot of the people I spoke to were not.

但很多与我交谈的人不能。

And just to be clear:

说得更明白些：

I was never so convinced that I had to find common ground

我从未如此确信我必须

with every single person I spoke to

与每一个我愿意说这句话的人

that I was willing to say,

找到共同点，

"You know what, man, you're a fascist propagandist, I'm not,

“你知道吗，伙计， 你是法西斯拥护者，我不是，

whatever, let's just hug it out, all our differences will melt away."

不管怎样，让我们拥抱彼此吧， 我们所有的分歧都会消失。”

不，绝对不会。

No, absolutely not.

But I did become convinced that we cannot just look away from this stuff.

但我的确变得确信， 我们不能无视这些东西。

We have to try to understand it, because only by understanding it

我们必须试图理解它， 因为只有通过理解它，

can we even start to inoculate ourselves against it.

我们才能开始预防它。

In my three years in this world, I got a few nasty phone calls,

在这个世界的三年时间中， 我接到过一些让人不快的电话，

even some threats,

甚至有些是威胁，

but it wasn't a fraction of what female journalists get on this beat.

但跟女记者收到的威胁相比 算是小巫见大巫了。

And yeah, I am Jewish,

是的，我是犹太人，

although, weirdly, a lot of the Nazis couldn't tell I was Jewish,

不过奇怪的是，很多纳粹分子 看不出我是犹太人，

which I frankly just found kind of disappointing.

坦白说这让我有点失望。

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Seriously, like, your whole job is being a professional anti-Semite.

说真的，你的工作就是 一个专业的反犹份子。

Nothing about me is tipping you off at all?

我就没有表露一丁点这种特征？

Nothing?

一点都没有？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

This is not a secret.

这并不是个秘密。

My name is Andrew Marantz, I write for "The New Yorker,"

我叫安德鲁·马兰兹， 为《纽约客》撰稿，

my personality type is like if a Seinfeld episode

我的性格类型就像《宋飞正传》里面

was taped at the Park Slope Food Coop.

在公园坡的食品店里录制的那一集。

Nothing?

一点都没有？

(Laughter)

（笑声）

Anyway, look -- ultimately, it would be nice

不管怎样，最终，如果有一个

if there were, like, a simple formula:

简单的公式就好了：

smartphone plus alienated kid equals 12 percent chance of Nazi.

智能手机加上被疏远的孩子 等于 12% 的纳粹几率。

It's obviously not that simple.

这当然不是那样简单。

And in my writing,

在我的文章中，

I'm much more comfortable being descriptive, not prescriptive.

我更喜欢用描述性的， 而不是指令性的字眼。

But this is TED,

但这是 TED，

so let's get practical.

所以让我们实际点。

I want to share a few suggestions

我想要分享几点能让

of things that citizens of the internet like you and I

像你和我这样的互联网公民去做的

might be able to do to make things a little bit less toxic.

能够让事情变得不那么 糟糕的建议。

So the first one is to be a smart skeptic.

首先，要做一个聪明的怀疑论者。

So, I think there are two kinds of skepticism.

我认为有两种怀疑论。

And I don't want to drown you in technical epistemological information here,

我不想让你们沉浸在 技术认识论信息中，

but I call them smart and dumb skepticism.

但我把它们称为 聪明和愚蠢的怀疑主义。

So, smart skepticism:

聪明的怀疑者是：

thinking for yourself,

独立思考，

questioning every claim,

怀疑任何宣称，

demanding evidence --

要求证据——

great, that's real skepticism.

很好，这是真正的怀疑。

Dumb skepticism: it sounds like skepticism,

愚蠢的怀疑者：听起来像怀疑，

but it's actually closer to knee-jerk contrarianism.

但实际上它更接近于 下意识的逆向抬杠。

Everyone says the earth is round,

人人都说地球是圆的，

you say it's flat.

你说它是平的。

Everyone says racism is bad,

人人都说种族主义不好，

you say, "I dunno, I'm skeptical about that."

你说，“我不知道，我对此表示怀疑。”

I cannot tell you how many young white men I have spoken to in the last few years

我无法告诉你，在过去 5 年中 我聊过的人中有多少年轻白人

who have said,

说过，

"You know, the media, my teachers, they're all trying to indoctrinate me

“媒体，我的老师， 他们都试图向我灌输相信

男性特权和白人特权的观念，

into believing in male privilege and white privilege,

but I don't know about that, man, I don't think so."

但我不知道，我不这么认为。”

Guys -- contrarian white teens of the world --

伙计们——世界上叛逆 的白人青少年——

look:

这么说吧：

if you are being a round earth skeptic and a male privilege skeptic

如果你质疑地球不是圆的， 质疑男性至上这种说法是错的，

and a racism is bad skeptic,

或是质疑种族主义是不对的，

you're not being a skeptic, you're being a jerk.

你不是怀疑论者，你是个混蛋。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

It's great to be independent-minded, we all should be independent-minded,

有独立的思想很好， 我们都应该有独立的思想，

but just be smart about it.

但要对此足够智慧。

So this next one is about free speech.

下一个是关于言论自由。

You will hear smart, accomplished people who will say, "Well, I'm pro-free speech,"

你会听到聪明，有成就的人说： “我支持言论自由，”

and they say it in this way that it's like they're settling a debate,

他们这样说，就像他们 在终结一场辩论，

when actually, that is the very beginning of any meaningful conversation.

实际上，这是任何有意义的对话的开始。

All the interesting stuff happens after that point.

所有有趣的事情都发生在这个观点后。

OK, you're pro-free speech. What does that mean?

好的，你支持言论自由，那意味着啥？

Does it mean that David Duke and Richard Spencer

这意味着大卫·杜克和理查德·斯宾塞

need to have active Twitter accounts?

必须得激活推特账号吗？

Does it mean that anyone can harass anyone else online

这意味着每个人都可因任何理由

for any reason?

在网上攻击别人吗？

You know, I looked through the entire list of TED speakers this year.

我看了今年 TED 所有的演讲者清单。

我并没有发现一个人怀疑地球是圆的。

I didn't find a single round earth skeptic.

这违反了言论自由的准则吗？

Is that a violation of free speech norms?

Look, we're all pro-free speech, it's wonderful to be pro-free speech,

我们都是言论自由的支持者， 支持言论自由很好，

but if that's all you know how to say again and again,

但如果你知道只是 一次又一次地重复这句话，

you're standing in the way of a more productive conversation.

你就阻碍了一次更有成效的谈话。

Making decency cool again, so ...

让体面再次变酷，所以……

Great!

很棒！

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

Yeah. I don't even need to explain it.

是的，我甚至都不需要解释它。

So in my research, I would go to Reddit or YouTube or Facebook,

在我的研究中，我会去 Reddit、 YouTube 或 Facebook，

and I would search for "sharia law"

搜索“古兰经”，

or I would search for "the Holocaust,"

或是“反犹大屠杀”，

and you might be able to guess what the algorithms showed me, right?

你们可能能够猜到算法 会向我展示啥，是吧？

"Is sharia law sweeping across the United States?"

“可兰经正在席卷美国吗？”

"Did the Holocaust really happen?"

“反犹大屠杀真的发生过吗？”

Dumb skepticism.

愚蠢的怀疑主义。

So we've ended up in this bizarre dynamic online,

于是我们就陷入了 这种奇怪的网络动态，

where some people see bigoted propaganda

有些人把看到的偏执的宣传

as being edgy or being dangerous and cool,

看作是很新潮的、或是危险但又很酷的，

and people see basic truth and human decency as pearl-clutching

人们反而觉得基本的真理 和人类的尊严有些令人感到震惊，

or virtue-signaling or just boring.

或是有些圣母，或是无聊的。

And the social media algorithms, whether intentionally or not,

社交媒体算法，不管是有意还是无意，

they have incentivized this,

一直都在火上浇油，

because bigoted propaganda is great for engagement.

因为偏执的煽动对于互动很有帮助。

Everyone clicks on it, everyone comments on it,

每个人都点击它，每个人都评论它，

whether they love it or they hate it.

不管他们爱它还是讨厌它。

So the number one thing that has to happen here

所以当务之急就是，

is social networks need to fix their platforms.

社交网络需要修复它们的平台。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

So if you're listening to my voice and you work at a social media company

那么，如果你在听我的演讲， 你在社交媒体公司工作，

or you invest in one or, I don't know, own one,

或你投资了一家，或者拥有一家，

this tip is for you.

这条建议是给你的。

If you have been optimizing for maximum emotional engagement

如果你一直在优化 以实现最大化情感式的互动，

and maximum emotional engagement turns out to be actively harming the world,

而最大化的情感式互动实际上 正在伤害着这个世界，

it's time to optimize for something else.

是时候以其他事情为优化目标了。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）

But in addition to putting pressure on them to do that

但除了向社交平台施加压力

and waiting for them and hoping that they'll do that,

并等待和希望他们会行动之外，

there's some stuff that the rest of us can do, too.

有一些事情其他人也可以去做。

So, we can create some better pathways or suggest some better pathways

这样，我们就能够创造一些更好的途径， 或者找到一些更好的途径，

for angsty teens to go down.

减少青少年中的焦虑情绪。

If you see something that you think is really creative and thoughtful

如果你看到一些你认为真的 有创意和有思想的东西，

并且你想要分享那个东西， 你就可以分享，

and you want to share that thing, you can share that thing,

即使它没有让你充满高度兴奋的情绪。

even if it's not flooding you with high arousal emotion.

我发现那真是很小的一步，

Now that is a very small step, I realize,

但总的来说，这些东西真的很重要，

but in the aggregate, this stuff does matter,

because these algorithms, as powerful as they are,

因为这些算法本身非常强大，

they are taking their behavioral cues from us.

它们会从我们身上获取行为线索。

So let me leave you with this.

我还想告诉大家，

You know, a few years ago it was really fashionable

几年前，非常时尚的说法是

to say that the internet was a revolutionary tool

互联网是革命性的工具，

that was going to bring us all together.

将会把我们聚在一起。

It's now more fashionable to say

如今更时尚的说法是

that the internet is a huge, irredeemable dumpster fire.

互联网是一场不可挽回的垃圾箱火灾。

Neither caricature is really true.

两种说法都不完全正确。

We know the internet is just too vast and complex

我们知道互联网太大太复杂，

to be all good or all bad.

以至于不可能是全好或全不好的。

And the danger with these ways of thinking,

这种思考方式的危险在于，

whether it's the utopian view that the internet will inevitably save us

无论是乌托邦的观点—— 互联网将不可避免地拯救我们，

or the dystopian view that it will inevitably destroy us,

还是反乌托邦式的观点—— 互联网将不可避免地摧毁我们，

either way, we're letting ourselves off the hook.

不管怎样，我们要让自己摆脱困境。

There is nothing inevitable about our future.

我们的未来没有什么是不可避免的。

The internet is made of people.

互联网由人组成。

People make decisions at social media companies.

是人们在社交媒体公司中做决定。

People make hashtags trend or not trend.

是人们让话题标签热门或不热门。

People make societies progress or regress.

是人们让社会进步或退步。

When we internalize that fact,

当我们内化这个事实时，

we can stop waiting for some inevitable future to arrive

就不会坐以待毙，

and actually get to work now.

现在就开始着手应对。

You know, we've all been taught that the arc of the moral universe is long

我们都被教育过人类的道德轨迹绵长，

但它终归正义。

but that it bends toward justice.

Maybe.

也许。

Maybe it will.

也许会的。

But that has always been an aspiration.

但这一直是一个愿望。

It is not a guarantee.

它不是个保证。

The arc doesn't bend itself.

道德轨迹并不会自己转向。

It's not bent inevitably by some mysterious force.

它不会被某种神秘力量改变轨迹。

The real truth,

真正的事实，

which is scarier and also more liberating,

有些可怕但也更加令人舒心，

is that we bend it.

是我们能够改变它。

Thank you.

谢谢。

(Applause)

（鼓掌）